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[vaibhavpisal]

This thread seems like Sony brigade talking to themselves.

Nobody is attacking it. Just chill.

 

[nordique]

Didn’t click on the article (don’t want to give him hits) so thanks OP for the summary

All I can say is PS5 is one of the best consoles I’ve ever owned. Love mine. Love how quiet it is. Love the controller. Love the games.

Just finished ratchet and clank rift apart and I was blown away

Comparing Tools of destruction vs Enter the Nexus on PS3 (early vs late lifecycle) has me very excited for the PS5’s future as well

 

[Hobbygaming]

Didn’t click on the article (don’t want to give him hits) so thanks OP for the summary

All I can say is PS5 is one of the best consoles I’ve ever owned. Love mine. Love how quiet it is. Love the controller. Love the games.

Just finished ratchet and clank rift apart and I was blown away

Comparing Tools of destruction vs Enter the Nexus on PS3 (early vs late lifecycle) has me very excited for the PS5’s future as well

Same. Aligning other console launches I'd put PS5 over them all except maybe the PS2 which I didn't own at the time but I've seen the launch lineup

 

[Kamina]

It is not illegal to hack a console at all, it is illegal to reproduce and distribute IP protected system software, which is why emulation development is tricky and beautiful: you have to reproduce the functionality of the code for different platform in a way that can play games but without copying or using any of the original source code since it's protected.

Yes that’s what I meant; you explained it better.

 

[Derktron]

Certainly you can see the differences between the opinions you've expressed here and "nobody around me is interested in getting one" though.



Right....cuz no one would pay any attention to an article saying "Xbox Series X sucks"? Are you being serious?

Who said anything about Xbox and yes people would be praising it. Remember Neogaf is not the only place where the toxicity lives on. Maybe come out of the cave and explore the dangerous world of the gaming community where people will still be biased towards Xbox, PC, and Nintendo. Thank you test subject, you are now part of my data study on biases and fanboyism within the gaming community. So it's amazing how there are 7 pages so far just because someone did a very naughty thing and has an opinion/fact on PlayStation.

 

[eastcoastkody]

u want another reason it sucks. It doesn't switch network settings automatically like Xbox. If ur on Wi-Fi and plug ethernet into it...it doesn't manually switch over to wired. U have to change it in the settings.

Xbox detects and immediately connects u to the best possible connection.

I knew PS5 was gonna suck about 1 minute after unboxing it. And it was a ginormous monstrosity, with a too short HDMI cable that i immediately needed to find a screwdriver just to stand the console.

Oh and when i put it horizontal for a day and ppl had to tell me it was wrong after i posted a pic.

 

[Topher]

Who said anything about Xbox

Seriously? You did.

I wonder how the difference would be if it was the other way around for Xbox and Nintendo and hell even PC. The bias is real still.

and yes people would be praising it.

Some would praise it. Some would trash it. Plenty of others would pick apart the opinion and highlight what they agree/disagree about what was said or what is blatantly wrong. You know.....kind of like what is happening here. But if you think the discussion would be nothing but praise then you are deluding yourself.

So it's amazing how there are 7 pages so far just because someone did a very naughty thing and has an opinion/fact on PlayStation.

That's hilarious. Someone writes an opinion piece slamming PlayStation and praising Xbox and somehow you find it "amazing" that there are those who did a very "naughty thing" and provided "opinions/facts" of their own? lol....ok, cowboy

And yeah, I snipped out your ironically toxic rant.

 

[Danknugz]

Lots of Napoleon complex in here

 

[rnlval]

They can be bought and downloaded from PSN. This has nothing to do with PS Now streaming.

Also, emulation is illegal. Not a valid argument.

"How much does the XBSX cost?" "Its free if you steal it."
"How much does the PS5 cost?" "Its free if you steal it."
"How much does Game Pass cost?" "Its free if you steal it."

This is your brilliant logic. Yes, once we add crime into the discussion many aspects of the comparison change.

California's "Proposition 47" says Hi.

 

[Notabueno]

This is interesting the things you list here as more 1st party PS5 titles have real time raytracing so far, 3D audio is incredible is and is coming to TVs in a update and so is vrr (shoutout to Riky)

I'm not impressed by raytracing I have it on PC on way more games (except Ratchet, it's really well used), also what 1st party PS5 game besides Returnal and Ratchet? It's a rhetorical question, I don't waste time with people in straight denial, I hate that.

 

[Rambotito]

Found the Blogger's pic.

 

[Genx3]

How many PS3 games are playable on the PS5 (without streaming)?

0

 

[PandemiaPorcina]

I agree with Sony not supporting Dv

 

[Excess]

Just watched a video from Veratasium on click-bait.

Relevant.

Proof: 7 pages.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

I'm not sure I understand why the other thread was locked/deleted and this one allowed? This title even appears to have inherent bias so that makes it ok?

No wonder there's an echo chamber in such threads.

I think there are some great games on PS5. I think there are shortcomings in the software and services. Both of those statements can be true. Sony haven't made anything that makes me want to put down AUD$1K for a PS5 and games and accessories, that may change in future.

 

[Spitfire098]

I knew PS5 was gonna suck about 1 minute after unboxing it. And it was a ginormous monstrosity, with a too short HDMI cable that i immediately needed to find a screwdriver just to stand the console.

Spoiler

 

[Hinedorf]

A console with zero good games is what you call a console that sucks.

Not trolling IMO the PS5 is absolutely worthless to me right now. Until I see a HZD2 or God of War2 or something that resembles a video game Sony would be proud of I'll stick to playing highly successful Switch and PC games or the STILL AMAZING PS4

I would call myself a Sony fanboy, up until the point they created a console in which their games are shit, enter PS5. Time will tell.

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

Because we are all sheep or something.

Clearly 9.8m of those sales are scalpers!

 

[coffinbirth]

They can be bought and downloaded from PSN. This has nothing to do with PS Now streaming.

Also, emulation is illegal. Not a valid argument.

"How much does the XBSX cost?" "Its free if you steal it."
"How much does the PS5 cost?" "Its free if you steal it."
"How much does Game Pass cost?" "Its free if you steal it."

This is your brilliant logic. Yes, once we add crime into the discussion many aspects of the comparison change.

Incredibly stupid comment, wow.
Emulation isn't illegal, but clearly a rational conversation about these things is lost on you....so whatever.

 

[SpongebobSquaredance]

Also, emulation is illegal. Not a valid argument.

 

[kyliethicc]

Incredibly stupid comment, wow.
Emulation isn't illegal, but clearly a rational conversation about these things is lost on you....so whatever.

Incredibly stupid comment, wow.
Emulation is illegal, but clearly a rational conversation about these things is lost on you....so whatever.

 

[SpongebobSquaredance]

Emulation is illegal, but clearly a rational conversation about these things is lost on you....so whatever.

Well, you obviously don't know what you are talking about so having a rational conversation with you is about as useful as watching grass grow.

 

[Zathalus]

Incredibly stupid comment, wow.
Emulation is illegal, but clearly a rational conversation about these things is lost on you....so whatever.

Actually, emulation is legal. As long as you own the original software. So if you have a bunch of old PS1 games lying about, emulating them on the Xbox is totally fine. Or you can just buy some from your local second hand store or ebay.

Now I'm pretty sure a ton of people who emulate do so via piracy of the original software, and that is illegal.

 

[SpongebobSquaredance]

To be honest, I recommend watching Nerrel's videos on the subject of emulation. They show why emulation is necessary and why even the illegal act of rom sharing through the web is something that has importance as a means of preserving the games. We should be thankful that there are countries where the copyright law isn't as harsh, because there is hardly an official alternative out there that could compensate this. Xbox does a great job for BC, but there probably never will be a 100% BC because older games are hindered by licenses and it isn't even only about sports teams, music and names etc. There are many games were the license holder is unknown or they are shared between multiple companies making a rerelease unlikely to near impossible.

There should be an official way of buying roms, dumping roms yourself should be 100% legal and not just "grey", and after a certain time games should be "free use" (especially old titles were the license holder is unknown), similar like it is with movies and classical music.

Anyway...

 

[kyliethicc]

Well, you obviously don't know what you are talking about so having a rational conversation with you is about as useful as watching grass grow.

Actually, emulation is legal. As long as you own the original software. So if you have a bunch of old PS1 games lying about, emulating them on the Xbox is totally fine. Or you can just buy some from your local second hand store or ebay.

Now I'm pretty sure a ton of people who emulate do so via piracy of the original software, and that is illegal.

"GRANT OF LICENSE. The Software is licensed to you, not sold. SIE LLC grants to you a limited, non-exclusive license to use the Software for personal use on your PlayStation system."

 

[Zathalus]

"GRANT OF LICENSE. The Software is licensed to you, not sold. SIE LLC grants to you a limited, non-exclusive license to use the Software for personal use on your PlayStation system."

The law is pretty clear on this.

Use of a Game Over: Emulation and the Video Game Industry, A White Paper

By James Conley, Ed Andros, Priti Chinai, et al., Published on 01/01/04

scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu

Sony Computer Entertainment America v. Bleem, 214 F. 3d 1022 - Court of Appeals, 9th Circuit 2000 - Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

In both Sony v. Connectix and Sony v. Bleem LLC,
the Ninth Circuit Court ruled in favor of the emulators arguing that the fair use provision
protected Connectix’s reverse engineering of the PlayStation BIOS and Bleem!’s use of
copyrighted images from PlayStation games

Emulation is legal, illegal ROMs or BIOS are not.

 

[kyliethicc]

The law is pretty clear on this.

Use of a Game Over: Emulation and the Video Game Industry, A White Paper

By James Conley, Ed Andros, Priti Chinai, et al., Published on 01/01/04

scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu

Sony Computer Entertainment America v. Bleem, 214 F. 3d 1022 - Court of Appeals, 9th Circuit 2000 - Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

Emulation is legal, illegal ROMs or BIOS are not.

So how does one play a PS1 game from a CD on an Xbox Series S/X (that can't read CDs) without using an illegal ROM?

 

[Zathalus]

So how does one play a PS1 game from a CD on an Xbox Series S/X (that can't read CDs) without using an illegal ROM?

You make a backup of the ROM yourself.

 

[kyliethicc]

You make a backup of the ROM yourself.

So you rip the game off the CD? That's probably illegal. "Unauthorized copying" etc

 

[Topher]

So you rip the game off the CD? That's probably illegal. "Unauthorized copying" etc

That is going to vary from country to country but yes, in the US, that is technically illegal. No one is really going to care, however, unless you start trying to distribute copies.

 

[Zathalus]

So you rip the game off the CD? That's probably illegal. "Unauthorized copying" etc

Not in the US

Chapter 1 - Circular 92 | U.S. Copyright Office

Subject Matter and Scope of Copyright

www.copyright.gov

(a) Making of Additional Copy or Adaptation by Owner of Copy.— Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided:

(1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner, or

(2) that such new copy or adaptation is for archival purposes only and that all archival copies are destroyed in the event that continued possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful.

 

[MasterCornholio]

That is going to vary from country to country but yes, in the US, that is technically illegal. No one is really going to care, however, unless you start trying to distribute copies.

Like what happened with Emuparadise?

 

[kyliethicc]

Not in the US

Chapter 1 - Circular 92 | U.S. Copyright Office

Subject Matter and Scope of Copyright

www.copyright.gov

a console game isn't a computer program

That is going to vary from country to country but yes, in the US, that is technically illegal. No one is really going to care, however, unless you start trying to distribute copies.

Exactly it is illegal copying in the US. But yes I agree its not like the FBI would come get you lol.

 

[Topher]

Not in the US

Chapter 1 - Circular 92 | U.S. Copyright Office

Subject Matter and Scope of Copyright

www.copyright.gov

But it is not legal to hack DRM in the US due to DMCA.

 

[Zathalus]

a console game isn't a computer program

What? Yes it is. By definition. What else could it possibly be?

But it is not legal to hack DRM in the US due to DMCA.

You don't need to hack any DRM to make a backup of a PS1 disc.

 

[Topher]

You don't need to hack any DRM to make a backup of a PS1 disc.

PS1 discs do have copyright protection though.

https://wololo.net/2012/12/10/how-ps1-security-works/

Bypassing that protection is against the law in the US.

 

[SpongebobSquaredance]

The original point by kyliethicc was that emulation in itself is illegal, and that is simply not the case. If that would the case, all the emulators would be illegal for distribution. They are not. Emulators are legal. Always have been.

Now dumping your games isn't 100% legal, but it's also not 100% illegal. It's grey, as there is no clarity. The law is full of loopholes and to add to the confusion it differs from country to country.

You are allowed to make back up copies:

17 U.S. Code § 117 - Limitations on exclusive rights: Computer programs

www.law.cornell.edu

On the other hand there is copyright

17 U.S. Code § 106 - Exclusive rights in copyrighted works

www.law.cornell.edu

There used to be a law allowing to bypass copyright protection under certain situations:

3. Computer programs protected by dongles that prevent access due to malfunction or damage and which are obsolete. A dongle shall be considered obsolete if it is no longer manufactured or if a replacement or repair is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace.

U.S. Copyright Office - Anticircumvention Rulemaking

Rulemaking on exemptions to prohibition against circumvention of technological measures controlling access to copyrighted works

www.copyright.gov

...but it is no longer in use.

There is also fair use though:

Sec 107 - Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair Use

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.

In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include -

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

17 U.S. Code § 107 - Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

www.law.cornell.edu

I will also add this instance:

Any individual may reproduce a copyrighted work for a "fair use"; the copyright owner does not possess the exclusive right to such a use

Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc., 464 U.S. 417 (1984)

Sony Corp. v. Universal City Studios: If a device is sold for a legitimate purpose and has a substantial non-infringing use, its manufacturer will not be liable under copyright law for potential infringement by its users.

supreme.justia.com

It's definitely not as black and white as you may think and that outright sucks.

There is also an ethical question behind all of this, but to put it mildly, anyone who thinks an individual shouldn't be allowed to make game dumps for personal use is wack as hell and is ultimately shilling.

 

[Topher]

The original point by kyliethicc was that emulation in itself is illegal, and that is simply not the case. If that would the case, all the emulators would be illegal for distribution. They are not. Emulators are legal. Always have been.

Now dumping your games isn't 100% legal, but it's also not 100% illegal. It's grey, as there is no clarity. The law is full of loopholes and to add to the confusion it differs from country to country.

You are allowed to make back up copies:

17 U.S. Code § 117 - Limitations on exclusive rights: Computer programs

www.law.cornell.edu

On the other hand there is copyright

17 U.S. Code § 106 - Exclusive rights in copyrighted works

www.law.cornell.edu

There used to be a law allowing to bypass copyright protection under certain situations:

U.S. Copyright Office - Anticircumvention Rulemaking

Rulemaking on exemptions to prohibition against circumvention of technological measures controlling access to copyrighted works

www.copyright.gov

...but it is no longer in use.

There is also fair use though:

17 U.S. Code § 107 - Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

www.law.cornell.edu

I will also add this instance:

Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc., 464 U.S. 417 (1984)

Sony Corp. v. Universal City Studios: If a device is sold for a legitimate purpose and has a substantial non-infringing use, its manufacturer will not be liable under copyright law for potential infringement by its users.

supreme.justia.com

It's definitely not as black and white as you may think and that outright sucks.

There is also an ethical question behind all of this, but to put it mildly, anyone who thinks an individual shouldn't be allowed to make game dumps for personal use is wack as hell and is ultimately shilling.

The prohibition on bypassing copyright protection is pretty clear though.


(A)
No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.

17 U.S. Code § 1201 - Circumvention of copyright protection systems

www.law.cornell.edu

I've broken this law a number of times ripping my own PS games to ISO so I can play them on PC via emulator. So I absolutely do not agree with it, but that is the law.

 

[SpongebobSquaredance]

The prohibition on bypassing copyright protection is pretty clear though.


(A)
No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.

17 U.S. Code § 1201 - Circumvention of copyright protection systems

www.law.cornell.edu

I've broken this law a number of times ripping my own PS games to ISO so I can play them on PC via emulator. So I absolutely do not agree with it, but that is the law.

That is why I've included laws on fair use and the Sony vs. Universal court case.

 

[Topher]

That is why I've included laws on fair use and the Sony vs. Universal court case.

But fair use is only going to apply to works that do not have tech measures in place to control access. The Sony vs. Universal case was regarding VCRs which have no such controls. Fair use doesn't apply to games with these controls.

 

[SpongebobSquaredance]

But fair use is only going to apply to works that do not have tech measures in place to control access.

It says that it is allowed to bypass copyright protection though.

 

[Topher]

It says that it is allowed to bypass copyright protection though.

Where does it say that?

 

[Demon2blades]

Threads turned into an episode of suits

 

[Topher]

Threads turned into an episode of suits

And yet the quality of the discussion is MUCH improved.

 

[Blond]

People who weren't subscribed to PS+ on that given month no longer can get those for "free"

When we talk PS Plus collection, we are talking about the 20 games that are avaliable to anyone now.

PlayStation Plus Collection game list: Every title for PS Plus subscribers on PS5

Everything you need to know about the games included with the PS Plus Collection

www.gamesradar.com

Looking at that list it seems like they took games off. It was around 50 at the start of the gen wasn't it?

50? It was always twenty. It was maybe 16 or so when it was announced and they added stuff like Persona and Days Gone close to launch bringing it up to 20 so I have no idea where you pulled 50 out of your ass from.

 

[Kerlurk]

nvm

 

[SpongebobSquaredance]

Where does it say that?

Fair use is a legal doctrine that promotes freedom of expression by permitting the unlicensed use of copyright-protected works in certain circumstances without permission from the author or owner.

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.

From the Sony vs. Universal case:

Any individual may reproduce a copyrighted work for a "fair use;" the copyright owner does not possess the exclusive right to such a use.

[The fair use doctrine] identifies various factors that enable a Court to apply an "equitable rule of reason" analysis to particular claims of infringement. Although not conclusive, the first factor requires that "the commercial or nonprofit character of an activity" be weighed in any fair use decision. If the Betamax were used to make copies for a commercial or profit-making purpose, such use would presumptively be unfair. The contrary presumption is appropriate here, however, because the District Court's findings plainly establish that time-shifting for private home use must be characterized as a noncommercial, nonprofit activity.

Moreover, when one considers the nature of a televised copyrighted audiovisual work, see 17 USC s 107(2), and that timeshifting merely enables a viewer to see such a work which he had been invited to witness in its entirety free of charge, the fact that the entire work is reproduced, see id., at s 107(3), does not have its ordinary effect of militating against a finding of fair use.

Thus, although every commercial use of copyrighted material is presumptively an unfair exploitation of the monopoly privilege that belongs to the owner of the copyright, noncommercial uses are a different matter. A challenge to a noncommercial use of a copyrighted work requires proof either that the particular use is harmful, or that if it should become widespread, it would adversely affect the potential market for the copyrighted work. Actual present harm need not be shown; such a requirement would leave the copyright holder with no defense against predictable damage. Nor is it necessary to show with certainty that future harm will result. What is necessary is a showing by a preponderance of the evidence that some meaningful likelihood of future harm exists. If the intended use is for commercial gain, that likelihood may be presumed. But if it is for a noncommercial purpose, the likelihood must be demonstrated.

For example, it is perfectly legal to dump your music to a CD, either as an archival copy or to change medium (from CD to tape). It falls under fair use.
Dumping a game is pretty much the same. It's illegal to bypass DRM when jailbreaking hardware, but that doesn't necessarily apply to software. For personal use, removing DRM is legal to my knowledge as long as you own an original copy.

A federal appeals court has just ruled that breaking through a digital security system to access software doesn't trigger the "anti-circumvention" provisions of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Any other interpretation of the DMCA, declared the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit, would permit infringement liability for tapping into a work simply to "view it or to use it within the purview of 'fair use' permitted under the Copyright Act."

Court: breaking DRM for a “fair use” is legal

In another victory for fair use, a federal court says that simply bypassing …

arstechnica.com

I would say that if the very very very small possibility occurs, that you go to court for making dumps of your games you would have a very strong case.
If it would be strictly illegal we would see much more chaos. Thats why I say its grey and not 100% defined.

 

[Topher]

From the Sony vs. Universal case:






For example, it is perfectly legal to dump your music to a CD, either as an archival copy or to change medium (from CD to tape). It falls under fair use.
Dumping a game is pretty much the same. It's illegal to bypass DRM when jailbreaking hardware, but that doesn't necessarily apply to software. For personal use, removing DRM is legal to my knowledge as long as you own an original copy.

Court: breaking DRM for a “fair use” is legal

In another victory for fair use, a federal court says that simply bypassing …

arstechnica.com

I would say that if the very very very small possibility occurs, that you go to court for making dumps of your games you would have a very strong case.
If it would be strictly illegal we would see much more chaos. Thats why I say its grey and not 100% defined.

Ok....there needs to be a distinction as I misunderstood what you were saying. "Copyright protection" is protection provided by law. Fair use makes allowances for thing such as copying these works. Books, video tapes, CDs, etc.

I'm talking about technical controls such as DRM. It is illegal to bypass that tech and fair use does not allow you to do so. A CD has no controls. Dumping a game is not the same at all if it has DRM or security protections designed to prevent copying. If these technical controls are in place then fair use does not apply.

It is stupid though and I think if challenged in courts the law could be thrown out. I don't know that has ever been tried though. Either way, you are right that the chances are slim to none that anyone would ever face criminal prosecution for simply making copies of their own games for their own personal usage.

 

[coffinbirth]

Incredibly stupid comment, wow.
Emulation is illegal, but clearly a rational conversation about these things is lost on you....so whatever.

GOOGLE.
EXISTS.
USE.
IT.
How many posts of pure ignorance can you possibly post in one thread?

 

[azertydu91]

GOOGLE.
EXISTS.
USE.
IT.
How many posts of pure ignorance can you possibly post in one thread?

Well it depends on the countries laws I know where I live emulators are legal but roms aren't. So you can rip your own games but not download roms hencewhy emulators aren't illegal.