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[BY2K]

- Some of the best dungeon design in the history of the series.

- Wonderful over world (the sky is NOT the overworld, but I love it all the same).

- Beautiful cinematics.

- Constant change of pace.

- stunning music.

- gorgeous graphics.

- Great control scheme.

Is that enough?

That's better!

 

[Uchip]

Good God, guys, give us something, judging by the last couple of pages, the 7.5 seems not only justified but a little too fair for the game. You make it sound like a bad game period.

And I know some of you say it's still a great game and all, but give us GOOD comments from time to time.

gamers are like spoiled brats
myself included

 

[Magnus]

Almost three hours in and just headed into a dungeon for the first time. The road here has generally been long, boring and ugly, typical of many introductory portions of past Zelda games. I don't know why I expected anything different.

Several neat little things though. Decent 'quality of life' improvement via sprinting, the tip system and a greater sense of agency in navigation granted early on. I'm actually enjoying M+ sword control and combat more than I thought I would. It's easily the highlight of the game so far (tied with the orchestrated music). The brutal visuals certainly aren't. Why does this entire game look like a compressed YouTube video? Mario Galaxy, Xenoblade and many other Wii titles didn't suffer like this. I don't understand.

 

[AdamBot]

Wait a sec... people are getting this NOW? Where is it vaguely out?

Looks like some Wal-Mart/Sams Club stores don't know/care about the street date.

 

[The perfect Dark]

Finished the first Dungeon (for real this time^^) and in my opinion this is clearly the best wii game (besides SMG and SMG 2) and smashes TP into pieces...okay...exaggerating a bit ^^ ...but I see my GOTY here (Skyrim won't because of the many bugs and the bad perfomance).

 

[Sinthetic]

Don't forget that the game is out in many parts of EU and UK.

 

[Kard8p3]

So can we like Twilight Princess now?

Spoiler

I had a bad feeling when I read the Iwata asks that this was headed by the people who made Minish Crap. It was easily one of the worst Zelda games ever made not counting the CD-i games.

Minish Cap is amazing. The second half is easily the best part of any 2D Zelda game.

 

[Aristion]

Lol, this thread has taken a turn for the worse.

 

[TheCongressman1]

Oh wow the negativity in this thread is staggering.

Someone just get me this dang game already so I can form my own opinion.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure people had their expectations too high.

 

[DDayton]

Wait a sec... people are getting this NOW? Where is it vaguely out?

Looks like some Wal-Mart/Sams Club stores don't know/care about the street date.

Bah... I thought there had been some "offical" breaking of the street date, or something -- this just means a smattering of midwest/eastern stores sold their copies early, and perhaps one random store in southern California. The west coast tends to stick much more to the release date -- sadly.

 

[Glass Rebel]

Good God, guys, give us something, judging by the last couple of pages, the 7.5 seems not only justified but a little too fair for the game. You make it sound like a bad game period.

And I know some of you say it's still a great game and all, but give us GOOD comments from time to time.

Uh... you know what's really awesome? As someone who values a Zelda mostly on the quality of it's dungeons it felt incredibly awesome navigating the overworld to the dungeon because it's like you're playing a light dungeon to get to the real thing. I constantly kept thinking "wait... this is basically a dungeon, I just didn't notice." sogood.jpg

 

[guek]

Man, 3 hours to get to the first dungeon sounds short to me. I could see how that would feel long to people that are accustomed to 8 hour games but for me, 3 hours to get accustomed to the controls, the setting, do a few tutorial quests, sounds pretty straightforward.

But hey, I'm one of those few people that didn't think TP had a slow start the first time through. I could feel the drag on subsequent play throughs, but I thought it was a blast the first time.

 

[Refreshment.01]

The long appraisal:

-Restructuring. The experiment here consist of a fusion of overworld themed segments with dungeons. Solving puzzles to traverse the environments and earn the right to enter the temples sounds compelling. So what's the result?

a)Even more lineal progression, not necessarily a bad thing in itself. Some players tend to percieve this as something detrimental to exploration. I think the exploration is fine but what this setup ruins is the sense of discovery since you are fixed to traverse a single area at a time in the beggining.

b)Yet another empty overworld again. I won't dare to call this lazy but it does constitute a design shortcut.

Most will talk about the changes to game structure but in reality they don't amount to much. You see that's because Nintendo is so ceremonial about game progression. More than ever in the series the "themes" here come in "threes" and not just related to the tri force. So the ceremony forces the player through 3 stages, each with 3 similar sets of tasks per areas through the adventure.

In regards to other aspects of progression like plot, If you played other 3D zeldas you could guess more or less at what stages important game changing events will take place. If Nintendo keeps being this robotic in progression terms any change in structure will negate any feeling of freshness in this department.

The tale, since Nintendo gives this aspect of the game the "tool" threatment for a higher end gameplay purpose, i'll said is fairly involving and interesting. Animations and direction during cutscenes is the best in the 3D zeldas so far.

-Padding. They grabbed this fine colombian cocaine and procedde to dilute it with baking soda. Don't sync with the idea of collection marathons to extend playtime.

-The concept behind Fi is fantastic, the spirit that inhabits a sword evoking a Samurai tale. In practice Fi is a "pace killer", Nintendo handled the character in ways that are detrimental to the game even on a first playthrough even more so if one considers a 2nd one. In many instances the player is taken out of control to read through Fi's of times insubstantial blabering.

-This looks pleasing and even impresive when judged in the context of a previous gen game. Reality is things have evolved, compared to more modern console standards and other AAA titles not even the expertfully done art style can hide some of its obvious flaws, let's not even dare to compare to software running in a decent PC. This "impressionist" art style works best in enviroments with varied color palletes bathed in vibrant colors like Skyloft or Faron woods. On the other hand observe Eldin or Lanayru and the game shows its true colors or lack there off. When the environment is more homogeneous the armour of ilusion loses some of its shine. Low quality textures, low polygon counts form these characters and environments. It hurts specially the playing areas, were the geography seems to be formed out of surfaces with very sharp edges.

Watch the game run on an emulator just with higher resolution and better filtering and you'll witness the wasted potential of the art style to which the Wii hardware can't extract its full potential. Granted the art choice reaches some of its goals: distinguish the product and some what mitigate the outdated visuals.

Some condensed not sleep inducing observations:

+Reduced item count with varied and extended uses.

+Fantastic orchestrated music that could be considered the best in the series.

+Motion controls are the main atraction even more so than structure changes. It makes the game feel more inmersive and intuitive.

+The stamina system, i like how this works. Now with the ability to hop while climbing makes the navigation less tedious.

-GUI and HUD. Default HUD is an horrible spectacle. The pro option makes it a lot more digestable on the right side. The left side of the HUD need to be contextual.

-Zelda games could use some leader board implementations to inject some competitive nature to the game withouth interfering with the single player component.

Even with all that shit up there, still a game worth it of ones time and most play experience to any aficionado of the modern adventure genre

 

[Kai Dracon]

Sounds like you have it backwards.

TP was 'amazing' for everyone until a year or so later when everyone turned on it. And it's still regarded as a lower Zelda.

Having negative impressions about something doesn't mean anything other than the game failing to deliver to a set group of people.

Okay, let me be precise - TP experienced a hate backlash up to a year after it launched. (And I remember the usual random immediate hate from various people around the fandom at launch, too.)

Then four or five years later, most of the ambient hate it generated just seemed vanish, poof. And I wouldn't say it's generally regarded as a lower tier Zelda. Whenever TP comes up today, I've always seen it remembered very fondly, with more than a few people saying it's their favorite 3D Zelda.

But, as a side observation on that part, at this stage I think part of the problem is there is no real Zelda tier list - not as far as the 3D games go. Link to the Past is the best classic era game. But that's not saying much. It was a clear final evolution of much cruder 8-bit games.

But the 3D games? There's way too much childhood nostalgia clouding Ocarina of Time and creating false impressions of untouchable superiority - the truth is that the fandom always fights amongst itself about how every Zelda after Ocarina somehow fails utterly and for a while, is maybe the worst Zelda ever.

But, I just replayed Ocarina on the 3DS. The optimal version of the game. Fixed graphics, framerate, controls, fixed interface, fixed water temple. With that in mind, here's how Ocarina is a "big disappointment and a lower tier Zelda":

1. A horribly long, slow, grating opening. Running around a kiddie village, with no interesting dialog, and a dumb elf girlfriend for Link that never amounts to anything. The first dungeon is insultingly easy and simplistic. You have to go on fetch quests for NPCs just to get a sword and a shield. Then there's that frustrating trial and error Lost Woods maze, all this before the game even really opens up or gains any momentum.

2. You finally get to the real overworld, and it's so horrible. A big, empty, open field with no real enemies. So slow to drudge your way over as kid Link. Did I mention you have to do 3 full dungeons as kid Link before you even start to get advanced navigation options?

3. Let's not even get into the horrible Gerudo Fortress. Yet another stupid stealth mission. Those never work in most games, and this is Zelda; it doesn't need filler. Plus the map is nearly useless and it takes forever to stumble through it. Totally stops the pacing of the game too, just when it was finally flowing.

4. Really bad, simplistic combat; sure, ahead of its time with a z-lock solution to 3D action adventure brawling, but a pale imitation of tough and varied rooms full of enemies in Link to the Past and Link's Awakening. The only time they ever try to allow you to fight two enemies at once, the lock-on breaks constantly and is useless.

5. The bosses are all over the place. The camera doesn't work well with half of them leading to a bunch of cheap hits from out of the left and right side of your field of view.


... and this is the holiest of holy, the gold standard against which all other Zelda is continually crucified. The trick here, is that Ocarina's other qualities are good enough that they compensate for its many first generation 3D adventure game flaws - and the Zelda team's love of long openings in 3D games. Honestly, if The Wind Waker had been finished (by Nintendo's own admission!) it would have been objectively and design wise, mechanically the best 3D game until now, nostalgia for Ocarina placed aside.

I suppose this is why Zelda arguments erk me a bit. I believe there's a pretend standard against which all Zelda games keep getting measured and stated to be failures against, when after the end of the 16-bit era, there never has been a flawless Zelda game. They've all had noticeable weak spots as the team has struggled with 3D design and evolving technology.

Plus I just can't shake the feeling that if say, Skyward Sword was released with "Namco" on the box and I don't know, shit, Klonoa was in place of Link, people would be blown the fuck away and raving about how Zelda could learn a thing or two, and return to greatness Call it a hunch.

 

[Magnus]

God no. This intro has slagged on for fucking ever. Get me to interesting shit faster. The pretension observed in reviews and previews to 'more interesting characters' and a more meaningful storyline in this Zelda above its predecessors is horseshit so far. It's exactly the same.

I'm way too early to judge the game at large though. I'm really just commenting on the introductory hours.

 

[ASIS]

Man, 3 hours to get to the first dungeon sounds short to me. I could see how that would feel long to people that are accustomed to 8 hour games but for me, 3 hours to get accustomed to the controls, the setting, do a few tutorial quests, sounds pretty straightforward.

But hey, I'm one of those few people that didn't think TP had a slow start the first time through. I could feel the drag on subsequent play throughs, but I thought it was a blast the first time.

The beginning is faster than TP. and it actually throws you into an extremely short-straight forward mini dungeon to get accustomed to the controls.

I don't know, I also didn't mind the beginning of TP and I thought this was even better. To each his own I guess.

 

[oatmeal]

Okay what design decisions in Skyward Sword are badly designed?

And why are games like Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Wind Waker, and Twilight Princess are better?

Well, for starters. They didn't have all of the games to look at and go "what did we not make right here?"

OoT came out and was an international sensation. MM came out, kind of under appreciated because of how late in the generation it came. WW came out and got some initial backlash about the style, but people still loved it (other than the overworld/Triforce Quest/lack of dungeons). So they're prepping TP with these problems from WW and they fix the overworld and style and dungeons by changing it back to normal.

But it has its own problems like the horrendous start, rupee get text every time you turn on, and these are opinions that a LOT of people have voiced...and they don't go fixed.

I'm not saying the game is badly designed, I'm saying that there are bad design choices. The game is still Zelda, and even if it just copy and pasted and shipped, it would still be a great game. They've built an incredible formula here to work from and we just wish that they would perfect the issues rather than ignore them and do something else instead.

So while there are a lot of steps forward in the series, a lot of us feel that there are too many '2 steps forward, 1 step back', and it's a shame.

That's not what I mean by open design, I mean in terms of overworld structure. When Link walks across land in Ocarina of Time, it's in a huge open field.

I wouldn't call that open design, I'd call it open overworld. But I see what you mean, I misunderstood.

When he does in Skyward Sword, it's a condensed dungeon-like field. I don't really see how one can prefer the open one when it had practically NOTHING in it to explore in the first place, while Skyward Sword has tons of shit you can do in every area.

See, this is where we disagree. While the areas below are a bit larger than the areas in the other games...think back to what we had before this.

OoT, you have Death Mountain that has Goron City and the like. Gerudo Desert had the stealth stuff and all of that, plus the desert trek.

MM, every level has its own area and theme.

TWW, this one had the levels more secluded. But Dragon Roost has a little town embedded so you have to do several things (help out the kid with that shiny ball thing, etc.) first.

TP, this is the mother of 'shit to do' before a dungeon. Stuff like the red fish scent, and the path up the mountain which leads to snowboarding down to the mountain. Etc.

So every Zelda isn't just 'open overworld' and a dungeon at each branch. There has ALWAYS been an area that you must traverse to get to the dungeon. This isn't new at all. It's just slightly larger.

Wait what? You consider the desert switches to be a fetch quest? What in the flying fuck. You are in denial goddamn. I'm sorry but that's just way off.

Swearing doesn't make your argument any more compelling.

I consider a fetch quest to be anything that impedes the progress you're making. So yes, when I finally make my way through the desert and I'm all ready for the dungeon and they spring on you:

"OH WAIT, BEFORE WE CAN MOVE ON, WE HAVE TO ACTIVATE THE THREE SWITCHES!!!"

I consider that a fetch quest.

Having said that, the actual process involved was a lot more fun than dowsing for key shards and kikwis, and had its own puzzle elements built in. So it didn't feel like a chore.

But absolutely it is a fetch quest.

It isn't padding when it's the core of the game design. You basically admit that it's well designed but then say it's "padding" when it isn't. Every pre-dungeon area has things to do in it, it isn't artificially extending anything when you're actually solving puzzles on the actual overworld to net a result from, like, you know, dungeons. That's called gameplay.

I'm not the first person to use the word padding here. It's padding when you're making progress and they slow you down to set you off on some tangent. You need to

Spoiler

Spin the windmill? Do it...oh wait, the other one needs you to go down and find the propeller...sorry.

Why not just spin them and move on? How does that make it any more fun? If it was gone, would you miss it?

The core design of the game is the dungeons, and those are great. But each and every part of the game consists of choices that the designers made and just because it's Nintendo, and just because it's Zelda, doesn't mean it's the right choice.

What, in Skyward Sword, is "more of the same"?

*sigh*
If you'd read the thread, you'd see that there's a lot here that we've seen before...not going to list them all, but things like having three dungeons to complete before opening up and everything changes. (Every console Zelda game since LTTP (sans MM))

Having a themed area with a bunch of stuff to solve before getting to the actual level (Majora's Mask was built around this).

How about the whole 'waking up to open the game'? That's something that Nintendo has used in LTTP, LA, OoT, TWW and TP...and now SS. You'd think there would be more ways to open a game then having them wake up. I understand it, it's a logical starting point, but it's been done to death.

There's some changes (progression of the overworld, revisiting old areas in new ways, sword fighting controls) that are great additions. But you can't honestly say this is a brand new take on the Zelda franchise.

I thought you said you weren't being nitpicky?

And I said that getting in the way of your exploration, force feeding you bad dialogue is a nuisance. And the fact that I can change my HUD to 'pro' but I can't change my text options is lame.

That's not nitpicking. That's just a small part of how awful the character Fi is.

 

[oatmeal]

- Wonderful over world (the sky is NOT the overworld, but I love it all the same).

Yes it is.

Do the underworlds connect? Can you go from one to the other? No?

Well then they're not the overworld. They're just sections of land that lead to a dungeon, much like Majora's Mask.

 

[The perfect Dark]

 

[apana]

U cannot imagine my level of frustration at this moment.

 

[butter_stick]

The Swimming controls are just bad. There's no reason for them to be motion controlled. Hold A, use the stick to move. That's all they had to do. The reason they're a problem is the same reason the game ignoring the IR is a problem; the game assumes you've always got your Wiimote in the same position, and that you're not going to activate a menu while using it. While knowledge that doing this is bad helps prevent you from doing it, there are plenty of times where you enter first person mode for something and your scrolling away from your target because your Wiimote wasn't centered when you activated it. As the game has gone on I've trained myself to not do it as much, but I just don't understand why they went away from TP's fantastic IR controls. The aiming using just M+ feels sluggish and slow in comparison. It's my number one complaint with the game at this point; I feel like the controls are a step back from TP in everything except for the actual sword controls. They're fine.

Because people freak out if you don't say positive things; I can say the dungeon design in this game is exceptional, and the build up and execution of the fifth dungeon was just fantastic. The actual sword controls are fine, they don't work 100% of the time but they work over 85% of the time, which by motion control standards is a success. The structure of the game is good and bad, I really like how getting a dungeon feels more like a dungeon in itself, once you get past the vile fetch quests of the first two dungeons, the process is really fun and keeps you doing different types of things. The bad part is everywhere feels quite disconnected. Unlike Wind Waker or Ocarina, you feel like things are segmented in such a way that it's almost like different worlds. As I've said in this thread the Sky area is very disappointing and outside of three or four islands is just a repository for goddess cubes chests to appear. There's a couple of mini games, and an island with some sidequests, but overall you'll be struggling for things to do if you go off the beaten path.

Skyloft is a nice area, it's very much like Windmill Town in Wind Waker. I find the lack of a real day/night cycle to be a bit odd; you have to initiate a switch to night every time you want to do things, which kinda stops you from ever stumbling on a side quest. But the characters are great, and there are things to do, it just never feels like very much.

The story at the point I'm at (I've played pretty much non stop all day) is pretty bare. I like the characters; Zelda is great, Evil Guy Whos Name I Can't Spell is great, but there's still no motivation really, and Zelda's playing the whole "yeah I know but oh shit no time to tell you" card. Fi is boring and really does nothing at all, I've moaned about her enough in this thread.

So yeah. I can't judge the game until I've beaten it, but at this point I wouldn't put it above TP (my favourite 3D Zelda). Assuming it's actually complete I'm sure it can beat Wind Waker It has a lot of the charm that game had, though it's art style isn't quite as consistent and is more prone to looking "bad" than WW did. But overall it's still a nice looking game.

Nintendo NEED to stop forcing unskipable text on us. Stories, fine. But not Fi. Not "you got a bug, HERE IS ABOUT THE BUG. YOU GOT A COLLECTABLE, HERE IS WHAT IT IS". And please, stop showing something happening in a 5-10 second cutscene, then having Fi tell me what just happened.

 

[ASIS]

Yes it is.

Do the underworlds connect? Can you go from one to the other? No?

Well then they're not the overworld. They're just sections of land that lead to a dungeon, much like Majora's Mask.

You know what I mean, if you're not in a dungeon you are in the over world. You can count the sky as one but it's not the only one.

Truth of the matter is, this game doesn't have a traditional overworld, so whatever you want to call the surface, I meant that, and it's wonderful.

 

[DDayton]

But, as a side observation on that part, at this stage I think part of the problem is there is no real Zelda tier list - not as far as the 3D games go. Link to the Past is the best classic era game. But that's not saying much. It was a clear final evolution of much cruder 8-bit games

Yeah, everyone likes to complain back and forth and then prop up their personal favorite as "the best ever." Ocarina, Majora, Wind Waker, and Twilight Princess -- every on of them has had SOMEONE arguing why it's better than the others.

(...and Link's Awakening is the best "2D" Zelda game. I thought that was understood by all...)

 

[ASIS]

So yeah. I can't judge the game until I've beaten it, but at this point I wouldn't put it above TP (my favourite 3D Zelda).

I hope to god this becomes a more popular opinion. I think I love SS more, but I sure wouldn't mind if TP actually got the love it deserved.


SS can get its love 5 years later, no worries.

 

[Uchip]

Yes it is.

Do the underworlds connect? Can you go from one to the other? No?

Well then they're not the overworld. They're just sections of land that lead to a dungeon, much like Majora's Mask.

theres a game for you
I think its called skybrim? skylim? I forget
but it sounds right up your alley

 

[butter_stick]

I hope to god this becomes a more popular opinion. I think I love SS more, but I sure wouldn't mind if TP actually got the love it deserved.


SS can get its love 5 years later, no worries.

I loved TP from day one. It was basically Uber Ocarina to me. And I loved Ocarina!

 

[Kard8p3]

You know I really think just giving Zelda to a different team within Nintendo could help to make it feel fresh. I think EAD Tokyo should get a shot at it. Koizumi has already expressed interest in doing the next game just as Miyamoto has. In fact if they both co-directed the next Zelda I think it could really be something special.

 

[F#A#Oo]

Good God, guys, give us something, judging by the last couple of pages, the 7.5 seems not only justified but a little too fair for the game. You make it sound like a bad game period.

And I know some of you say it's still a great game and all, but give us GOOD comments from time to time.

Tbh so far the only valid complaint is probably to do with motion+ it can be a bit niggly...

Other than that the last 2 pages is filled with people who fail at reading and using common sense...

Someone was complaining about needing to buy a shield...well you are gifted one for starters...another person complained about needing seeds for slingshot and he trekked back...if they read the dialogue box when they recieved it they would know they simply need to crack open one of the many hanging yellow things in the tree's...

The "high/low" switch thing makes me laugh...because it only requires exploration in order to find the switches.

Honestly people nowadays clearly have issues with patience and needing to have their hand held...and it's because of these types of people that Nintendo continues to actually hold peoples hands...

 

[pringles]

So judging by many impressions of the last few pages, Skyward Sword is about as good as Starfox Adventures? Or maybe a little worse?

Dammit, I knew that Gamespot score was just based on hype, shouldn't have thought it deserved that high of a rating :/

Not even gonna bother playing this broken, soulless, empty, slow, overly easy, non-voiced, SD, predictable and disappointing mess of a game.

Thanks GAF members.

 

[ASIS]

You know I really think just giving Zelda to a different team within Nintendo could help to make it feel fresh. I think EAD Tokyo should get a shot at it. Koizumi has already expressed interest in doing the next game just as Miyamoto has. In fact if they both co-directed the next Zelda I think it could really be something special.

It's franchise fatigue, simple as that. Giving it to any person will still yield the same results. The fan base is just too divided that it makes you wonder why on earth is this series still held in such high regards.

The solution? Give the series a break (yes, an even longer one) or let it die off completely. At this point there will never be a game that will truly satisfy all fans.

 

[The Technomancer]

It's franchise fatigue, simple as that. Giving it to any person will still yield the same results. The fan base is just too divided that it makes you wonder why on earth is this series still held in such high regards.

The solution? Give the series a break (yes, an even longer one) or let it die off completely. At this point there will never be a game that will truly satisfy all fans.

I don't think it is. There seem to be a series of specific complaints that people are mentioning that have been problematic in every entry since OoT. Stuff they could fix

 

[Big One]

Well, for starters. They didn't have all of the games to look at and go "what did we not make right here?"

OoT came out and was an international sensation. MM came out, kind of under appreciated because of how late in the generation it came. WW came out and got some initial backlash about the style, but people still loved it (other than the overworld/Triforce Quest/lack of dungeons). So they're prepping TP with these problems from WW and they fix the overworld and style and dungeons by changing it back to normal.

But it has its own problems like the horrendous start, rupee get text every time you turn on, and these are opinions that a LOT of people have voiced...and they don't go fixed.

I'm not saying the game is badly designed, I'm saying that there are bad design choices. The game is still Zelda, and even if it just copy and pasted and shipped, it would still be a great game. They've built an incredible formula here to work from and we just wish that they would perfect the issues rather than ignore them and do something else instead.

So Skyward Sword has a worse start than both Wind Waker and Majora's Mask then?

Cause they sure did fix it. Whether it took you hours to complete or not, the beginning of Skyward Sword from the time the game begins, to when Link get his tunic, should only take someone 20-30 minutes at most. Any sense of it being overly long is the fault of the player alone as it's considerably shorter than the intro in previous 3D Zelda, sans Ocarina of Time (which still has a delayed, small intro). On my first game, it took me two hours. On my second it took me around 22 minutes. I timed both. Twilight Princess takes hours to do even if you know exactly what you have to do. There is absolutely no comparison here and I find it completely inane that they haven't "fixed" the intro problem when they already have.

See, this is where we disagree. While the areas below are a bit larger than the areas in the other games...think back to what we had before this.

OoT, you have Death Mountain that has Goron City and the like. Gerudo Desert had the stealth stuff and all of that, plus the desert trek.

MM, every level has its own area and theme.

TWW, this one had the levels more secluded. But Dragon Roost has a little town embedded so you have to do several things (help out the kid with that shiny ball thing, etc.) first.

TP, this is the mother of 'shit to do' before a dungeon. Stuff like the red fish scent, and the path up the mountain which leads to snowboarding down to the mountain. Etc.

So every Zelda isn't just 'open overworld' and a dungeon at each branch. There has ALWAYS been an area that you must traverse to get to the dungeon. This isn't new at all. It's just slightly larger.

Yeah clearly since they're all areas before the dungeon, that means they're all the same.

Yes, it's true. Every Zelda game has areas to conquer before dungeons. That's the structure of Zelda.

However to equate that on that level alone is just pure superficial when the design of said areas are drastically different between the 2D games, Zelda II, the 3D games, the DS games, and Skyward Sword.

It's like complaining that the game is the same because you collect things in threes...oh wait, you already have.

Swearing doesn't make your argument any more compelling.

I consider a fetch quest to be anything that impedes the progress you're making. So yes, when I finally make my way through the desert and I'm all ready for the dungeon and they spring on you:

"OH WAIT, BEFORE WE CAN MOVE ON, WE HAVE TO ACTIVATE THE THREE SWITCHES!!!"

I consider that a fetch quest.

Having said that, the actual process involved was a lot more fun than dowsing for key shards and kikwis, and had its own puzzle elements built in. So it didn't feel like a chore.

But absolutely it is a fetch quest.

Aside from proving that you have no idea what a fetch quest actually is anymore, none of the elements in the game are "impending" on the main quest. Those elements are the main quest. Do you consider being forced to get the mirror in A Link to the Past a "fetch quest" that "impedes on the gameplay" too?

If you'd read the thread, you'd see that there's a lot here that we've seen before...not going to list them all, but things like having three dungeons to complete before opening up and everything changes. (Every console Zelda game since LTTP (sans MM))

Having a themed area with a bunch of stuff to solve before getting to the actual level (Majora's Mask was built around this).

How about the whole 'waking up to open the game'? That's something that Nintendo has used in LTTP, LA, OoT, TWW and TP...and now SS. You'd think there would be more ways to open a game then having them wake up. I understand it, it's a logical starting point, but it's been done to death.

There's some changes (progression of the overworld, revisiting old areas in new ways, sword fighting controls) that are great additions. But you can't honestly say this is a brand new take on the Zelda franchise.

So now, instead of actual gameplay, you're deconstructing the narrative. "The narrative is the same, so it's the same." is what your point basically is. Narrative has absolutely nothing to do with the core gameplay and level design and I really don't want to lay this shit out for you for something so obliviously obvious. Maybe I do cause you can't tell the difference between the things leading to a dungeon in Majora's Mask, and the things leading to a dungeon in Skyward Sword. Anyone who plays games to play games should see how drastically different Skyward Sword is from the other Zelda games.

Your comparisons in the various quotes here are similar elements, but none of them are designed the same way they are in Zelda games in Skyward Sword. Absolutely none. This is an undeniable and straight up fact that the game really does change the entire structure of the level design to be dungeon-like rather than focused on wide areas to explore. Of course you can continue to be deluded that the Gerudo Desert is the equivalent of the Lanaryu Desert, but until you actually replay the games you're talking about you simply won't understand why. I highly suggest this next week you go back and play Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess after playing Skyward Sword.

 

[guek]

Tbh so far the only valid complaint is probably to do with motion+ it can be a bit niggly...

Other than that the last 2 pages is filled with people who fail at reading and using common sense...

Someone was complaining about needing to buy a shield...well you are gifted one for starters...another person complained about needing seeds for slingshot and he trekked back...if they read the dialogue box when they recieved it they would know they simply need to crack open one of the many hanging yellow things in the tree's...

The "high/low" switch thing makes me laugh...because it only requires exploration in order to find the switches.

Honestly people nowadays clearly have issues with patience and needing to have their hand held...and it's because of these types of people that Nintendo continues to actually hold peoples hands...

I blame 8hr shooters. I enjoy a lot of shooters myself, and while it says nothing about the quality of campaigns, most shooters are very short in length and beaten mostly be shooting from A to B in a linear path. Similar things could be said about other action games like God of War and (presumably, I've never actually played it) Uncharted.

Now that I think about it though, there aren't too many zelda-esque games anymore (puzzle-adventure-action games).

 

[ASIS]

I don't think it is. There seem to be a series of specific complaints that people are mentioning that have been problematic in every entry since OoT. Stuff they could fix

There's a reason why they didn't fix them you know.

 

[butter_stick]

Zelda doesn't need to "satisfy all fans". It just needs to be a good game.

SS is a good game. It'll sell plenty. Will it sell enough to justify 5 years of work? Who knows. But the series isn't going away.

The issue (be it good or bad) with Zelda is it always feels like Zelda. Mario Galaxy didn't feel like Mario 64, but this game still feels like Ocarina. Obviously the stuff around Link has changed, but the game is very reminiscent still of Ocarina. The franchise needs it's Resident Evil 4 moment. The point where it once again becomes completely unique from the games before it.

There's a reason why they didn't fix them you know.

Because they keep thinking their games need to be simplistic so children can play?

 

[Kard8p3]

It's franchise fatigue, simple as that. Giving it to any person will still yield the same results. The fan base is just too divided that it makes you wonder why on earth is this series still held in such high regards.

The solution? Give the series a break (yes, an even longer one) or let it die off completely. At this point there will never be a game that will truly satisfy all fans.

It's strange though because in the last five years we've probably had more Mario platformers than any other time in the history of Nintendo and those games are just as popular as they've ever been despite not have a huge structural change since Mario 64.

 

[Caelus]

The introduction was not that slow, I think people were doing things that were optional, like practicing swordplay or getting the cat when you clearly don't have to. The intro's like 45 minutes.

 

[Togglesworlh]

There's a reason why they didn't fix them you know.

Because they're stupid and/or lazy?

Give me one good reason I can't flip a switch in the options menu to disable text pop-ups every time I open a chest. Why I can't turn off the Helpful Always-with-You Side Character (in this case Fi).

 

[ASIS]

Because they keep thinking their games need to be simplistic so children can play?

Well, kind of, but I mean there are different demographics that have different kinds of appeal. The only direction Nintendo didn't take the series is a complete throwback to Zelda 1. And don't tell me it won't piss fans off.

Because they're stupid and/or lazy?

Give me one good reason I can't flip a switch in the options menu to disable text pop-ups every time I open a chest. Why I can't turn off the Helpful Always-with-You Side Character (in this case Fi).

. . . I was talking about more important stuff than that. But yeah they should have made that stuff optional.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

Man, 3 hours to get to the first dungeon sounds short to me. I could see how that would feel long to people that are accustomed to 8 hour games but for me, 3 hours to get accustomed to the controls, the setting, do a few tutorial quests, sounds pretty straightforward.

But hey, I'm one of those few people that didn't think TP had a slow start the first time through. I could feel the drag on subsequent play throughs, but I thought it was a blast the first time.

Has any Zelda game besides Twilight Princess taken much longer than an hour to get to the first dungeon?

 

[oatmeal]

Okay, let me be precise - TP experienced a hate backlash up to a year after it launched. (And I remember the usual random immediate hate from various people around the fandom at launch, too.)

Then four or five years later, most of the ambient hate it generated just seemed vanish, poof. And I wouldn't say it's generally regarded as a lower tier Zelda. Whenever TP comes up today, I've always seen it remembered very fondly, with more than a few people saying it's their favorite 3D Zelda.

But, as a side observation on that part, at this stage I think part of the problem is there is no real Zelda tier list - not as far as the 3D games go. Link to the Past is the best classic era game. But that's not saying much. It was a clear final evolution of much cruder 8-bit games.

But the 3D games? There's way too much childhood nostalgia clouding Ocarina of Time and creating false impressions of untouchable superiority - the truth is that the fandom always fights amongst itself about how every Zelda after Ocarina somehow fails utterly and for a while, is maybe the worst Zelda ever.

But, I just replayed Ocarina on the 3DS. The optimal version of the game. Fixed graphics, framerate, controls, fixed interface, fixed water temple. With that in mind, here's how Ocarina is a "big disappointment and a lower tier Zelda":

1. A horribly long, slow, grating opening. Running around a kiddie village, with no interesting dialog, and a dumb elf girlfriend for Link that never amounts to anything. The first dungeon is insultingly easy and simplistic. You have to go on fetch quests for NPCs just to get a sword and a shield. Then there's that frustrating trial and error Lost Woods maze, all this before the game even really opens up or gains any momentum.

2. You finally get to the real overworld, and it's so horrible. A big, empty, open field with no real enemies. So slow to drudge your way over as kid Link. Did I mention you have to do 3 full dungeons as kid Link before you even start to get advanced navigation options?

3. Let's not even get into the horrible Gerudo Fortress. Yet another stupid stealth mission. Those never work in most games, and this is Zelda; it doesn't need filler. Plus the map is nearly useless and it takes forever to stumble through it. Totally stops the pacing of the game too, just when it was finally flowing.

4. Really bad, simplistic combat; sure, ahead of its time with a z-lock solution to 3D action adventure brawling, but a pale imitation of tough and varied rooms full of enemies in Link to the Past and Link's Awakening. The only time they ever try to allow you to fight two enemies at once, the lock-on breaks constantly and is useless.

5. The bosses are all over the place. The camera doesn't work well with half of them leading to a bunch of cheap hits from out of the left and right side of your field of view.


... and this is the holiest of holy, the gold standard against which all other Zelda is continually crucified. The trick here, is that Ocarina's other qualities are good enough that they compensate for its many first generation 3D adventure game flaws - and the Zelda team's love of long openings in 3D games. Honestly, if The Wind Waker had been finished (by Nintendo's own admission!) it would have been objectively and design wise, mechanically the best 3D game until now, nostalgia for Ocarina placed aside.

I suppose this is why Zelda arguments erk me a bit. I believe there's a pretend standard against which all Zelda games keep getting measured and stated to be failures against, when after the end of the 16-bit era, there never has been a flawless Zelda game. They've all had noticeable weak spots as the team has struggled with 3D design and evolving technology.

Plus I just can't shake the feeling that if say, Skyward Sword was released with "Namco" on the box and I don't know, shit, Klonoa was in place of Link, people would be blown the fuck away and raving about how Zelda could learn a thing or two, and return to greatness Call it a hunch.

Good post, but it feels like you're arguing something completely different.

OoT has problems, most of which were overlooked at the time because of how new and innovative it was.

TP was attempting to be 'OoT redux' and while it succeeded in a lot, it failed in others.

SS is a great game, but it isn't trying to set a new standard, it's just another version of Zelda. The hype on the Wii U will be bigger because we finally get to see what Nintendo can do in HD (and I'm sure it will be amazing).

But this just feels like another iteration of OoT with no new additions to really push the series forward. The sword combat is nice, but it's replacing button presses with movements that correspond to an enemies weakpoint.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Well now... this is interesting. People seem to be very divisive about this game, eh?

As for myself, I've just reached the second area (Eldin) and this is my impression thus far:

- I jump onto this game after I finished Uncharted 3, and even so, I personally do not find the graphics as underwhelming. If anything, I really prefer this game's graphical showcase than that of Uncharted 3. A lot more charming, lovely, and lively in my opinion.

- The soundtrack so far do not disappoint. The music of Link's first real meeting with Fi, for example, is fantastic. The flying music is also very majestic and grandeur, I love it. And the various music change on the bazaar depending on the vendor Link is visiting is great too. The Skyloft's music is very enjoyable as well.

- People really complain that the opening is slow? Well I'll be.... Maybe it's just a matter of different type of gamers, but I personally really enjoy the opening section of this game, from the moment Link the sleepyhead wakes up from his bed to the moment he first dressed in the legendary green tunic, it's all very enjoyable.

- Personally, I think Zelda is really likable, and I love how Nintendo portrays her relationship with Link in this game.

- Surprisingly, the first dungeon is quite short. Scratch that, very short compared to the usual Zelda dungeons. Comparing the length of this dungeon to the Forest Temple of Twilight princess, for example, is like comparing heaven and earth. Maybe the Faron Wood section before the first temple counts as the overall dungeon itself? Regardless, it feels really short for me.

- So far, I really do not find Fi to be annoying or anything like that. Hmm, if I have a small complaint about her is how I need to click a few buttons to reach her 'Hints' and 'Rumors' section. Listening to her describing Skyloft's town folks is enjoyable

- Now as for the biggest one, the Motion+ implementation. I personally think that it is very smooth most of the time--there are times, yes, when it feels somewhat janky but those times are not big/significant enough for me to say, "Fuck this shit!" The gyro aiming feels precise to me--less faster than IR aiming, sure, but the impact is very negligible and it feels good not to be bothered by "Please aim your Wii Remote to the TV" hogwash anymore. The sword fighting so far has been great, with the first bossfight as the real highlight so far.

The issue (be it good or bad) with Zelda is it always feels like Zelda. Mario Galaxy didn't feel like Mario 64, but this game still feels like Ocarina. Obviously the stuff around Link has changed, but the game is very reminiscent still of Ocarina. The franchise needs it's Resident Evil 4 moment. The point where it once again becomes completely unique from the games before it.

But this just feels like another iteration of OoT with no new additions to really push the series forward. The sword combat is nice, but it's replacing button presses with movements that correspond to an enemies weakpoint.

*Scratches head*

I very strongly disagree with both of you. So far not even once I said to myself, "Wow, this is very OoT!" Not even once. And the full implementation of the Motion+ itself already gifted SS the 'completely unique' feeling against the other Zelda games before it.

Really, I personally think that the fact that Nintendo is brave enough to dare the risk implementing full Motion+ to one of its biggest flagship series speak volumes about their commitment to change.

 

[Big One]

The issue (be it good or bad) with Zelda is it always feels like Zelda. Mario Galaxy didn't feel like Mario 64, but this game still feels like Ocarina. Obviously the stuff around Link has changed, but the game is very reminiscent still of Ocarina.

Yeaaah...you're full of shit right there. Skyward Sword basically is Super Mario Galaxy, but for Zelda. The drastically different level design that returns to condensed 2D roots is one of the comparisons I could make, as is the fact that everything featured in the game is more or less brand new to the franchise (there is literally no old puzzles, except for swiches). The graphical style is also very similar and so is the gameplay elements.

 

[oatmeal]

You know what I mean, if you're not in a dungeon you are in the over world. You can count the sky as one but it's not the only one.

Truth of the matter is, this game doesn't have a traditional overworld, so whatever you want to call the surface, I meant that, and it's wonderful.

Yeah they are pretty cool.

However, I think you have to consider the sky the overworld simply because it's the hub that connects the entire game. That's kind of always been the overworlds design in Zelda.

 

[BY2K]

Because they keep thinking their games need to be simplistic so children can play?

They want 5 years old to be able to play this thing. Do you seriously think a 5 years old could finish any Zelda game without any directions?

 

[Hot Coldman]

They want 5 years old to be able to play this thing. Do you seriously think a 5 years old could finish any Zelda game without any directions?

Cue someone going YEAH COZ I BEAT LOZ IT WHEN I WAS FIVE, forgetting that was at the dawn of Japanese game development and people didn't know better, plus kids were more used to that kind of thing

 

[thomasmahler]

I really don't like the upgrade system. It's completely non-realtime and you don't really need it. This very much feels like a tacked-on thing that was more of an afterthought, really.

When I first heard that Skyward Sword would have upgrades, I thought it'd probably be a bit more like CaveStory - You have a Sword that starts out at LVL1, then you upgrade it to LVL2 by hitting enemies and it does more damage. LVL3 and it's always ready to shoot, LVL4 would increase damage of the sword and range of the shot, etc.

But this is kinda meh. It's useless so far. I have to find go to Skyloft and write down which things I need to find, then grind around in some place hoping that I'll find that stuff there and go back to the smithy so he permaupgrades my items. That's just not good design. The items should level with me. Compare this to how satisfying it feels to upgrade your character in Skyrim.

And yes, this mechanic would've fit perfectly into Zelda. For shits sake, even Zelda 1 allowed you to 'upgrade' your sword by just having full health. Now expand upon this system and it could be more than awesome to give all the items a bit more pep.

Is there any upgrade in the game that you REALLY need?

 

[oatmeal]

theres a game for you
I think its called skybrim? skylim? I forget
but it sounds right up your alley

Why? Because it has an overworld?

I enjoyed Oblivion (hated Fallout 3), but they don't really compare to Zelda. Different game altogether.

I'm not the one bringing it up in here, so you shouldn't either.

Zelda's overworld has always been the hub that connects everything...has it not? And what connects everything in this game? The sky.

So the sky is the overworld.

At least in this game it's not as big as, say, the ocean in TWW. It's quick to get across (especially if you hit the boosters)...but it is what it is. An overworld.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

They want 5 years old to be able to play this thing. Do you seriously think a 5 years old could finish any Zelda game without any directions?

Is that something they have specifically said? Honestly curious.

 

[butter_stick]

They want 5 years old to be able to play this thing. Do you seriously think a 5 years old could finish any Zelda game without any directions?

I'm pretty sure it says 12+ on the UK box.

And I have no problem with the games being accessible, but they should offer the option to not be treated like an 8 year old. Plus let's not forget a lot of us were probably young and without Internet and still managed to beat the 90s and 80s Zeldas.