I would watch a lot more basketball if they fixed these things.
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The NBA has a 3-pt foul problem, and it's associated almost exclusively with Harden
- Thread starter Pastry
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I would watch a lot more basketball if they fixed these things.
Gentleman Jack
Member
Think about it from Harden's point of view
in his mind, he's the victim
in his mind, he's the victim
Charles Oakley and Laimbeer probably wouldn't be able to make a roster in today's NBA. Don't get me wrong, they were good players, but the players today are better and the game has changed.
This is an annoying thing, but it's important to remember that the game is a far better product than the 90s or early 00s. This particular issue can be solved, it's just an issue right now.
Gotdatmoney
Member
If this is s defensive foul on Patty Mills there is basically no way you can chase a player around a screen. It isn't even a matter of contact. Basketball is a game with contact absolutely. Not every single bump or push is a foul especially when you are in front of your man restricting his ability to go through you.
Mills is cutting off Harden's angle totally parallel with his movement with his hands up and away. You can't play defense better than that. This is a total no call.
Hyperactivity
Banned
To draw fouls...
you have to be willing to take a ton of contact.
Modern player rest, train, and generally are far more on top of their health than those players.
They're also generally more athletic.
They would do better than most of the others
StrategyFan
Member
when the rules favor offense, it lets the little guys play the game
they already have a disadvantage
anything that lets giants with 10-foot wingspans play with their arms instead of requiring them to move their feet would ruin the game for everyone else
they already have a disadvantage
anything that lets giants with 10-foot wingspans play with their arms instead of requiring them to move their feet would ruin the game for everyone else
SoundofSilence
Member
Tell that to Knicks fans and see what happens.
The Albatross
Member
Think about it from Harden's point of view
in his mind, he's the victim
amazing post
Lionel Richie
Member
I'm sort of fine with Harden, but one kind of foul I've been noticing a lot in this post-season is a screen setter sort of pushing by moving his body sending the defender into the ball handler at the 3 point line, who will then flop like crazy and get the call. That's way more obnoxious.
Edit: I meant to say I'm fine with the regular Harden flop, but the one with the guy setting the screen is really aggravating.
Edit: I meant to say I'm fine with the regular Harden flop, but the one with the guy setting the screen is really aggravating.
It's probably time to consider moving the line back. Biggest problem with that is you would have to widen the court a bit to extend the corner three. Not sure how feasible that would be. But the three is way to important in basketball now.
As a former high school ref, these calls would be tough in real time depending on the angle. I generally think the state of officiating is terrible, but what Harden does would be tough unless you have the right angle. The refs just need to quit calling anything but clear fouls with Harden and those like him, that would cut it out quick.
As a former high school ref, these calls would be tough in real time depending on the angle. I generally think the state of officiating is terrible, but what Harden does would be tough unless you have the right angle. The refs just need to quit calling anything but clear fouls with Harden and those like him, that would cut it out quick.
So the Harden.
Lionel Richie
Member
Yeah, the advanced Harden move lol. The locking arms thing and general flopping doesn't get me, but this one is absolutely painful to watch as it mixes flopping with moving screens.
Colonel Nasty
Member
This is an NBA problem, not a Harden one. You can't call these ticky tact touch fouls near the basket and not call them because they're behind the 3pt line. This has been happening around the basket for years with body contact and rip throughs but Harden is doing from the 3 point line.
One of the reasons Harden is such a great offensive player is there's no good solution for the defense to stop him. Under the screen he shoots, over you either get left behind or he hits you with the rip, or switch and he puts weaker defenders in blender. The Moreyball/Dantoni system caused the spacing of the court that gives the Rockets this advantage.
I think the best solution is to call it on the floor and not give him the shots on the rip through. But you can't not call it if you're gonna give those call to players near the basket.
One of the reasons Harden is such a great offensive player is there's no good solution for the defense to stop him. Under the screen he shoots, over you either get left behind or he hits you with the rip, or switch and he puts weaker defenders in blender. The Moreyball/Dantoni system caused the spacing of the court that gives the Rockets this advantage.
I think the best solution is to call it on the floor and not give him the shots on the rip through. But you can't not call it if you're gonna give those call to players near the basket.
Hyperactivity
Banned
That only benefits the 3 point sharp-shooting teams even more. The Rockets have thrived due to the fact that they've been shooting 3s 2, 3, 4 feet out behind the 3 pt line, and can make them.
but that can be easily fixed with actually calling moving screens.
Gotdatmoney
Member
The guys that benefit the most from this arent gonna be harmed by a fine if it gives them an advantage in a crucial moment.
You move the line back youare gonna see Golden State amd Houston even more dominant. Steph, Durant and Klay can shoot the ball way the fuck out from the line. You want the splash triplets to be one of 10 players who can hit 40% from extended range?
What harden does is really hard to see in real time. We have replay and gifs and he does it all the time so we look for it. But that is tough to catch game speed on one take. The refs are better off just swallowing the whistle for the time being though I agree.
Caddywompus
Member
Wasn't there talk at one time of implementing a flopping review panel?
A fine for the offender plus a technical is applied to their total which could quickly add up to a suspension.
The issue is where the panel determines the line at trying to draw a foul and egregious flopping.
A fine for the offender plus a technical is applied to their total which could quickly add up to a suspension.
The issue is where the panel determines the line at trying to draw a foul and egregious flopping.
Stars have been getting away with various tricks in the league throughout the modern history of the NBA. Either change the rules, or how they are enforced. Otherwise I don't fault the players who are capable of taking advantage from taking advantage.
If it's enough of a concern they'll even make a new rule to address it.
Otherwise complaints from fans don't mean much as they'll cheer (or just look the other way from) whatever little tricks their team does in the same breath.
If it's enough of a concern they'll even make a new rule to address it.
Otherwise complaints from fans don't mean much as they'll cheer (or just look the other way from) whatever little tricks their team does in the same breath.
Latvian Hitman
Member
I agree. Not to mention the fact that moving the line back would require widening the court a bit, which is all just going to add up to more space that defenses will have to try and cover.
We already have 4's and 5's showing on screens 26 feet from the basket and then trying to recover to their man, or, even worse, we have them switching and winding up one on one with the James Hardens and Steph Currys of the world. Moving the line back is just going to give offenses even more of an advantage. They're just going to set their illegal moving screens that much higher on the court.
Khalifa Jayy
Banned
Calm down dude.
Think about it from Harden's point of view
in his mind, he's the victim
Lol first time seeing this. What a beautiful dance.
Think about it from Harden's point of view
in his mind, he's the victim
i laugh so hard when i see that.
Its gotta be SOMETHIN! Its gotta be SOMETHIN!
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
GitarooMan
Member
See my opinion on this is they are too loose with the continuation. He is bumped before he starts shooting, it should not be a shooting foul. This feeling contact and then starting to shoot doesn't make sense.So how would you deal with this:
That's why I said they need to add an embelishment call. Should be treated the same as three second violations and the like. Ie. Opponent gets a free throw and the ball.
Except he's not bumped. He does the bumping.
Gotdatmoney
Member
I can just see all the embelishment calls on scrubs now. Would be glorious.
Latvian Hitman
Member
And the defender's being pinned in by a moving screen. There are a lot of things going on in that play, but a defensive foul is not one of them.
So how would you deal with this:
Whats crazy about this is that the ref is RIGHT THERE!!!! He sees it happening! How does he make that call?!
So how would you deal with this:
There is no good way to deal with bad officiating... Other than to take advantage of it.
Terrible officiating but at least they didn't give LA a bullshit flagrant after Harden gave himself whiplash, dude exaggerates to the point of injury
Anyway that 3 definitely wasn't a foul. And just makes me salty that Brent Barry got no love from his own playoffs foul years back lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR4m0ZThDYY
Anyway that 3 definitely wasn't a foul. And just makes me salty that Brent Barry got no love from his own playoffs foul years back lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR4m0ZThDYY
Lionel Richie
Member
So how would you deal with this:
By having less awful refs, it's pretty clear Harden initiates the contact and the ref is right there and the motherfucker still calls it wrong.
DerangedHermit
Member
Ref saw a Patty with his hands up ... "hmm, probably up to no good!"
It's going to be really hard to fix this unless they call a non-shooting foul.
The problem is that players like Curry, KD, and Harden are simply the pinnacle of what the rules channel the game to: a 3 point bonanza.
Part of it is simply the fact that they can bury 3s from just about any point on the court.
The problem is that players like Curry, KD, and Harden are simply the pinnacle of what the rules channel the game to: a 3 point bonanza.
Part of it is simply the fact that they can bury 3s from just about any point on the court.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Kids are gonna grow up watching Harden do this bullshit too. Can you even imagine what the future has in store?
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.slat...coming_to_the_nba_here_s_where_to_put_it.html
Sorry for the long link, but interesting article with shooting charts at all ranges. I do think moving the line back would work for the most part. You can sag off everyone but curry coming off a dribble pick and roll if it's at 26 ft.
But I'm an old bastard that grew up watching and going to games in the 80s and 90s. I miss the back to the basket and mid range games.
Sorry for the long link, but interesting article with shooting charts at all ranges. I do think moving the line back would work for the most part. You can sag off everyone but curry coming off a dribble pick and roll if it's at 26 ft.
But I'm an old bastard that grew up watching and going to games in the 80s and 90s. I miss the back to the basket and mid range games.
Hopefully some of his incredible court vision, unselfish passing, and damn nice all around offensive game??
Guys who think this is all James has been doing are sleeping on him, as usual lol. Watch some freaking FULL games ffs, not just the shite you get fed on espn or a youtube video.
Tragicomedy
Member
Except the OP has statistical numbers that argue it's very much a Harden problem.
Affeinvasion
Member
If that's the case, can you really change the rules of the entire game for a single player? My opinion is no. Teams have to figure out how to play him until it becomes more of a widespread problem.
Most of those plays are fouls on the defensive player. They aren't shooting fouls, but they are fouls. You can see that the defender puts their hand in to Harden's body which is a hand check. The refs don't call the hand check, but they will call the foul if there is contract on the offensive players arm when he's going into his shooting motion. Harden and other players have figured out that as soon as the defender gives them a hand check, they immediately go into their shot, which draws a shooting foul. The contract occurs before the shot. It should be a hand check.
Alpha Centauri
Member
There is a whole website dedicated to players who single-handedly changed rules for everyone. Most notably, Wilt Chamberlain ushered in goaltending and free-throw reforms. Nipping something in the bud before it becomes more widespread is not a bad thing.
The officials are the problem here, not Harden or any other player. Professional athletes have shown time and time again that they'll do whatever it takes to gain an advantage. If the officials call something a foul on a consistent basis, why wouldn't a player try to get that call as often as possible? And in this specific case it's a matter of a hand check being called a 3 point shooting foul.
It's up to officials in all sports to stop giving advantages to players that are exaggerating contact, flopping and acting. I know soccer isn't the sport we're talking about here but I thought this was a good example of why players choose to flop or dive or exaggerate contact as opposed to doing the honorable thing and play it straight.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QWnh05gORyk
The player gets fouled (pushed) and it drastically impacts his ability to shoot. Instead of falling down and exaggerating the contact, he does his best to maintain his balance and get off the shot. This is a foul and the ref should call this a penalty. Instead, he doesn't and the player doing the right thing is punished.
If you are a player and you experience this or see it, it's a reasonable thing for them to say if I'm ever in that situation in the future, I'm going to exaggerate the contact because that gives me the most likely chance of getting the foul called.
It's up to officials in all sports to stop giving advantages to players that are exaggerating contact, flopping and acting. I know soccer isn't the sport we're talking about here but I thought this was a good example of why players choose to flop or dive or exaggerate contact as opposed to doing the honorable thing and play it straight.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QWnh05gORyk
The player gets fouled (pushed) and it drastically impacts his ability to shoot. Instead of falling down and exaggerating the contact, he does his best to maintain his balance and get off the shot. This is a foul and the ref should call this a penalty. Instead, he doesn't and the player doing the right thing is punished.
If you are a player and you experience this or see it, it's a reasonable thing for them to say if I'm ever in that situation in the future, I'm going to exaggerate the contact because that gives me the most likely chance of getting the foul called.
is that a moving screen or whatSo how would you deal with this:
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
That's the crux of most of this.
Moving screens make it virtually impossible to play real straight up defense.
Call the screens and you fix a shit ton of this.
DerangedHermit
Member
I remember everyone crying last year that kids would grow up trying to imitate Steph and how awful that would be for the game. I guess this is much better, right guys?
lastflowers
Banned
yep. Though I'm no bball expert by any means.