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[XiaNaphryz]

Look at all of you people targeting Harden as if that is The only thing he does and not pass to others for assists. ALL OF YOU! You can't tell me that you'll hate his game if he's on your team too.

Hell yes I would.

Fuck that.

For anyone who saw last night's game, you can clearly see Harden try and get contact on his last three attempt at the end of the first half. The jumping forward trying to bump into someone was blatantly obvious.

 

[Dynomutt]

NBA has been garbage to watch for years. This is just one part of an enormous foul problem that makes the game extremely unpleasant to watch.

Easy solution....

#bringbackthehandcheck

#bringbackthehandcheck

 

[phanphare]

Hell yes I would.

Fuck that.

For anyone who saw last night's game, you can clearly see Harden try and get contact on his last three attempt at the end of the first half. The jumping forward trying to bump into someone was blatantly obvious.

omg that gif...

 

[SwipeLeftHoney]

Hell yes I would.

Fuck that.

For anyone who saw last night's game, you can clearly see Harden try and get contact on his last three attempt at the end of the first half. The jumping forward trying to bump into someone was blatantly obvious.

He's taking a page out of Kobe's book here. Kobe made a career using these same exploits if not more.

 

[The Albatross]

Harden can have bad games too. And do not tell me he is the only person drawing these fouls.

The thread is called "The NBA has a 3-point foul problem," not that the problem is with Harden... It's not, it's an officiating/rules problem. Harden's one of the best at drawing these fouls, same with Chris Paul, Paul Pierce, and a dozen other guys. I'm a Celtics fan and I hate Marcus Smart for flops and I hated Paul Pierce for drawing those BS fouls against straight up defenders for all of his career. You like to see your team win, but you still hate shit like that.

The league determined 20+ years ago, that high scores were more important than entertaining basketball, or at least, that high scores were an indication of entertaining basketball, which they're not. Officials are more apt to call a BS defensive foul that sends a star to the free throw line than they are to call a blatant offensive foul that results in a turnover... because they've associated points with entertainment.

This post season, especially the first series, Harden went off with scoring, games of 34, 44, 35, and 37 points... He scored almost 200 points in 7 games. A problem for the NBA is that almost 40% of his points came from the free throw line in those 7 games. The NBA doesn't care because the stories of putting up 40+ or 35+ in a playoff game are good stories that get people to tune in... But in some of those games he took more free throws than field goals. For fans, free throws are boring... It's dead time, they usually are followed by official time outs, there's too many of them, and stars make free throws about as much as kickers make extra points in football. It's a boring play that interupts the flow of the game, but officials are coached to call defensive fouls at a high rate, and ignore offensive fouls or off-ball, non-shooting fouls. The screen and foul play that Harden does almost better than anyone is a great play by him, but on most of those screens, there's movement by the guy setting the screen, or at least, there's more movement by the guy setting the screen than there is a foul by the defender. League doesn't care because they think points = entertainment, and all points are good entertainment.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Easy solution....

#bringbackthehandcheck

#bringbackthehandcheck

Hand checking could also kill a lot of the modern offensive flow styles if defenders can just hold people moving off the ball like they used to be able to. Keeping up with someone going through screens is a lot easier when you can have other players bump and hold them along the way.

He's taking a page out of Kobe's book here. Kobe made a career using these same exploits if not more.

Kobe was never this blatant this often.

 

[Takuan]

https://streamable.com/g7xaw

I'm a rockets fan and have to admit harden is hard to watch.. appreciate what he does though, it's damn effective.

I put that on the ref. If they don't reward the strategy, that's just a poor shot and we don't have a problem.

How is this not an offensive foul?
https://streamable.com/g7xaw

He's just creating contact and putting up a low-percentage shot.

https://i.imgur.com/UqH0Ace.gif

Incompetent ref. Lord knows what he's watching.

 

[SwipeLeftHoney]

The thread is called "The NBA has a 3-point foul problem," not that the problem is with Harden... It's not, it's an officiating/rules problem. Harden's one of the best at drawing these fouls, same with Chris Paul, Paul Pierce, and a dozen other guys.

The league determined 20+ years ago, that high scores were more important than entertaining basketball, or at least, that high scores were an indication of entertaining basketball, which they're not. Officials are more apt to call a BS defensive foul that sends a star to the free throw line than they are to call a blatant offensive foul that results in a turnover... because they've associated points with entertainment.

This post season, especially the first series, Harden went off with scoring, games of 34, 44, 35, and 37 points... He scored almost 200 points in 7 games. A problem for the NBA is that almost 40% of his points came from the free throw line in those 7 games. The NBA doesn't care because the stories of putting up 40+ or 35+ in a playoff game are good stories that get people to tune in... But in some of those games he took more free throws than field goals. For fans, free throws are boring... It's dead time, they usually are followed by official time outs, there's too many of them, and stars make free throws about as much as kickers make extra points in football. It's a boring play that interupts the flow of the game, but officials are coached to call defensive fouls at a high rate, and ignore offensive fouls or off-ball, non-shooting fouls. The screen and foul play that Harden does almost better than anyone is a great play by him, but on most of those screens, there's movement by the guy setting the screen, or at least, there's more movement by the guy setting the screen than there is a foul by the defender. League doesn't care because they think points = entertainment, and all points are good entertainment.

For the most part ya. Officiating is crazy as well. They call fouls on other players to keep these stars in the game. Ignore blatant travel and carry calls as well. So much is wrong with today's NBA

 

[XiaNaphryz]

The thread is called "The NBA has a 3-point foul problem," not that the problem is with Harden

And I've updated it to better match the article in the OP.

But ultimately, the issue is with the refs consistency with how fouls are called and how certain players will get calls, and this has been a long ongoing issue.

 

[SwipeLeftHoney]

Kobe was never this blatant this often.

If I could post vids from my work PC I would because Kobe was pretty blatant. his kickouts on his jumpshots. He blatantly admitted a pushoff technique he used that would 90% of the time get called for a foul in his favor and put him to the line all the time. People tend to forget how bad Kobe was doing the same exploits

 

[SwipeLeftHoney]

And I've updated it to better match the article in the OP.

But ultimately, the issue is with the refs consistency with how fouls are called and how certain players will get calls, and this has been a long ongoing issue.

Totally agree with you. They want to add an additional ref for games next season but I don't think things will change.

 

[The Albatross]

Hell yes I would.

--James Harden gif--

Fuck that.

For anyone who saw last night's game, you can clearly see Harden try and get contact on his last three attempt at the end of the first half. The jumping forward trying to bump into someone was blatantly obvious.

This camera is even worse:

The call the ref makes is a shot clock violation... Yet... Harden fucking jumps with the ball in his hand, lifting both feet off the ground and jumping 1 foot sideways while looking at the ref.

1) Offensive foul
2) Travel
3) Another offensive foul
4) Another grievous travel
5) Changes his pivot foot

And the ref just stands there staring at them. What's even worse is that fans and other players are jumping up saying "WHERE'S THE FOUL!?!?!?" Because the state of officiating has led them to believe that an offensive foul and a travel should be a defensive foul. So, fans are complaining that the ref won't call a defensive foul, when the real problem is the ref won't call an offensive foul followed by the most obvious travel in NBA history (where he has the ball in his right hand and literally lifts both feet off the ground and jumps, then sets his feet and shoots...)

It's the state of officiating in the NBA. They won't call travels, offensive fouls, or anything else that's results in an offensive turnover when there's an opportunity to give points to a team.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I like how he uses his beard to draw fouls

that's a damn shame.

 

[Future PhaZe]

The league has a touch foul problem, not a 3pt foul problem

 

[SwipeLeftHoney]

This camera is even worse:

The call the ref makes is a shot clock violation... Yet... Harden fucking jumps with the ball in his hand, lifting both feet off the ground and jumping 1 foot sideways while looking at the ref.

1) Offensive foul
2) Travel
3) Another offensive foul
4) Another grievous travel
5) Changes his pivot foot

And the ref just stands there staring at them.

It's the state of officiating in the NBA. They won't call travels, offensive fouls, or anything else that's results in an offensive turnover when there's an opportunity to give points to a team.

I'm surprised they didn't call Lebron for the foul on the shot attempt LOL!!! But ya NBA officiating makes me feel like I'm watching a WWE event.

 

[The Albatross]

I'm surprised they didn't call Lebron for the foul on the shot attempt LOL!!! But ya NBA officiating makes me feel like I'm watching a WWE event.

Ya, just need Heenan to distract the ref for a low blow

 

[CopperPuppy]

He's taking a page out of Kobe's book here. Kobe made a career using these same exploits if not more.

"Made a career."

LMAO.

Hot takes here! Getcha hot takes here!

 

[Latvian Hitman]

Yep- this is definitely an issue and I think it's really hurting the game, not just because of all the times it gets called, but also because of all the failed attempts at getting it called.

It's classic rules lawyering, and it's fucking weak. There are a few things that need to change to minimize it:

1- Calls on screens need to be cleaned up. Moving screens need to be called as such. A lot of the gifs and videos in this thread show screeners simply bullying defenders into the shooter. That should be a foul on the screener 100% of the time.

2- If the screen itself is clean, the next thing to look at is potential offensive fouls on the shooter. Harden, Westbrook and CP3 are among the worst offenders. Harden often intentionally hooks the defender's arm first and then jacks up a shot with his other hand. WB and CP3 will often just slam into the defender, who is often locked in place by the screener. In either case, this is an example of the shooter initiating all of the contact. It's an offensive foul, and needs to be called as such.

3- A lot of these situations, even when the offensive player is actually fouled by a defender, should not result in shooting fouls. Continuation should require a higher burden of proof out on the perimeter, where scoop shots and one-handers simply aren't effective. If you're not actually in the act of shooting with both hands involved in bringing the ball up prior to being fouled, then you weren't in the act of shooting when you were fouled. You don't just get to hurl the ball underhand at the ceiling after the whistle and expect everyone to pretend you were shooting. That's horseshit.

 

[blakep267]

Another thing that facilitates this is the moving screens they never call

Yeah this is also a big issue. Steph and harden can have players do moving screens and nobody says a thing

 

[phanphare]

I'm surprised they didn't call Lebron for the foul on the shot attempt LOL!!! But ya NBA officiating makes me feel like I'm watching a WWE event.

if it was any other player in the NBA they probably would have

 

[SwipeLeftHoney]

if it was any other player in the NBA they probably would have

Pretty much ya... Ref saw it was Lebron and just swallowed his whistle

 

[Gotdatmoney]

if it was any other player in the NBA they probably would have

Lol I was just telling my friend. Only reason it wasnt a foul is Lebron is a bigger star. Which emphasizes how fucking stupid the whole thing is. The refs know this is bullshit.

 

[Nafai1123]

Look at all of you people targeting Harden as if that is The only thing he does and not pass to others for assists. ALL OF YOU! You can't tell me that you'll hate his game if he's on your team too.

Hardens game is a lot better this year, and much easier to watch in general....which is why it's such a shame that he's regressed into a completely new form of foul drawing BS at the same time.

You can be a fan of the Rockets and still acknowledge that Harden flopping is just bad for the game.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

Pretty much ya... Ref saw it was Lebron and just swallowed his whistle

Well, to be fair they had already let Harden get away with at least two offensive fouls by that point, so they might as well just look the other way...

 

[Just_myles]

Yeah.

Stop fouling a guy known for drawing fouls on threes.

This. Rules are fine as they are.

 

[otake]

I can't watch Harden play.

 

[El_Presidente]

WTF! I brought this up in the NBA community thread during the OKC v HOU series and was promptly shut down by the regulars/rockets fans.


I called it anti basketball and was saying how its hard to watch the Rockets play, even as a neutral, because Harden is a huge con man. He isn't even trying to score the ball most of the time, just hooking his arm and drawing the foul. Its infuriating and I couldn't imagine being a fan of a team he is playing against.

My other gripe is that he IS A GOOD PLAYER, why is he doing this? I understand the math part of it, but he is a sportsman first and foremost and should play the game the right way. He doesn't need the help. I guess all the other sports have been perverted so its just basketballs time.

 

[Hyperactivity]

MVP!

I feel like people who tout Harden over Westbrook as MVP have never seen Harden play. His game is like basketball cancer. Let's take an entertainment product and make it as unentertaining as humanly possible. Hey, instead of Guardians of the Galaxy, let's watch Jack and Jill. Adam Sandler puts up such great numbers.

Lol, this fucking thread.

Only Jokic regularly has more entertaining assists, for one.

How is this not an offensive foul?
https://streamable.com/g7xaw

It's not an issue of who initiates contact, it's an issue of the defender being in Harden's space. Imo, it's a foul that should require an inbound, shouldn't be a shooting foul, but it's definitely not an offensive foul.

Only time it gets hard to watch is when Harden isn't having a good game, or is slightly injured. When he's cooking there isn't a single non-Giannis or Jokic player I'd rather watch.

 

[Hyperactivity]

Also, it's not really an exclusive Harden problem anymore, I've seen this or an attempt at it multiple times per game this playoffs (although most of the people that try it don't understand how to draw the foul, why it's called a foul, the way Lou or Harden do - Westbrook's attempt was terrible, trying to force contact rather than letting it come or come close and exposing it).

 

[Latvian Hitman]

It's not an issue of who initiates contact, it's an issue of the defender being in Harden's space. Imo, it's a foul that should require an inbound, shouldn't be a shooting foul, but it's definitely not an offensive foul.

Definitely not an offensive foul, but to me, that's a no-call. What's the defender supposed to do with the screener right there- flop to the ground? As long as the defender is straight up and down in that situation (which Mills was) - that's a no-call.

 

[El_Presidente]

Also, it's not really an exclusive Harden problem anymore, I've seen this or an attempt at it multiple times per game this playoffs (although most of the people that try it don't understand how to draw the foul, why it's called a foul, the way Lou or Harden do - Westbrook's attempt was terrible, trying to force contact rather than letting it come or come close and exposing it).

If Harden is your favorite player to watch, you're beyond help and have possibly the worst taste in basketball Ive ever come across...

Bet you got that Harden poster hanging right between Divac and Laimbeer...!

 

[Hyperactivity]

Definitely not an offensive foul, but to me, that's a no-call. What's the defender supposed to do with the screener right there- flop to the ground? As long as the defender is straight up and down in that situation (which Mills was) - that's a no-call.

Not a no call either. It's not a rip through (not side-to-side), but it should get the same treatment - your hands aren't supposed to be there, inbound the ball from the side.

If Harden is your favorite player to watch, you're beyond help and have possibly the worst taste in basketball Ive ever come across...

Bet you got that Harden poster hanging right between Divac and Laimbeer...!

Watches game 1 highlights again...

what?

 

[Brunire]

Haha, this type of conversation has been had for many superstars over the years, especially Jordan and Kobe.

It almost always comes down to NBA officiating being terrible (and let's be honest, probably in large part because the league handcuffs officials in many ways.)

Like Jordan and Kobe, Harden is a very smart player who takes full advantage of the current state of NBA officiating. Hate the game, not the playa.

 

[Hyperactivity]

Hell yes I would.

Fuck that.

For anyone who saw last night's game, you can clearly see Harden try and get contact on his last three attempt at the end of the first half. The jumping forward trying to bump into someone was blatantly obvious.

Y'know Kawhi has been doing the same shit this year too, right? Not the 3 pt fouls so much, but the same types of foul drawing.

 

[The Albatross]

It's not an issue of who initiates contact, it's an issue of the defender being in Harden's space. Imo, it's a foul that should require an inbound, shouldn't be a shooting foul, but it's definitely not an offensive foul.

It should be a moving screen (offensive foul), and if not that, then simply a no call. Defender is going straight up with his arms, and Harden is making the forward movement into the defender.

Calling moving screens or having a no call would solve a lot of these problems, because *most* 3's where the offensive player is initiating contact are usually bricks, and a player only wants to shoot so many bricks in a game that they naturally stop taking the bad shot.

the offensive player setting the pick must remain stationary at the moment of contact with the defender (...) a screen is illegal if the screener moves in order to make contact, and obtains an advantage; the result is an offensive foul.

In this case, the screener moves twice, first he moves in order to initiate contact with the defender, and then he also moves once contact is made. I don't fault the screener, the league never calls these. If they call them a few times a game it'll dramatically cut down on plays like this.

 

[Syrus]

Harden is ao full of shit on his foul.

Its pure crap.

 

[Netherscourge]

LOL

LeBron ain't got nothing to bitch about. He's been flopping and inventing his own fouls for years.

I love at the end when they separate and LeBron jumps right back in under Hardin's arm all by himself lol.

 

[Hyperactivity]

It should be a moving screen, and if not that, then simply a no call. Defender is going straight up with his arms, and Harden is making the forward movement into the defender.

Calling moving screens and having a no call would solve a lot of these problems, because *most* 3's where the offensive player is initiating contact are usually bricks, and a player only wants to shoot so many bricks in a game.

Moving screens should get called more, definitely, yeah, I agree there, but the fighting over a screen using a hand on the player should be a call against the defender.

 

[Latvian Hitman]

Not a no call either. It's not a rip through (not side-to-side), but it should get the same treatment - your hands aren't supposed to be there, inbound the ball from the side.

Defender's hands are straight up at 90 degrees, he's on top of the screener and being jumped into by the shooter. That's a no call.

EDIT: Also- looking at it again, even though that screen is not egregious by today's standards, I'd like to see that get called differently in the future. The screener isn't really set and is sticking his left leg out much wider than I'd prefer to be legal. IMO- feet much wider than shoulder's width should result in a tripping foul if the defender's trying to fight over the top. Basically- the calls need to be adjusted so that there is some sort of scenario where a defender can actually play defense on all these screens being set above the 3-point line. Right now with what they're letting the screener get away with, all you can really do as the defender is chase, which is the next best thing to doing absolutely nothing.

 

[StrategyFan]

you can still be vertical and foul if you're not done moving

footwork is hard. don't know exactly what the rules are if you run into a screen though

 

[SYNTAX182]

Harden is an expert flopper for sure, the current way of calling these situations are too much in the favor of the offense. Hopefully they collect this data at the end of the season and have the refs look for these situations and make them a no-calls. I won't blame the refs though, it's probably hard to see these in real time. Only when it is slowed down is when you can really see it.

 

[Iadien]

LOL

LeBron ain't got nothing to bitch about. He's been flopping and inventing his own fouls for years.

The difference is that if LeBron doesn't exaggerate contact, it's hard to tell he's even being fouled a lot of times, because he just goes through people.

 

[DerangedHermit]

Y'know Kawhi has been doing the same shit this year too, right? Not the 3 pt fouls so much, but the same types of foul drawing.

I always like these kind of excuses. And as if it has been a thing only this year and at the rate that Harden does.

The difference is that if LeBron doesn't exaggerate contact, it's hard to tell he's even being fouled a lot of times, because he just goes through people.

Really? This is the reason you want to go with?? Really?

 

[pompidu]

Not the biggest basketball fan but the game treats players like snowflakes. I want some physical basketball, not a bunch of people tip toeing around and fouls being called every 30 seconds.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

I wish that we could send Harden, Griffin, CP3, and some of these other cheeseball players back into the '90s and make them try and pull that garbage on the Barkley, Malone, Oakley, Laimbeer, Payton, and Rodman players of the league. Griffin, Harden, and these other jokers would probably refuse to come out of the locker after halftime.

 

[CB3]

If the refs didnt call those fouls, he wouldnt do it. Pretty simple. Its a ref problem.

Its awful to watch, but he is trying to do what he can to get a win.

Lebron and Chris Paul get away with similar shit because the refs allow it.

 

[Nafai1123]

The temporary solution is for defenders to go under the screen and just let Harden shoot. He hasn't been shooting great from 3 anyway.

The long-term solution is that the league needs to look at these and adjust how they call them. IMO if the ball-handler initiates contact with the defenders arm and rips through for the shot, it should be an offensive foul. If the defender initiates contact with the ball-handler, it should be a non-shooting foul.

 

[Stat Flow]

The big problem is that he gets calls when he grabs the defender, and then throws up the shot. That shit is fucking dumb and needs to be stopped some how.

https://streamable.com/ohz5p

This is disgraceful

 

[Aggie CMD]

The league foul system exclusively benefits shooters. It is impossible to play defense on the perimeter in the NBA. They need to stop calling defensive fouls when:

• the shooter jumps into the defender
• the shooter wails his arms of feet like a jellyfish
• the shooter tosses a ball into the air to appear to be shooting
• the shooter acts like he got shot with a canon ball after being pinky clipped

 

[SYNTAX182]

This is disgraceful

Yeah that's the worst offender in my opinion. When Harden hooks the defenders arm trying to fight through a screen, the defender is not even ready but Harden sees arms, starts to put his arms under the defender to hook it then flops out a shot. That should be changed to an offensive foul.