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The Legend of Korra: Book 4 |OT2| ALL HAIL THE GREAT UNITER
- Thread starter Toa TAK
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Infinite Justice
Member
There is a reason they kept posting those Spongebob laughing spots during segments of the show (usually when she's in some shit oddly enough).
:trollface
I need to see the after part
just
" you have a vistor"
jr walks in
"oh.... hey ... how ya doing you know I love you ri.. "
" what the actual"
" I know stuff went side ways ... but it was for u..."
" You tried to kill me "
" that is true "
I will fully admit to being out of my depth here (since I dropped Naruto shortly after... Sakura punched a doll thing, it got bad after that arc) but if in writing it the people who mastered the technique could not break those rules, then they are pretty much hard coded (unless a plot comes along with one character who manages to break them and even then unless shown otherwise would be an exception). I mean using the technique to change 'anything' would involve massively expanding the scope and duration of the technique well beyond the stated and shown limitations; I highly doubt that characters weren't using it to their maxim simply because it never occurred to them to travel back in time and kill their opponent as a baby because that technically involved them as a part of the earth.
Do we have evidence of it actually re-writing reality, as 'oh suddenly I remember that my killing blow didin't connect and he's still up because he has this technique' or does it seem more along the lines of ripping a hole in space time and the guy say 'nah'.
PS: Narruto is stupid.
Infinite Justice
Member
Madara apparently came back to life after he legit died by (willingly) scheduling a post mortem activation of the technique then he hid his tracks lol
Also i don't think there was any direct reference that what was discussed was actually attempted and said to not have worked (which as you said would have placed some sort of hard coded limit and shutdown a section of Veelk's argument lol) but is instead assumed since the character who used it the most didn't do any of that (when he could have just not attempted it at all).
I love that she hails Kuvira as much as I do.
m_shortpants
Member
The Legend of Korra: Book 4 |OT2| THE GREAT THIRST, FAN ART, CRACK SHIPS, EGGS BENEDICT, AND NARUTO
Icyflamez96
Member
It's based of a vague explanation of the technique. In the show/manga, it was explained that you can make an event that happens to you merely a dream, thus creating a new reality for yourself, but just because they didn't explicitly state limits, doesn't mean there aren't any. It's makes much more sense to draw assumptions on the limits of the techniques based on feats rather than just assuming they could do more with it than they did. All the times it was used, it was only to negate a certain death they would have had in that recent moment. So we can assume based on that, that there are relatively strict limits on what they (Obito, Madara, and Danzo) had the ability to do with the technique based on how it was actually put into practice.
Yeah that doesn't have anything to do with Izanagi itself, it's just a thing were some Uchiha can "program" their eye into force activating a sharingan technique under certain circumstances. Madara "programmed" his eye to activate izanagi to revive himself after a certain amount of time passed, and it would activate as long as the eye was still intact regardless of whether he himself was alive or not. Itachi also did it with his eye. When Sasuke had his eyes, Itachi programmed it to use Amaterasu as soon as it was in reasonable range of Obito, because he wanted to prevent Obito from telling Sasuke the truth about him.
I mean you may have already knew that, but saying just in case.
Well, all I can say is that I really wish you were Kishimoto's editor so all of this could be stuff that actually happened instead of grasping at straws to make sense out of what is plainly bad writing.
Icyflamez96
Member
There are a lot of obvious stupid things about Naruto, but I personally don't think it's completely fair to try to put on your own rules about what could have been done with the technique and knock it for that when the limits here were heavily implied, in my opinion.
Though, the fact that we're having this conversation proves that it could have been handled better.
FeenixRising
Banned
I sail Kuvira too. Oh you said hail.... that too
No, the problem is that you don't seem to understand what 'rewrite reality' means. I'm not putting my own interpretation on anything, I'm pointing out the inherent contradiction of being having limits on a power defined by removing limitations.
Though if a character had tried it and failed...well, I would have also questioned why it failed, but atleast then it'd have actually established that the limits are immutable.
Icyflamez96
Member
I understand completely what rewriting reality means, and that's precisely what the technique does. It rewrites reality. That's not saying there are no limits to what you can rewrite. Again, they said it makes a certain event that happens to you merely a dream. All of the times it was used, it was to change something that happened right before it's activation.
You can't rewrite the laws of how the technique works. You can't just wish you had unlimited sharingan, because you can only negate something that already happened to you within (as it's been shown) a fairly brief time frame. That's it. You can only make it so something that happened to you very recently, didn't happen, and you get another chance at it. If you trip on a rock and fall, you can negate it so you didn't trip on a rock and fall. What all are you saying you could possibly do with this technique?
Speaking of sails, I'm pretty sure she's actually the only person in the world that keeps with that KuviraxBataar Jr. ship. Because I doubt even Bryke did.
JadedWriter
Member
Same here. I ship, hail and swab every deck of every ship.
FeenixRising
Banned
Yea, she is the main one still pushing that ship, many people moved on to shipping her with Korra (Nikkipet, Sleepysenshi) , Suyin (hattersarts, Windbloom, Sleepysenshi) , Opal (Sleepysenshi... again) or the obligatory Lin ship ( rin-trash, sskuvira, hattersarts)
Then you have that one nocturnal bird...
As I just said, if you think there can be limits, you don't understand what it means to rewrite reality. I've already explained how that power, by it's very definition, cannot be limited by anything in my earlier posts, so you can reread those because explaining it would just be redundant.
Or, to put it another way, imagine you are a character in a novel. Now imagine that just for 5 minutes, you can become the author of that novel you are in. Think about what that even means. Why the hell would the perception of time in a novel apply to time outside of the novel. How would that even happen? If there is no writing/reading being done, the universe effectively freezes at the page you are on. How can the progression of time in the novel possibly apply to you outside off the novel? It makes no sense. Similarly, there is no such thing as 'recent' when you exist outside time. Everything to what happened 2 seconds ago all the way back to the Big Bang are of equal distance.
If you can rewrite reality, you are God. Omnipotent. If you aren't, then you are working within reality and you can't rewrite it from there.
Icyflamez96
Member
I just think you don't quite get the fundamentals of the technique. I will keep repeating this, because it's crucial.
The technique allows you to take a recent event that happened to you, and make it so it didn't happen. In doing that, and only that, you are essentially rewriting reality. It was never said that you could rewrite anything. It's just that, because of the fact that the technique allows the user to negate something that already happened to them, and make it so it didn't happen, that would be basically rewriting reality. You see? You can rewrite reality, but only under the circumstances of taking something that happened to you recently, and making it so it didn't happen.
So if you fall off of a cliff, you can change it so you didn't fall off of a cliff. No where in those rules allows you to imagine that a bridge exists between the gap. You literally can't do anything else but make it so something that happened to you, didn't happen. By those rules, it's impossible to just change whatever you want to change.
She still believes that her ship will resurface from the bottom of the ocean.
Right, this is going nowhere. So lets just agree to disagree that you're not wrong.
Icyflamez96
Member
sounds like a plan
The amount of dumb stuff in Naruto is staggering. You got eye illusions and dimensional teleportation. You can summon shit from any distance and anywhere by putting some blood on a scroll. People can make clones of themselves at will. One dude controlled gravity or something. You seal up literal forces of nature inside people and wonder why they grow up lonely and/or sociopathic.
Izanagi is on the more tame side of Naruto buffoonery if you ask me, lol. Shonen doesn't try very hard to make sense.
Izanagi is on the more tame side of Naruto buffoonery if you ask me, lol. Shonen doesn't try very hard to make sense.
Icyflamez96
Member
I like all that stuff, except the bolded... The bolded is stupid. One of the big reasons I generally like the universe of Naruto is because of all of the variety in techniques and abilities.
Edit: Oops I read that wrong... I'm fine with that too...
I thought you were referring to how Uchihas have a genetic trait to go crazy or something
Hehehehehe
Icyflamez96
Member
wait are you trying to confuse me
Edit: Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow I think I just fully understood what that meant
Infinite Justice
Member
Its kinda shocking seeing both points just flying over each other's head :O
And there it is.
It was a technique that wasn't clearly defined to the point that assumptions had to be made on whether its limited or limitless due to its nature.
I'm personally a fan of Izanami since its basically a endless programming loop that can be resolved if it hits a certain variable but the chances of that variable is usually very slim.
Still OP eye magic bullshit like what the rest of the series turned into though
And there it is.
It was a technique that wasn't clearly defined to the point that assumptions had to be made on whether its limited or limitless due to its nature.
I'm personally a fan of Izanami since its basically a endless programming loop that can be resolved if it hits a certain variable but the chances of that variable is usually very slim.
Still OP eye magic bullshit like what the rest of the series turned into though
That took me much longer to figure out than it should've.
Like the Titanic, amirite?
Infinite Justice
Member
Pre-timeskip was that for me tbh (had some dumb stuff but was still passable), most of the post -timeskip (except meeting Itachi for the first time, that was dope as hell) went so far in dumb territory that i bailed (saw the ending because lol why not).
For storytelling purposes, the technique needs a weakness (unless the writer wants it to be OP, but that's a different thing), but my point is I'm not sure what limitations could be put on it that seem logical or rational or just doesn't seem arbitrary. Just saying 'Can't do X' is different from saying "Can't do X because..."
Icyflamez96
Member
The only limit not explicitly defined is just how far you can go back, but going off of how it was used, we can only logically assume that you can't go back very far.
I don't feel like my point has been directly addressed, or fully understood.
The stated, and clearly defined rules of the jutsu are
-You can make something that happened to you, merely a dream, so that it essentially didn't happen.
That means you can't just imagine anything you want to imagine and make it reality. You can only make it so something that happened directly to you, didn't happen. Tell me, how could you possibly go rewriting everything in history, or rewriting the laws so you can become a god, with those clearly stated limitations?
I've been checking out some more Owler. That girl has skills.
JadedWriter
Member
Even Kuvira didn't ship that ship. She said Korra's name in the show way more than Bataar's.
No offense but you absolutely are. There are literally thousands of powers based upon removing limitations, including reality manipulation, that have some sort of explicit or inferred limitations. The only way you can be right is if you are able to prove that 'reality manipulation' in and of itself is always a limitless technique and even then that is based on the idea of homogeneity between all reality manipulation. Just because it manipulates reality does not mean that the scope of the power is actually limitless.
And the way this technique works it seems to operate on the 'I just punched a whole in space time and broke the rules of reality' rather than 'suddenly the universe rearranged itself from everyone's perspective so that I never took the car drip that ended up crashing' or whatnot.
Infinite Justice
Member
Because if it can effect you and your existence it could effect anyone/anything else or their existence since you are all part of that reality, unless there is some clear reason why it wouldn't/couldn't work (losing your eyesight permanently was a psudo-reason was until "lol overuled").
And its not like a vortex or some time flip or some strict genjustu where it seems you were affected by something but actually wasn't, you literally can undo your fate (if used well).
I think its the use of the word "reality" that's throwing people off
Icyflamez96
Member
It doesn't effect anyone else's existence but your own. The times it has been shown, it literally affects the only the user himself, not anyone else around him. It's also been stated in the manga that the genjustsu can only be casted on yourself. It effects nothing else but your state of existence. You can't use it to directly effect other people or other things.
Loosing your eyesight forever is the consequence of using the technique. Only under super rare/specific circumstances will you have implanted 7 sharingans into your arm like danzo did, and of course it's super dang holy omgbbq rare that anyone would gain the Rinnegan after using it. That's what happened to Madara, but Madara is Madara. Itachi talked about the history of the usage of the technique, and how people lost that eye forever. I'm quite sure that people gaining the Rinnegan after wasn't a common occurrence.
Because if it can effect you and your existence it could effect anyone/anything else or their existence since you are all part of that reality, unless there is some clear reason why it wouldn't/couldn't work (losing your eyesight permanently was a psudo-reason was until "lol overuled").
And its not like a vortex or some time flip or some strict genjustu where it seems you were affected by something but actually wasn't, you literally can undo your fate (if used well).
I think its the use of the word "reality" that's throwing people off
This is like saying 'because a Magma bender can turn this block into lava, clearly he can then turn the entire planet into lava within the same stance'. The power has an extremely limited duration and proximity and doesn't re-write reality as a whole, it just takes that specific thing that occurred to the practitioner and replaces it on a technicality of the actual consequence.
I mean, maybe you could say 'well there was this girl I liked and we talked and I totally embarrassed myself so now that's a dream, and maybe that works, but everything I looked up on this ability shows that it simply negates the effect of a particular event from the user and doesn't alter the memory/perception of others.
It's pretty low key reality manipulation actually.
Infinite Justice
Member
But nothing is seemingly stopping it from happening due to its inherent nature and assumptions due to some dude not doing it.
If it was just enforced well (hell let madara say he tried it but it didn't work somehow) and i don't think such questions would appear (though Veelk will more likely question those).
Also it would remove the idiot ball defense of the user but that's just me not being a fan of those shonen tropes
Icyflamez96
Member
Huh. I don't get what you're saying here.
Yeah, but if that were the case, atleast the story would acknowledge that there is a massive contradiction in the logic of what it is capable of doing. I wouldn't even necessarily need to know the answer of what is preventing it, but I could then atleast assume there is some outside force that's stopping it rather than just a clear and massive oversight on part of the author.
See? You do not understand what it means to rewrite reality. I'm glad you admit it. Now if you could just realize the fallaciousness of circular reasoning, we'd be solid.
But nothing is seemingly stopping it from happening due to its inherent nature and assumptions due to some dude not doing it.
If it was just enforced well (hell let madara say he tried it but it didn't work somehow) and i don't think such questions would appear (though Veelk will more likely question those).
Also it would remove the idiot ball defense of the user but that's just me not being a fan of those shonen tropes
It's far more likely that the ability was never seen cast on another because you can't than it is no one thought to do try when developing this ability.
Icyflamez96
Member
There is no contradiction.
The rules say you can only take something that happened to you and make it so it didn't happen. It doesn't directly effect anyone else in anyway, or anything else but the user's state. Those are the rules. No contradictions. You can't become a god within those rules.
You keep throwing around the term "circular logic" instead of just directly addressing my point.
There is no contradiction whatsoever with the rules, and how it was (and wasn't) used in the show.
Go on. Tell me how you can rewrite reality to become a god when the rules clearly state that you can only take an event that happened to you (like a fatal wound), and make it so it didn't happen. The genjutsu is casted on yourself. It doesn't change the state of anyone, or anything else.
Icyflamez96
Member
It was also stated that you can't cast it on anyone else. Bam. There are your rules. Follow them people. The justu is only casted on yourself, and only effects your immediate state. Nothing else.
The entire reasoning for which to counter this has already been explained in my previous posts, and Infinite Justice is also understanding why if you can affect one part of reality, there is no reason you shouldn't affect any part and the entirety of reality, because it is all one thing. A particular individuals existence does not exist in a separate reality from the rest of the world. I don't want to get into this again, because I have already explained why what you say does not apply and you're just not getting it.
Similarly, your argument for why users couldn't do that is because they didn't. And your saying they didn't because they couldn't. As infinite justice pointed out, if they tried, but they couldn't, that'd be a whole different argument, since then we'd know there is something external preventing the possibility of reality manipulation taking place. But we don't get that, we just get people not doing it for no reason, which you assume must mean they couldn't and they couldn't because they didn't.
http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/67-circular-reasoning
Here, read up on that to understand why your argument is very bad and not admissible.
JadedWriter
Member
I'm going to go to sleep, wake up, log in at work and these two will still be battling it out I know it.
That Dude John
Member
I coulda sworn they agreed to disagree.
We agreed to disagree that he was not wrong. He's the one going back on that agreement.
Icyflamez96
Member
Why can you only effect one part of reality? Because those are the rules. Do you realize you're literally questioning "why can't we just break the rules!" The rules were stated, and the show/manga followed those rules in execution. You can only negate something that happened to you, that's it. That's rewriting reality, sure. Why do you keep questioning why they can't go further with re writing reality at this point? I told you, multiple times, that in the show/manga, they explain that you can only take something that happened to you, and make it so it didn't happen to you. Those were the rules, clearly set by the source material, and those rules were followed. The show didn't contradict crap.
They couldn't do it because the rules were set up that way. Why in the world would they even try to imagine a reality where they are just god somehow when they themselves are already aware of the rules? Why do you keep saying it's bad writing because they didn't attempt to break the rules?
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