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[360pages]

It's a different kind of fighting than the shonen "my technique specifically does this, which I can use to do this" vs just naturalistic martial arts movement. The latter is very different from the former, but certainly not thoughtless.

I like both, but I hate OP's because it goes "It works like this" and I go "No, that wouldn't fucking work that at all!" If you're going to make it tactical, then make be intelligent about it. So I can't get into any OP fights. They're too bullshit to admire for tactics, but not visually fantastic enough to like just for the aesthetic.

One Piece is simply too long to give a lot of budget to a lot of scenes. 700 EP and all, which is a shame. Considering it's never going to have Fate budgets and what not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1PmzgnZROo

Though One Piece is the type of series where you might have to accept certain types of physics, but it would help if some abilities didn't contradict others. Which might be hard since Luffy's entire ability is based on how we expect rubber to react

 

[Icyflamez96]

Again, I feel you don't actually read what I write..

By the time I replied, all you had in your post was "That's dumb. You should never do that" so that's all I had to go off of... lol

 

[Veelk]

One Piece is simply too long to give a lot of budget to a lot of scenes. 700 EP and all, which is a shame. Considering it's never going to have Fate budgets and what not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1PmzgnZROo

Though One Piece is the type of series where you might have to accept certain types of physics, but it would help if some abilities didn't contradict others. Which might be hard since Luffy's entire ability is based on how we expect rubber to react

I read the manga anyway, but there is a way to make such fights dynamic, but Oda doesn't write them like that. Regardless of the budget, the way Zoro often cuts things for example would make no sense if we saw the whole thing. It's not just a matter of budget, because there are cases where OP gets budget to make something fantastic, but the problem is that certain choreography is only comprehensible if we see it as "Zoro lunges -> attack is finished, opponent falls in background."

 

[360pages]

Well it really depends on the type of series. And what the type of story or world it presents. Which is why I can put up with a lot of weirdness in something like say DBZ and One Piece. Because while it has its bullshit moments, it never really tries to preach to you or be deeper than it is.

It never really betrays the type of story you are looking for. (This is if you count DBZ separate from DB)

While something like Naruto you argue that the lessons try to be deep and the story itself looses itself trying to tell you something that the story can't get across.

AT said he sucks at romance, so he doesn't write it. Some might fault him for not trying, I commend him for knowing that if he isn't good at something putting it in the story would bog it down.

I think that is what Icy meant. Some stories main point is the drive the narrative while others use it as an excuse for a character to do X thing.

 

[Icyflamez96]

here is a difference between giving up standards and just accepting they aren't reached. You're doing the latter, I just argue against the former, which is what I take 'not take it seriously' to mean. Take things VERY seriously, while also doing what you enjoy. They aren't mutually exclusive.

But I do lower my standards for Naruto. I don't expect it to have high quality writing. (now high quality entertainment is a different thing) That would be 'not taking it seriously' in your standards, no?

I don't have to accept that my standards aren't being reached when my standards for the series aren't high in the first place.

 

[Veelk]

Well it really depends on the type of series. And what the type of story or world it presents. Which is why I can put up with a lot of weirdness in something like say DBZ and One Piece. Because while it has its bullshit moments, it never really tries to preach to you or be deeper than it is.

It never really betrays the type of story you are looking for. (This is if you count DBZ separate from DB)

While something like Naruto you argue that the lessons try to be deep and the story itself looses itself trying to tell you something that the story can't get across.

AT said he sucks at romance, so he doesn't write it. Some might fault him for not trying, I commend him for knowing that if he isn't good at something putting it in the story would bog it down.

I think that is what Icy meant. Some stories main point is the drive the narrative while others use it as an excuse for a character to do X thing.

I wouldn't agree that OP is thematically meaningless. I don't find it compelling because it preaches it's themes through highly uncompelling and simplistic characters, but it is 'about' something. The theme of Justice is central to the marine narrative, for example, and has been from characters like that pink haired shithead from early on to Akainu's insane mantra, for example. In fact, many argue that it's impossible to write a thematically empty story.

But we were just talking about fight choreography, so I don't know how we got into deep narrative themes.

But I do lower my standards for Naruto. I don't expect it to have high quality writing. (now high quality entertainment is a different thing) That would be 'not taking it seriously' in your standards, no?

I don't have to accept that my standards aren't being reached when my standards for the series aren't high in the first place.

The standards are there, otherwise, you'd be arguing that Naruto is great rather than not of high quality but still enjoyable. And you can't just change your standards like that. That's what standardizing is, applying all things to certain criteria. If you change the standards, you're changing standards not just for that, but for everything of that catergory, in which case everything gets an altered opinion based on those changed standards. Otherwise, you have to create a fundamentally different catergory for Naruto and ilk like it by some other criteria.

No, it's just that for some reason, people don't like saying "This is shit, and I love it". I like plenty of shitty stuff, it's just a matter of personal tastes, but it is shit. My standards haven't changed, but those standards only go so far in determining whether I enjoy it or not.

 

[360pages]

I wouldn't agree that OP is thematically meaningless. I don't find it compelling because it preaches it's themes through highly uncompelling and simplistic characters, but it is 'about' something. The theme of Justice is central to the marine narrative, for example, and has been from characters like that pink haired shithead from early on to Akainu's insane mantra, for example. In fact, many argue that it's impossible to write a thematically empty story.

But we were just talking about fight choreography, so I don't know how we got into deep narrative themes.

That is true, I was talking about how Icy said that a story can be just dumb fun. I mean, even DBZ has themes. Forgiveness, and just generally being a decent living creature and kindness. Also the idea that their is always someone better.

But I think in both series, such as OP and DBZ is that rarely are the themes a focus point. While they may be brought up quite often in arcs. It is very much about individual growth and character. Both series themes are very simple to normal people and aren't complex at all. This isn't a super bad thing, our good guys are right the bad guys are wrong. Even if at times it shows a straw man of the opposing idea. (OP does this quite often)

As for the fights. Zoro is an odd character, that sometimes you get really good fights or scenes with him. (Like against Pica, or some others) and others you get. "Cut/Slash, such powah! like is fight with Monet.

 

[Icyflamez96]

Oh yeah, part 2 fights got extremely lame.. I liked it up to a point, mostly Sasuke's fights in the earlier half of part two are tight, (Sasuke vs Deidara is my favorite in the series, aside from the ending) and I liked the Hidan and Kakuzu vs Kakashi/TeamShikimaru fight, but yeah they got really bland by the end. I like the last Sasuke vs Naruto fight though just because of how brutal it got.


Oh, almost forgot about Jiraya vs Pain.

and Naruto vs Pain was fun.

 

[Veelk]

That is true, I was talking about how Icy said that a story can be just dumb fun. I mean, even DBZ has themes. Forgiveness, and just generally being a decent living creature and kindness. Also the idea that their is always someone better.

But I think in both series, such as OP and DBZ is that rarely are the themes a focus point. While they may be brought up quite often in arcs. It is very much about individual growth and character. Both series themes are very simple to normal people and aren't complex at all. This isn't a super bad thing, our good guys are right the bad guys are wrong. Even if at times it shows a straw man of the opposing idea. (OP does this quite often)

As for the fights. Zoro is an odd character, that sometimes you get really good fights or scenes with him. (Like against Pica, or some others) and others you get. "Cut/Slash, such powah! like is fight with Monet.

I don't really get the difference, in terms of choreography, that you draw between the fight with Monet and basically every other fight. I'm fairly sure that that's how every fight goes with him. Tactics, yeah, he just powered through Monet, but in terms of how he actually moves and delivers his attacks, he's fairly monotonous.

 

[360pages]

I don't really get the difference, in terms of choreography, that you draw between the fight with Monet and basically every other fight. I'm fairly sure that that's how every fight goes with him. Tactics, yeah, he just powered through Monet, but in terms of how he actually moves and delivers his attacks, he's fairly monotonous.

His fight against the Giant Pica was mostly interesting, though that was mostly because he needed help from everyone to pull it off since Pica was simply too big to just cut in half. Though oddly enough the Anime does a bit more with him in terms of fights. Like his fight against Hody.

Ussop usually gets more thought provoking fights.

 

[m_shortpants]

Got damn!!

Still would be the best day of his life though.

"She's not my waifu."

- Toa Tak, 2014, 2015.

We need to request a tag for toa.

 

[Icyflamez96]

The standards are there, otherwise, you'd be arguing that Naruto is great rather than not of high quality but still enjoyable. And you can't just change your standards like that. That's what standardizing is, applying all things to certain criteria. If you change the standards, you're changing standards not just for that, but for everything of that catergory, in which case everything gets an altered opinion based on those changed standards. Otherwise, you have to create a fundamentally different catergory for Naruto and ilk like it by some other criteria.

No, it's just that for some reason, people don't like saying "This is shit, and I love it". I like plenty of shitty stuff, it's just a matter of personal tastes, but it is shit. My standards haven't changed, but those standards only go so far in determining whether I enjoy it or not.

Well that's you. I don't feel like that applies to me. Not in this scenario at least.

I have lowered my expectations for the writing quality in Naruto, that doesn't mean I have to lower it for everything else. That doesn't even make any sense to me.

I just see it as being in it for the ride. I just have fun following it, just because, well I dunno really. There's just a certain connection I have with the world and characters. Even though I know a bunch of BS is happening, I expect BS because my expectations are well adjusted to accommodate for that. BS in the vast majority of other shows I watch will get me much more salty than a similar level of BS happening in Naruto. It's a special case.

 

[Veelk]

Well that's you. I don't feel like that applies to me. Not in this scenario at least.

I have lowered my expectations for the writing quality in Naruto, that doesn't mean I have to lower it for everything else. That doesn't even make any sense to me.

I just see it as being in it for the ride. I just have fun following it, just because, well I dunno really. There's just a certain connection I have with the world and characters. Even though I know a bunch of BS is happening, I expect BS because my expectations are well adjusted to accommodate for that. BS in the vast majority of other shows I watch will get me much more salty than a similar level of BS happening in Naruto. It's a special case.

Whatever. You do you, Icy. You do you even if you don't understand what doing you means. Which you don't. By your own admission, in fact.

 

[360pages]

It's kind of about expectations and what not. I think it would be impossible to enjoy anything if we go into everything using the same exact expectations. Going into the Avengers expecting something like Citizen Cane would be a poor choice.

Same thing with any media and what not. Comparing something in the same genre is usually okay. I can't go into Kill La Kill with the same expectations and standards as say something like Ghost in the Shell.

I can't go into the Naruto Storm games expecting Street Fighter.

 

[JadedWriter]

Whatever. You do you, Icy. You do you even if you don't understand what doing you means. Which you don't. By your own admission, in fact.

I'm sitting on a train laughing my ass off at this.

 

[Infinite Justice]

Honestly i think OP is the one instance where your usual deep looks and logic fails you pretty hard and that's unfortunate.


As for me i just enjoy the spectacle and not let the nitty gritty stuff get me down because then it will be questioning every damn thing and lowering my enjoyment.


Just like a recent famous movie said just "Let it go"

 

[Icyflamez96]

Elaborate? I lowered my standards of quality for Naruto, which means I don't have to accept that my standards for Naruto aren't being reached when my standards for Naruto are already low. It's a fairly unique case as I normally have a general degree of standards for writing quality when it comes to other shows that I start watching. I haven't lowered my general standards for everything just because I lowered my standards for Naruto.

 

[JadedWriter]

Honestly i think OP is the one instance where your usual deep looks and logic fails you pretty hard and that's unfortunate.


As for me i just enjoy the spectacle and not let the nitty gritty stuff get me down because then it will be questioning every damn thing and lowering my enjoyment.


Just like a recent famous movie said just "Let it go"

This is how I enjoyed KLK even though I legit like some of the characters though.

 

[Veelk]

Honestly i think OP is the one instance where your usual deep looks and logic fails you pretty hard and that's unfortunate.


As for me i just enjoy the spectacle and not let the nitty gritty stuff get me down because then it will be questioning every damn thing and lowering my enjoyment.


Just like a recent famous movie said just "Let it go"

I like to think that OP fails rather than my analysis. The same way Icy can gauge the quality of a show, find it lacking, but enjoy it (and then go on to deny he ever gauged it to lacking quality in the first place, badger me over semantics, and be confused about my retorts he can't seem to understand, but we'll ignore this part), OP is an example where it succeeds in a lot of ways, but fails me in others so much that it pretty much doesn't matter and I end up hating whats going on.

I mean, OP clearly isn't a story that is seeking to be coherent in the same ways that I want it to be. It wants to be compelling in terms of creative aesthetics and having grander than life spectacles of badassery. The latter I like in concept, but everything about the way it executes it, and writes it's characters, and chooses it's aesthetics just fails to appeal to me or even goes as far as offending me at times. It's a series that knows what it's doing and is doing it skillfully, but none of what it's doing is what I look for.

I don't begrudge anyone liking OP, but I just wish it had some form of competition. Bleach and Naruto and Fairy Tale are laughably bad, and HxH rarely bothers to show it's face, and FMA is completed. Well, I'm really enjoying Shokugeki no Soma, but that's not a battle manga. I guess I haven't been keeping up with what else has been going on, but OP is the only competent battle shonen on the market I know of going on at the time and it just fails to appeal to me on nearly every level, but I watch it for the education value of observing Oda's storytelling technique. I would much rather have someone with Togashi's skill, Hiro's dedication, and Kishimoto's grounded premises pull off something great. Or atleast get Arakawa back on the Battle shonen track.

 

[360pages]

I like to think that OP fails rather than my analysis. The same way Icy can gauge the quality of a show, find it lacking, but enjoy it (and then go on to deny he ever gauged it to lacking quality in the first place, badger me over semantics, and be confused about my retorts he can't seem to understand, but we'll ignore this part), OP is an example where it succeeds in a lot of ways, but fails me in others so much that it pretty much doesn't matter and I end up hating whats going on.

I mean, OP clearly isn't a story that is seeking to be coherent in the same ways that I want it to be. It wants to be compelling in terms of creative aesthetics and having grander than life spectacles of badassery. The latter I like in concept, but everything about the way it executes it, and writes it's characters, and chooses it's aesthetics just fails to appeal to me or even goes as far as offending me at times. It's a series that knows what it's doing and is doing it skillfully, but none of what it's doing is what I look for.

I don't begrudge anyone liking OP, but I just wish it had some form of competition. Bleach and Naruto and Fairy Tale are laughably bad, and HxH rarely bothers to show it's face, and FMA is completed. I guess I haven't been keeping up with what else has been going on, but it's the only competent shonen on the market and it just fails to appeal to me on nearly every level, but I watch it for the education value of observing Oda's storytelling technique.

I think that's fair. I think someone described it best. It's pretty much a giant adlib. With a few recycled plots. (Lets face it, outside of Marineford and Impeldown. Most of One Piece is the Straw hats going to place ruled/ being terrorized by X and though their action they save the day) It's not a bad thing, since we get to see a lot of different places. But it feels like the type of story that would be a weird book series, than one giant on going story.

 

[Veelk]

I think that's fair. I think someone described it best. It's pretty much a giant adlib. With a few recycled plots. (Lets face it, outside of Marineford and Impeldown. Most of One Piece is the Straw hats going to place ruled/ being terrorized by X and though their action they save the day) It's not a bad thing, since we get to see a lot of different places. But it feels like the type of story that would be a weird book series, than one giant on going story.

Yeah, that's one of my biggest criticisms of it. The fact that the strawhats usually have no stake in whats going on other than generally being offended by whatever the bad guy is makes it very emotionally unengaging. The interesting parts of this arc, for example, was Law's stake against Doflamingo and I just wish he had been our protagonist from the beginning, or the longform storytelling of how Kaido is going to lose his shit at Doflamingo or what Sabo is doing with the Revolutionaries. But usually, I just don't care about anything happening because the only reason the Strawhats are even fighting doflamingo is because 1. Law has a beef with him and they joined him, 2. they think Doflamingo is a jerk. The strawhats are just one of the most uninteresting groups of protagonist most of the time. The only time it did get personal (Impel Down and Marineford) is when I started caring, but that rarely happens.

 

[360pages]

Yeah, that's one of my biggest criticisms of it. The fact that the strawhats usually have no stake in whats going on other than generally being offended by whatever the bad guy is makes it very emotionally unengaging. The interesting parts of this arc, for example, was Law's stake against Doflamingo and I just wish he had been our protagonist from the beginning, or the longform storytelling of how Kaido is going to lose his shit at Doflamingo or what Sabo is doing with the Revolutionaries. But usually, I just don't care about anything happening because the only reason the Strawhats are even fighting doflamingo is because 1. Law has a beef with him and they joined him, 2. they think Doflamingo is a jerk. The strawhats are just one of the most uninteresting groups of protagonist most of the time. The only time it did get personal (Impel Down and Marineford) is when I started caring, but that rarely happens.

That's due to the sheer length of the story most likely.

Remember, outside of Nami, Usopp and Maybe Zoro most of the Straw Hats problems were in their introduction arc. Robin's arc was so close after her introduction arc it might as well have been her introduction arc.

So when we have the fact that most of their problems have been solved by the time skip. They are very impersonal with what's going on. They beat people up because their jerks, not a bad thing persay. But things should be mixed up once in awhile.

 

[Icyflamez96]

Elaborate? I lowered my standards of quality for Naruto, which means I don't have to accept that my standards for Naruto aren't being reached when my standards for Naruto are already low. It's a fairly unique case as I normally have a general degree of standards for writing quality when it comes to other shows that I start watching. I haven't lowered my general standards for everything just because I lowered my standards for Naruto.

Did you give up on me lol

Does this not make sense or what?

 

[Veelk]

No, I felt disconnected even when they were doing "personal arcs" like Robin. This is because I don't feel the strawhats are true friends as I understand true friendship to be. They're more like playmates that have extreme loyalty to one another, but I don't feel they actually get to know one another as people. I feel like OP overcompensates for this by having the series characters have huge emotional outbreaks (lots of crying, shouting, etc), but it feels very hollow because however deep a history all these characters have, none of the other characters know it. They saved Robin because she was "part of the crew", without really knowing what that meant to Robin due to her past, before or after. Again, this is why Ace was an exception, I could atleast assume that he and Luffy knew each other on a deep level, even if we didn't actually get that until way later.

Did you give up on me lol

Yup. Fly, Icy. You're free now.

 

[360pages]

No, I felt disconnected even when they were doing "personal arcs" like Robin. This is because I don't feel the strawhats are true friends as I understand true friendship to be. They're more like playmates that have extreme loyalty to one another, but I don't feel they actually get to know one another as people. I feel like OP overcompensates for this by having the series characters have huge emotional outbreaks (lots of crying, shouting, etc), but it feels very hollow because however deep a history all these characters have, none of the other characters know it. They saved Robin because she was "part of the crew", without really knowing what that meant to Robin due to her past, before or after. Again, this is why Ace was an exception, I could atleast assume that he and Luffy knew each other on a deep level, even if we didn't actually get that until way later.



Yup. Fly, Icy. You're free now.

That's not completely True. They spend enough time with Nami so when her personal arc came up you understood why they did what they did. They were with her for three arcs after all. Same thing when Luffy freaked out when Zoro almost died fighting Mihawk. Or they got super pissed off when Usopp got his beat by the Franky gang.

Robin was a bit weird, since she was only with the crew the shortest before a pretty big event happened.

 

[Infinite Justice]

I like to think that OP fails rather than my analysis. The same way Icy can gauge the quality of a show, find it lacking, but enjoy it (and then go on to deny he ever gauged it to lacking quality in the first place, badger me over semantics, and be confused about my retorts he can't seem to understand, but we'll ignore this part), OP is an example where it succeeds in a lot of ways, but fails me in others so much that it pretty much doesn't matter and I end up hating whats going on.

I mean, OP clearly isn't a story that is seeking to be coherent in the same ways that I want it to be. It wants to be compelling in terms of creative aesthetics and having grander than life spectacles of badassery. The latter I like in concept, but everything about the way it executes it, and writes it's characters, and chooses it's aesthetics just fails to appeal to me or even goes as far as offending me at times. It's a series that knows what it's doing and is doing it skillfully, but none of what it's doing is what I look for.

I don't begrudge anyone liking OP, but I just wish it had some form of competition. Bleach and Naruto and Fairy Tale are laughably bad, and HxH rarely bothers to show it's face, and FMA is completed. Well, I'm really enjoying Shokugeki no Soma, but that's not a battle manga. I guess I haven't been keeping up with what else has been going on, but OP is the only competent battle shonen on the market I know of going on at the time and it just fails to appeal to me on nearly every level, but I watch it for the education value of observing Oda's storytelling technique. I would much rather have someone with Togashi's skill, Hiro's dedication, and Kishimoto's grounded premises pull off something great. Or atleast get Arakawa back on the Battle shonen track.

When i meant fail in that context it was in regards to it not meeting your standards and you are broken as a result when instead you could just not go so far and get some enjoyment .


While new (its like 38 chapters so far) i keep hearing that Boku hero no Academia seems to be a legit contender and has a protagonist that seems to use his head since he's kinda at a disadvantage vs the others. So it might have that grounded combat you are looking for.


I haven't read it yet because

1) its like ~40 chapters
2) i'm weary of anything so early being that hyped, especially a fucking shonen in Jump.


But its been getting good rankings in the magazine way after the usual 8 weeks grace period and hasn't been fucking canned yet so at least readers seem interested in it.

 

[Icyflamez96]

Welp. Until next time

 

[Veelk]

That's not completely True. They spend enough time with Nami so when her personal arc came up you understood why they did what they did. They were with her for three arcs after all. Same thing when Luffy freaked out when Zoro almost died fighting Mihawk. Or they got super pissed off when Usopp got his beat by the Franky gang.

Robin was a bit weird, since she was only with the crew the shortest before a pretty big event happened.

It's not really a matter of anything. It's not like they learned anything about Nami other than her surface personality traits, or that she learned much about them except their surface level personality. That's basically the story of them all. They are around each other, do stuff that means a lot to each other, but never know how or why it means a lot. Luffy didn't learn of what Arlong had her put through, or why, or why she went along with it, until he was already fighting him. That's the thing with Luffy, he'll fight for you for very superficial reasons, which people take as meaningful because of personal pasts that Luffy has no idea about. Deeper questions about pasts or whatever are never brought up along the crew. If you took any one of the crew, Nami for example, they'd be able to describe their history and basic personality traits, but not their pasts or their philosophies or how they came about them or why they value what they value. They won't know that the bracelet she carries is from her sister (or mother, one of those) or why she changed her tattoo to a tangerine, or why she steals things, or why she chooses to dress so provocatively, etc. These are deeper questions that she basically shares with no one in the crew. I mean ,you said it yourself. Nami spent 3 arcs with the crew, and what was she to them? Someone who stole stuff, navigated their ship, and knew some medical knowledge that saved some rando friends of Zoro he hasn't mentioned before or since meeting them. This makes her someone who they are willing to trek through hell for? Well, yes, but only because they have very low standards for that. They'd trek through hell for anyone who asks them nicely.

So, despite their enthusiasm for each other, I don't get the sense that these people are real friends, despite everything. I barely believe in them as real characters, because they often don't act like actual human beings to my eyes. So it's hard for me to achieve empathy for them.

When i meant fail in that context it was in regards to it not meeting your standards and you are broken as a result when instead you could just not go so far and get some enjoyment .

Stories are far more precious to me than being mere entertainment. And I'm not broken by OP in any way, I just don't like it.

 

[360pages]

It's not really a matter of anything. It's not like they learned anything about Nami other than her surface personality traits, or that she learned much about them except their surface level personality. That's basically the story of them all. They are around each other, do stuff that means a lot to each other, but never know how or why it means a lot. Luffy didn't learn of what Arlong had her put through, or why, or why she went along with it, until he was already fighting him. That's the thing with Luffy, he'll fight for you for very superficial reasons, which people take as meaningful because of personal pasts that Luffy has no idea about. Deeper questions about pasts or whatever are never brought up along the crew. If you took any one of the crew, Nami for example, they'd be able to describe their history and basic personality traits, but not their pasts or their philosophies or how they came about them or why they value what they value. They won't know that the bracelet she carries is from her sister (or mother, one of those) or why she changed her tattoo to a tangerine, or why she steals things, or why she chooses to dress so provocatively, etc. These are deeper questions that she basically shares with no one in the crew.

So, despite their enthusiasm for each other, I don't get the sense that these people are real friends, despite everything. I barely believe in them as real characters, because they often don't act like actual human beings to my eyes. So it's hard for me to achieve empathy for them.



Stories are far more precious to me than being mere entertainment. And I'm not broken by OP in any way, I just don't like it.

Hmm, it kind of comes down to a weird connect. I don't even think anyone really know the full history about Luff'ys straw hat either. Though if they asked I'm sure they would tell them, but it might also come down to panel time. If a character asks, then said character would have to reply. So it would be repeating information to a reader that might already know.

This is both a good and bad thing. Bad because Water 7 and Usopp leaving could have been completely avoided if either one of them spoke up.

(Like Luffy saying that he did everything he could instead of just saying it was a boat. Despite knowing full well what the boat meant to Usopp) I can see the Straw Hats as friends, because despite not knowing the most personal details about one another. They do enjoy spending time with one another and obviously trust one another with their life.

I usually judge friendship in fiction, not by major events, but the smaller scene by scene events that happen. Sure they might not know everything about Nami, but they spent enough time with her doing stuff like eating and talking to one another to form that bond.

 

[Kinvara]

lol I'm so glad I dropped Naruto after the Pain arc.

Anyway, I'm co-running a A:TLA/TLOK panel on Saturday at a local convention so that will be fun.

 

[Veelk]

Well, that's one of the biggest reasons I hate the OP structure. When something emotionally significant happens to a character, they go into a flashback of it, but that information isn't actually shared with the crew, when it could be one character telling another of their past or whatever.

it's something I see in a lot of other anime and I just wonder if it's a japanese culture thing, that you keep their problems on the inside, which I don't think is healthy. I mean, I don't think even the Naruto characters, when they found out about his Kyubi, actually sat down with him and told him they still accept him. They just ignored the information and accepted him without telling, iirc. Even Iruka said it specifically when he thought Naruto wasn't listening. That sets up some severe anxiety when the main character doesn't know that their love for him is unconditional.

You could call them friends, but I've been saying for a long time that we need distinct terms for 'friends' that you just say hi to or hang out with and 'friends' that you would take a bullet for. The strawhats are friends, but them being so ignorant of each other's deeper characters can't make them deep friends. Despite that, they'll obviously die for one another, but that's what I mean about them just not acting like real human beings.

To give a counter example, the friendship between Winry and Edward (before they necessarily start a romance) feels so much realer to me because they actually sit down and talk about their deeper feelings and situations. Moments like when Winry was about to shoot Scar, but Ed sat down with her and comforted by bringing up how she was a healer like her parents shows a kind of intimacy that is never present in OP. Ed shows that he knows her and loves her and that understands her in that scene, and that is just so much more real than "IMMA GONNA DIE FOR YOU CUZ WE'RE NAKAMA, STRANGER!" I can believe that FMA's character are actual human beings. I can't do that for OP.

 

[Infinite Justice]

Stories are far more precious to me than being mere entertainment. And I'm not broken by OP in any way, I just don't like it.

wont continue to rattle the cage so

Check out Boku Hero no Academia and see if it does anything for you.

 

[JadedWriter]

lol I'm so glad I dropped Naruto after the Pain arc.

Anyway, I'm co-running a A:TLA/TLOK panel on Saturday at a local convention so that will be fun.

Have fun. I'm one of the only people on here that never really picked up Naruto and it sounds like a narrative clusterfuck.

 

[360pages]

Well, that's one of the biggest reasons I hate the OP structure. When something emotionally significant happens to a character, they go into a flashback of it, but that information isn't actually shared with the crew, when it could be one character telling another of their past or whatever.

it's something I see in a lot of other anime and I just wonder if it's a japanese culture thing, that you keep their problems on the inside, which I don't think is healthy. I mean, I don't think even the Naruto characters, when they found out about his Kyubi, actually sat down with him and told him they still accept him. They just ignored the information and accepted him without telling, iirc. Even Iruka said it specifically when he thought Naruto wasn't listening. That sets up some severe anxiety when the main character doesn't know that their love for him is unconditional.

You could call them friends, but I've been saying for a long time that we need distinct terms for 'friends' that you just say hi to or hang out with and 'friends' that you would take a bullet for. The strawhats are friends, but them being so ignorant of each other's deeper characters can't make them deep friends. Despite that, they'll obviously die for one another, but that's what I mean about them just not acting like real human beings.

To give a counter example, the friendship between Winry and Edward (before they necessarily start a romance) feels so much realer to me because they actually sit down and talk about their deeper feelings and situations. Moments like when Winry was about to shoot Scar, but Ed sat down with her and comforted by bringing up how she was a healer like her parens shows a kind of intimacy that is just so much more real than "IMMA GONNA DIE FOR YOU CUZ WE'RE NAKAMA, STRANGER!"

Hmm, I think it might be time and what not. Characters like Brook and Chopper don't need that since I think the crew figured it out casually. I think the big thing is, that most of the time their past doesn't affect their judgement of the current situation. So characters rarely need to be talked down or have their demons brought up.

Despite being idiots, most of the time the Straw hats are rational. They usually always try to make good decisions with the given information. So rarely does it ever go into. (Hey...what was that about?)

Of course I always felt that while you can tell your friends some things, other things really should be kept to yourself unless it is really destroying you inside.

 

[Veelk]

Hmm, I think it might be time and what not. Characters like Brook and Chopper don't need that since I think the crew figured it out casually. I think the big thing is, that most of the time their past doesn't affect their judgement of the current situation. So characters rarely need to be talked down or have their demons brought up.

Despite being idiots, most of the time the Straw hats are rational. They usually always try to make good decisions with the given information. So rarely does it ever go into. (Hey...what was that about?)

Of course I always felt that while you can tell your friends some things, other things really should be kept to yourself unless it is really destroying you inside.

And I can understand that, but there ought to be middleground. At nearly 800 chapters, none of the strawhats know each other intimately. If anything like that happened, it's all offscreen where the reader can't see. Intimacy is rare for people outside the crew too, since the 'getting to know you' thing is often done in summary form in the flashbacks. Usually, anyone the character is intimate friends with dies. But since the strawhats are main characters and their friendship is the emotional focal point of the story, it's doubly odd.

I mean, you say they're rational, but I'm not saying they're not. They just aren't open with one another, or even casually try to gain more closeness. For example, 2 years have passed and the last thing they heard from Luffy was that he lost his brother. They were all anxious with the distress he must have been feeling, but once they finally got back together, did they ask him if he's okay? No. Like, if they don't want to pry, okay, but it's not that they don't pry, they just meet up and boom, onto another adventure! They have no idea how Luffy is dealing with the loss of his brother, but they don't bother asking. None of the strawhats ask how they've spent the last two years of their lives, except 'training'. No one asks how Zoro lost his eye, or how Frankie altered his body, or anything.

Again, I keep harping on this point, but this just frames the strawhats as being vehicles for exploring the world of OP, rather than being characters within that world, and it makes it a very cold manga to me, one which I cannot empathize with the characters. It becomes the victim of the eight most deadly words in fiction.

 

[360pages]

And I can understand that, but there ought to be middleground. At nearly 800 chapters, none of the strawhats know each other intimately. If anything like that happened, it's all offscreen where the reader can't see. It rarely happens for people outside the crew too, but since they're main characters, it's doubly odd.

I mean, you say they're rational, but I'm not saying they're not. They just aren't open with one another, or even casually try to gain more closeness. For example, 2 years have passed and the last thing they heard from Luffy was that he lost his brother. They were all anxious with the distress he must have been feeling, but once they finally got back together, did they ask him if he's okay? No. Like, if they don't want to pry, okay, but it's not that they don't pry, they just meet up and boom, onto another adventure!

Again, I keep harping on this point, but this just frames the strawhats as being vehicles for exploring the world of OP, rather than being characters within that world, and it makes it a very cold manga to me, one which I cannot empathize with the characters. It becomes the victim of the eight most deadly words in fiction.

I can see that, on the flip side, me the reader understands what each character has been though. So it's easy for me to understand their decisions a little better. But I can see the lack of empathy being a problem. Though you also remember that this is also the group that was willing to ditch Usopp. (Really, Zoro was kind of being an ass about it) Despite saving their asses and know the whole situation was because they were hopped up on emotion. And the ship meant a lot to them. (I'm pretty sure that Usopp would never leave the crew under any other circumstance,)

It's kind of weird I guess.

 

[Veelk]

I can see that, on the flip side, me the reader understands what each character has been though. So it's easy for me to understand their decisions a little better. But I can see the lack of empathy being a problem. Though you also remember that this is also the group that was willing to ditch Usopp. (Really, Zoro was kind of being an ass about it) Despite saving their asses and know the whole situation was because they were hopped up on emotion. And the ship meant a lot to them. (I'm pretty sure that Usopp would never leave the crew under any other circumstance,)

It's kind of weird I guess.

The bolded basically describes everything in OP.

The Usopp incident (along with the Ace incident) are literally the only 2 times in the entire manga I felt emotion for the characters. With Usopp, Oda only addressed the internal feelings of the characters because he couldn't avoid it to make the conflict happen. Usopp HAD to say he was attached to the ship, and Luffy HAD to assert his authority, which made for actual realistic drama, which was the highest point of writing for OP and it annoys me nothing like it has been done in the crew since. I also feel that Usopp is the only character that actually developed in the entire manga.

The rest of the crew crying over the Going Merry, or how it turned out to be actually alive, was stupid as hell. Even when Oda has a good thing going, he tries to make it as sad as possible to the point of stupidity, which actually removes a lot of the sadness for me. Usopp learning to let go of a precious possession from a loved one? Poignant. The entire crew, including the ones that don't have any attachment to it mourning the Going Merry, who is actually sapient because of the INTENSE LOVE that the crew showed it? Hilariously melodramatic.

 

[360pages]

The bolded basically describes everything in OP.

The Usopp incident (along with the Ace incident) are literally the only 2 times in the entire manga I felt emotion for the characters. With Usopp, Oda only addressed the internal feelings of the characters because he couldn't avoid it to make the conflict happen. Usopp HAD to say he was attached to the ship, and Luffy HAD to assert his authority, which made for actual realistic drama, which was the highest point of writing for OP and it annoys me nothing like it has been done in the crew since.

The rest of the crew crying over the Going Merry, or how it turned out to be actually alive, was stupid as hell. Even when Oda has a good thing going, he tries to make it as sad as possible to the point of stupidity, which actually removes a lot of the sadness for me. Usopp learning to let go of a precious possession from a loved one? Poignant. The entire crew, including the ones that don't have any attachment to it mourning the Going Merry, who is actually sapient because of the INTENSE LOVE that the crew showed it? Hilariously melodramatic.

It was weird, since the only members that would really care about it would be Luffy, Nami, Zoro and Usopp. I was more talking about what happened afterward, and Zoro's weird aversion to talking to Usopp. Like I said, if he was planning on leaving the Crew he wouldn't have came back and risked his life at the Lobby. You'd think that would be apologize enough. Considering Zoro always seemed like the type of character that took actions far over words.

 

[Veelk]

It was weird, since the only members that would really care about it would be Luffy, Nami, Zoro and Usopp. I was more talking about what happened afterward, and Zoro's weird aversion to talking to Usopp. Like I said, if he was planning on leaving the Crew he wouldn't have came back and risked his life at the Lobby. You'd think that would be apologize enough. Considering Zoro always seemed like the type of character that took actions far over words.

I honestly haven't even noticed if that's the case. I mean, Zoro doesn't talk much to anyone except Luffy and Sanji. Fewer and fewer of the crew talks to one another as it gets larger, and 2 members joined after the Enoby Lobby arc, so it might just be a byproduct of that.

It would make no sense, because Zoro DOES like Usopp. Keep in mind that he's the one that, after setting the rule that the first thing Usopp said would have to be an apology, he's the one that went "Huh? I didn't hear anything" when it wasn't. So if I don't get what he's passive aggressive toward Usopp for if he did that.

 

[FeenixRising]

lol I'm so glad I dropped Naruto after the Pain arc.

Anyway, I'm co-running a A:TLA/TLOK panel on Saturday at a local convention so that will be fun.

Good luck!

 

[Veelk]

lol I'm so glad I dropped Naruto after the Pain arc.

Anyway, I'm co-running a A:TLA/TLOK panel on Saturday at a local convention so that will be fun.

C2E2?

 

[360pages]

I honestly haven't even noticed if that's the case. I mean, Zoro doesn't talk much to anyone except Luffy and Sanji. Fewer and fewer of the crew talks to one another as it gets larger, and 2 members joined after the Enoby Lobby arc, so it might just be a byproduct of that.

It would make no sense, because Zoro DOES like Usopp. Keep in mind that he's the one that, after setting the rule that the first thing Usopp said would have to be an apology, he's the one that went "Huh? I didn't hear anything" when it wasn't. So if I don't get what he's passive aggressive toward Usopp for if he did that.

I was actually talking about that scene specifically, it was odd since that while an apology was probably necessary, It really was something they should all have talked about. Which luffy and the others were going to do.

Zoro stopped it stating the first thing that should come out of his mouth should be an apology. Even odder considering what the Going Merry did. You'd think something like that would probably be forgiven.

They were cool after that, but I found Zoro to be oddly cold during that scene.

 

[Veelk]

I was actually talking about that scene specifically, it was odd since that while an apology was probably necessary, It really was something they should all have talked about. Which luffy and the others were going to do.

Zoro stopped it stating the first thing that should come out of his mouth should be an apology. Even odder considering what the Going Merry did. You'd think something like that would probably be forgiven.

They were cool after that, but I found Zoro to be oddly cold during that scene.

Well, again. that's why I don't feel the strawhats don't act like human beings.

Willing to risk their life by fighting along side the crew in the most deadly battle yet? Meh

Apologizing for misbehavior? GET OVER HERE YOU BIG LUG ;_;

I have a feeling that when Miyazaki talks about his problems with anime, OP is exactly the stuff he means. OP feels like just this careful assortation of tropes, very carefully crafted, but so inhuman. This is just not how people act.

 

[360pages]

Well, again. that's why I don't feel these people act like human beings.

Willing to risk their life by fighting along side the crew in the most deadly battle yet? Meh

Apologizing for misbehavior? GET OVER HERE YOU BIG LUG ;_;

Yeah, I can admit it was weird. It was as if the scene itself was supposed to be before the Lobby or something. Because after all the shit they went though it seemed super stupid that Zoro didn't want Usopp to do as he pleased. Despite it being the first time that something like that happened. And Zoro knowing what the ship meant to him.

The entire scene felt really awkward and forced.

 

[Veelk]

Yeah, I can admit it was weird. It was as if the scene itself was supposed to be before the Lobby or something. Because after all the shit they went though it seemed super stupid that Zoro didn't want Usopp to do as he pleased. Despite it being the first time that something like that happened. And Zoro knowing what the ship meant to him.

The entire scene felt really awkward and forced.

But the thing is, I think it's obvious the other strawhats wanted to have Usopp join regardless of what he did. They want their playmate back. They would have accepted him even without the EL incident, because their super forgiving, and Zoro just reminded them they shouldn't be because then they're wusses or something. But they never wanted Usopp to leave, even when the conflict was in progress. Zoro is the only one that would have lost respect for Luffy and Usopp if things stayed as they were, and Sani later agreed once he heard Zoro's reasoning, but if he hadn't said that, they wouldn't bring it up the same way they never bring any of their past up. It's like, out of no where, they're SRS PIRATES and have standards of who can join. Why any of this is is not explained and still has not yet come up, because group conflict is so rare.

 

[Kinvara]

Also, after years of being super discouraged/depressed, I want to start writing again.

Do you all have any good story-writing tips?

C2E2?

The con I'm doing the panel at is nowhere near that big. haha.

 

[Veelk]

The con I'm doing the panel at is nowhere near that big. haha.

Damn. I was just about to say, small world and might have even seen you. Oh well.

 

[360pages]

But the thing is, I think it's obvious the other strawhats wanted to have Usopp join regardless of what he did. They want their playmate back. They would have accepted him even without the EL incident, because their super forgiving, and Zoro just reminded them they shouldn't be because then they're wusses or something. But they never wanted Usopp to leave, even when the conflict was in progress. Zoro is the only one that would have lost respect for Luffy and Usopp if things stayed as they were, and Sani later agreed once he heard Zoro's reasoning, but it doesn't make it any less bs.

Haha, I really like One Piece but I can admit its flaws most of the time. The thing is, Luffy wanted to become Pirate King, but he obviously use the word Crew as exchange for friends. And while he is the Captain it's obvious that he just wants to reach his goal with said friends. The Straw hats are Pirates in name only even in the universe they are in. That's not a bad thing, but it was weird how Zoro was acting like the Captain title really meant something all of a sudden.

That being said I like the characters enough to want to see them travel. And the cast is colorful enough. (Even if it's getting a little bloated to the point where not everyone has something to do in an arc anymore) That I can accept a lot of its problems.

 

[360pages]

Also, after years of being super discouraged/depressed, I want to start writing again.

Do you all have any good story-writing tips?



The con I'm doing the panel at is nowhere near that big. haha.

Writing, huh. Well, get an editor. As for the story itself. Depends on the kind, I say take it slow depending on the type of story. Have a moment where characters can shine and what not.

 

[Veelk]

Haha, I really like One Piece but I can admit its flaws most of the time. The thing is, Luffy wanted to become Pirate King, but he obviously use the word Crew as exchange for friends. And while he is the Captain it's obvious that he just wants to reach his goal with said friends. The Straw hats are Pirates in name only even in the universe they are in. That's not a bad thing, but it was weird how Zoro was acting like the Captain title really meant something all of a sudden.

That being said I like the characters enough to want to see them travel. And the cast is colorful enough. (Even if it's getting a little bloated to the point where not everyone has something to do in an arc anymore) That I can accept a lot of its problems.

The only thing I'm genuinely compelled by is the worldbuilding. I want to hear about the world century, and how the Celestial Dragons and Marines run the world (even though they laughably fail at literally everything they try. Seriously, name me one marine operation that actually accomplished it's intended goal). The mysteries it has set up are cool.

I would much rather follow Captain Kidd as the main character. Atleast he's a psychopath, so he wouldn't bother trying to make me feel pathos for these caricatures Oda likes to call characters.

Also, after years of being super discouraged/depressed, I want to start writing again.

Do you all have any good story-writing tips?

PM me so we can talk more in depth. Writing tips cannot be generalized and superficial except for one: Keep writing. Regardless of anything else, keep writing. Otherwise, it gets complicated. But I feel I have a good grasp on stuff, so I can be helpful.