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[m_shortpants]

It's always had holes.

Bending is genetic, we've known that. But how do you learn something like bending anyway? Because then wouldn't a firebender just be able to go to a badger mole and learn how to earth bend too?

Ah, who cares, its a fantasy story.

 

[Veelk]

It's always had holes.

Bending is genetic, we've known that. But how do you learn something like bending anyway? Because then wouldn't a firebender just be able to go to a badger mole and learn how to earth bend too?

Ah, who cares, its a fantasy story.

That's not a hole. Except for the avatar, people can only learn one type of bending. Benders can still learn form other benders, so if a firebender observed a badgermole, he'd likely develop a unique earth style of firebending, but could not learn earthbending itself.

A hole is a contradiction, where two things cannot be true at the same time, but the story insists they are. And merely being a fantasy story doesn't excuse it from trying to avoid them.

 

[JadedWriter]

That's not a hole. Except for the avatar, people can only learn one type of bending. Benders can still learn form other benders, so if a firebender observed a badgermole, he'd likely develop a unique earth style of firebending, but could not learn earthbending itself.

A hole is a contradiction, where two things cannot be true at the same time, but the story insists they are. And merely being a fantasy story doesn't excuse it from trying to avoid them.

I do wish they expanded on that more. Iroh learned lightning redirection from studying water benders. Imagine if he studied air benders and learned some crazy shit like fire tornadoes.

 

[Kinvara]

The ability to bend is genetic/inherited.

But the art of bending is something that must be learned. People learned the proper movements from animals/moon.

Edit: hm....according to the wiki, the lion turtles liked to hang around the element they were associated with. The water one liked to submerge itself, the earth one liked to dig into the earth, which might suggest bending, but doesn't necessarily confirm it....but then the air one liked to fly. It's kind of hard to explain that as anything but airbending, so....it must be that the lion turtles took the bending away from the other creatures for the explanation to work.

Why would the lion-turtles have had to have taken bending from those animals?

Maybe the lion-turtles gave those animals bending in the first place.

 

[Veelk]

I do wish they expanded on that more. Iroh learned lightning redirection from studying water benders. Imagine if he studied air benders and learned some crazy shit like fire tornadoes.

Well, that's another thing we can thank Legend of Korra for. Mixing bending is now just a genetic/behavioral disposition. You don't have to learn how to mix earth and fire to make lava, you just have to have it 'in you'.

Why would the lion-turtles have had to have taken bending from those animals?

Maybe the lion-turtles gave those animals bending in the first place.

I don't know. I don't know why Lion Turtles bother doing anything they do anymore. They give out bending like it's free candy to anyone that asks. Why wouldn't they take it from other animals. And by 'take' I mean they pirated it from them, since the badger moles and sky bisons can obviously still bend. It's more like they just copied the ability, and then copied it for others.

But if they gave the animals the bending, then a contradiction arises from TLA where the animals are described as the original benders, when that's clearly the lion turtles. Both can't be right in that way, so the only way I can see that reconciles both is that lion turtles took it. Otherwise, the TLA group just has to be wrong for some reason.

 

[Icyflamez96]

edit: oh wait nvm

 

[Kinvara]

Well, that's another thing we can thank Legend of Korra for. Mixing bending is now just a genetic/behavioral disposition. You don't have to learn how to mix earth and fire to make lava, you just have to have it 'in you'.



I don't know. I don't know why Lion Turtles bother doing anything they do anymore. They give out bending like it's free candy to anyone that asks. Why wouldn't they take it from other animals. And by 'take' I mean they pirated it from them, since the badger moles and sky bisons can still bend. It's more like they just copied the ability, and then copied it for others.

But if they gave the animals the bending, then a contradiction arises from TLA where they are described as the original benders, when that's clearly the lion turtles. Both can't be right in that way, so the only way I can see that reconciles both is that lion turtles took it. That or the characters from TLA were just wrong for no given reason.

The lion turtles are the spiritual/physical embodiments of the elements.

The animals actually perform the martial art of bending which is why they're referred to as the original benders.

 

[Veelk]

The lion turtles are the spiritual/physical embodiments of the elements.

The animals actually perform the martial art of bending which is why they're referred to as the original benders.

As I said in my edit, I'd buy that...if it were not for the air turtle clearly airbending. They're benders. It's not that they can't also be those things you mentioned, but they are clearly bending. Thus the original benders. Maybe the humans learned techniques from animals, but that doesn't make them not benders.

 

[Infinite Justice]

Well, that's another thing we can thank Legend of Korra for. Mixing bending is now just a genetic/behavioral disposition. You don't have to learn how to mix earth and fire to make lava, you just have to have it 'in you'.



I don't know. I don't know why Lion Turtles bother doing anything they do anymore. They give out bending like it's free candy to anyone that asks. Why wouldn't they take it from other animals. And by 'take' I mean they pirated it from them, since the badger moles and sky bisons can obviously still bend. It's more like they just copied the ability, and then copied it for others.

But if they gave the animals the bending, then a contradiction arises from TLA where the animals are described as the original benders, when that's clearly the lion turtles. Both can't be right in that way, so the only way I can see that reconciles both is that lion turtles took it. Otherwise, the TLA group just has to be wrong for some reason.

Its stuff like this which makes me wonder why people think Beginnings were good episodes.

Felt more like a 2 episode justification of the bullshit DEM Aang got in the finale of TLA (which he also embodied in the ending of LOK season 1 LOLOL) and also the whole Raava/Vaatu thing.

 

[360pages]

Its stuff like this which makes me wonder why people think Beginnings were good episodes.

Felt more like a 2 episode justification of the bullshit DEM Aang got in the finale of TLA (which he also embodied in the ending of LOK season 1 LOLOL) and also the whole Raava/Vaatu thing.

Mostly because of how massive Shit Season 2 was, it was the most coherent story telling that ever could me written.

 

[JadedWriter]

Mostly because of how massive Shit Season 2 was, it was the most coherent story telling that ever could me written.

Having a great art style and not focusing on Korra did those two episodes a lot of good.

 

[FeenixRising]

*walks back in thread*

o.... k


thanks for the answer guys

 

[Kinvara]

As I said in my edit, I'd buy that...if it were not for the air turtle clearly airbending. They're benders. It's not that they can't also be those things you mentioned, but they are clearly bending. Thus the original benders. Maybe the humans learned techniques from animals, but that doesn't make them not benders.

The air lion-turtle is just floating? I mean, I guess it might be technically bending but it's pretty clear the lion-turtles don't know how to bend as in the artform.

 

[JadedWriter]

The air lion-turtle is just floating? I mean, I guess it might be technically bending but it's pretty clear the lion-turtles don't know how to bend as in the artform.

I think they just serve as the conduit or something, but it's the animals themselves that humans model the bending movements off of. Like when Zuko and Aang had to get trained by those two dragons to unlock a new form of fire bending.

 

[Veelk]

The air lion-turtle is just floating? I mean, I guess it might be technically bending but it's pretty clear the lion-turtles don't know how to bend as in the artform.

I don't really understand why just floating wouldn't be considered a technique. That's what Zaheer did when he achieved total mastery. Hell, that's even what sky bisons do. A technique is just something you do in a certain way. Why wouldn't lion turtles have those techniques be considered an art form but skybisons doing the same thing would?

 

[m_shortpants]

That's not a hole. Except for the avatar, people can only learn one type of bending. Benders can still learn form other benders, so if a firebender observed a badgermole, he'd likely develop a unique earth style of firebending, but could not learn earthbending itself.

A hole is a contradiction, where two things cannot be true at the same time, but the story insists they are. And merely being a fantasy story doesn't excuse it from trying to avoid them.

I don't remember the Wan story too well, but why were humans limited to only one element again? I know Raava holds the 4 for the avatar or whatever.

I think my question above was, given the context of TLA (that animals/the moon taught humans how to bend), what was limiting people from learning other types of bending? Did thry give a reason in TLA why people can only bend one element?

But I guess it all comes down to the origin of bending, which is explained in Korra. If those original humans received bending from the turtles, they just then passed it down to their offspring.

So never mind.

Oh, and harmonic convergence gives people airbending! Or something!

 

[NeoForte]

After season 2 I'd always imagined that the whole original benders thing got kinda messed up as time went by. Like the lion turtles are the original benders but over time they disappeared (TLA had the last one known) and the people orally passing down the origins eventually gave the original title to the animals that were still around to bend (and most likely were the big influences in creating new technics for using that bending). Legends and traditions change over time, so what people believe now would not necessarily be what was true.

 

[Kinvara]

I think they just serve as the conduit or something, but it's the animals themselves that humans model the bending movements off of. Like when Zuko and Aang had to get trained by those two dragons to unlock a new form of fire bending.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

I don't really understand why just floating wouldn't be considered a technique. That's what Zaheer did when he achieved total mastery. Hell, that's even what sky bisons do. A technique is just something you do in a certain way. Why wouldn't lion turtles have techniques?

Well, it is the air lion turtle. It wouldn't make much sense if it couldn't float/fly. It is probably literally lighter than air due to it's elemental affinity.

Saying that a lion-turtle is a bender sounds redundant like saying "fire can bend fire".

 

[Kinvara]

I don't remember the Wan story too well, but why were humans limited to only one element again? I know Raava holds the 4 for the avatar or whatever.

I think my question above was, given the context of TLA (that animals/the moon taught humans how to bend), what was limiting people from learning other types of bending? Did thry give a reason in TLA why people can only bend one element?

But I guess it all comes down to the origin of bending, which is explained in Korra. If those original humans received bending from the turtles, they just then passed it down to their offspring.

So never mind.

Oh, and harmonic convergence gives people airbending! Or something!

In Beginnings, it is explained that a regular human being does not have the energy to be able to contain more than one element.

Wan almost died attempting to bend them all at the same time even with Raava's help. It was only when they permanently united using harmonic convergence that he was able to do so with no issues and became the first avatar.

After season 2 I'd always imagined that the whole original benders thing got kinda messed up as time went by. Like the lion turtles are the original benders but over time they disappeared (TLA had the last one known) and the people orally passing down the origins eventually gave the original title to the animals that were still around to bend (and most likely were the big influences in creating new technics for using that bending). Legends and traditions change over time, so what people believe now would not necessarily be what was true.

This too.

 

[Veelk]

I don't remember the Wan story too well, but why were humans limited to only one element again? I know Raava holds the 4 for the avatar or whatever.

I think my question above was, given the context of TLA (that animals/the moon taught humans how to bend), what was limiting people from learning other types of bending? Did thry give a reason in TLA why people can only bend one element?

They didn't give a reason why you were only limited to one. But it's partially a matter of genetics. There were twins at one point in the show, one was an earth bender the other was not. But the rules to bending was that, except for the avatar, there is only one bending art per person, if you can do it at all. They didn't explain why that is except in some interview where it has something to do with genetics and spirituality, but that's not a hole. If it's a matter of genetic code, then the answer to your question is simply that it's not in their genes.

Well, it is the air lion turtle. It wouldn't make much sense if it couldn't float/fly. It is probably literally lighter than air due to it's elemental affinity.

Saying that a lion-turtle is a bender sounds redundant like saying "fire can bend fire".

Okay, first off, I think we need to step back and point out that you're making a lot of this up to justify your postion. Lion Turtles are not the physical/spiritual embodiments of anything, according to the show. According to the wiki they are just really unusual animals, as far as I can tell. They're intelligent and have spiritual abilities and are unique, but otherwise just animals all the same. As you well know, I have no problem vetoing the given storyline if it sucks, but be aware that you are writing your own material here, and going fairly far to do so too. The show doesn't suggest anything that you're saying.

And merely being redundant does not make it untrue. I could say "I am the embodiment of myself", and still say "I move myself". That said, a fire, by itself, can't bend fire. Fire is an inanimate object with no will of it's own. To bend something means to impose will on it to make it do something it would not ordinarily do. Even if you want to play the animism card and say the fire has a spirit and thus a will, then it's will is imposing itself on itself to move. A fire that bends fire is, by definition, a firebender.

Frankly, "Hey, lets get that bending shit from animals and the moon and hand them out to others for the lulz" is the simpler explanation that fits better with what happens in the show.

 

[Shard]

I kind of wish that they'd used the the scene where Prince Wu hits on Asami and asks her out to hint and Asami's orientation. Adding something along the lines of, 'I mean, I know your reputation butttt-', or something about him 'not normally being her type'.

Easy peesy, g rated crowd can say 'reputation is she doesn't date/focuses on her work over relationships'

Korasami interpretation 'Asami has started dating girls/been seen maybe dating other women or it's known by some that she swings both ways, or might be gay'.

Yea, this was actually done.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ShipTease/TheLegendOfKorra

In "After All These Years", Asami shows no interest in Prince Wu's attempts to flirt with her, but perks up when Mako tells her that Korra would be returning to Republic City that very night.

 

[FeenixRising]

Can't say I understand what they're saying, but my Mako brand " L" detector is going off the charts.

nnmmaz

 

[JadedWriter]

Can't say I understand what they're saying, but my Mako brand " L" detector is going off the charts.



nnmmaz

Whatever it is Kuvira's in on it so it works for me.

 

[Trey]

Its stuff like this which makes me wonder why people think Beginnings were good episodes.

Felt more like a 2 episode justification of the bullshit DEM Aang got in the finale of TLA (which he also embodied in the ending of LOK season 1 LOLOL) and also the whole Raava/Vaatu thing.

The lore was always convoluted. The Avatar State as a concept was a wreck since the beginning of book Earth.

Beginnings had a fun art style and provided a good enough reasoning for the avatar's being. It doesn't truly conflict with anything said about bending throughout the series because you can square the "learned from the original benders" reasoning about as well as you could before where you had to assume people spontaneously began to use bending just by looking at huge beavers and the moon.

 

[Infinite Justice]

Mostly because of how massive Shit Season 2 was, it was the most coherent story telling that ever could me written.

Having a great art style and not focusing on Korra did those two episodes a lot of good.

lol

this series just seems to brim "hey this thing isn't as bad due to worse shit occurring" even though the thing is also bad.

*shrug*

The lore was always convoluted. The Avatar State as a concept was a wreck since the beginning of book Earth.

Beginnings had a fun art style and provided a good enough reasoning for the avatar's being. It doesn't truly conflict with anything said about bending throughout the series because you can square the "learned from the original benders" reasoning about as well as you could before where you had to assume people spontaneously began to use bending just by looking at huge beavers and the moon.

I didn't even mention the Avatar state since that's a another can of worms, made even more incoherent with the LOK stuff.

Its like whenever they tried to flesh out anything it just made shit worse instead of keeping whatever foundation they had then go from there.

Plus i've realized due to how much Korra was basically "opposite Aang" even till the end of the series LOL

 

[Veelk]

The lore was always convoluted. The Avatar State as a concept was a wreck since the beginning of book Earth.

Bah. You always say this, but the only argument you make is why Aang doesn't just voluntarily wreak massive, in-discriminant destruction on the fire nation capitol. To which the answer is very simple: Aang doesn't want to.

 

[SystemBug]

lol

this series just seems to brim "hey this thing isn't as bad due to worse shit occurring" even though the thing is also bad.

*shrug*

atleast the series gets to a point where it legitimately becomes good. most don't

 

[Trey]

Bah. You always say this, but the only argument you make is why Aang doesn't just voluntarily wreak massive, in-discriminant destruction on the fire nation capitol. To which the answer is very simple: Aang doesn't want to.

It didn't know what it wanted to be. They say the Avatar State is a defense mechanism but there are plenty of times Aang almost dies and it didn't kick in. How can Aang talk to his past lives all easily and stuff but can't channel their experience and power just as easily? And it kicks in when he gets all emotional but the key to controlling the AS is to first embrace, then dispatch with emotion. It's all over the place. And that's the inherent problem of the mechanic - it was used as a cheap plot tactic far too often and thus made its employment shakey and sometimes hard to follow. It cuts into Aang's agency and he never truly embraces its power or uses it to understand himself. It's kind of just there after a while.

This is all before that chakra mumbo jumbo and the rock incident, too.

 

[Infinite Justice]

atleast the series gets to a point where it legitimately becomes good. most don't

i will give the nod to season 3 (mainly due to the Z team, even though we hardly got anything much about them) and most of season 1 but everything else i will go with meh to alright at best.

 

[FeenixRising]

Whatever it is Kuvira's in on it so it works for me.

works for me also, anything else is secondary

 

[Veelk]

It didn't know what it wanted to be. They say the Avatar State is a defense mechanism but there are plenty of times Aang almost dies and it didn't kick in. How can Aang talk to his past lives all easily and stuff but can't channel their experience and power just as easily? And it kicks in when he gets all emotional but the key to controlling the AS is to first embrace, then dispatch with emotion. It's all over the place. And that's the inherent problem of the mechanic - it was used as a cheap plot tactic far too often and thus made its employment shakey and sometimes hard to follow. It cuts into Aang's agency and he never truly embraces its power or uses it to understand himself. It's kind of just there after a while.

This is all before that chakra mumbo jumbo and the rock incident, too.

I'm not sure which instances your talking about. I think it has to do with emotional feeling of endangerment, which even if Aang is in danger, he might feel enough in control to not trigger the AS.

Because Communication and channeling power are different activities.

And experiencing emotion without being attached to it is not a contradiction no matter how many times you say it is.

The AS had it's problems, but not as many as you seem to believe.

 

[NeoForte]

It didn't know what it wanted to be. They say the Avatar State is a defense mechanism but there are plenty of times Aang almost dies and it didn't kick in. How can Aang talk to his past lives all easily and stuff but can't channel their experience and power just as easily? And it kicks in when he gets all emotional but the key to controlling the AS is to first embrace, then dispatch with emotion. It's all over the place. And that's the inherent problem of the mechanic - it was used as a cheap plot tactic far too often and thus made its employment shakey and sometimes hard to follow. It cuts into Aang's agency and he never truly embraces its power or uses it to understand himself. It's kind of just there after a while.

This is all before that chakra mumbo jumbo and the rock incident, too.

The Avatar state has been noted to posses two mechanisms in the show. The defense one that triggers when he's in a extremely heighten emotion state (Seeing Katara "killed" right in front of him as an example) or when his life is in danger and then there is the state you can control and tap into the great cosmic energies (what he was learning to do with the Guru). We see this with Korra as well. For her it was the opposite of Aang. She barely used the defensive form of the state but was able to tap into the cosmic powers of the controlled state. Aang only really used the controlled version at the end (and would have done it earlier had Azula not killed him).

As for Aang talking with his precious lives so easily, remember he's an air nomad who possessed great spiritual powers. Now look at Korra, she barely knew her spiritual aspects until she was able to get through to Aang. Also that had nothing to do with the Avatar state anyway and it's made moot when Korra loses the connection.

 

[Trey]

Korra's lack of spirituality is the entire reason she couldn't go into the Avatar State. But as tLoK seems to show, spirituality is something you're born with.

Because Communication and channeling power are different activities.

And experiencing emotion without being attached to it is not a contradiction no matter how many times you say it is.

The AS had it's problems, but not as many as you seem to believe.

I think a kind of cool thing about Korra (in a perverse way) is that it's all of AtLA's little itty bitty problems blown up into an epic scale. Think on some of the dumbest things about the Legend of Korra.

Amon is a fraud, ergo bender superiority isn't that big of a deal? Sokka reconciles his legitimate issues with being a nonbender in a day or two and it's never brought up again.

Aang is a stupid deus ex machina that robs the main character of responsibility and agency, giving her the solution to her emotional plight? Lion Turtle.

Korra can somehow go into the AS even though she's effectively cut off from her past lives, which is ridiculous to the point that the creators deny that it's a retcon and "that's how things have always been."? Aang can still converse with his prior lives (even holds a veritable town meeting and takes an opinion poll) despite his chakras being blocked and him being effectively cut off from the universe's energy.

Asami is supposed to be a part of the gang but is kind of just there to be a romantic entity while the others in the group get way more screen time and contribute more to the story? Suki.

 

[Veelk]

I think a kind of cool thing about Korra (in a perverse way) is that it's all of AtLA's little itty bitty problems blown up into an epic scale. Think on some of the dumbest things about the Legend of Korra.

Amon is a fraud, ergo bender superiority isn't that big of a deal? Sokka reconciles his legitimate issues with being a nonbender in a day or two and it's never brought up again.

Aang is a stupid deus ex machina that robs the main character of responsibility and agency, giving her the solution to her emotional plight? Lion Turtle.

Korra can somehow go into the AS even though she's effectively cut off from her past lives, which is ridiculous to the point that the creators deny that it's a retcon and "that's how things have always been."? Aang can still converse with his prior lives (even holds a veritable town meeting and takes an opinion poll) despite his chakras being blocked and being effectively cut off from the universe's energy.

Asami is supposed to be a part of the gang but is kind of just there to be a romantic entity while the others in the group get way more screen time and contribute more to the story? Suki.

Well, this seems like a completely different argument than what were on before, but okay.

The bender-nonbender is a non issue in TLA because Sokka's insecurity is just that. Nonbenders were essentially just as powerful as benders. Hell, if anything, Ty Lee was the most capable fighter of anyone there. It's not an actual problem. Became even less in LoK by the fact that the equalists basically took over the entire city from the 'superior' benders.

As I just said, communication and channeling powers are different things. It's like wondering how can Aang speak if his arms and legs are tied up.

Suki became a group member REEEEALLY late...but yeah, I agree, she should have had more of a presence.

 

[Trey]

Well, this seems like a completely different argument than what were on before, but okay.

The bender-nonbender is a non issue in TLA because Sokka's insecurity is just that. Nonbenders were essentially just as powerful as benders. Hell, if anything, Ty Lee was the most capable fighter of anyone there. It's not an actual problem. Became even less in LoK by the fact that the equalists basically took over the entire city from the 'superior' benders.

As I just said, communication and channeling powers are different things. It's like wondering how can Aang speak if his arms and legs are tied up.

Suki became a group member REEEEALLY late...but yeah, I agree, she should have had more of a presence.

I say all that to show that all the little problems I'm talking about in AtLA are fundamentally the same as the big problems in tLoK, which most would agree with as being weaknesses of the show.

The nonbender issue was just as big in AtLA as it was in tLoK. It's not an "issue" because it isn't honestly engaged with by the show, but benders are clearly more capable in combat than a nonbender could ever hope to be. And it's really illustrated best thus: any bender could conceivably learn Ty Lee's style, whereas she could never learn how to bend elements. Ever. That's the largest difference. What is the most impressive feat Ty Lee ever accomplished? Knocking out Katara in close combat?

Three benders stormed the Earth Kingdom single handedly. Took out an entire army in a few minutes. The AtLA finale itself is a strong bit of evidence in just how out of depth a nonbender is in a bender's world. Every idea Sokka has is driven by the capability of Toph. Piadao knocks out a guy while Jeong Jeong lights up five town blocks and every tank nestled within them.

We all look the other way because it's honestly not that big of a deal and bending is cool, but any time the show acknowledges this disparity is cringeworthy.

And it's obvious that by function of the show are they two different things but it makes little sense to demarcate the two, seeing as they're both relying on the wisdom of past lives and engaging with them. Which is the entire point of the Avatar. You can say that they're "two different activities," but why? Especially when it makes more sense to treat the two as one in the same action, that being engaging with a past life. The only reason is that it's just not how it is, which is no real reason at all.

 

[JadedWriter]

It's been stated pretty much well to me at least that when Suki isn't with the Gaang she's doing Kyoshi Warrior shit and has an actual purpose and meaning in her life IE isn't just there to be Sokka's love interest. Suki has a purpose and even then she proved to be pretty badass. Suki could whoop Asami's ass. Suki saved Toph from drowning, helped rescue Appa, aided Sokka and Zuko in the prison break and who knows what I'm forgetting. Asami's just like the prize at the bottom of a box of cereal or just mass troop transport.

 

[Trey]

It's been stated pretty much well to me at least that when Suki isn't with the Gaang she's doing Kyoshi Warrior shit and has an actual purpose and meaning in her life IE isn't just there to be Sokka's love interest. Suki has a purpose and even then she proved to be pretty badass. Suki could whoop Asami's ass. Suki saved Toph from drowning, helped rescue Appa, aided Sokka and Zuko in the prison break and who knows what I'm forgetting. Asami's just like the prize at the bottom of a box of cereal or just mass troop transport.

Partly why it's a "little problem" in AtLA whereas Asami is a "big problem" in tLoK.

At any rate, that's all handwavey stuff. Asami "does stuff," too. She saved the entire gang on two separate occasions. Asami is busy building the entire city or the Hummingbird Project when she's not getting shitted on. They both are ancillary to the gang is the point, and it starts with Suki - a minor character - and leads to Asami, who is supposed to be a major character but seems like an after thought most of the time.

 

[Veelk]

I say all that to show that all the little problems I'm talking about in AtLA are fundamentally the same as the big problems in tLoK, which most would agree with as being weaknesses of the show.

The nonbender issue was just as big in AtLA as it was in tLoK. It's not an "issue" because it isn't honestly engaged with by the show, but benders are clearly more capable in combat than a nonbender could ever hope to be. And it's really illustrated best thus: any bender could conceivably learn Ty Lee's style, whereas she could never learn how to bend elements. Ever. That's the largest difference. What is the most impressive feat Ty Lee ever accomplished? Knocking out Katara in close combat?

I don't think I've ever heard anyone go "Why is Sokka so competent? He should suck since he's not a bender."

I'd say Ty Lee's most impressive trick was her defeating an entire earth bending army squad by herself.

And it's not a dishonest engagement because fights don't work out based on whose 'potentially' stronger. Yeah, a bender can learn Ty Lee's style, but who has the time to master their bending art AND chakra points to the extent that Ty Lee did? Keep in mind that Azula and her teammates are the most competent people in their field, practicing their specific art through childhood. Notice how everyone in real life is perfectly capable of mastering a multiple martial arts, but most people don't even know a single one?

The kind of warrior your talking about would be extraordinarily rare at best, and can still be beaten through superior skill in 1 area, an environmental or strategic disadvantage, or just plain luck.

Three benders stormed the Earth Kingdom single handedly. Took out an entire army in a few minutes. The AtLA finale itself is a strong bit of evidence in just how out of depth a nonbender is in a bender's world. Every idea Sokka has is driven by the capability of Toph. Piadao knocks out a guy while Jeong Jeong lights up five town blocks and every tank nestled within them.

That's...really more because they have main character powers. In case you haven't noticed, those benders were up against benders + machinery. Jeong Jeong in particular was powered by the commit yet able to take out dozens of equally powered firebenders who have weaponized enhancements. By your logic, Jeong Jeong should have been annihilated, because the army has numbers and equipment and superior positioning going for them. If we had stayed with Piando longer, we'd have seen him cut down every mook in the entire city.

We all look the other way because it's honestly not that big of a deal and bending is cool, but any time the show acknowledges this disparity is cringeworthy.

You're exaggerating. If the show wanted to show nonbenders decimating armies of benders, they could, like they did with Ty Lee.

And it's obvious that by function of the show are they two different things but it makes little sense to demarcate the two, seeing as they're both relying on the wisdom of past lives and engaging with them. Which is the entire point of the Avatar.

I always understood it to be channeling the wills of the past avatars. Why would the knowledge of how to move water repeated 1000 times be more effective at moving water than 20? The concept is simple, it's the force of strength that would be lacking.

 

[JadedWriter]

Partly why it's a "little problem" in AtLA whereas Asami is a "big problem" in tLoK.

At any rate, that's all handwavey stuff. Asami "does stuff," too. She saved the entire gang on two separate occasions. Asami is busy building the entire city or the Hummingbird Project when she's not getting shitted on. They both are ancillary to the gang is the point, and it starts with Suki - a minor character - and leads to Asami, who is supposed to be a major character but seems like an after thought most of the time.

But when Suki wasn't on screen doing stuff she was off screen. I don't exactly remember Suki being a static background character on ATLA. When she was there it was usually for a very good reason. Not "well let's just drop Suki here and give her two frames of animation."

 

[Infinite Justice]

I say all that to show that all the little problems I'm talking about in AtLA are fundamentally the same as the big problems in tLoK, which most would agree with as being weaknesses of the show.

The nonbender issue was just as big in AtLA as it was in tLoK. It's not an "issue" because it isn't honestly engaged with by the show, but benders are clearly more capable in combat than a nonbender could ever hope to be. And it's really illustrated best thus: any bender could conceivably learn Ty Lee's style, whereas she could never learn how to bend elements. Ever. That's the largest difference. What is the most impressive feat Ty Lee ever accomplished? Knocking out Katara in close combat?

Three benders stormed the Earth Kingdom single handedly. Took out an entire army in a few minutes. The AtLA finale itself is a strong bit of evidence in just how out of depth a nonbender is in a bender's world. Every idea Sokka has is driven by the capability of Toph. Piadao knocks out a guy while Jeong Jeong lights up five town blocks and every tank nestled within them.

We all look the other way because it's honestly not that big of a deal and bending is cool, but any time the show acknowledges this disparity is cringeworthy.

Eh but the issue in TLOK wasn't just because they were capable, its because they were seemingly taking advantage and their capability was the first thing that was identified/targeted as the reason so the non-benders tried to take it away.

Hell in all those scenarios listed none of the benders took that advantage (Jeong Jeong and Piadao was on the same side fighting for the same cause, The group erred caution in regards to Ty lee afterwards, Toph was guided by Sokka since he had a plan and he's good at making plans, etc)

Compared to like Tarrlok, his Father, the Angi Kai with their criminal activites, the rouge firebender killing certain character's parents (lol), etc

 

[Trey]

The feats of strength exhibited by benders are magnitudes more impressive, objectively, than any thing ever exhibited by the nonbenders in the show. I'm honestly shocked that this is a contentious point - same as I was back when I had this discussion before tLoK first aired.

Bending is an immutable trait of a person. It necessarily makes them a stronger individual than a nonbender just on average. A grandmaster swordsman would lose to a grandmaster swordsman who can also control air. A grandmaster swordsman would probably lose to a guy who could just control air. It's a fundamental advantage that gets pushed to ridiculous levels by this show, and to pleasing effect.

Sokka can stab a sword (and never hit anyone with it, mind) while Katara can drop a waterfall on your head than freeze you completely in an instant. Azula is probably a martial artist on par with Ty Lee, and she can also shoot lightning out of her fingertips.

And I'm just discussing the combat advantages of being able to bend the elements, never mind the limitless advantages in daily life and society in general.

Hell in all those scenarios listed none of the benders took that advantage (Jeong Jeong and Piadao was on the same side fighting for the same cause, The group erred caution in regards to Ty lee afterwards, Toph was guided by Sokka since he had a plan and he's good at making plans, etc)

JJ is a far more effective weapon than Piandao in combat, Sokka's wit is not something inherent to a nonbender, and Toph has more to do with their success than the other way around.

 

[Veelk]

The feats of strength exhibited by benders are magnitudes more impressive, objectively, than any thing ever exhibited by the nonbenders in the show. I'm honestly shocked that this is a contentious point - same as I was back when I had this discussion before tLoK first aired.

Bending is an immutable trait of a person. It necessarily makes them a stronger individual than a nonbender just on average. A grandmaster swordsman would lose to a grandmaster swordsman who can also control air. A grandmaster swordsman would probably lose to a guy who could just control air. It's a fundamental advantage that gets pushed to ridiculous levels by this show, and to pleasing effect. It looks cool.

Sokka can stab a sword (and never hit anyone with it, mind) while Katara can drop a waterfall on your head than freeze you completely in an instant. Azula is probably a martial artist on par with Ty Lee, and she can also shoot lightning out of her fingertips.

Sorry, but this is simply not how fights work. There are hundreds of thousands of variables. How much is each of them trying. Where are they fighting. Are both of them in top health. But most importantly, you are never going to get two swordsman with identical capabilities. Even if they practice the same style, they'll differ in the nuances of their techniques. By necessity, the two people will be doing different things, not mirroring each other, because if one performs A, then the other will have to try and find a way to counter it with B, which the other will be trying to anticipate with C. The airbendiing grandmaster swordsman is more likely to win, sure. But will win? You can never, ever assure that. People don't have 'powerlevels' that make them immune to people with less. In a fight, the smallest of things can mean the most colossal of differences.

It's a contentious topic because if bending worked the way you suggested it does, then the White Lotus' assault on Ba Sing Se would have been a hilarious failure, unless your suggesting that those 5 old farts literally have more skill and power than an entire army empowered to 10 times their strength by a comet while in a strategically defensible position. And if that's the case, then there is no reason that a nonbender can't 'level up' and eliminate...well, just anyone.

 

[Trey]

Sorry, but this is simply not how fights work. There are hundreds of thousands of variables. How much is each of them trying. Where are they fighting. Are both of them in top health. But most importantly, you are never going to get two swordsman with identical capabilities. Even if they practice the same style, they'll differ in the nuances of their techniques. By necessity, the two people will be doing different things, not mirroring each other, because if one performs A, then the other will have to try and find a way to counter it with B, which the other will be trying to anticipate with C. The airbendiing grandmaster swordsman is more likely to win, sure. But will win? You can never, ever assure that. In a fight, the smallest of things can mean the most colossal of differences.

It's a contentious topic because if bending worked the way you suggested it does, then the White Lotus' assault on Ba Sing Se would have been a hilarious failure, unless your suggesting that those 5 old farts literally have more skill and power than an entire army empowered to 10 times their strength by a comet while in a strategically defensible position.

Those 4 old farts (because given the scale of the battle, can we really count Piandao?) are more powerful than an army of firebenders. That's supposed to show how strong they are. They probably would have had a much easier time if it were an army of nonbenders who were told they could stand toe to toe with master benders. Those firebenders in the finale had that option that their nonbending contemporaries did not, and never could acquire. It necessarily makes them a more threatening force to reckon with.

In any competition, ability is a means of executing the options available to you. There is nothing a nonbender can do on par with conjuring lightning. There is nothing inherent to a nonbender that can match literally flying through the air. The effective range of a firebender is as far as the plume of flame he can shoot from his arm, while a nonbender's reach stops at his fingertips.

It all comes back to this core idea: A bender can conceivably learn any martial art or tactic available to a nonbender, while the reverse is not true. And the practical benefits bending confers to an individual can reach superhuman heights that cannot be reckoned with, countered, or otherwise mitigated by anything inherent to a nonbender.

 

[Veelk]

Those 4 old farts (because given the scale of the battle, can we really count Piandao?) are more powerful than an army of firebenders. That's supposed to show how strong they are. They probably would have had a much easier time if it were an army of nonbenders who were told they could stand toe to toe with master benders. Those firebenders in the finale had that option that their nonbending contemporaries did not, and never could acquire. It necessarily makes them a more threatening force to reckon with.

In any competition, ability is a means of executing the options available to you. There is nothing a nonbender can do on par with conjuring lightning. There is nothing inherent to a nonbender that can match literally flying through the air. The effective range of a firebender is as far as the plume of flame he can shoot from his arm, while a nonbender's reach stops at his fingertips.

It all comes back to this core idea: A bender can conceivably learn any martial art or tactic available to a nonbender, while the reverse is not true. And the practical benefits bending confers to an individual can reach superhuman heights that cannot be reckoned with, countered, or otherwise mitigated by anything inherent to a nonbender.

The idea that 4 old farts, skilled benders or not, can take on a literal army of roided up firebenders forted up in one of the most defensible cities ever more absurd than the idea that nonbenders can fight on equal terms with benders.

The result of any competition is not what you can do, but simply what you do. Performance, not ability. A bender that has 100 more options available to him than his opponent is still going to lose, even to a less skilled nonbender, if he picks the wrong one. Fighting is not determined by what you can do, but simply what you do.

And this is evident by the fact that the scenerio you are describing simply never happens, not in TLA nor in real life. There are no perfect copies and any real fight is asymmetrical. Name one fight where X fought X+bending, in a place of complete neutrality.

 

[m_shortpants]

In Beginnings, it is explained that a regular human being does not have the energy to be able to contain more than one element.

Wan almost died attempting to bend them all at the same time even with Raava's help. It was only when they permanently united using harmonic convergence that he was able to do so with no issues and became the first avatar.



This too.

Yeah I remember now, thanks.

Soooo wasn't the avatar the physical manifestation of the earth? The bridge between worlds?

Or was that role developed after Wan? Wan was just a regular dude. Raava is the special one. But even then she's a spirit of light and good, not the earth. I suppose the bridge between worlds makes sense then since the avatar literally is both. Though I could've sworn the avatar was supposed to be the physical manifestation of the world or some shit. Maybe I misremember. I kind of liked the Avatar concept when it was mysterious in TLA.

I mean, the avatar is supposed to uphold balance too right? What kind of balance is imprisoning the yang to your yin in a tree for 10000 years?

 

[Kinvara]

Yeah I remember now, thanks.

Soooo wasn't the avatar the physical manifestation of the earth? The bridge between worlds?

Or was that role developed after Wan? Wan was just a regular dude. Raava is the special one. But even then she's a spirit of light and good, not the earth. I suppose the bridge between worlds makes sense then since the avatar literally is both. Though I could've sworn the avatar was supposed to be the physical manifestation of the world or some shit. Maybe I misremember. I kind of liked the Avatar concept when it was mysterious in TLA.

I mean, the avatar is supposed to uphold balance too right? What kind of balance is imprisoning the yang to your yin in a tree for 10000 years?

The avatar is the bridge between the physical and spirit worlds. This duty was created once Wan became the first avatar.

The avatar is not the physical manifestation of the earth (That would be Captain Planet lol.) and I don't think they ever suggested as such?

Since Vaatu is literally the embodiment of chaos so as the antithesis to balance/order he must be subdued. It's not a true yin-yang.

The ocean and moon spirit were more like the actual yinyang principle than Raava and Vaatu are.

 

[Veelk]

The avatar is not the physical manifestation of the earth (That would be Captain Planet lol.) and I don't think they ever suggested as such?

They stated it in the art book. I rarely go outside the material to gain understanding over a work, but that explanation was unique and cool and made things like the lion turtle make a lot more sense, so I went with it.

Now it's just some guy who got lucky through a series of contrivances. I find that tale much less compelling. And makes a lot of TLA make less sense in hindsight.

 

[Kinvara]

They stated it in the art book. I rarely go outside the material to gain understanding over a work, but that explanation was unique and cool and made things like the lion turtle make a lot more sense, so I went with it.

I have looked over that art book from cover to cover and I remember no such thing.

I think I would have remembered an important detail like that.

What page is it on?

 

[Daemul]

Can't say I understand what they're saying, but my Mako brand " L" detector is going off the charts.



nnmmaz

I will need a translation for this.

 

[FeenixRising]

I will need a translation for this.

You and me both.

But Korvirasami is a ship I will gladly serve aboard.

Spoiler

Eat it Toa