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[DemurOnion]

You make video games for televisions, not movies for theater screens, assholes.

fucking poseur industry.

Because film you know, is the amalgamation of poetry, prose, sound, and visuals.... I think fuck it all man. Assholes. Umm....

 

[nded]

Even when practical problems are solved there will still be an artistic choice regarding frame rate, exposure is a key element in photography.

Yep, it's not like movies benefit from high frame rate in the same way interactive video games do. Apart from technical caveats, the choice between lower or higher frame rate in films is mostly subjective and a matter of personal preference.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

They didn't say it was an inconvience, they said they put story first. If you noticed there is gameplay in the Order 1886, but as they said they've created the story first with gameplay around it. Again, there are no rules to any of this, if they wanted to make a game where you walk through foggy london doing nothing but holding forward the analoge stick and watching other people do shit what is the problem with that? Who says these mediums have to be so strict to their foundations?

There aren't many ways to take a dev saying that gameplay "is something we can't get around". It makes it sound like they don't care about it and are only putting it in because, well, it's a game.

 

[Avid Reading Horse]

Were this to release without 24fps and a vinyl 33 1/3 rpm soundtrack for authentic olde timey feel, I would thusly refuse to procure such woeful entertainment from the general store. Do the right thing here Sony or I shall voice my displeasure by means of a sternly worded telegram, posthaste. This threat is bound by my word as a gentleman. Good day.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

Well the question is why not just make a movie when the gameplay is so bothersome?

You can't tell the story of Stanley Parable in a movie, but you can tell the story of a game that tries to be a movie, in a movie

Of course you could, Why wouldn't you be able to?

When people start bringing up Dear Esther to justify a game's design choices, it's a sign that I should stop caring about said game.

I don't even know what your trying to say here.

 

[KCroxtonJr]

You are right, a game at a higher framerate will always look better and always feel better to play.

My purpose is the analogue between film framerates and games is false. They have two different consumption and production styles. A camera has a lens with exposure and the audience is passive, a game has punctual time slices with an active person drving the game.

Stop using the two in comparative posts.

Did they say the game looks or feels better at 30fps? Or did they simply say they were going for a filmic look?

Nobody is comparing the way the two technically work, it is simply a comparison between fps. Films are generally lower fps, The vision for The Order is a filmic look, so they target a lower fps. There is no issue in their statement, you guys are just making it seem like they said things that they did not say.

 

[unholyrevenger72]

eh, it's not a faced paced twitch shooter, i can live 30 fps

 

[erawsd]

I'd say the difference there is that Stanley Parable or Dear Esther don't try to imitate movies.

Both of those are also like an hour long. I like Stanley Parable and I thought it was a very interesting design but wouldn't play it for 6-15hrs.

 

[copelandmaster]

Yes I do

While there is no proof of the limit of the human eye, most normal people cannot tell the difference in FPS. How many people will spot the difference between a 120 Hz and 240 Hz LED TV?

You don't know what you are talking about.

30fps
http://a.pomf.se/ychkrc.webm


60fps
http://a.pomf.se/zrvgrn.webm


120fps.
http://a.pomf.se/tawngi.webm

If you had a 120hz monitor, you'd realize just how much more smooth this one is than the 60fps one. Download and play in WMP or MPC, or view each in a separate tab if your processor/ web browser can't keep up.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

There aren't many ways to take a dev saying that gameplay "is something we can't get around". It makes it sound like they don't care about it and are only putting it in because, well, it's a game.

And what exactly is wrong with that? Who says a game has to be about the gameplay?

 

[RobFox64tm]

I have yet to play a game that was better at a lower framerate.

Do you mean the same game at different framerates, or are you suggesting that all games that run at 60fps are automatically better than any of those at lower framerates? Obviously I'm sure you mean the former, and that's true because those games were probably designed for that higher rate to begin with, thus anything less will always be a compromise. A game like Wind Waker though, was always going to be 30fps, and the end product both looked nice and played well as a result of that planning. In 60fps, the game would lose some of its aesthetic charm, particularly because few animated features (which the style was obviously based) run in more than 24fps, and on TVs that artificially increase that rate, those movies look weird. I suspect Wind Waker would look off as well in that case.

 

[Easy_D]

Funny way to say we can't push 60FPS and the same graphics. It's ok, they would never say that though.

I don't get why though. You can spin that into something sounding positive. Like:

Our engine is actually pushing the system so hard it's impossible to hit a stable framerate over 30 FPS. So we think players are going to be very impressed with the graphical details of the game

Super easy.

 

[Kinyou]

Of course you could, Why wouldn't you be able to?

Because Stanley Parable is all about interactivity, choice and the game reacting to it. You can't put that in a movie.

 

[sflufan]

What's wrong with imitating movies?

Because games have their own "language" that's appropriate to the medium while movies speak a different "language."

This is my big argument with David Cage: he has yet to get that through his skull which is why his games fall down in BOTH aspects (narrative/characterization and gameplay).

 

[mrklaw]

Yikes, they considered 24 fps?

It doesn't sync up with a 60 Hz display and would have produced constant judder.

I'm not sure they actually considered it.

However, if they kicked in a 1080p/24 mode, wouldn't a decent TV display that properly these days?

 

[TheRedSnifit]

And what exactly is wrong with that? Who says a game has to be about the gameplay?

Nobody, I guess. If you're fine with paying $60 to watch a game, then good for you.

 

[LCGeek]

1. You don't know the solidity of the framerate in this game, so you are making a point that has no use being made.
2. They are working hard on lens simulations that will take into account how film captures light. It most likely won't be perfect, but that is something they're actively doing.

In regards to the "funniest bit", nowhere does it say they tried 24fps.

1. Considering who it's coming from them and their history it's perfectly fine considering they are the one making us question such solidity. Also as another user mentioned what we have seen wasn't stable. No I'm not waiting till post launch to comment on a situation a dev is for themselves. They cannot confirm that it will be 60fps or 60fps unlocked so I can make this point all day and will.

2. So what if they are working on it, are there any games now that will do so nope. Don't get why your counter with something that will happen when I'm talking in the present.

the funniest bit had various points like the hypocrisy of their own feel statement regarding 30fps vs 24.

 

[dark10x]

I'm not sure they actually considered it.

However, if they kicked in a 1080p/24 mode, wouldn't a decent TV display that properly these days?

I dunno, most 24p implementations I've seen have been...questionable. They're an improvement but still not optimal.

 

[Kssio_Aug]

Nobody, I guess. If you're fine with paying $60 to watch a game, then good for you.

But who said we will have no gameplay on The Order? Actually they already showed it, and looks pretty good.

 

[RobFox64tm]

I'm not sure they actually considered it.

However, if they kicked in a 1080p/24 mode, wouldn't a decent TV display that properly these days?

If you have a monitor that can display that correctly, yes. I'd actually be curious to see someone do this. Of course when you're watching a movie it's not as much of an issue as if you needed constant control over the material, so it might be too inhibiting to play ability to do this in the first place. I don't know.

 

[TheSlySoul]

I'm not sure they actually considered it.

However, if they kicked in a 1080p/24 mode, wouldn't a decent TV display that properly these days?

It would be crisp, but blurry with quick movements. The 6 FPS makes a big difference in smoothness, so 30 FPS. The developers are saying that the game was designed around 30 FPS and it would look odd doubling it. People are going nuts because they are not doing 60 FPS. This is the one case in which "gamer entitlement" is valid.

Edit: I think the 24 FPS thing is just saying they are going for a cinematic feel and movies are in that resolution. I do not think it is anything else.

 

[gai_shain]

30fps is fine but can we atleast not bullshit and say "its not 60fps because the hardware can't handle that visual fidelity at that framerate."

I dont want to start anything, but it is likely that because they are targerting 30fps the game is build with 30fps in Mind and likely wouldnt run at 60 with those specific settings that have been made for 30

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

Because Stanley Parable is all about interactivity, choice and the game reacting to it. You can't put that in a movie.

Yes you can, bit of a shit example, but I remember playing a SHREK 3-D extra movie on a dvd, where you could hit buttons on the remote of the dvd player to pick your path. It was terrible and basic, and it's a very ancedotal example, but it can be done. Or a better example, some videos on YouTube will bring up a deciding "point" on the video, in which multiple annotations pop up to other videos, you can then choose which annotation to click, or simply keep watching.

Because games have their own "language" that's appropriate to the medium while movies speak a different "language."

This is my big argument with David Cage: he has yet to get that through his skull which is why his games fall down in BOTH aspects (narrative/characterization and gameplay).

Some may think Cage did a great job, and my point is that movies and games don't have to stick to their own "languages".

 

[InsaneTiger]

Devs reserve the right to choose how they build their game. As long as it is fun I won't mind.

 

[Raticus79]

24 fps is just a little too cinematic.

They went from 60 to 30 to improve visual quality. They shied away from 24 because it felt too much worse to play.

I think they're saying 60 would have been great if they could have maintained the quality.

 

[enzo_gt]

Sounds like a good compromise. The game seems to be about a similar compromise as a whole between story/gameplay. Plus, obviously, the game doesn't need 60 FPS.

 

[TheCloser]

Devs reserve the right to choose how they build their game. As long as it is fun I won't mind.

This, thank god the mass market doesn't think like some posters here on gaf. This industry would become even more restrictive than it already is.

 

[RetroStu]

And what exactly is wrong with that? Who says a game has to be about the gameplay?

What the hell?

 

[rjinaz]

You don't know what you are talking about.

30fps
http://a.pomf.se/ychkrc.webm


60fps
http://a.pomf.se/zrvgrn.webm

The 60 looks so much better than the 30 to my eyes. So smooth.

Anyway, I think that it's important and I would definitely prefer it, but I'm not sure just how important it is to even me, let alone most people that are used to 30fps games and 24fps movies. I guess my take on it is, I hope developers try to go for 60fps if they can, but if it's not going to work for the game, then I'm fine with 30fps

 

[KCroxtonJr]

Because games have their own "language" that's appropriate to the medium while movies speak a different "language."

This is my big argument with David Cage: he has yet to get that through his skull which is why his games fall down in BOTH aspects (narrative/characterization and gameplay).

This makes absolutely no sense at all.

If games imitating movies is not appropriate to the medium, then games trying to imitate "reality" with VR is not appropriate as well and VR should not be pursued.

 

[Cave Johnson]

Don't think there is anything inherently wrong with what he is saying. Who says a game has to be about gameplay? Look at Stanley Parable and Dear Esther, what is the gameplay there? For the most part none, but they tell cool stories, so what's wrong with the Order doing that?

Because it tries to juxtapose "gameplay" experience into their core philosophy. Dear Esther and Stanley Parable ran with a specific theme and stuck with it. TO1886 is trying to take David Cage's concept and fill in the blanks with bog-standard TPS mechanics and moment to moment sequences as checkmarks on the proverbial list of things of criticisms labeled at David Cage and his "moviesque" design. It's an amalgamation of already established concepts built under the layer of the "story" they are trying to push so hard in their reveal.

 

[kinggroin]

This Dev knows what's up.

All 60fps would do is take away from the quality of the cutscenes. They should have went for 24fps, but I can live with 30 this time

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

Nobody, I guess. If you're fine with paying $60 to watch a game, then good for you.

1) When was it ever in the equation that one has to pay $60 for this game?
2) When has anybody ever actually watched a video game? When I bring up examples like Dear Esther and Stanley Parable, it's not like you just sit back and the game moves for you, the game still involves interactivity. All I'm saying is, ya'll are so quick to bash RAD for putting story OVER gameplay. They are not replacing one with the other. They are not removing gameplay, but gameplay might not be the focus. That's fine.

 

[Oersted]

1. You don't know the solidity of the framerate in this game, so you are making a point that has no use being made.
2. They are working hard on lens simulations that will take into account how film captures light. It most likely won't be perfect, but that is something they're actively doing.

In regards to the "funniest bit", nowhere does it say they tried 24fps.



You're fixated on "better" or "worse", when the key word is "different". About videogames being digital, what framerate do most CG movies run at, and why is that?

I'm a advocate of 60 fps for videogames and movies. Always have been. Because it is better. Especially for videogames with action-focus. This is one. And please stop with the 24 or 48 fps crap. It doesn't have to be anymore.

What do you mean with CG movies? Animated movies are mostly shot in 24 fps because it is cheaper, GCI in higher framerates because the computer needs as many information as possible.

 

[Seanspeed]

To start with there are games who brake if you run at higher frame rates. Disregarding that, if you ever played on PC you know there is a direct correlation between the complexity of what is being rendered and frame rates, depending on the game choosing to run it at 30fps so you don't need to sacrifice certain things is a completely valid choice.

The only games that 'break' at higher framerates are ones who were designed to be run at a given framerate. This has nothing to do with 60fps vs 30fps. though. It is not a weakness of 60fps.

And I never said 30fps isn't a 'valid choice'. Its a subjective decision on whether you want fidelity or framerate. But you know what? The same argument goes for 20fps vs 30fps. Developers could make their games look even better if the game ran at 20fps. But do you want that? No. You'll say that's its because 30fps is the most 'balanced' option, but its only because its what we're used to. We could well have been used to playing games at 20fps and people would be 'fine with it'. 30fps would feel better, but you'd lose some fidelity.

As a PC player, its not always such a compromise, though. I often have the power to have both fidelity and framerate. But in the event that I don't have the framerate, the fidelity will always get compromised first. I understand console gamers don't have this luxury and I think it would be lousy to go back to a world where developers got to decide what compromises get made for me. I mean, granted, I understand, from experience as a console gamer most my life, that you tend to just ignore this aspect and get on with it, but then again, it also meant I was never interested in the technical discussions about it, either. I didn't know there was an option and I just went along with what I was given. But options are nice. I've found out in the past year I'm very much a 'framerate first' kind of guy. And I think there are many console gamers that would probably feel this way as well, but haven't been given the freedom to figure this out yet.

ANYWAYS, no denying that The Order is going to look spectacular as a result. They'll likely be able to validate their decision based on all the hype over the visuals. So you're right in that its a 'valid' choice. Doesn't mean its what's best for everyone, though. Its just what's best for them, as a company who needs to sell copies.

 

[TitusGroan]

So is 30fps now 'the feel of 24fps' as opposed to 'the feel of 60fps'? That's pretty damn variable for what should be a non-variable framerate.

Being less facetious though... when a game runs at 60fps, it doesn't look like a film. It looks like a game. What exactly is it about the game's story that the developers feel it needs to look more like a completely different medium than the one it's in? To me, saying "they want it to look more like a film' isn't a real answer. Why do they want it to look more like a film? What is it that inherently makes the game's story or setting better looking like a film than a high framerate game?

 

[mcz117chief]

30fps
http://a.pomf.se/ychkrc.webm


60fps
http://a.pomf.se/zrvgrn.webm

Oh, the 60fps looks so, weird, alien even. I definitely prefer the 30fps one by a mile.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

In this case, I actually believe that 30fps is more conducive to the game's aesthetic. They're clearly going for a cinematic look, and even though it's a negative for gameplay, 30fps does help achieve that.

 

[Saint Gregory]

As long as every dev that makes this decision locks the game at 30fps and not caps it at 30fps I'll be OK.

Variable framerates are going to drive me insane one day.

 

[njean777]

Smells like a bunch of pr bullshit to me. Make it 60 please.

 

[inner-G]

I'd love it if devs would, for once, stop pretending that going to 30fps instead of 60 is some sort of "artistic choice".

It's bullshit. They know it, we know it, why pretend otherwise?

Deciding whether you want higher quality visuals or not is inherently an artistic choice...

 

[RetroStu]

Oh, the 60fps looks so, weird, alien even. I definitely prefer the 30fps one by a mile.

Oh boy, i can't tell who's joking or not anymore in this thread.

 

[LCGeek]

Oh, the 60fps looks so, weird, alien even. I definitely prefer the 30fps one by a mile.

Weird, alien, please do explain.

I would shudder at how most 30fps or 30hz advocates would respond if they realize the light spectrum based on what we know runs in the high trillions in terms of speed.

 

[blankempathy]

The excuses are already rolling out.

 

[JayEH]

Do you think 60fps looks just as similar to movies?

60 fps is always better for games objectively. The excuse that 30 fps is more cinematic is some BS that devs make up when their games run at 30. It's fine that the game runs at 30, I'm ok with that but don't give me this BS that it's running at that because of the cinematic feel.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

Because it tries to juxtapose "gameplay" experience into their core philosophy. Dear Esther and Stanley Parable ran with a specific theme and stuck with it. TO1886 is trying to take David Cage's concept and fill in the blanks with bog-standard TPS mechanics and moment to moment sequences as checkmarks on the proverbial list of things of criticisms labeled at David Cage and his "moviesque" design. It's an amalgamation of already established concepts built under the layer of the "story" they are trying to push so hard in their reveal.

And what about the Order's theme prevents it from doing just so? I don't get it, the Order is, for the most part, totally identical (based on what we've seen) to all the linear-3rd person action games that we've seen heavily of over the past generation. Would you lobby the same complaints at them?

 

[Draft]

30fps vs. 60fps isn't something you see, it's something you feel.

Seriously, the important stuff is how it affects the interaction of the controller and the game. These are games. Interactive media.

 

[dugdug]

We spent the majority of last generation in 30 FPS. Hell, last year's GOTY on GAF (and basically everywhere else) was The Last of Us: a 30 FPS game. Most of us played the Souls game in 30 FPS. Journey, Gears, Fallout, Mirror's Edge, Uncharted, Forza Horizon, GTA IV and V, RDR, etc...you get my point: the list is endless. Yes, some games were ported to PC and eventually became 60 FPS, but, it's not like the games were terrible until then.

Yet, now, if it isn't 60 from the start, it's a travesty. The devs are *obviously* incompetent, and incapable of getting their game to run. It's all just PR. There's no possible way in fuck that it could actually be a stylistic choice.

 

[mcz117chief]

Weird, alien, please do explain.

I would shudder at how most 30fps or 30hz advocates would respond if they realize the light spectrum based on what we know runs in the high trillions in terms of speed.

It just looks unnatural to me, too smooth, too fast

Oh boy, i can't tell who's joking or not anymore in this thread.

How can you perceive personal preference as a joke ?

 

[ArkkAngel007]

Because it tries to juxtapose "gameplay" experience into their core philosophy. Dear Esther and Stanley Parable ran with a specific theme and stuck with it. TO1886 is trying to take David Cage's concept and fill in the blanks with bog-standard TPS mechanics and moment to moment sequences as checkmarks on the proverbial list of things of criticisms labeled at David Cage and his "moviesque" design. It's an amalgamation of already established concepts built under the layer of the "story" they are trying to push so hard in their reveal.

What about THO1886 is akin to a David Cage game? A single QTE and cutscenes so far shown for the game?

I get that you aren't a fan of TPS games, from what I'm gathering from your comment, but that doesn't make it a bad game. It's only if that TPS gameplay is poor or makes for a rather 'objectively' bland game (in comparison to TPS gameplay that is) that it's an issue.

I like gameplay first games too, but there's nothing wrong if they can pull it off. Don't see this juxtaposition issue that you're throwing up.

As for 30 fps vs 60 fps, they just just come out and say that they wanted to push as much visually and the only way to achieve what they wanted was through 30 fps. Which is ok so long as the framerate is solid 30 fps, and not merely capped and variable.