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The Legend of Korra: Book 4 |OT2| ALL HAIL THE GREAT UNITER

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M

m_shortpants

Member
Trey said:
such a grand user name, lost to the void forever.

Go well, Azula. Hope things go the way you hope. Take care.
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I spoke to him a few times via Twitter here and there and I honestly think this is the best thing for him.

Maybe 6 years down the line when Nick announces the next Avatar series or something he can come back. That would be nice.
 
J

JadedWriter

Member
m_shortpants said:
I spoke to him a few times via Twitter here and there and I honestly think this is the best thing for him.

Maybe 6 years down the line when Nick announces the next Avatar series or something he can come back. That would be nice.
Click to expand...
Your real life is more important than your virtual one. It's good that he's focusing on what really matters.
 
K

Kinvara

Member
Veelk said:
Frankly, I think the same about what your doing.

When I say provide a reason for why it's not the case, I'm not asking you to prove a negative, what I mean is you have to invalidate the case I have built for why the humanity IS a part of the earth. Because I feel I've provided a pretty good explanation for how the actions of nations affect the earth, and you're only counter to that is "Nuh-uh" without really providing a reason for why my reasons don't work. If the planet cares about the life that's on it, what excludes humanity from that care? If it does cares about 'humans and their actions" then by extension they HAVE to care about the nations, because that's how humanity defines itself and decides what actions it takes as a society. There would be no 'petty/irrelevent war' if it weren't for the fact that fire nations humans had certain beliefs about governance.

Your disagreement with me relies on arguing that the planet is indifferent to the biggest source of impact on it's global ecosystem.
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I never said that humanity is not a part of the planet. It's simply not an essential one as humans are dependent upon the planet and not the other way around. Why do you keep asking me this?

If the position of avatar is incredibly old, humanity in its early days would have had very little effect on the global ecosystem as a whole. It was only until relatively recently that our population became large enough to cause climate change.

If you wanted the avatar to represent the "planet spirit" the plot would have to be re-worked to make it as such.

But as it exists in its current form, the avatar of A:TLA works to mediate human conflicts and human/spirit conflicts. Environmental concerns are only tangentially related to the avatar's duties.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
Kinvara said:
I never said that humanity is not a part of the planet. It's simply not an essential one as humans are dependent upon the planet and not the other way around. Why do you keep asking me this?

If the position of avatar is incredibly old, humanity in its early days would have had very little effect on the global ecosystem as a whole. It was only until relatively recently that our population became large enough to cause climate change.

But as it exists in its current form, the avatar of A:TLA works to mediate human relationships with each other and human/spirit conflicts. Environmental concerns are only tangentially related to the avatar's duties.
Click to expand...

As far as we know, global warming isn't an issue in the avatar world, I was just illustrating a point to how people affecting the planet affects people. But you don't have to go that far, you can look back at older days where armies would raze fields so that villagers of enemy territories wouldn't be able to eat. People have been affecting the earth since early days

But you might argue that that's small stuff the planet wouldn't care about? Well, obviously not. The Panda spirit makes a pretty big ruckus over just the death one rainforest. The spirit of the river that Katara impersonated was grateful they cleaned up the river. Those are small, tiny places of the earth, but the spririts of those places care. The planet, being the spirit of the planet, would care what happens to it, even on smaller scales. The only way you'd argue otherwise is if you think those spirits are somehow completely seperated from the spirit of the planet, which again, goes against the series mythos as specified in the Swamp episode.

Hell, the episode where Katara impersonates the river spirit is literally all about this. The main cause of the conflict of the episode is the people suffering. Why are they suffering? Because they can't get food. Why can't they get food? Because the river is polluted. Why is the river polluted? Because Fire Nation is running a factory up the river. The fire nation soldiers aren't directlly abusing any of the citizens, they are only hurting the environment, which in turn hurts the citizen, but their suffering is neither their intention nor their goal. I can't think of a clearer depiction of "You take care of the planet, it takes care of you."

The planet doesn't need to 'depend' on humanity when it has a huge influence over it. it's not about dependance, it's about co-existance. The only way your argument works is if you are only framing the situation that the planet can only either hate or be indifferent to people, when I am arguing that it cares about people and wants to live together with them. You may see this as an unusual gesture of altruism, and you wouldn't be wrong, but how is that altruism different from a random spirit rejecting nirvana to stay and help others out?

This is why I don't understand why you are so hung up about this. Planet or random spirit, the point is that they are altruistically seeking to have people live in harmony with themselves and the spirits and the planet. It's all the same thing in the end.

If you wanted the avatar to represent the "planet spirit" the plot would have to be re-worked to make it as such.
Click to expand...

You can keep saying this as much as you like, but you've yet to specify any contradiction existing in the series that makes the planet interpretation unworkable. I'm not altering or ignoring anything in depicted. Specifically, point out what would be have been impossible (And I mean impossible, not unlikely according to what I consider flawed perception of the Planet's character, but actually impossible) to happen if it were the planet spirit to random altruistic spirit?
 
B

BKatastrophe

Member
I leave this thread for a couple of hours, and this is what happens

tumblr_ngdxvckhcC1sortl3o1_500.gif
 
K

Kinvara

Member
Veelk said:
You can keep saying this as much as you like, but you've yet to specify any contradiction existing in the series that makes the planet interpretation unworkable. I'm not altering or ignoring anything in depicted. Specifically, point out what would be have been impossible (And I mean impossible, not unlikely according to what I consider flawed perception of the Planet's character, but actually impossible) to happen if it were the planet spirit to random altruistic spirit?
Click to expand...

Technically, no interpretation is impossible. But some interpretations are more strongly supported than others.
 
M

m_shortpants

Member
Lethe82 said:
I'm going in balls deep, I can never run out of good things to say about Korra when people are trashing it.
Click to expand...

Yeah. I disagree with those who say it's complete trash. I enjoyed season 3 and season 1 a lot, I'd say the same as TLA if not more at times.

But i really hated season 2 and 4. so eh.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
Kinvara said:
Technically, no interpretation is impossible. But some interpretations are more strongly supported than others.
Click to expand...

I could not agree more. Which is why I am asking. I'm not asking to prove my interpretation is 'impossible', I'm asking for the impossible thing that would make my interpretation unlikely. The contradiction, the thing that if my interpretation is true cannot happen.

The long and short of this, as I see it, is that I've supported my interpretation with both practical evidence of how humanity and the planet interact, as well as explicit episodes that convey morals that are reinforce the notions of which I am speaking of. I don't know what other proof I could conceivably give save for it being outright being explicitly stated in the show.

Now, as a counter to my argument, you've stated the plot would need to be reworked, implying it can't work now. Meaning there must be an outright contradiction to my interpretation. That is the impossible thing I am asking for. Like if my interpretation was that Aang was a psychopath, then you could list a number of acts of caring and altruism that he performed that are the impossible things that would occur if that interpretation was true. So I'm not asking for a negative, a contradiction is a thing that can be outright pointed out. It is an irregularity. Something that would not happen if my interpretation was applicable, so all you have to do is point out that impossible thing, the contradiction.

I've done my part and gave evidence for my argument. If you're going to make this a matter of support, I am still awaiting yours. What specific part of the plot does not fit?
 
K

Kinvara

Member
Veelk said:
I could not agree more. Which is why I am asking. I'm not asking to prove my interpretation is 'impossible', I'm asking for the impossible thing that would make my interpretation unlikely. The contradiction, the thing that if my interpretation is true cannot happen.

The long and short of this, as I see it, is that I've supported my interpretation with both practical evidence of how humanity and the planet interact, as well as explicit episodes that convey morals that are reinforce the notions of which I am speaking of. I don't know what other proof I could conceivably give save for it being outright being explicitly stated in the show.

Now, as a counter to my argument, you've stated the plot would need to be reworked, implying it can't work now. Meaning there must be an outright contradiction to my interpretation. That is the impossible thing I am asking for. Like if my interpretation was that Aang was a psychopath, then you could list a number of acts of caring and altruism that he performed that are the impossible things that would occur if that interpretation was true. So I'm not asking for a negative, a contradiction is a thing that can be outright pointed out. It is an irregularity. Something that would not happen if my interpretation was applicable, so all you have to do is point out that impossible thing, the contradiction.

I've done my part and gave evidence for my argument. If you're going to make this a matter of support, I am still awaiting yours. What specific part of the plot does not fit?
Click to expand...

By "rework" I mean place more emphasis on the planet/environment within the context of the overarching plot of the series other than just one or two episodes. Otherwise, there's not much to support such an interpretation as it wasn't what the writers intended.

I know you don't give a crap about authorial intent but in cases like this you're not going to find much within the series when the author(s) had different ideas in mind.

If you want a specific example, when Aang opens his chakras- the final one is where he accesses the cosmic energy of the avatar spirit.

If the avatar spirit and the planetary spirit were one and the same unlocking the final chakra would've allowed him to access the planet's energy and not be from a cosmic source.
 
F

FeenixRising

Banned
Ok, am I trippin or do I not see anything remotely hinting at an Avatar continuation in her tweet. All she said was she had no clue, and she's working on a new project which no one can guess.

News outlets are taking that shit and running with it and are bound to be let down
 
V

Veelk

Banned
Kinvara said:
By "rework" I mean place more emphasis on the planet/environment within the context of the overarching plot of the series other than just one or two episodes.
Click to expand...

Why? This goes back to my much earlier point of this debate being pointless because whether the Avatar is the planet spirit or not is not the point of most of the story. The story is about how the Aang fulfills his duties. The avatar's origin doesn't need to be emphasized (and it basically wasn't. That's why we're even having this debate. The only things we knew about the avatar were a few rules, not where he came from until LoK cleared that up for us), the clues just need to be there enough to be functionally applicable. Whatever details we're quibbling about, we both agree that he is a spiritually powered being whose tasked with bringing peace the world in general, and that's what story centers on.

If you want a specific example, when Aang opens his chakras- the final one is where he accesses the cosmic energy of the avatar spirit.

If the avatar spirit and the planetary spirit were one and the same unlocking the final chakra would've allowed him to access the planet's energy and not be from a cosmic source.
Click to expand...

What do you consider the planet spirit if not a cosmic entity? That's exactly what I thought the Giant Space Ghost Aang was.
 
F

FeenixRising

Banned
"If the Earth Kingdom discovers us we'll be killed!"

"If the Fire Nation discovers us they'll turn us over to Azula."

...

...

"Earth Kingdom it is."
 
V

Veelk

Banned
Kinvara said:
No, cosmic implies something far much more than that not only just the planet but the entire universe.
Click to expand...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cosmic

Definitions 2 and 3 seem like to apply to me. Hell, I'd say even 1 does, since the planet exists in outer space, Aang meets it while in outer space...Seems like it fits to me. A being on a planetary scale traveling through outer space is cosmic as far as I can tell. I do assume there is a greater spirit of the entire universe somewhere out there though. That might be a cool plotline to explore if we ever get a good writer back on the series again.


Edit: honestly, if it were the universe, I'm amazed at how utterly weak the avatar state is. The height of AS's power seems to be being able to bend very large things rather easily, but a universal power source should like...warp reality with it's strength. Like, we are talking big bang, black hole event horizon power levels. I'm pretty sure even DBZ didn't get power levels this high. Maybe the human body can only process so much power from the universe, even from AS. Because someone using the entire universes energy in their bending should shoot fire at several billion degrees kelvin. Someone earthbending would have to be careful not to crush or split the entire planet. An airbender could move the entire earth's atmosphere. That level of power is just beyond comprehension.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
JadedWriter said:
Reading Veelk arguments is like reading this:
Click to expand...

That might actually be a bad thing for me. I dislike backing down from arguments, but I get the feeling that between this and the canon argument, Kinvara really hates me at this point. I don't intend to come across as a jerk in these things...
 
J

JadedWriter

Member
Veelk said:
That might actually be a bad thing for me. I dislike backing down from arguments, but I get the feeling that between this and the canon argument, Kinvara really hates me at this point. I don't intend to come across as a jerk in these things...
Click to expand...
I don't know her but Kinvara really doesn't seem like a hateful person.
 
K

Kinvara

Member
Veelk said:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cosmic

Definitions 2 and 3 seem like to apply to me. Hell, I'd say even 1 does, since the planet exists in outer space, Aang meets it while in outer space...Seems like it fits to me. A being on a planetary scale traveling through outer space is cosmic as far as I can tell. I do assume there is a greater spirit of the entire universe somewhere out there though. That might be a cool plotline to explore if we ever get a good writer back on the series again.


Edit: honestly, if it were the universe, I'm amazed at how utterly weak the avatar state is. The height of AS's power seems to be being able to bend very large things rather easily, but a universal power source should like...warp reality with it's strength. Like, we are talking big bang, black hole event horizon power levels. I'm pretty sure even DBZ didn't get power levels this high. Maybe the human body can only process so much power from the universe, even from AS. Because someone using the entire universes energy in their bending should shoot fire at several billion degrees kelvin. Someone earthbending would have to be careful not to crush or split the entire planet. An airbender could move the entire earth's atmosphere. That level of power is just beyond comprehension.
Click to expand...

The Avatar State is pretty OP as it exists in the series. Like with any magical/fantasy stuff, at some point the writers have to decide "okay we're going to stop right here" or things just get stupid.

I share the same opinion/interpretation as you. The human body can only handle so much energy so this is what keeps the Avatar State in check and we don't have avatars becoming practically gods. At that point, it defeats the purpose of having the avatar being in a human body.

I think Naruto entered stupid territory when
Pain literally resurrected everyone that had died.
Dropped the series shortly after that.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
Kinvara said:
The Avatar State is pretty OP as it exists in the series. Like with any magical/fantasy stuff, at some point the writers have to decide "okay we're going to stop right here" or things just get stupid.

I think Naruto entered stupid territory when
Pain literally resurrected everyone that had died.
Dropped the series shortly after that.
Click to expand...

Naruto got worse with that bs, actually.
Eventually Sasuke gets a power that literally rewrites reality
. That's basically being god at that point. Naruto was just the worst.
 
3

360pages

Member
Veelk said:
Naruto got worse with that bs, actually.
Eventually Sasuke gets a power that literally rewrites reality
. That's basically being god at that point. Naruto was just the worst.
Click to expand...

I do think one thing about Naruto is that they make their villains just as OP as the main characters. Something the Avatar super Lacks.

The Avatarverse is kind of in a weird state that no one can get any stronger technically. Either a villain is too weak that you wonder why the Avatar doesn't go into the Avatar state and end the problem instantly or they are so strong that everyone but the Avatar might as well not shown up to the fight.

Which means we can't have story will a fully realized Avatar, and every story featuring the Avatar will have to hit the same points, least you have to constantly create situations to where the character can't use their awesome power which frustrates the viewer.

I think Series Like JoJo avoids this pitfall by having almost every character being able to do something the others can't including the main character.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
360pages said:
I do think one thing about Naruto is that they make their villains just as OP as the main characters. Something the Avatar super Lacks.

The Avatarverse is kind of in a weird state that no one can get any stronger technically. Either a villain is too weak that you wonder why the Avatar doesn't go into the Avatar state and end the problem instantly or they are so strong that everyone but the Avatar might as well not shown up to the fight.

Which means we can't have story will a fully realized Avatar, and every story featuring the Avatar will have to hit the same points, least you have to constantly create situations to where the character can't use their awesome power which frustrates the viewer.

I think Series Like JoJo avoids this pitfall by having almost every character being able to do something the others can't including the main character.
Click to expand...

To make that work though, you have to have power levels organized well, or atleast varied so that they all have logical weaknesses of some sort. I think the power system I'm most impressed with is actually the Dresden File's. There is so much variety and utility to the magic system alone that you can have essentially infinite varieties in battles against evenly powered wizards alone....and that's not counting everyone who uses other things than the magic system. And the power levels go anywhere from "Puppy dog" to "Slightly less powerful than God"

But in Avatar, the way the universe is set up, you could have conflicts pretty easy just by negating the powers application. Like, lets say that Korra wasn't experiencing PTSD and Kuvira was a revolutionary that is taking some shady tactics but also legitimately working towards the betterment of the earth kingdom. Even if Korra could just crush her with the avatar state, that won't resolve the conflict in a good way, so the AS isn't really useful in that situation. This is the biggest sticking point of LoK that seperates it from TLA, even in the 'good' seasons. It forgot that it isn't all about whose got the bigger bending muscles.
 
J

JadedWriter

Member
360pages said:
I do think one thing about Naruto is that they make their villains just as OP as the main characters. Something the Avatar super Lacks.

The Avatarverse is kind of in a weird state that no one can get any stronger technically. Either a villain is too weak that you wonder why the Avatar doesn't go into the Avatar state and end the problem instantly or they are so strong that everyone but the Avatar might as well not shown up to the fight.

Which means we can't have story will a fully realized Avatar, and every story featuring the Avatar will have to hit the same points, least you have to constantly create situations to where the character can't use their awesome power which frustrates the viewer.

I think Series Like JoJo avoids this pitfall by having almost every character being able to do something the others can't including the main character.
Click to expand...
The second half of Stardust Crusaders are really showing the potential of stands. Yeah pretty much only Korra could've defeated Amon, but they needed a Deus Ex to do it and nobody was on Unalaq's bending level so when they put him up against any of Korra's goons they got their asses kicked, Red Lotus was only beatable in the last two episodes. Before that they just carved through people essentially. Even in Jojo beating a stand is usually a group effort depending on what type of stand it is. Some you need to brute force your way through and others require group strategy...others are just fucking hilarious dumb luck like Oingo Boingo.
 
T

Trey

Member
m_shortpants said:
I spoke to him a few times via Twitter here and there and I honestly think this is the best thing for him.

Maybe 6 years down the line when Nick announces the next Avatar series or something he can come back. That would be nice.
Click to expand...

I think he thought I had it out for him. I just liked talking to him, which is why I responded to his posts. He was a good person - enthusiastic about this franchise. Like everyone still posting in this thread.

It's a real family feel, and I hope Azula in particular finds his salvation.
 
3

360pages

Member
Veelk said:
To make that work though, you have to have power levels organized well, or atleast varied so that they all have logical weaknesses of some sort. I think the power system I'm most impressed with is actually the Dresden File's. There is so much variety and utility to the magic system alone that you can have essentially infinite varieties in battles against evenly powered wizards alone....and that's not counting everyone who uses other things than the magic system. And the power levels go anywhere from "Puppy dog" to "Slightly less powerful than God"

But in Avatar, the way the universe is set up, you could have conflicts pretty easy just by negating the powers application. Like, lets say that Korra wasn't experiencing PTSD and Kuvira was a revolutionary that is taking some shady tactics but also legitimately working towards the betterment of the earth kingdom. Even if Korra could just crush her with the avatar state, that won't resolve the conflict in a good way, so the AS isn't really useful in that situation. This is the biggest sticking point of LoK that seperates it from TLA, even in the 'good' seasons. It forgot that it isn't all about whose got the bigger bending muscles.
Click to expand...

OnePiece is also really good with that. And you are right, but I think the big problem with Korra is almost everything is solved with violence. Once again, this isn't bad, plenty of great series have a huge amount of fights. It's more about the context of the fight and how they play out.

The less it focused on actual martial arts the more I start to wonder why they weren't doing more interesting things with their bending if they weren't going to stick with those forms and ideas. I know it's a kid how, but they could do so much more with bending yet most fights still play out about the same.

Never once was their was a situation where someone was attacking them from an unknown location using their bending and they had to find out where they were.
 
K

Kinvara

Member
JadedWriter said:
I don't know her but Kinvara really doesn't seem like a hateful person.
Click to expand...

Hatred is the only emotion I have left.

Veelk said:
Naruto got worse with that bs, actually.
Eventually Sasuke gets a power that literally rewrites reality
. That's basically being god at that point. Naruto was just the worst.
Click to expand...

I've always hated Sasuke but that just makes me hate him even more.

Also:
Check this out.

I'd say the avatar is capable of feats in the 10 billion joule range at most which pales in comparison to the sheer power of natural events such as a hurricane or volcano let alone the entire planet/universe.

It's nice to have real world comparisons to help contextualize things. Some anime characters should technically be able to obliterate the entire planet they live on.

tumblr_inline_nd0d4sgVvK1s0nt06.gif
 
3

360pages

Member
Icyflamez96 said:
Wait what power are you referring to exactly?
Click to expand...

I think he's talking about his ability to switch places with certain objects and the way they go about explaining it.

Then again, by the end of the series, Naruto/Sasuke have enough abilities to fill out an entire roster o most other series.
 
I

Icyflamez96

Member
360pages said:
I think he's talking about his ability to switch places with certain objects and the way they go about explaining it.

Then again, by the end of the series, Naruto/Sasuke have enough abilities to fill out an entire roster o most other series.
Click to expand...

Hm that's weird. I wouldn't describe that as a "reality rewriting" power at all. Much more accurate to describe it as a "switching places with other objects power." Although I forgot the exact explanation behind it, I don't think I'd classify it as that kind of power either way.

Something like Izanagi would be "reality rewriting"

Well if whatever explanation behind it classifies it as a reality rewriting technique, then I guess I can't argue with facts. Still seems weird though.

FeenixRising said:
Young Toph the gawdess!!!!!! I bet Naruto fans on the YT comments are having melt downs
Click to expand...

Yeah they're pissed, but to be fair, Toph shouldn't have won.
 
K

Kinvara

Member
Lethe82 said:
Someone made an alternate ending to Korra Season 4. I kind of prefer it if only because it fleshes out the development Korra has gone through as a character and reaffirms the place she is at now even more strongly. It ommits KorrAsami, but as an ending I feel that being this Korra centric is better. Still love me my Korra and Asami though, and I still like it as a part of the ending to be sure, but as a capstone this is pretty nice.

The person who made it is a Mako/Korra shipper but eh, I like everything after it just implying that.

except the song played over everything

http://vimeo.com/117340816
Click to expand...

ehhhh...

It didn't do anything that differently except remove korrasami. Like, ok.

JadedWriter said:
Damn. I'm just full of ambivalence half the time.
Click to expand...

lol That was a joke. You're right. I'm not a hateful person at all.

Unfortunately, people walk all over me because of it.

Icyflamez96 said:
Toph vs Gaara death battle is out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGbN_fIoX0o
Click to expand...

Toph <3
 
3

360pages

Member
Death Battle is weird, mostly because some of the matches are super silly and some of them are super onesided.

I love Kirby, he is legit my favorite Nintendo Mascot...but in no way shape of capacity should he have beaten Buu. Yet it happened...I was there, it confused me and I don't think I will ever recover. (This is a joke)
 
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