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Tonight, the Senate votes on four gun control bills [update: everything failed]

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commedieu

Banned
The qualifier about lobbying doesn't make the argument any more nuanced, since if both sides are lobbied to the point that they're under control of the same entity, then they are essentially both the same. Should I have said "Both sides have been corrupted to be the same!" to not misrepresent you?

And if you want a consistent Democratic majority in the Senate that can confirm justices who are willing to support stronger campaign finance laws, then you need to vote in midterms. Unless you think that both sides are the same, which is a good excuse not to bother.

I vote, but I'm not delusional to think that midterm voting is going to change the fact that our government doesn't represent its tax paying people. Your assumption was that I'm saying not to bother, no, I'm saying that there are some substantial problems with how our system has been taken advantage of by lobbying which is deeply seeded in our process. Thats why I take a issue with "both sides amiright!" I'd love to see that vote happen with stronger campaign finance laws, but it will not happen as that isn't what the people that throw billions into our politicians want to happen. We've just been sitting around in this country looking at how corporations have become more important people -- than people themselves. Who is going to put pressure on those candidates to get campaign finance law reform that trumps the money taken to run for office or campaign? Again, like what we are seeing with GOP representatives ignoring what a majority of republicans want. There is a core issue here that isn't going to be resolved by voting for people who are in seats paid for by lobbies to begin with. Its like the police investigating themselves of wrong doing. It always comes up negative.

I see too many instances of some small town candidate being railroaded by some giant fucking industry. And the people that allow the giant industry to railroad are the people making the rules, who often have revolving doors to said giant industry.
 

Link

The Autumn Wind
What it has to do with gun control bills, is that the bills offered from the Democrats would have had little to no effect on the ease of access to weapons used in mass shootings. They were nonsense bills used to show how bad the republicans are for november, as others have said. So there are our representatives, still not doing fuck all to address the issue.
I feel like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth here. Of course the point was to show that Republicans wouldn't even vote for minor, common sense measures. They knew anything proposed was going to fail. Did you want them to attempt a big, sweeping gun control bill instead? All that would have done was get less voters on their side.
 

HariKari

Member
Fucking how? It's literally trying yo stop terrorists and criminals only yet still fails. That's not even gun control, that's common fucking sense.

The gun lobby refuses to cede any ground, even if it's common sense. It ultimately makes them a target but they feel protected. If you had allies on both sides of the aisle, wouldn't you?

I'm a gun owner but the fact that this country can't even close the gun show loophole is fucking stupid. It shouldn't be a lot to ask that a background check is performed every time a gun changes hands.
 
It makes sense on why they did this.

By approving the Bill you bring the argument on what counts as a terrorist...

and seeing now that the CIA and FBI dropped any connections that Omar Mahteen had with any terror group you enter the basic problem of what reasons leads to people going on such rampages and who do you restrict and who do you let run wild.

This later expands to other gun violence and shootings in the US and you eventually see the real problem about shootings in the USA and that gun laws have to become harder to every citizen of any nationality and/or view point.

A tide rises all boats not just a specific few. By approving the bill it leads to a pathway of changing other things that they try to heavily ignore, defend.
 

Boney

Banned
You must have missed when you wrote about an alleged conspiracy. There isn't one. You also claimed that I said both parties are the same without any qualifiers like lobbying. Specifically by people interested in continued violence as they benefit from it. Contractors all need weapons, although they manage to bake people to death without them.

My point is that democrats are lobbied, just as republicans are when it comes to industries that rely on violence to thrive. That is the voices they listen to, not the people on the ground. As we see 90% of republicans were in favor of the gun control bills, yet, you see the lobbying took precedence over the voice of the people. This is the same for democrats, and its a problem with our political system currently. For any gun control to happen, we need to work on getting that element out of the equation. Else its all just fluff for twitter hits.

What it has to do with gun control bills, is that the bills offered from the Democrats would have had little to no effect on the ease of access to weapons used in mass shootings. They were nonsense bills used to show how bad the republicans are for november, as others have said. So there are our representatives, still not doing fuck all to address the issue.
Well public opinion has basically no correlation with public policy, but economic elite and business oriented interest groups have a near 1:1 correlation with policy. Shit is scary

http://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/...testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf
 

commedieu

Banned
I feel like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth here. Of course the point was to show that Republicans wouldn't even vote for minor, common sense measures. They knew anything proposed was going to fail. Did you want them to attempt a big, sweeping gun control bill instead? All that would have done was get less voters on their side.

If I'm doing something that I know is going to be overturned, I'm coming out guns blazing to show the people who are oh - so - important to me ( the voter ) that I'm there to do my job no matter what. These are the problems, and these are the solutions, or the beginnings of the conversations that we need to have. Toothless horseshit is the same nonsense that the Democratic party has been offering for gun control. I'm not even a fan of guns, yet I know that these things aren't going after the root causes of problems in our country with gun control. Voters all want action right now. The democrats failed to show they can even pretend to have realistic solutions to reduce mass shootings and daily gun violence. Have your big guns, and your baby shit guns to prove the point. These people are being paid to do a job. But that is just my work ethic. I've seen nothing from the body of the DNC to suggest they are serious about reducing gun violence in the USA, why would a midterm vote change that fact?
 

Quixzlizx

Member
I vote, but I'm not delusional to think that midterm voting is going to change the fact that our government doesn't represent its tax paying people. Your assumption was that I'm saying not to bother, no, I'm saying that there are some substantial problems with how our system has been taken advantage of by lobbying which is deeply seeded in our process. Thats why I take a issue with "both sides amiright!" I'd love to see that vote happen with stronger campaign finance laws, but it will not happen as that isn't what the people that throw billions into our politicians want to happen. We've just been sitting around in this country looking at how corporations have become more important people -- than people themselves. Who is going to put pressure on those candidates to get campaign finance law reform that trumps the money taken to run for office or campaign? Again, like what we are seeing with GOP representatives ignoring what a majority of republicans want. There is a core issue here that isn't going to be resolved by voting for people who are in seats paid for by lobbies to begin with. Its like the police investigating themselves of wrong doing. It always comes up negative.

I see too many instances of some small town candidate being railroaded by some giant fucking industry. And the people that allow the giant industry to railroad are the people making the rules, who often have revolving doors to said giant industry.

I mean, the Supreme Court struck down campaign finance restrictions in the Citizen United decision, so clearly there are laws that can be passed. One problem is the Democrats only ever have control by the skin of their teeth, so all it takes is focus fire lobbying on a couple of individuals to water down a bill, like what happened to the public option in Obamacare.

If Democrats had control of more state legislatures, it also wouldn't be as important to fix things at a federal level. You don't see abortion rights getting run into the ground in blue states.
 

commedieu

Banned
I mean, the Supreme Court struck down campaign finance restrictions in the Citizen United decision, so clearly there are laws that can be passed. One problem is the Democrats only ever have control by the skin of their teeth, so all it takes is focus fire lobbying on a couple of individuals to water down a bill, like what happened to the public option in Obamacare.

If Democrats had control of more state legislatures, it also wouldn't be as important to fix things at a federal level. You don't see abortion rights getting run into the ground in blue states.

I do hope that you're right. And one of the reasons why I know hillary will be good for the quality of life for human beings in the USA, is that hopefully the Dems can get a majority. But that does come at a cost, and I'm seeing that cost manifest in continual war, right erosion, and a pick-and-choose sort of issue fun-hat, where bones are thrown out along the way on the path of some pretty heinous, wasteful agendas which are heavily lobbied. The wealth gap kept rising with King Obama. Homelessness keeps rising. Housing is blowing its wad all over us. Its great that we get these bones along the way. I'm happy for gay rights, but at the same time seeing some bum get mowed down for sleeping on a sidewalk bugs me. I guess I am just frustrated, but god dammit I hope you're right. The GOP seems evil, while the DNC seems like the devil thats got you by the balls/ovaries, but blows some cool air on you every now and then.
 
I'm a gun owner but the fact that this country can't even close the gun show loophole is fucking stupid. It shouldn't be a lot to ask that a background check is performed every time a gun changes hands.

Whats really sad is that as a gun owner, I re-apply for my permit to purchase every year. Takes 20 minutes to fill out, and a week of waiting for it in the mail. Not to hard, right? That way I never have to wait for backround checks of any sort, I jut show the card and BAM! New gun! When I have sold firearms, I have demanded that anyone I sell to have a valid, current Permit to Purchase. Its common fucking sense, and nothing can get passed.

Hell, I went to an auction last week where the family was selling something like 50+ firearms, and the auctioneer said flat out that nobody without a valid PtP would be allowed to leave with anything and that everything would be held until they passed. A dozen people walked right out.
 

alternade

Member
Maybe when someone shoots a few dozens senators will something happen. When they can "relate" and its their lives on the line will they do something.

Like I said before, if over a dozen children can be killed and nothing happened, the slaughter of one of the most vilified and polarizing communities in this country wasn't going to move the dial an inch.

Thoughts and prayers are all we get.
 

JABEE

Member
The terrorist Watch list in 2007 was already over 700,000 names with 20,000 people added a month. The ALCU reported that in 2009 the list had grown to over 1 million people based on growth rates. In America the standards for getting on lists is extremely low and in most cases you have no way to defend yourself. Which is why things like Republican Bill B is so important. Due Process is supposed to be guaranteed but we find more often than not they use the specter of terrorism etc. to deny the rights.
And the government loves using tragedy to chip away even more on due process. Gun control is important, but using the FBIs prejudicial watch list to make these determinations is flawed and unconstitutional.
 

tfur

Member
And the government loves using tragedy to chip away even more on due process. Gun control is important, but using the FBIs prejudicial watch list to make these determinations is flawed and unconstitutional.


Yep. The Democratic proposals were terrible, and based on zero due process. We should be happy those failed.
 
Farout. The obsession with guns is uncanny. America needs a culture change. If the public supports gun control, why wont elected members actually do what they want. Why even call the nation a democracy.
 

Doc Holliday

SPOILER: Columbus finds America
I love how anti background checks people are so concerned about civil liberties yet these same people had no trouble with the patriot act, Guantanamo, and repealing abortion rights...good stuff.


For those who can't live without a gun and are on a terror list, make it legal for them to own a single bolt hunting rifle lol.

I swear some people make guns sound like food and water.
 
This is becoming a joke that is no longer humorous in the slightest. All that's being asked is to conduct background checks for people who have been suspected to be terrorists already. I really don't understand how not a single one was passed.
 
We need gun control but I'd rather not base it off things like the no fly list. I'd rather scrap the post 911 leglislation anyway. I'd be fine with a system like France if I'm interpreting it correctly.
 
This is getting really fucking sad.....

We need gun control but I'd rather not base it off things like the no fly list. I'd rather scrap the post 911 leglislation anyway. I'd be fine with a system like France if I'm interpreting it correctly.

I'd feel a lot better with a system like Australia's
 
Fuck Republican voters if they support these politicians in the midterms, because it means that they truly don't care about the views of their politicians if the polls are authentic that they are in favor of many of the gun control initiatives here.
 
This is getting really fucking sad.....



I'd feel a lot better with a system like Australia's

Unnecessarily strict. They even have restrictions on paintball and air guns in the same category as real guns, at least according to Wikipedia. Let's be real. I still think the 2nd amendment is important and provides enough room for regulation. The current stance of the NRA is unacceptable but we shouldn't be so eager to give away our rights out of fear just because you personally don't exercise them. Every right cuts both ways and I think it's important to find a middle ground. Neither open season or total ban are the correct paths for me. It's tough to find an acceptable middle ground but I think we could do it in a way that saves lives and retains important rights.
 
What's it going to take to get Republicans to give a shit?

Elementary School Massacre? NOPE
Night Club Massacre? NOPE
Church Massacre? NOPE

We're literally running out of places for gun massacres to happen and still call it a first for depravity...

The GoP convention itself could have a shooting spree and they still probably wouldn't give a shit.

That's how insane these people are. Completely enslaved by the NRA.
 

Culex

Banned
What's it going to take to get Republicans to give a shit?

Elementary School Massacre? NOPE
Night Club Massacre? NOPE
Church Massacre? NOPE

We're literally running out of places for gun massacres to happen and still call it a first for depravity...

The GoP convention itself could have a shooting spree and they still probably wouldn't give a shit.

That's how insane these people are. Completely enslaved by the NRA.

Even a massacre at capitol hill involving the deaths of multiple law makers wouldn't change a thing.

"we OBVIOUSLY need MORE guns"
 

RPGCrazied

Member
What's it going to take to get Republicans to give a shit?

Elementary School Massacre? NOPE
Night Club Massacre? NOPE
Church Massacre? NOPE

We're literally running out of places for gun massacres to happen and still call it a first for depravity...

The GoP convention itself could have a shooting spree and they still probably wouldn't give a shit.

That's how insane these people are. Completely enslaved by the NRA.

At this point they could lose loved ones to gun violence and probably not care. Its that bad.
 

rykomatsu

Member
Isn't the 3rd bill (Grassly's I think?) essentially the same as NRA's stance? ie. Grant due process to those who fail the background check?

If so, what's the reason this one didn't pass?

Edit: Cornryn
 

MJPIA

Member
Was wondering why Toomey voted against considering he was part of the filibuster and checked his facebook.
He wasn't happy about it.
https://www.facebook.com/senatortoomey/
Today’s votes were nothing more than a partisan charade. They are symbolic of why most Americans have so little faith in Washington, and why Washington too often does so little to address the serious problems our country faces.

Today’s votes were designed to fail. They were designed to maximize partisan differences, and minimize our ability to find the common ground needed to actually make progress and save lives. That is an outrage.

On background checks, had there been a real search for common ground, there would have been a vote on the bipartisan legislation that Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) and I authored in 2013 and that I still support. In fact, Sen. Manchin and I filed our proposal again as an amendment last week in the hopes of getting it acted upon today. Instead, the Senate considered a different extreme background check amendment that had even less bipartisan support.

On the issue of keeping guns away from terrorists, rather than considering compromise legislation that I have introduced or that is being worked on by Sen. Collins (R-Maine) and others, we once again voted on previously defeated proposals that had no meaningful level of bipartisan support.

There should be a sensible middle ground on issues such as expanded background checks and keeping guns out of the hands of terrorists, but today’s votes mark another missed opportunity to find it. When I first dove into the gun safety effort after the Sandy Hook shootings, I worked across party lines, since that was the only way to get something done. Today, bipartisanship is needed more than ever on this issue that cries out for action. Today, we did not get that. But I will not give up, and in the days and weeks to come, I remain determined to achieve real results for the American people, whose safety depends on it.
What differences are their between the bill he introduced 3 years ago and the one today?
 
Cornyn and Murphy bills were most reasonable and had little reason to be defeated. Cornyn still required the burden to be on the government, not purchaser.
 
I don't think a comic has ever summed up how I feel as well as this one does

portal.png
 

rjinaz

Member
Just saw a poll showing 90% of Republicans supported these bills. Yet it still can't pass. What a joke. And they wonder why they can't get elected? lol.

That's fair. These particular Republican politicians that are servants to the NRA then. Though to also be fair and as you pointed out, Republican voters are the ones that keep putting them in office.
 

Flo_Evans

Member
I mean I just kind of assumed if the fbi was interviewing you at any point it would raise a flag in the existing system for further review. It's kind of amazing this guy didn't try and go through a private sale on the Internet.

I'm just not sure how the hell it could work with due process. I highly doubt they can do a full investigation in 3 days, they can't haul you in and make you prove you're not a terrorist.

I just don't like the idea of giving up rights because you are on some government list. Imagine you go to vote and they say "oh sorry looks like the IRS has opened a file on you, can't vote until you clear this up"
 

besada

Banned
What's it going to take to get Republicans to give a shit?
Consistent, widespread issue voting and a gun control lobby capable of delivering the same number of phone calls and letters on a regular basis.

In short, for gun control advocates to spend more time and money being active.

Feel free to start by clicking my tag.
 
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