Asami? Pema? Suyin (I know JadedWriter is gonna object, but she was perfectly normal to her hubby)? Opal? Zhu li?
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The Legend of Korra: Book 4 |OT2| ALL HAIL THE GREAT UNITER
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JadedWriter
Member
Bataar Sr knew his place. Still convinced his testicles are housed somewhere in that necklace she wears.
I was talking more about the lead. Though I'd say Asami, Pema and Suyin have different flaws that prevent them from being decent female characters.
FeenixRising
Banned
Asami just gonna sit there and let Mako treat her like shit
Pema is a got damn home wrecker, and she goes and gives Korra advice to do the same thing. Plus she acts defensive every time Lin and Tenzin are together,
Fuck Su!!!
Opal is.... Well.... Opal, she's there.
Well, they're in a badly written show in general, but they were normal girlfriends /wives. Not 'perfect' as in they made any mistakes, but their relationships were typical.
JadedWriter
Member
Pema existed to be a baby factory.
They were fine as that. Though Pema entire ordeal and how she got with Tenzin was kind of scummy. Though as you said, a large portion of the stuff was the fact that they were poorly written.
Asami herself is barely a character in the first 3 seasons.
We didn't really get into the nitty-gritty of their relationships. Which is bs on part of the writers, but with brykes penchant for family drama, they'd have included her feeling undervalued.
The Tenzin - pema relationship isn't badly written because of unfortunate implications mean he just wanted to use her for kids, it's because it's lack of focus means we don't have much info on it.
JadedWriter
Member
By the end of the series Asami was nothing more than a prize you would get after finishing a box of cereal.
Tenzin went to her for advice at times...Korra did too. Korra received shit advice, but I think she did a better job of helping Tenzin. Pema's kind of just there to be the loopy eccentric mom.
Well, there is also the fact that Pema pretty much cheated with Tenzin. At least as far as we can tell. She also encouraged Korra to do the same with her situation and Mako. It's messed up and no one really calls any of it out.
I don't have the episodes with me atm so I can't check, but I'm fairly sure it was more "Go after your heart, let your feelings be known." type of shit. And I'm pretty sure she started dating him after he and Lin broke up.
Either way, I think we can agree that Pema is too much of a satellite character. If we're going to be going into the extreme family drama bs of Kya and Bumi giving Tenzin shit for being the favorite, of Bumi not living up to Aang's standards, of Tenzin's kids being shit, etc, it's kind of wierd that Pema is left by the wayside. Because that leaves just a big blank of a character we can paint anything on. Is Pema a normal housewife loved by her family? An babyfactory Tenzin needed? A home wrecker? A psychotic killer in hiding? Bryke only knows.
To be fair Pema exist to be the girl that Lin got Salty over. Also, I still think the advice itself is really bad, even though I had a hunch that Pema knew exactly what situation Korra was in.
Honestly, I do think the Tenzin and Lin Relationship was probably bad way before Pema got involved. But we really don't know enough of what went down to say one way or another.
Exactly.
Honestly, if there is anything I'd want to know, it's how Pema feels about all this shit. Like, how does she view Lin? Sympathetic for how she lost her love, or in disdain for not getting her shit together in 20 years? Is she comfortable with being together with Tenzin, or does she worry that she might have just been a rebound girl that got lucky?
It's weird how this love triangle comes up time and again, but Pema's angle is basically neglected.
BKatastrophe
Member
Yet she spends all of her time crying for him. What a terrible character. Sure, she does some cool shit, but she spends so much time pining over Eren that I just don't care about anything else she has to offer. Mostly because it's just Eren.
Hellsing Ultimate is awesome. The original Hellsing is garbage by comparison.
Okay look, OnePiece is a terrible example. Those female characters spend more time as damsels for Luffy to rescue or subordinates more than anything else. I like OP, and my favorite character is, in fact, Robin. So sure, they get story arcs, but everything in their life is reliant on males.
If you're an attractive woman, you serve under men and/or are obsessed with men/a man. If you're in power, you're unattractive. Otherwise you're busy being the classic Woman in a Refrigerator or a damsel in distress.
It's a step above a lot of others, and there's a couple solid examples (the Amazons), but it's not all that great of an example.
Nami I think is a great character. That and the Amazons you listed. I mean I never really thought of people in Luffy crew straight subordinates. They were closer to his friends that happen to follow him because they were his captain. Almost everyone on his crew held the distress ball in some form.
JadedWriter
Member
Eren really is a shit tier protag isn't he. The first time he got eaten I was like, "this can not be the main character of this show." Then it just kept happening. It's been about a year since I've watched it, but Eren is the least interesting and he's the one with the world saving gift. I honestly forgot how much Mikasa pines away for Eren, it's not a good look for her at all. Ok, sounds like I should check out Ultimate then when I have the time to.
BKatastrophe
Member
Ah, Nami. Oh Nami. Bellemere is capped in front of her, then taken into an all-male crew and saved by an all-male crew.
"LUUUUUFFFFYYYYYYY!"
Boy, isn't that a familiar sound? Nami isn't all that great of an example. A better example is Robin. Oh, wait, her entire life was shaped by males.
Well, fuck.
I don't think that's fair, espcailly for Robin. Just because a character was raised by X doesn't mean they can't be an example of that gender.
It would be like saying Big Boss doesn't count because he was pretty much shaped by the Boss.
You're getting the wrong idea about it. Strong female character doesn't mean tough badass whose gives no fuck about any man. A generic badass male character wouldn't be a strong male character. It means she has as much characterization given to her as anyone else. With Mikasa, she's devoted to Erin without being subservient to him. He doesn't really give her any orders, and she follows him on her own terms. That doesn't take away from her capabilities and her own motives in life.
And it's also the crowd she surrounds herself with. If every woman was devoted to a guy the same way Mikasa is devoted to Erin, then yeah, that'd be a problem. But you have Annie, Hange, Krista, Ymir, Sasha and others, all awesome in their own ways and not defined by any devotion to men. This makes Mikasa's devotion to Eren more of a characterization of herself as an individual rather than as a woman. It's not a weakness of any kind to devote yourself to someone you love. It would just be a problem if the writer generalized that to all women.
Which is kind of the issue with OP. Nearly EVERY female character is extremely sexualized (despite the majority of the cast being asexual) and they are constantly and consistantly portrayed as physically incapable of handling themselves. The only ones that aren't look like monsters or are children. I feel like OP tries somewhat by giving them their own goals, but the way they're portrayed is...ugh.
JadedWriter
Member
Mikasa is never portrayed as defenseless, which is the great thing about her. She got the hang of the 3D gear faster than most of the men and left Eren in the dust. Her devotion to Eren stems from the fact that they killed for each other it seems like. She also seems to be thankful to Eren for giving her a reason to live...I think, been too long since I watched it with that relationship. She's not even bad character, she just seems bad because she's connected to Eren half the time (I really just didn't like Eren, I like the show, but not Eren) Hange is my favorite though. Super eccentric scientist that actually cared about the titans that she was experimenting on.
I think people just don't like Eren because his superpower is...surprisingly useless. Most of the time is spent trying to figure out the titan ability and opportunities to just use it as a weapon are surprisingly little. The times that other titans attack his group, they're usually outnumbered or they're up against stronger titans than he can handle. And because of his power, he keeps getting kidnapped, so he's pretty often the damsel that has to be rescued.
AoT has a Brains, Brawn, Will sort of thing going on. Mikasa is the toughest one and the one who will continue the fight no matter what. Armin is the brains and is the one who most often acknowledges the moral uncertainty of their situations. But Eren is the Will. He hates the titans more than anyone else and is the one who wants to kill them. Mikasa will continue the fight so as to 'live', but she doesn't really have strong feelings on the titans and Armin is driven by his love of his friends more than anything. But Eren is driven by hatred. He will fight the titans not because he wants to live or because he's devoted to his friends, but just because they are his personal enemy.
Jesuotaku did a pretty good analysis of the show relating to that sometime ago, you should watch it if you're interested.
Edit: http://blip.tv/jesuotaku/attack-on-titan-an-in-depth-analysis-6774120 here it is
JadedWriter
Member
Thanks for the heads up on that one. I should check it out. This sounds like when they eventually do a second season Eren will be getting kidnapped again and getting his ass kicked by the newer titans. Minus Armin's crying I actually didn't mind the character. Eren talks the talk, but gets his leg bitten off on his first sortie. Seriously son?!
BKatastrophe
Member
But the thing is, what I said earlier doesn't just apply to Luffy's crew. It applies to pretty much ever single female character in that series. Veelk's post below pretty much sums it up as well. OP is a terrible example. What it does for a character's story and development is set back by their portrayal as a woman.
I probably should have established this earlier, but my only only experience with AoT is the anime. That being said, my point isn't that a strong female character needs to cast aside all males or be a stone cold badass or anything like that. My issue is that Mikasa's character begins and ends at "EREEEEEEEN!" Seriously, it's terrible. She's a badass and she cares about someone. Good. Awesome. Spectacular. But the fact that it's pretty much her only character trait? Dumb. Even if it is her own unique trait. You know what else is something unique to her? The fact that she's the last member of her entire race. I understand Eren's importance to her, but give her something else for goodness sake.
In fact, AoT's characters are so flat and shallow, that I could honestly not care any less about any of them. Except Armin. He's literally the only character that I felt got some real progression and development.
Eren is the Ichigo Kurosaki, the Emma Swan, of AoT. He's so unremarkable in his own right, but he has to be front and center because he's the main character. We need him to drive the plot, because without him, who would do it? Right? Right?
I understand the purpose of having a straight man in a fantasy story. It's a necessary thing to have, but just...do it better. I dunno.
I watched G.I. Joe Retaliation and now I'm upset. I made a bad decision today.
He also is the one that facilitated the first push back against titans that have broken through the wall.
AoT is a series that is intent on portrayed realistic trauma of fighting against homocidal giant monsters. The first scene you get is experienced soldiers breaking down infront of a woman who just lost her child. Death is frequent and random and the only ones who are realistically safe from it are Levi and Mikasa who are just too good to let an ordinary titan get the upper hand on them. Everyone else has to be extra cautious to survive and often even that isn't enough. Eren got his leg bitten off because he got blindsided. That doesn't make him weak or stupid, it's just the kind of world they live in. It happens to most people, especially rookies like him. He's just lucky he had that whole titan thing going on.
That's not true, but I don't have time for a veelk today. Go watch Jesuotaku's thing, she covers it pretty well.
JadedWriter
Member
Yeah this is true. It just kind of reminds me of the midseason point with Blue Gender, though it got handled a lot differently in that show. Is it safe to assume Hange is a non combatant?
No, she fights often. She has 6 years of experience of expeditions outside the walls, you pretty much have to know how to fight to survive that. She's just oriented toward science.
JadedWriter
Member
Ok, good to know, I actually like her crazy ass character.
FeenixRising
Banned
I'm just going to pop in, say a quick "Fuck Pema" and bump this thread back to the 1st page.
And Toa still hasn't refuted our claims of being a kaiju
And Toa still hasn't refuted our claims of being a kaiju
JadedWriter
Member
Pema didn't even wait to see if Tenzin and Lin could find a way to fix their relationship. She just came in and wrecked it.
Toa probably still busy.
On a separate note, I really hope the next Godzilla movie is better than the first one
On another separate note, does anyone know of an interesting event going on in the chicago area? I'm looking to do something I haven't done before, and so far I found an intro to tai chi, a cooking class, and "Boobs on Endor", a Return of the Jedi buresque play or something.
On another separate note, does anyone know of an interesting event going on in the chicago area? I'm looking to do something I haven't done before, and so far I found an intro to tai chi, a cooking class, and "Boobs on Endor", a Return of the Jedi buresque play or something.
To be fair to Pema, I agree with 360 about Tenzin and Lin were most likely having problems when Pema entered the picture.
Tenzin wanted to have kids but Lin didn't (she dedicated to her job), something as big/important as having a kid where one person wants it and another doesn't is pretty much a deal breaker. Its rare that a couple would still stand, coming from what I heard.
Also how is everyone today?
JadedWriter
Member
It was ok, but it did take itself too seriously. Needed more Godzilla fights, also didn't help that the main actor had zero screen presence.
I'm pretty sure Lin didn't want to have kids because she grew up in a messed up family. She grew up dealing with Suyin's nonsense and Toph's unloving demeanor. I think Lin actually could've been a good mother, but at that moment in time she was caught up in her past.
Why would he refute something that's true?
Pema was alright, I feel sorry for her more than anything. She was just a brood mare.
FeenixRising
Banned
How big was the damn camera he used for his avi selfie? Toa how tall are you anyway? What are your powers besides wielding a 105 story tall Kuvira body pillow?
I just call her a glorified side chick
JadedWriter
Member
You and me both know she made damn sure Tenzin knew she was willing to have his kids. As I said once Tenzin grew up with Lin, he knew exactly what he was getting into with that one so it's hard for me to come to to the conclusion they broke up over something small. He probably knew she didn't want kids too, or at the very least the amount of kids that him and Pema had. Maybe Lin just wanted one or two kids and that wasn't enough for Tenzin.
JadedWriter
Member
Probably being raised by Toph she didn't think she'd even be a good parent.
Lin probably thought she would make a piss poor mom. Like her mom was.
As for Female Leads, I was always under the impression that a female lead and the love interest for the main character should be separate.
Make a character specifically to be the love interest while keeping the female lead in tact with her own wants without being connected to the main character .
As for Female Leads, I was always under the impression that a female lead and the love interest for the main character should be separate.
Make a character specifically to be the love interest while keeping the female lead in tact with her own wants without being connected to the main character .
Well, 1, you're assuming that rather than it being explicit in the show. There could be other reasons, like maybe just not liking kids or whatever. And 2. that notion can be easily explored all the same. It's just comes off as an overly simplistic to just say "Oh well, I'd have sucked, it's for the best", especially if it is the root cause of her number 1 loss in life. It can be challenged or reinforced or subverted or just flat out change wherein she would have made a terrible mom at one point but wouldn't anymore. Like, jesus, what kind of sad, pathetic person does she have to be to think her manner of motherhood is a genetic trait that she can't possibly get rid of or alter.
JadedWriter
Member
Yeah I will agree that it's a bit of an assumption, but Lin comes off as rather unloved when it comes to how she was raised. She did everything to try to live up to being Toph's daughter, but Toph never really seemed to congratulate her for it, kind of just seemed to piss her off. I think it's a point she made in one of the episodes as well, probably her flashback ep when she was speaking to Opal.
I think knows that she and Su...are kind of messed up. Especially compared to say, Tenzin and his Siblings and Zuko's kids. Sure they also had problems, but they were capable of talking about it and to each other.
Lin probably didn't want to go through that. Even with one kid,
Lin probably didn't want to go through that. Even with one kid,
What I don't want to accept is that she just...gave up. Over an insecurity that she never talked to anyone about, one that I feel she should have gotten over. I can understand if she didn't want a kid because she didn't want to deal with the problems of being a mother or something like that. But if she just gave it up because of fear, lost tenzin, and just became this bitter old lonely woman over this...it's just sad and....pathetic. Really really pathetic. I don't want to think of Lin with that little respect.
JadedWriter
Member
Toph's kids lack a sense of balance. They both just have extreme versions of Toph's personality, with Lin leaning to Toph's sense of order and Su being an extreme version of Toph's "let's break some rules!" side. We don't know enough about Zuko's kids, but none of them seem to be as messed up as Toph's. Aang's kids have their own issues, but they're normal enough to be able to talk that shit out and continue being a family. Lin wanted nothing to do with Su and left the room by knocking over a chair. I think there's a good parent in Lin, but Lin does not believe it though.
Considering how she reacts to things I don't think she makes friends easily. I always kind of just thought that Lin would date some one that she knew and trusted for a really long time and that's Tenzin. Once the break up happened she just stopped trusting people and probably thought she couldn't really be a positive thing in someone's life. Not to mention having to see Tenzin get married, have kids and then watch said kids grow up. Probably didn't take it too well.
I wouldn't call her pathetic. It was more Toph doing. Lin really had no one to talk to, unlike Tenzin who still had his mom. Lin doesn't know her dad, her Mom barely contacted her maybe once or twice. And knowing Toph she did it about it in the most roundabout way.
Su pretty much laughs at her because of her failed relationship.
Su pretty much laughs at her because of her failed relationship.
Out of all the animes I've seen, The Legend of Korra handles representation of women far better than any of them. Only a few characters in the show are defined by their relationship to a man, much of the agency in the show is carried out by women, there is a large variety of women archetypes throughout the show's run, et cetera. Off the top of my head only KLK comes close, and we all know how that show goes.
Not to say Korra is perfect in its characterizations or diversity. But I think it does rather well - certainly a step above anime in general.
Not to say Korra is perfect in its characterizations or diversity. But I think it does rather well - certainly a step above anime in general.
No, it's pathetic. It's a sucky position, but if she wanted to find someone who could talk to, then she at the very least has Tenzin himself. If she literally had no one, there's always therapy. If they don't have therapy, she could work the problem out herself, possibly taking Babysitting jobs to see how she'd do. Doing these things is hard and painful and they don't even always work, but they're ways to work at them.
Letting something like this sit and destroy your life from the inside while doing nothing about it? That's pathetic. I don't mean that in I dislike Lin for it, because honestly I've been in a similar position. Still am to an extent. But letting insecurities sit like this is just a reprehensible action to me. A self-inflicted crime where the perpatrator is the victim. It's something I just have a very strong aversion to and have difficulty respecting on any level. People cannot give up their agency and have to own their lives regardless of how much others try to fuck it up. I can understand why it's scary, but I can't accept surrender to it.
Hmm, I can see that. But it might get complicated. It also might be a combination of her attitude and she realized she might just be too overbearing as a parent. Or it could be she legit didn't want to deal with kids (Though I really do think that it probably ha something to do with Toph)
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