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The Legend of Korra: Book 4 |OT2| ALL HAIL THE GREAT UNITER

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360pages

Member
Veelk said:
The only thing I'm genuinely compelled by is the worldbuilding. I want to hear about the world century, and how the Celestial Dragons and Marines run the world (even though they laughably fail at literally everything they try. Seriously, name me one marine operation that actually accomplished it's intended goal). The mysteries it has set up are cool.

I would much rather follow Captain Kidd as the main character. Atleast he's a psychopath, so he wouldn't bother trying to make me feel pathos for these caricatures Oda likes to call characters.



PM me so we can talk more in depth. Writing tips cannot be generalized and superficial except for one: Keep writing. Regardless of anything else, keep writing. Otherwise, it gets complicated. But I feel I have a good grasp on stuff, so I can be helpful.
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Pretty much, you can't really give tips unless you've read something.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
360pages said:
Pretty much, you can't really give tips unless you've read something.
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Personally, I don't like to give 'tips' in the form of 'this is what you should do', because then it feels like you're stealing the story away from the writer and trying to add your own input. I firmly believe that each writer owns his own story when writing it, so I try to discuss what that story in it's current version does, how it functions, rather than how it 'should' function, so the writer knows what to change or do on their own. I can give suggestions, but I always feel nervous doing so and only do so with permission, because it's always going to be 'their' story, not mine.
 
3

360pages

Member
Veelk said:
Personally, I don't like to give 'tips' in the form of 'this is what you should do', because then it feels like you're stealing the story away from the writer and trying to add your own input. I firmly believe that each writer owns his own story when writing it, so I try to discuss what that story in it's current version does, how it functions, rather than how it 'should' function, so the writer knows what to change or do on their own. I can give suggestions, but I always feel nervous doing so and only do so with permission, because it's always going to be 'their' story, not mine.
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Well, that is another thing. Which also makes reviewing or reading a story as it being written far harder than once it's finished. Something you have a problem with early on might give new insight in the character later.

It's hard to take, even harder to receive tips. Getting tips on writing style is one thing, but things like character and what not is another. Even more so if a reader can be impatient and want one thing one way.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
360pages said:
Well, that is another thing. Which also makes reviewing or reading a story as it being written far harder than once it's finished. Something you have a problem with early on might give new insight in the character later.

It's hard to take, even harder to receive tips. Getting tips on writing style is one thing, but things like character and what not is another. Even more so if a reader can be impatient and want one thing one way.
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It's complicated, but I've been taking creative writing that do this a few times a week for 2 years now, so I hope I have some skill at it by now. But it's wierd. We were just talking about revewing stuff as a writer.

My teacher once gave another writer a bad review. He was respectful, but he simply didn't like the book, so he praised what he could and criticized what he felt he ought to. Afterward, that author never talked to him again and criticized his stuff back. It was kind of bizarre that such an immature conflict could happen in the professional field. I think he said the author or the author's fans dragged his name through the dirt briefly. Then he was given another book to review by that author...and gave it back, because he felt he was too biased at that point to give it a proper review.

But yeah, the point of peer review and beta-reading is to help the writer, and despite my posts here, I know how to be constructive.
 
M

m_shortpants

Member
Me in this thread right now:

tumblr_nmwaeyVgBk1u0bx9po1_400.gif
 
3

360pages

Member
Veelk said:
It's complicated, but I've been taking creative writing that do this a few times a week for 2 years now, so I hope I have some skill at it by now. But it's wierd. We were just talking about revewing stuff as a writer.

My teacher once gave another writer a bad review. He was respectful, but he simply didn't like the book, so he praised what he could and criticized what he felt he ought to. Afterward, that author never talked to him again and criticized his stuff back. It was kind of bizarre that such an immature conflict could happen in the professional field.

But yeah, the point of peer review and beta-reading is to help the writer, and despite my posts here, I know how to be constructive.
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Accepting Criticism is hard as hell, there is also the type where you also have to filter out the kind that while nice and could be helpful you can't use right away and the kind that you can.

I've written stuff, still writing stuff. But until I get it almost perfect I wouldn't dare share it to anyone on Gaf. I still get reviews from peers and stuff. Looking back, and fixing old stuff is always the most painful.

That being said, as long as people can criticize my work and say they dislike it while understanding why I did some things some way. I can probably accept it.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
JadedWriter said:
You're not the only one. Seems like Veelk shed so much blood and tears over One Piece and Naruto.
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I think they're referring to the discussion right now about writing, which I think is pretty civil. And so was the OP discussion, I think. The Naruto discussion was only a bit rough with Icy, who I am starting to think is actually more contrarian than I am, atleast when talking to me.

360pages said:
Accepting Criticism is hard as hell, there is also the type where you also have to filter out the kind that while nice and could be helpful you can't use right away and the kind that you can.

I've written stuff, still writing stuff. But until I get it almost perfect I wouldn't dare share it to anyone on Gaf. I still get reviews from peers and stuff. Looking back, and fixing old stuff is always the most painful.

That being said, as long as people can criticize my work and say they dislike it while understanding why I did some things some way. I can probably accept it.
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Idk. I mean, I guess it's an attachment issue, but I feel I am pretty easy to accept criticism of my work, which I rarely consider perfect. In fact, one student replied with comments that I shouldn't change a word of my most recent story, to which I disagree a lot, but am glad they liked it lol.

The tough part is finding out which criticism is truly worth implementing and which is worth ignoring. In my recent story, they generally liked it, but they all had like 5 different interpretations of the events, and I'm not sure who to listen to lol
 
3

360pages

Member
I try to be, even when I disagree with people. Writing is something you just have to keep at and keep an eye out while looking at your earlier and later work. Writing is a really odd type of media that is far more wide of what is good and bad than most.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
360pages said:
I try to be, even when I disagree with people. Writing is something you just have to keep at and keep an eye out while looking at your earlier and later work. Writing is a really odd type of media that is far more wide of what is good and bad than most.
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Oh god.

Reading my older work is actually physically painful for me. I'm not joking, I have to force myself to read some of the monstrosities I've produced and it is literal torture. I eventually get through it and know how to fix a lot of it, which leads to a better work, but writing a first draft, waiting a week, and then rereading it makes me curl up into a ball and cry.

Turning the Veelk Machine on myself has lead me to being much more merciful than I used to be.
 
H

Hamlet

Member
Kinvara said:
lol I'm so glad I dropped Naruto after the Pain arc.

Anyway, I'm co-running a A:TLA/TLOK panel on Saturday at a local convention so that will be fun.
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Cool. Have fun.
m_shortpants said:
Nah, it's just that I've never seen nor read ANY Naruto or One Piece, so I'm totally lost.

edit: but yes, this is quite civil.
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Haha same here. I know nothing at all about Naruto or One piece aside from people telling me how bad Naruto is nowadays.
 
J

JadedWriter

Member
Veelk said:
I think they're referring to the discussion right now about writing, which I think is pretty civil. And so was the OP discussion, I think. The Naruto discussion was only a bit rough with Icy, who I am starting to think is actually more contrarian than I am, atleast when talking to me.
l
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I have a degree in journalism and creative writing so a lot of what you and 360 are talking about regarding criticism and writing tips is something I've been through in college already. Some people honestly don't know how to offer helpful criticism. You can ask questions for eternity, but if they're not the right questions that help the writer achieve whatever result that they're aiming for then it's just a giant waste of time. I actually relied on criticism a lot. Sometimes I think it's good to bounce ideas off a more experienced person as a way to find out if you're heading in a credible direction. Also does a good job of finding out potential plot points. What the writer does with the criticism and how they react to it is something you can't control. Regarding your massive Icy discussion I saw part of it as Icy being a bit hard headed and you expecting him to grasp that dumbing down his expectations for a show still won't mask the shortcomings of said show. If I'm interpreting that please let me know.
FeenixRising said:
You know what you and I haven't done in a while. Post awesome fan art.
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tumblr_nn5007oQrV1rl0dojo1_1280.png
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Eat it Toa.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
JadedWriter said:
I have a degree in journalism and creative writing so a lot of what you and 360 are talking about regarding criticism and writing tips is something I've been through in college already. Some people honestly don't know how to offer helpful criticism. You can ask questions for eternity, but if they're not the right questions that help the writer achieve whatever result that they're aiming for then it's just a giant waste of time. I actually relied on criticism a lot. Sometimes I think it's good to bounce ideas off a more experienced person as a way to find out if you're heading in a credible direction. Also does a good job of finding out potential plot points. What the writer does with the criticism and how they react to it is something you can't control. Regarding your massive Icy discussion I saw part of it as Icy being a bit hard headed and you expecting him to grasp that dumbing down his expectations for a show still won't mask the shortcomings of said show. If I'm interpreting that please let me know.
Click to expand...

With Icy, you basically got it. If you're not masking the shortcomings of said show, then you haven't lowered your standards, you've just applied them and didn't care that the show didn't match up to those standards. In other words, you just accepted the show for what it is, imperfect, but still worthy of love. I think it's a notion that you can't enjoy something that's flawed, so you have to alter something about yourself (change the standards so that it's not flawed in that context) to do it. Which is simply untrue. Loving that which is imperfect and accepting those imperfections as part of a work can arguably be a purer love than simply loving something because it's good. But no matter how I phrased it, he didn't seem to be understanding it, so I gave up.

But yeah, you're advice is pretty good. I often do end up giving "maybe you should..." tips, but the author is almost always asking for them. I just never cross that line unless invited to because, if nothing else, it just seems polite to wait for an invitation. But like I said, usually, simply saying "Well, this is how the story works for me because this and that." is enough to atleast give fellow writers some idea of what they've created and what they want to do with it. My only major point here is that the writer is paid every courtesy, because I feel it is too easy for critics to just take over the work saying "You should do this and this and this." because any objection on part of the author is just going to be met with "Well, you're biased, you can't say anything." It creates resentment in an environment that should ultimately be friendly and supportive. Giving a work to be judged is baring your soul to the world, and that is a line that should be respected.
 
M

m_shortpants

Member
Veelk said:
Keep it that way. Also, don't read bleach.
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I don't have the patience for those long ass shows/stories any more, so that won't happen.

In fact the only long ass show I watched was DBZ so I got off easy.

If an anime has more than 30 episodes I probably won't watch it unless there's some serious critical acclaim like FMA:B.
 
I

Icyflamez96

Member
Veelk said:
With Icy, you basically got it. If you're not masking the shortcomings of said show, then you haven't lowered your standards, you've just applied them and didn't care that the show didn't match up to those standards. In other words, you just accepted the show for what it is, imperfect, but still worthy of love. I think it's a notion that you can't enjoy something that's flawed, so you have to alter something about yourself (change the standards so that it's not flawed in that context) to do it. Which is simply untrue. Loving that which is imperfect and accepting those imperfections as part of a work can arguably be a purer love than simply loving something because it's good. But no matter how I phrased it, he didn't seem to be understanding it, so I gave up. .
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Wow you shouldn't have gave up because I understand your point after reading this post.

I'm going to keep using phrasing along the lines of "I don't take it that seriously" though.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
Related to the earlier Naruto discussion:

This is an actual panel from the manga.

s3blo.png



Even Sasuke is freaked out by Naruto and Sakura's feelings for him.
 
B

BKatastrophe

Member
The idea of being able to love something flawed is something a lot of people need to learn how to accept. Like, it's okay to not be super into the so-called "perfect" shows. I had a hard time with Breaking Bad. Depressed the shit outta me, so I bailed. People need to be okay with the shows they like being flawed.
Veelk said:
Related to the earlier Naruto discussion:

This is an actual panel from the manga.

s3blo.png



Even Sasuke is freaked out by Naruto and Sakura's feelings for him.
Click to expand...
meftV0q.gif
Click to expand...
.
 
J

JadedWriter

Member
BKatastrophe said:
The idea of being able to love something flawed is something a lot of people need to learn how to accept. Like, it's okay to not be super into the so-called "perfect" shows. I had a hard time with Breaking Bad. Depressed the shit outta me, so I bailed. People need to be okay with the shows they like being flawed.

.
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There's nothing really wrong with liking a flawed show because every show is imperfect in some way. Angel and Buffy have certain flaws, but I still have legit respect for them and still list them as good shows. Dexter...fuuuuuck is definitely a flawed show and something I'd still recommend to people as a form of entertainment, but always warn them that it turns to shit. Seasons 6 and 8 made me retroactively hate the show though and I honestly can't even defend them. I recognize that KLK is highly imperfect and I have no problem with a person saying it's imperfect, now when a person calls it "shit" I do look at them weird because it's not a shit show. I just think a lot of the content behind the show gets lost in the sensory overload aesthetics of the show itself, but that's my personal opinion. Breaking Bad I do like, but I think some people just get turned off by the tone of it and how pretentiously artsy it is at times with the camera work.
Veelk said:
With Icy, you basically got it. If you're not masking the shortcomings of said show, then you haven't lowered your standards, you've just applied them and didn't care that the show didn't match up to those standards. In other words, you just accepted the show for what it is, imperfect, but still worthy of love. I think it's a notion that you can't enjoy something that's flawed, so you have to alter something about yourself (change the standards so that it's not flawed in that context) to do it. Which is simply untrue. Loving that which is imperfect and accepting those imperfections as part of a work can arguably be a purer love than simply loving something because it's good. But no matter how I phrased it, he didn't seem to be understanding it, so I gave up.

But yeah, you're advice is pretty good. I often do end up giving "maybe you should..." tips, but the author is almost always asking for them. I just never cross that line unless invited to because, if nothing else, it just seems polite to wait for an invitation. But like I said, usually, simply saying "Well, this is how the story works for me because this and that." is enough to atleast give fellow writers some idea of what they've created and what they want to do with it. My only major point here is that the writer is paid every courtesy, because I feel it is too easy for critics to just take over the work saying "You should do this and this and this." because any objection on part of the author is just going to be met with "Well, you're biased, you can't say anything." It creates resentment in an environment that should ultimately be friendly and supportive. Giving a work to be judged is baring your soul to the world, and that is a line that should be respected.
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I think masking a shows shortcomings doesn't even really help the viewer either. I always bring up the show Baccano because it's something a lot of people on Gaf heap praise on, but it's just one of those shows where I'm like, "I don't get why people like this." I don't like the characters, dialogue, action sequences, it just seems over done just for the sake of over doing it and the story isn't that great either. The setting and time period is cool, but it just never clicked with me. I don't think any amount of lowering my personal standards would've made me like it. I think Icy sees the shortcomings of Naruto but he enjoys the show for what it is and the debate was just him defending what seem like the ass pulls of said show without seeing them as complete ass pulls, granted he seems to be more caught up with the manga since you retroactively aborted the fucking thing. I personally think story criticisms is an actual two way dialogue and that's the best kind of criticism and analysis. Now if the writer is too caught up in what's going on in his head and will defend any and all criticism and won't sit down and see that maybe something can be tweak and isn't perfect, then he's doing himself a bit of disservice as well because sometimes to get a good story out of your content you have to have another set of eyes on it to give you a more unbiased view of it. I've had various things changed in stuff I wrote and it's actually a lot of fun having an analytical back and forth because if the writer is actually good he'll learn something out it and figure out another way to write that scene or tweak the dialogue for the better in order to make more consumable for people that aren't just the writer.

I'm now watching Gurren Lagann and Kamina knows nothing of the ways of stealth, still best bro though. Why am I just now noticing that Leeron wears women's shoes? Just finished ep 2, show holds up pretty damn well still. Is Simone a bit of a subversion to Shinji from Eva?
 
J

JadedWriter

Member
Train of Midnight said:
Is this a Korra thread, or is this a stealth Naruto thread?
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It's both. Veelk really hates Naruto and I'm usually just struggling to figure out why the hell it's so god damn popular. It's even morphed into a stealth Young Justice and Justice League thread. Too bad nobody here is into Gundam as much as I am, it's even been a stealth Kill La Kill thread a few times.
 
A

Altairre

Member
JadedWriter said:
It's both. Veelk really hates Naruto and I'm usually just struggling to figure out why the hell it's so god damn popular. It's even morphed into a stealth Young Justice and Justice League thread. Too bad nobody here is into Gundam as much as I am, it's even been a stealth Kill La Kill thread a few times.
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I never understood the love for Young Justice. I love the Justice League cartoon series which is why I tried to stick with Young Justice but after the first three or so episodes of season 2 I just gave up. Don't care about any of those characters.
 
J

JadedWriter

Member
Altairre said:
I never understood the love for Young Justice. I love the Justice League cartoon series which is why I tried to stick with Young Justice but after the first three or so episodes of season 2 I just gave up. Don't care about any of those characters.
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I will admit that they added far too many in season 2 and the time skip probably was a bit off putting as well. After I got used to that transition and the new characters I was fine with it. The only one I didn't really like that much was Blue Beetle.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
Altairre said:
I never understood the love for Young Justice. I love the Justice League cartoon series which is why I tried to stick with Young Justice but after the first three or so episodes of season 2 I just gave up. Don't care about any of those characters.
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What I love about YJ is that the DC universe has never felt so big, yet so cohesive. It felt like there were a thousand plots going on, that characters didn't simply stop acting just because they are offscreen.

What I don't like about YJ is that it only had 20 episodes or so per season. It needed like 60 to give each character the appropriate screentime. We don't see most of the development that happens with the characters.
 
A

Altairre

Member
Veelk said:
What I love about YJ is that the DC universe has never felt so big, yet so cohesive. It felt like there were a thousand plots going on, that characters didn't simply stop acting just because they are offscreen.

What I don't like about YJ is that it only had 20 episodes or so per season. It needed like 60 to give each character the appropriate screentime. We don't see most of the development that happens with the characters.
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I personally don't think more would have been better. Neither the characters nor the storylines were particularly interesting to me. I was struggling to make it through the first season. Oh and the romance was pretty bad as well.
 
3

360pages

Member
I think my problem with Young Justice is that everything is really serious almost all the time. Even JL had a few joke Episodes here and there, YJ felt really dire most of the time. Not that that's a bad thing, but I can see how that can turn some people off.
 
3

360pages

Member
I miss Courage...

Also, I wonder what Brian and Mike are going to write next if they are separate.

Also, in unrelated Avatar news. Frieza's new form is estimated to be of the power level of. 100 quintillion
 
M

m_shortpants

Member
360pages said:
I miss Courage...

Also, I wonder what Brian and Mike are going to write next if they are separate.

Also, in unrelated Avatar news. Frieza's new form is estimated to be of the power level of. 100 quintillion
Click to expand...

Good thing Goku and Vegeta have access to the Super Saiyan Super Saiyan God form.

No, that's not a typo.
 
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