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The Wii U Speculation Thread VI: The Undiscovered Country

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you guys know it would be better if devs did make two versions of their games right?

one version uses the uPad with alternate views of the action or other neat features
being forced away from a straight port could prove beneficial for us gamers

building WiiU games from the ground up is not a bad thing guys
 
As I said earlier, Crytek has recently had good words for WiiU and there were some tweets teasing something to be shown at E3.

I put even less faith in Crytek playing nice with Nintendo for some reason
Can WiiU even handle some of those features? We are still talking about a console and not a beefy one at that
 

darthdago

Member
Has this Interview about HAVOK on Wii U been posted?
If yes, then I'm sorry!!

Link: http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/interview/29477

Quote:

GDC 2012: Dave Gargan Talks Havok on Wii U

by Aaron Kaluszka and Nate Andrews - May 28, 2012 - 4:14 P.M.
Total Comments: 6

The middleware sets a standard for physics and animation on Nintendo's upcoming console.

The announcement of an agreement between Nintendo and prominent middleware provider Havok, the terms of which will make the latter's physics and animation technology available to studios developing on the Wii U, came three months before Nintendo provides a closer look at its new console. While Havok has powered some games such as Super Smash Bros. Brawl, the inclusion of their middleware in the default Nintendo development environment is a major coup for the company. We spoke with Dave Gargan, Havok VP of Engineering at this year's Game Developers Conference to learn about the available resources and gauge just what they bring to development on the Wii U.

On the agreement with Nintendo:

"We have a worldwide arrangement with Nintendo, so developers get access to our physics and animation technology, which for us is actually something we've been trying and working for Nintendo to do for a long time. We're really excited about this. And I think it sort of reflects a long partnership that we've had with Nintendo for a series of years.

"[The relationship] started with Wii, which was a platform where we pushed a couple key titles, things like Epic Mickey, for instance, where we had physics and animation included in the title. And, particularly, we had a strong third-party portfolio… So Nintendo were eager to see us—they'd seen our technology and how it… enabled different types of fun gameplay—they were eager to see us work with them on the [Wii U]."

Though Gargan notes that the agreement between Havok and Nintendo is "unrelated" to the latter's license agreement with Autodesk, he admits that "without taking too much of the credit for it, I think we helped open the door for other third-parties [to enter into license with] Nintendo."

Havok engine capabilities:

"So, [in the demo shown] we have physics and animation, but the entire portfolio over time will be available on the platform, including things like the Vision Engine [a multi-platform engine acquired by Havok last year].

"What might be interesting to you is how we've taken our portfolio and integrated [the Vision Engine] with a couple of different types of focus. One type of focus is on making environment more dynamic, and the other focus is on characters, and making really believeable characters.

"Vision is a cross-platform game engine, and it allows artists and programmers to work in a single environment… and create content very quickly."

Gargan spoke about the engine's ability to make environments more dynamic, a development trend he noted. "That's something we're starting to see. There's almost been this progression through games as we pack more and more CPU power, we've been doing more and more interactive environments."

Gargan mentioned that many first-person shooters in the past were "wall-crawlers, where nothing moved and everything was static," and how modern games have increasingly broken down those constraints. "The things that we used to consider static, like walls, are now destructible, where designers want them to be destructible."

In addition to touching on the environmental capabilities of the engine, Gargan emphasized the importance of being able to create believable, well-performing characters, "especially on a platform like Nintendo, where characterization is very important... So, our entire behavior technology allows for these performances to be recreated in games, to make very controllable characters. For instance, you could do things like have [a character] walk sideways, walk backwards..."

Gargan also talked about how the animation suite will allow editing of characters' movements to suit complex environments. "So you have a motion-captured animation of someone jumping over a one-meter high obstacle. You need to be able to edit that animation on the fly so they can jump over a two-meter high obstacle... because the environment's constantly changing.

"I think that's probably the theme that we're starting—or we're continuing—to see, that environments are becoming more dynamic, and that's raising new challenges for animation systems, or for AI systems, or for any of the things where previous technology was all statically based."

While the software comes with several preset character settings, developers can bring in their own motion capture data to the engine to create their own style. "Our entire behavior technology will allow [a motion-captured] performance to be recreated in games, to make very controllable characters."

Havok on the 3DS:

'We've already shipped a title on 3DS [Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell 3D], and that was really pushing [the handheld] to its limits. I think because of the relatively limited capabilities the device has, there isn't a huge demand for [the use of Havok tools]."

Bringing the technology to the Wii U:

Gargan noted that all Wii U developers worldwide will have access to the Havok technology, the same way they would access Nintendo software tools, and that they have many cross-platform developer customers who can now easily add Wii U as an SKU for their projects. (None were explicitly discussed, though Gargan mentioned that several unannounced projects are actively in development).

In regard to the dual screen setup of the Wii U, Gargan stated that "with things like dual screens… most of our products are taken by game developers and then integrated, so dual screen [support] is something they typically worry about, rather than us."

Special considerations for the engine on Wii U:

"The platform has its own unique features, and has its own challenges as well. When we come across any new particular platform, we optimize specifically for some of the advantages that those platforms offer over other platforms, and Wii U has specific advantages that no other platform has, and we optimize directly for those, right down at the level of accessing the hardware.

"I think we'll see things done on the Wii U that we won't see on another platforms… I think people will be genuinely excited with the range of titles they're going to see come out."

The demonstration as presented at GDC can be watched in the following video. The demo shown used CPU-processed physics (as opposed to GPU), which, Gargan said, would be the case when the engine runs on Wii U. More Havok videos can be found on their website.
 

wsippel

Banned
fair enough, but what have you been expecting wsippel?
you are one of the most level headed knowledgeable guys around here
I agree with antonz: there's probably no technical reason UE4 couldn't run on Wii U. Will Epic actually support it? And if they don't, will someone else, Gearbox for example, port it? I'm not sure even Epic knows at this point.
 
its TUESDAY!

by this time next week my hype will be so
iOA3AtNMRYoJO.png
 

Elfteiroh

Member
Seriously, UE4 will most probably run on iPads... If it doesn't run on the WiiU, it won't be because it's not powerful enough, and it'll not be Nintendo's fault. It'll be Epic's fault. They are the ones that can make it work on WiiU. If it can be scaled enough to run on iPads or phones (I somewhat doubt it, but we saw it with UE3... albeit really limited), it SHOULD be able to run on WiiU. IMHO.
Also, if it can't run on WiiU, it won't run on any of my computers. So I won't play games using it, and I won't be making them, at least, not soon.

@Darthdago:
Yeah, I've read it. Pretty cool and gets my hope up. It makes me believe that Nintendo might have focused the console's power more toward physics than graphical prowess, something that really feel like something Nintendo could (would) do. Graphics have way more power to modify gameplay than physics, and they always prefer to do things that could enhance gameplay.
 
I agree with antonz: there's probably no technical reason UE4 couldn't run on Wii U. Will Epic actually support it? And if they don't, will someone else, Gearbox for example, port it? I'm not sure even Epic knows at this point.

this will take about 2 years to know for sure unless Epic comes out and makes a statement

what is Aliens CM running on by the way?
 

tkscz

Member
this will take about 2 years to know for sure unless Epic comes out and makes a statement

what is Aliens CM running on by the way?

It's running on UE3, but the WiiU version got pushed back *suspicion*

Don't care though. Honestly, I hope UE4 fails so Epic can stop thinking they rule the gaming world. They need some stiff competition, an engine that can run as good as UE4, but do it on less demanding hardware. Crytek almost had that with CE3, it looked just as good, if not better than Samaritan, but had a shitty UI and wasn't easy to use.
 

Gahiggidy

My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
I believe it was Metro Last Light that got pushed back. With Aliens it was delayed with Wii U version unannounced.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
You think there could ever be "universal" games between the Wii U and 3DS? With their upcoming DD infrastructure, they could give you both versions with one payment. The games could be technically the same design but with different graphics settings like iOS games on different devices or PS3/Vita. What if the upcoming Wii U Mario is an HD version of NSMB2 with cross-platform saving? I think the projects will at least have some cross-platform interoperability.
 

darthdago

Member
beside the discussion if UE4 will be on WiiU or not (and if, when) the question is do we really need it?
iirc we have Cryengine, Autodesk, HAVOK (physiks, animation and mentined in the interview visions) and UE3.9....also for sure some other inhouse engines from 3rd parties.

So wont that engines be enough to show me some nice games for the comeing 5-6years?!

Me, I love to play Fallout for example and there HAVOK was used or not?

I'm sure we will see some nice games on WiiU in HD 1080p or a bit below (which is all I want).

We have developers on here, right?

PLZ answer me only that one now, do we have a good chance to see all WiiU games in a range of 720p to 1080p on main screen and does the WiiU have a good hardware upscaler like the 360?
 

jwhit28

Member
I don't need Wii U to be the best looking console I just want 3rd party games to be able to be fully realized on it so I don't need an additional console. The Wii sacrificed graphics and controls and the GameCube sacrificed controls and sound/cutscene quality in a lot of games.

I'm going to pick up a Nintendo console for the 1st party titles regardless and the thought of some of the technical shackles being thrown off by Nintendo devs excites me but it would be a great bonus if I don't necessarily need another console or have to play the waiting game on PC for the good 3rd party titles.
 

Antioch

Member
Why exactly do people think what Geoff said on Twitter confirms UE4 not running on Wii U? He says he can't give a hint and notes that UE3 runs on it. That's it.
 

Antioch

Member
You think there could ever be "universal" games between the Wii U and 3DS? With their upcoming DD infrastructure, they could give you both versions with one payment. The games could be technically the same design but with different graphics settings like iOS games on different devices or PS3/Vita. What if the upcoming Wii U Mario is an HD version of NSMB2 with cross-platform saving? I think the projects will at least have some cross-platform interoperability.

I could see Lego City Stories having some cross-platform capability.
 

ffdgh

Member
Why exactly do people think what Geoff said on Twitter confirms UE4 not running on Wii U? He says he can't give a hint and notes that UE3 runs on it. That's it.

because looking at the worse case scenario first is the best way to go?
and lol nintendo
 

Red UFO

Member
As somebody who was most excited that UE4 'would allow people to do what now takes us years in months.' I find the news pretty depressing.


And don't be giving me that 'but they didn't say!!' nonsense, you're in denial.
 

Oddduck

Member
I still think the worst thing Nintendo did was stay so secret on the Wii U specs for an entire year.

If they had been more open about the system's graphics, people would be talking more about possible games at E3 instead of graphics and engines.

Right now, Nintendo has all these overly optimistic people clinging onto hope that they'll blow them away with graphics they've never seen on 360/PS3.

It's very depressing. And it will backfire on Nintendo's E3 conference.

They'll show all of these awesome games, but it will get overshadowed by talk about graphics and engines and future proofing.
 

EVH

Member
Let's face it, the UE3 was the fucking standard for lots of AAA games this gen. If WiiU is not enough strong for UE4, we're quite probably in Wii situation again. Period.
 

magash

Member
I still think the worst thing Nintendo did was stay so secret on the Wii U specs for an entire year.

If they had been more open about the system's graphics, people would be talking more about possible games at E3 instead of graphics and engines.

Right now, Nintendo has all these overly optimistic people clinging onto hope that they'll blow them away with graphics they've never seen on 360/PS3.

It's very depressing. And it will backfire on Nintendo's E3 conference.

They'll show all of these awesome games, but it will get overshadowed by talk about graphics and engines and future proofing.

Who are these optimistic people?
 

Oddduck

Member
Who are these optimistic people?

Not so much on Neogaf because members here are realistic.

But I've seen people on other gaming message boards acting like Nintendo will surprise all of their critics and haters when it comes to power/graphics. It just seems very delusional.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Let's face it, the UE3 was the fucking standard for lots of AAA games this gen. If WiiU is not enough strong for UE4, we're quite probably in Wii situation again. Period.
You're trying too hard. Relax.
 

wsippel

Banned
I heavily doubt everything WiiUDaily writes, but their recent OS rumor mentions one aspect that actually seems to make sense: Streaming your gameplay to friends. Why is this plausible? Well, Wii U now supposedly supports two pads, so it needs to have two realtime encoders. One of which would do pretty much nothing at all in single player games. So why not use the second one to stream the game? Shouldn't even affect system performance, as networking and streaming in general is done by the IO processor, not the main CPU if patent schematics are anything to go by - it should be a general hardware feature, not something that needs to be in the game. The system should also be capable of recording gameplay video without a performance hit.
 
I still think the worst thing Nintendo did was stay so secret on the Wii U specs for an entire year.

If they had been more open about the system's graphics, people would be talking more about possible games at E3 instead of graphics and engines.

Right now, Nintendo has all these overly optimistic people clinging onto hope that they'll blow them away with graphics they've never seen on 360/PS3.

It's very depressing. And it will backfire on Nintendo's E3 conference.

They'll show all of these awesome games, but it will get overshadowed by talk about graphics and engines and future proofing.
But you know for a fact that's not true.Even if we knew the specs the topic would still be about what the system can or can't do.It's just how people are they need a reason to validate what they like or buy.
 

EVH

Member
You're trying too hard. Relax.

Do not worry, I'm quite relaxed. But it's as sad to see people trying to twist the words of Geoff as much as possible so they still get a valid opinion as it is to deny that UE3 was the main engine in the current generation.
 
Thats not true.

Seriously. Unreal Engine is great and all, but it probably seems like more games are running on it than there truly are, because the engine gets mentioned so often. I was reading over the list of UE3 games when I was looking at the 'Wii can't run UE4' thread, it have a few awesome games there, but if UE4 has the exact same support UE3 did, and the Wii U doesn't run UE4, it definitely wouldn't be the end of the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games#Unreal_Engine_3
 

magash

Member
Not so much on Neogaf because members here are realistic.

But I've seen people on other gaming message boards acting like Nintendo will surprise all of their critics and haters. It just seems very delusional.

Nintendo will most likely surprise people with their games and maybe their online infrastructure. People that expected a very huge graphical power house have no one to blame but themselves. Iwata told his investors Nintendo wasn't going into a power fight.

What we know for a fact is that the Wii U is stronger than the PS3/Xbox360. How much stronger only Nintendo and developers know.
 

Gahiggidy

My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
I heavily doubt everything WiiUDaily writes, but their recent OS rumor mentions one aspect that actually seems to make sense: Streaming your gameplay to friends. Why is this plausible? Well, Wii U now supposedly supports two pads, so it needs to have two realtime encoders. One of which would do pretty much nothing at all in single player games. So why not use the second one to stream the game? Shouldn't even affect system performance, as networking and streaming in general is done by the IO processor, not the main CPU if patent schematics are anything to go by - it should be a general hardware feature, not something that needs to be in the game. The system should also be capable of recording gameplay video without a performance hit.

Hmm... could it also record television without a performance hit?
 

magash

Member
Seriously. Unreal Engine is great and all, but it probably seems like more games use it than they actually do. I was reading over the list of UE3 games when I was looking at the 'Wii can't run UE4' thread, it have a few awesome games there, but if UE4 has the exact same support UE3 did, and the Wii U doesn't run UE4, it definitely wouldn't be the end of the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games#Unreal_Engine_3

If this is the full list of games that utilized UE3 this gen then why are people making a big deal out of this whole UE4 situation? There are less than 150 games (all devices) that made use of UE3 for God sake.
 

darthdago

Member
Let's face it, the UE3 was the fucking standard for lots of AAA games this gen. If WiiU is not enough strong for UE4, we're quite probably in Wii situation again. Period.

which ones?

and as far as I have heard it in the last thread its not about the power that WiiU will offer.
Its about the hw-features that WiiU will offer.
So it looks good for WiiU to be able to run UE4 but if it will...thats a decission made by Epic.
 
I heavily doubt everything WiiUDaily writes, but their recent OS rumor mentions one aspect that actually seems to make sense: Streaming your gameplay to friends. Why is this plausible? Well, Wii U now supposedly supports two pads, so it needs to have two realtime encoders. One of which would do pretty much nothing at all in single player games. So why not use the second one to stream the game? Shouldn't even affect system performance, as networking and streaming in general is done by the IO processor, not the main CPU if patent schematics are anything to go by - it should be a general hardware feature, not something that needs to be in the game. The system should also be capable of recording gameplay video without a performance hit.

would be very nice if this proves to be true

very nice feature indeed

wait... I have not friends :|
 
If this is the full list of games that utilized UE3 this gen then why are people making a big deal out of this whole UE4 situation? There are less than 150 games (all devices) that made use of UE3 for God sake.
This is why I was asking earlier if people were more concerned about the lack of UE4 support or the implications it would have on how well it will be supported by other engines. If it doesn't support it, will it just be UE4 (not really too big a deal) or will it mean many more engines following suit won't be supported (a much bigger deal)?
 

magash

Member
This is why I was asking earlier if people were more concerned about the lack of UE4 support or the implications it would have on how well it will be supported by other engines. If it doesn't support it, will it just be UE4 (not really too big a deal) or will it mean many more engines following suit won't be supported (a much bigger deal)?

What we know for a fact about the Wii U is that it runs UE3, Cry Engine 3, 4A Engine, etc. Basically all 3rd party engines that run on Ps3/360 will most likely run on Wii U. I think Nintendo fans have nothing to worry about Wii U when it comes to engine support. The main issue is funding games that fully utilize these engines.
 

Gahiggidy

My aunt & uncle run a Mom & Pop store, "The Gamecube Hut", and sold 80k WiiU within minutes of opening.
It probably could - if it had video in. Which it doesn't as far as we know.

Video-in on a console is actually a dream feature of mine, as it would allow me to assign games to channels, or rather sub channels, between the Network channels. Imagine being able to channel surf where in between channel numbers you see various title screens from your games loaded onto a drive. Pikmin would come between HGTV and the Food Network. Eternal Darkness after the SyFy network. The fact that games are on a separate input than TV, that you have to switch over to, makes the seem like a second act to the main feature.
 

effzee

Member
I still think the worst thing Nintendo did was stay so secret on the Wii U specs for an entire year.

If they had been more open about the system's graphics, people would be talking more about possible games at E3 instead of graphics and engines.

Right now, Nintendo has all these overly optimistic people clinging onto hope that they'll blow them away with graphics they've never seen on 360/PS3.

It's very depressing. And it will backfire on Nintendo's E3 conference.

They'll show all of these awesome games, but it will get overshadowed by talk about graphics and engines and future proofing.

Agreed. While most here knew from the start it wouldn't match whatever PS4/NextBox720 will offer, the lack of specs has speculated a year long conversation over the exact amount of juice. They could have really avoided this.
 
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