JadedWriter
Member
I will man every deck and make the non believers clean that ship with their tongues.
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The Legend of Korra: Book 4 |OT2| ALL HAIL THE GREAT UNITER
- Thread starter Toa TAK
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I don't own it myself, but here's what the wiki said on it
http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Avatar#Trivia
Things like this is why I take what the creators say as a passing suggestion at best. Their original idea is much better.
Infinite Justice
Member
Raava and Vaatu were the spirits of the planet, representing the light and darkness of Earth. It all fits together: the human vessel of the light planet spirit is the Avatar. Wan imbibed the cosmic energy of harmonic convergence alongside the good planet spirit and became the bridge between the spiritual and physical planes as well as the Avatar of the light spirit of the planet.
A nonbender can defeat a bender, sure. It's conceivable, but have long odds in being actualized. That's what power disparity is: the relative control of odds - of outcome. But you're not going to tell me a man with an missile cannot defeat a man with nunchucks simply because that fight hasn't occurred yet.
The heights of bending have no answer from the best a nonbender can manage. But sure, a Ty Lee can defeat a random earth nation goon. Hence my point that benders have a distinct natural advantage with respect to their nonbending contemporaries.
A nonbender can defeat a bender, sure. It's conceivable, but have long odds in being actualized. That's what power disparity is: the relative control of odds - of outcome. But you're not going to tell me a man with an missile cannot defeat a man with nunchucks simply because that fight hasn't occurred yet.
The heights of bending have no answer from the best a nonbender can manage. But sure, a Ty Lee can defeat a random earth nation goon. Hence my point that benders have a distinct natural advantage with respect to their nonbending contemporaries.
do i sense a canon debate coming up?
If there is, I don't have the time for it today, unfortunately.
Hm...no they weren't. They were just flat out the spirits of darkness and light, chaos and order. It's still unknown to me why either of them cared about the planet.
A man with nunchuks can totally defeat a guy with a missle...if it works out that way. If they fought 100 times, I'd say the missile guy is more likely to come out on top in most of those encounters, but depending on circumstances, it could be the opposite. For example, suppose the two fight in an exclosed 10 square foot room. Who has the advantage then? You cannot just throw out two opponents without context and say with any certainty that they'd win.
It doesn't matter what the height of bending is when fewer than 1% of benders ever reach that height. And the power disparity that can be achieved even by nonbending fighters is such that the vast majority of benders are helpless.
Look, we really need to look no further than the evidence of the series for this. You can point and look "wow, look at what a big explosion that is" or whatever, but answer me this: How many times has a nonbender explicitely lost to bender, specifically because they couldn't bend? Very few. Sokka couldn't do much against a volcano, and that's basically it.
FeenixRising
Banned
JadedWriter
Member
Holy shit please make that a game. Saved as my next phone wallpaper.
FeenixRising
Banned
Get on it Platinum!! Give me some really absurd metal bending moves!!
That's more like it.
m_shortpants
Member
you like the fit figure huh
JadedWriter
Member
And give her back that long ass braid. Have her metal bend that shit into a fucking scythe or something. Her game would be hype as fuck.
FeenixRising
Banned
JadedWriter
Member
Better workout partner than Asami. Asami doesn't have that competitive hunger that Kuvira has.
Weird.
It would have made for a different series if the Avatar was the Spirit of the Planet.
The avatar's main goal as it was presented in the series was to mediate conflicts between the four nations and sometimes between spirits and humans.
Why would a Spirit of the Planet give a crap about the Fire Lord?
JadedWriter
Member
Why did Captain Planet give a shit about 5 random kids?
Because Captain Planet couldn't form unless the kids let their powers combine.
That's really cool
Because the fire nation is routinely fucking over the environment, explicitly connected to the spirit world? And humans are a part of the earth too, so the avatar is there to keep the balance of 4 nations is important to it. The planet cares about all it's inhabitants, but doesn't understand them, being a cosmic being and all that. That's why Yeng Chen said the Avatar needs to be human, so it can actually comprehend what is going on in our tiny little brains. It's a grander and more mystical story than what we got in Korra. And I think it makes more sense anyway.
Honestly, from what I got from the original series, the 4 nations are meant to be individuals. It was what Roku said and I assumed it was part of the way the planet has to be. I always wondered what that made republic city then, since that was definitely a mixing of the nations. It might make sense from a human perspective, but I would think the planet would have issues with the 4 mixing under any circumstances.
But the writers stopped writing from the mindset of TLA a while ago. That's been perfectly clear for a while now.
JadedWriter
Member
That is seriously her most boring picture, her eyebrow game isn't even turned on.
Thanks for the clarification.
Seriously. That's my "Is this class over yet, professor?" face in college.
Kuvira had a fantastic design, but they never did anything with it. 90% of her shots are her with that same position and facial expression. The only time I felt she actually changed was when she fought Korra, both times. I realize she is supposed to be the hardass stoic badass character, but I felt she could do more. I mean, Satsuki is essentially the same character archtype and she game off as having more dynamic expressions.
Seriously. We get that's she's very upright and no-nonsense, but even Hitler was more expressive.
JadedWriter
Member
Even Satsuki had layers. She was way different with her four friends and Nonon talked to her in a different manner than everyone else. After a certain point when she drops the fascist act she's a cool woman, made of steel and all that shit but definitely someone you could sit down with and eat food. Iroh would love Satsuki, spent half the series drinking tea.
Dat Nazi train cannon.
JadedWriter
Member
I'd love to say Hitler didn't have fangirls, but I'm quite sure I'd be talking out of my ass. Bataar was Eva Braun...he was just lucky enough to survive. Even Hitler had fucking dogs. I would've found it fun if Kuvira had an animal companion. How you going to make her a mirror of Korra without a damn animal companion Bryke?
m_shortpants
Member
fuck that mirror bullshit, it was all nonsense. They utterly failed at the "Kuvira is like Korra!" theme they told us they were going for in the last 10 minutes.
If nothing else, I'd have liked some sentimental scenes where Kuvira expresses love for Bataar or something. That'd make her betrayal weigh all the heavier, since she is then not just making a fiendish betrayal, but a personal sacrifice at the same time. But whenever Bataar tried to have one of those moments, she just made an excuse or something. I still remember that one scene before they went after Republic City. Bataar told Kuvira he loved her and she was all "kay, thanks."
It's weird because I still don't know if Bryke wanted us to buy whether or not their relationship was genuine. Like, Kuvira seems happy that they're engaged in the beginning of the season, then... nothing.
I think the implication was that it was all an act. Which is making her more villainous for basically no reason, when doing the opposite would have been more interesting.
That's not what I got at all from the original series and definitely not what was intended by the writers.
The avatar concept has always been inspired by the dalai lama who is the physical manifestation of the divine spirit of compassion and light (Avalokiteśvara). The deity refused to ascend to nirvana until all sentient beings were free from suffering and instead chose to be reincarnated in order to teach humanity these divine values.
Look at all this:
Source
Aang is quite literally the dalai lama.
If anything the Spirit of the Planet thing is a cursory/poor application of the buddhist/dalai lama concept and once the creators reworked and did more research they realized it as such and dropped it.
FeenixRising
Banned
Bataar Jr was a worthless simp, his sole purpose for even having screen time was "look at meee mommy, I have a girlfriend and we're gonna run off together b/c I have to keep up the Beifong family tradition of having mommy issues!!!!!"
They did a poor job with that, too, because it can go either way. She's all content with everything once they go in for their hug once Bataar Jr. confesses his love for her, but honestly, if they did ANYTHING with her character it would've been more interesting.
And now that we're at that point again, we've gone in circles about Kuvira. Again. =(
The true evidence of the series is the feats of strength shown by nonbenders and benders. That's how we determine their power. In a wider sense, it's how we judge what bending confers to an individual. Inherently, we know that being born a bender can be looked at as an addition to a human with no real drawbacks.
But to humor your request, Zuko fought a random earthbender with only his broadswords and came up short, at which point he used firebending in order to win the confrontation. An entire invasion was launched under the premise that the fire nation would not have access to their most powerful and defining weapon: firebending. Suki lost to Azula for free.
But the preceding paragraph was more for my benefit to test my memory. The premise of my point remains unchallenged: a bender can conceivably learn any martial art or tactic available to a nonbender, while the reverse is not true. And the practical benefits bending confers to an individual can reach superhuman heights that cannot be reckoned with, countered, or otherwise mitigated by anything inherent to a nonbender.
It's not necessary to see a tournament of nonbenders vs benders to see what each group has to offer, or to understand what bending can mean to a fight. Asking for video evidence of a bender defeating a nonbender does not subvert the nature of the show and how it portrays bending versus, say, sword play or hand to hand combat. They're in entirely different leagues. Which is why the Equalist movement truly came to fore in a meta sense, though any grander point the show was trying to make about equality and the understanding of power was - like in AtLA - thoroughly ignored.
It's going to be very interesting hearing brykes thoughts about kuvira and her development in the book 4 commentaries.
I would have thought you knew me well enough by now to know how much significance I give to write's intentions.
Besides, the avatar isn't the Dalai lama, and nothing in the show is said about being a spirit of compassion, and it's job isn't even to help free people from suffering. Yang Chen didn't say that Aang doesn't ascend because he reached enlightenment and the world needed to be taught how to remove suffering, but that he couldn't reach enlightenment so that he could still understand other, normal human beings. While a lot of that might apply to Aang, that doesn't apply to the other avatars, especially Korra. So all that is obviously not inherent to being the avatar. All they really took is the reincarnation thing + choosing of toys and some names. And maybe a few other things I'm missing, but it's clearly not the same figure.
The planet explanation makes much more sense with what they put out, regardless of what the writers 'intended'. Until LoK came along, but LoK ruins everything, so it's hardly any surprise this happened anyway.
You could just as easily say that Zuko won because of the element of surprise. If he had instead taken out a hidden knife and thrown it at the guys face, he'd have equally won. And the day of black sun was more because the fire nation lost access, as you say, their most defining weapon. As in the thing they use the most to defend themselves with. If it had been swords, and they took that away, the result would have been the same. If it had been the day of Black Fist, where all warriors of the Fist Nation were unable to use their fists for combat, but still could use swords and spears they were untrained in, they'd have a lesser chance of losing than if they had the thing they were actually trained in.
You can't humor my request because there is no such thing as a symmetrical fight anywhere in the series. What I mean when I say X vs X+ bending, I mean it'd have to be Zuko without bending vs Zuko with bending, on territory that offers neither an advantage, with both of them in an identical mental state. That never happens. But really, the basic point comes down to this
Which would be fine and dandy if this ever was the case. For some reason, you seem intent on ignoring that no person is truly equal to another, nor are people solely equipped with things 'inherent' to them, nor have any of them truly realized the full potential of any of their arts. I go back to my earlier point. Think about everyone you know. Do you know that every single one of them can become a martial arts master, or trained in combat, or whatever? Do you notice how few, if any, of them are? That's because no one does what you are describing. If there is a nonbender that wants to be strong, they will play to their strengths, whichever gives them the most advantage in the hundreds of thousands of variables that go into every combat encounter, and try to win through asymetrical combat, because there isn't any clone of themselves sitting around the corner having done everything they ever did in their lives + bending. And if such a power disparity exists that 4 old men can be 'stronger' than a fucking army that is in a superior stronghold with more weapons, then the only answer you ever need when you question why a group of nonbenders have no reason to fear a group of benders is that they're 'stronger' too.
Do you want more proof than anything? Look how Aang lost in book 2. A shot to the back. Now, Azula used lightning, but would it have been any less efficient if Mai had thrown a knife or Ty Lee snuck up behind and hit him when he's not looking? No. Literally the most powerful human in the entire world, capable of leveling entire cities of he wanted to, and a teenager with a lucky shot can take him out. That's how fights work.
Look, I don't disagree that in ideal circumstances where benders have trained to the fullest of their abilities in all the arts they encountered, yes, benders are basically humans+extra. It is true that, all things being equal, the bigger guy always wins. But they are never equal. Everything the show has shown proves repeatedly that, if a nonbender wants to put their mind to it, they can exploit some weakness that the bender in question has, be it physical or mental.
Sorry, but it seems we disagree with the fundamental basis of power is then. You seem to content to equate it to mere destruction. I consider power to be control. This seems to be the crux of our disagreement and I doubt we'll find reconciliation anywhere. That benders can throw giant rocks or make explosions that nonbenders can't is immaterial to me when, for all that, nonbenders can still beat benders at a very reasonable rate going by several fights in the series. Nonbenders have as much control over battlefields as any bender when they play to whatever strengths they do have, and that's the important thing, not some hypothetical battle of equals that is never going to happen.
BKatastrophe
Member
We do see Wan doing the dragon's dance with a dragon when trying to master firebending. So I would assume to some degree he may have learned to master the bending styles from creatures. That's an assumption though, but it's not unreasonable and to some degree it would support the whole learning bending from various sources.
I respect the amount of work that people put into that, though there are a couple of things that I would argue.
I wouldn't say Wan was just lucky. He did legitimately try to make things right after he fucked up. It was a redemption story. Then again, I'm a sucker for a good redemption story.
I want my second game, and I want a boss fight against Kuvira, and I want it to basically be Jetstream Sam
As for the benders v. nonbenders thing, I always thought Sokka's Master, while an episode I enjoy (being one of the very few Sokka-centric episodes) was dumb. It was giving Sokka his power-up, which is important for the final battle (scaling everyone up), but it made Sokka look useless when he was far from it. We see him hold his own fairly often without the sword (boomerang for series MVP), and he has plenty of other strengths as well.
Also, anyone think that maybe Amon got in touch with Hiroshi Sato before he started his campaign, and used Hiroshi's story (with his own spin on it) as his own? It's such a similar tale. Then again Mako and Bolin's parents also got chumped by a firebender, so maybe there was some mass-murdering firebender bandit or something.
BRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYKE!
I just remembered, I'm pretty sure I made that image....
FeenixRising
Banned
That is the trick though, isn't it? Power disparity. You master firebending, and you can shoot lightning out of your hands. You master sword play and you might be able to stab a guy. And the bender has access to both disciplines - the more efficient combat style and the sword. The nonbender must make do with the inferior option. It's not about finding a doppleganger with bending; you don't need a identical control to realize who has more power. You can look at a guy who can shoot a pistol alongside a master martial artist with his fists and ascertain that the shooter will walk away from that fight most likely. I agree with you that power is control, which is what bending gives the bender: more options to assert control. I defined power several posts ago:
And that is what a bender has over his nonbending contemporaries: more control over the odds. No matter how hard a nonbender tries, not a puff of smoke - not one wisp - will ever shoot out of any of his limbs. And that ability leads to all sorts of offensive and defensive options. All sorts of crazy things. That is additional power; immutable opportunity.
You can divine situations whereupon a perceived weaker opponent can manufacture a win. It happens all the time in sports. My premise isn't about that at all. I'm pointing out that benders are given a natural ability that sets them apart. This natural ability cannot ever be learned by by a nonbender, so there is no competition in that area. This natural ability is what all cultures are based upon, all armies are founded upon, and most leaders imbued with. That is inequality on a fundamental level - especially considering how powerful the ability is. It is ability so advantageous that entire industries are reliant on its power.
Things are never equal in our hypothetical because one guy can learn how to bend the elements and the other guy is a guy. A bender has more options - more powerful options are that. The extent of a nonbender is peak human - the extent of a bender is superhuman. The two entities operate on completely different scales.
As far as Aang goes, Mai's knives would have been buffeted and Ty Lee wouldn't have a shot at a dude floating in mid air channeling cosmic energy. The perks of being able to shoot an electric current from one's fingertips.
I really don't know how many ways I can possibly phrase this. What you say is true if and only if both sides maximize every art they want can physically employ, and are fighting on entirely equal terms. No one does this. This never happens.
Hell, just for someone of equal talent to become a master of both swordsmanship AND firebending, as in your scenerio, then they'd need more time master both vs an equal nonbender that solely focus' on swordmanship. Potentially, given the same resources (namely time), the nonbender might have the advantage because he mastered swordsmanship to a greater extent than the bender mastered either professions.
And the context of the show, a person can be made a great fighter relatively easily. Nonbenders have taken on benders, even multiple benders, and come out on top, repeatedly. This, by definition, proves that bending is a negligible difference to anyone who trains in combat.
This isn't even about what happens in real life anymore. If the show was about swordman vs gunman, and swordsman came out on top just as much as gunman, then in the context of that universe, whatever might happen in real life, guns do not offer a significant advantage over swords. Nonbenders, observably, do not have a practical disadvantage over benders. Benders might be able to blow things up and stuff, but that does not mean they control the fight through just that, which is actual power. How much you train the skills you do have has repeatedly been shown to be far more important than what potential skills you might have. And while not to the same degree, this is true in real life as well.
Options are not control. Control is taking and enacting options, not merely having them. A person with one option that he can employ with 100% effiency is more powerful than a person with 10 that can only use them with 10% efficiency.
You're just making things up here. Buffeted by what, there was no wind flying around anywhere nor is there any indication that it'd be strong enough to deflect a thrown knife. And Ty Lee can jump a few feet in the air. You could just as easily argue that a rock would have fallen between Aang and the lightning strike, making the lightning useless.
Hell, just for someone of equal talent to become a master of both swordsmanship AND firebending, as in your scenerio, then they'd need more time master both vs an equal nonbender that solely focus' on swordmanship. Potentially, given the same resources (namely time), the nonbender might have the advantage because he mastered swordsmanship to a greater extent than the bender mastered either professions.
And the context of the show, a person can be made a great fighter relatively easily. Nonbenders have taken on benders, even multiple benders, and come out on top, repeatedly. This, by definition, proves that bending is a negligible difference to anyone who trains in combat.
This isn't even about what happens in real life anymore. If the show was about swordman vs gunman, and swordsman came out on top just as much as gunman, then in the context of that universe, whatever might happen in real life, guns do not offer a significant advantage over swords. Nonbenders, observably, do not have a practical disadvantage over benders. Benders might be able to blow things up and stuff, but that does not mean they control the fight through just that, which is actual power. How much you train the skills you do have has repeatedly been shown to be far more important than what potential skills you might have. And while not to the same degree, this is true in real life as well.
Options are not control. Control is taking and enacting options, not merely having them. A person with one option that he can employ with 100% effiency is more powerful than a person with 10 that can only use them with 10% efficiency.
You're just making things up here. Buffeted by what, there was no wind flying around anywhere nor is there any indication that it'd be strong enough to deflect a thrown knife. And Ty Lee can jump a few feet in the air. You could just as easily argue that a rock would have fallen between Aang and the lightning strike, making the lightning useless.
By virtue of being a bender are they not on equal terms. Equal terms as you take it to mean doesn't exist, given that there are no true dopplegangers. Even identical twins have different life experiences. This is why I speak of scales when talking about relative power. A master bender would probably beat a master swordsman. An intermediate bender would probably defeat an intermediate knife specialist. Bending is advantageous inherently as it gives access to more options with unilaterally destructive, practical, and powerful results. All of which are inherently unavailable to a nonbender. You don't need to run to the high end of the power stratum for my argument to be true: it applies across the entire domain. So certainly, Ty Lee can defeat some earthbender goons. That only means she has overcame an advantage due to her relative skill being greater than that of her opponent. Prime Jordan can probably defeat me in basketball while wearing jeans and some boots, but he wouldn't do as well in a one on one game under the same conditions versus Magic Johnson.
The odds are in a bender's favor given it's unavailability to a nonbender, and its greater utility relative to conventional weapons and whatever abilities that are inherent to humans on a basic level. (Bending is like getting the deluxe package.)
the utility of bending even extends past one on one combat, given the variety of societal benefits and cultural reverence of the skill. It manifests itself at every level of the human condition in the Avatar world.
All this to say it's no big deal that the Avatar world is constructed this way. I simply find it cringeworthy for the show to acknowledge this disparity, which is fundamental to the franchise as a whole, and blink as if it were never brought up.
BRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYKE!
LOL! Hitler Kuvira. Poor girl had to be saddled down with all that crap.
JadedWriter
Member
If anybody on here is looking for something to hold them over while waiting for the Korra soundtracks to be released I recommend the Muramasa: The Demon Blade soundtrack. Here are some tracks:
Muramasa: The Demon Blade OST - Powerful Looking
Muramasa: The Demon Blade OST - Graceful Quiet B
Muramasa: The Demon Blade OST - Scenic Beauties A
Muramasa: The Demon Blade OST - Lightning Speed B
Muramasa: The Demon Blade OST - Bloody Battle B
Muramasa: The Demon Blade OST - Brisk Winds, Bright Moon A
Muramasa: The Demon Blade OST - Turbulent State
Muramasa: The Demon Blade OST - Powerful Looking
Muramasa: The Demon Blade OST - Graceful Quiet B
Muramasa: The Demon Blade OST - Scenic Beauties A
Muramasa: The Demon Blade OST - Lightning Speed B
Muramasa: The Demon Blade OST - Bloody Battle B
Muramasa: The Demon Blade OST - Brisk Winds, Bright Moon A
Muramasa: The Demon Blade OST - Turbulent State
I will always just be hyper annoyed that they didn't just allow her to be her own character.
m_shortpants
Member
Trey v Veelk
FIGHT!
FIGHT!
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