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True Detective - Season 2 - We get the Season we deserve - Sundays on HBO

Squalor

Junior Member
Pizzolato went from beloved to piece of shit in a span of two seasons? damn, fell faster than Shaq during TNT post game show
Except the writing was never the first season's strongest point, anyway.

Acting, cinematography, and directing were all stronger than the scripts.

Here, however, without the others to buoy the weak points of the writing, the weak points stand out more.

Also, though, his writing is definitely worse this season.
 
Except the writing was never the first season's strongest point, anyway.

Acting, cinematography, and directing were all stronger than the scripts.

Here, however, without the others to buoy the weak points of the writing, the weak points stand out more.

Also, though, his writing is definitely worse this season.

Besides better cinematography and a cast, I do wonder if the show would be improved by actually having a writer's room? I mean for the first season Pizzalato had years to write it, and plus he had Matthew, Woody and Fukunaga backing him up, and the cast of main characters was smaller than this years season.

Now for season 2 he only had, what, a whole year to write all eight episodes by himself? I think it'd be difficult for anyone to write 8 quality and engaging episodes in a single year.

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned this already but a writers room would have its advantages competitively and creatively in that everyone would be competing to make better stories and everyone would be injecting their ideas to make something better. Maybe Nic feels that its better for him to write the whole season so that it feels cohesive. When you look at how this season is turning out, its hard to see all that.
 
Except the writing was never the first season's strongest point, anyway.

Acting, cinematography, and directing were all stronger than the scripts.

Here, however, without the others to buoy the weak points of the writing, the weak points stand out more.

Also, though, his writing is definitely worse this season.

true. man i love seasons one finale.
 

Iceman

Member
Except the writing was never the first season's strongest point, anyway.

Acting, cinematography, and directing were all stronger than the scripts.

Here, however, without the others to buoy the weak points of the writing, the weak points stand out more.

Also, though, his writing is definitely worse this season.

Have you read the scripts? I have episodes 1 and 2 of the first season and they are pretty great. Dense and descriptive; reads almost like a novel. Dialogue is character distinct and pointed. Sharp. You can project a set of images very similar to the ones we got from Fukanaga's direction right off the page. I'm going to guess the screenplay (technically speaking) is not what's holding this production back.
 
Even S1 had the occasional stinker of a line or sequence ("My family's been round here a reeeal long time"; "FREEZE!" "...no." *runs off*). The two black detectives kinda become joke characters. The villain is pretty underwhelming, when all is said and done. I still have disdain for the finale and how watered down the show's themes became.

Plus, the whole Ligotti plagiarism thing.

Has anyone read Galveston or any of Pizza's other work? I got it for Christmas but haven't read it yet.
 

Squalor

Junior Member
Have you read the scripts? I have episodes 1 and 2 of the first season and they are pretty great. Dense and descriptive; reads almost like a novel. Dialogue is character distinct and pointed. Sharp. You can project a set of images very similar to the ones we got from Fukanaga's direction right off the page. I'm going to guess the screenplay (technically speaking) is not what's holding this production back.
You do realize character development is part of "scripts," right?

After Rust and Marty, there isn't a single character with development. There are a few with some personality, which is cool, but there was no character development for anyone else. Plus, he couldn't write a female character to save his life.

(And season two continues to prove that. He also can't write a gay character, for that matter.)

After Rust and Marty, the setting was the best character, and we can likely attribute that to the art department, cinematography, and direction.

And there are numerous clumsy moments throughout the first season dialogue and plot-wise, including the first three episodes.

But as I said, the writing was better in season one than it has been thus far in season two by a pretty demonstrable margin.
 
They way sex is used in the season like some sort of shock/taboo/transgression (with the closeted gay guy, the porn sister, the rich mansion with the models, etc.) feels a bit out of touch and weak, like something you'd expect from an 80-90s movie.

This is actually a point that could redeem the theme/plotting of certain aspects of the show. All of the sexual/social hang-ups come from the lead characters, and not from anyone else. Ani's father/sister, Vaughn's wife, Caspere's creepy psychologist are all pretty sex-positive. I don't think Pizzolatto is telling the audience that these issues are taboo or transgressive; I think it's supposed to show how backwards and out of touch the lead characters are.

If all of the people who are sex-positive become the main antagonists, then yes, that's a pretty backwards idea for a drama in 2015.
 

Fjordson

Member
Pizzolato went from beloved to piece of shit in a span of two seasons? damn, fell faster than Shaq on Inside the NBA
lmao.

Yeah, I couldn't disagree more that the writing was weak in S1. Undoubtedly one of the strong points of the show for me. Not that it was perfect, but one the whole I thought it was damn good.
 

glow

Banned
I really liked ep1 and 2 despite a couple of flaws but ep3 was bogged down by a lot of poor and clunky writing. There isn't much bad acting on this show imo, just some bad casting. Vince Vaughn playing Frank doesn't work most of the time. The fight scene with him in the last episode was way too unbelievable. If Vince Vaughn was physically bigger or the club owner smaller it would've worked.

I have a feeling this season will start getting better, there is so much building going on they'd really have to screw it up for it to get worse.
 

zychi

Banned
Finally watched and caught up on the thread. I think the Stan scene you guys are all hung up on about was made to point out the character for later. Like hes going to be on the hard drive they took, or he worked for Vince and the police. Something bigger will come out of Stan being murdered.
 
Even S1 had the occasional stinker of a line or sequence ("My family's been round here a reeeal long time"; "FREEZE!" "...no." *runs off*). The two black detectives kinda become joke characters. The villain is pretty underwhelming, when all is said and done. I still have disdain for the finale and how watered down the show's themes became.

Plus, the whole Ligotti plagiarism thing.

Has anyone read Galveston or any of Pizza's other work? I got it for Christmas but haven't read it yet.

I'm bummed to hear that he originally did consider Marty and Rust not coming out of the maze alive. Not because every fuckin show needs to have a dark ending or anything. It just made perfect sense that their complete obsession with the case, to the point where it destroyed everything else in their lives and led to them committing countless illegal acts, would in fact lead them to solving the case but at the cost of their lives.

The ending felt so tonally strange to me the way it treated them like these honorable heroes, whereas the show until that point was them committing despicable act after despicable act.

I think it would've been kinda interesting if they'd died of their wounds after taking out lawnmower guy, but nobody ever found their bodies or discovered what happened cuz they never got that phone call out.
 

Squalor

Junior Member
Idris Elba for True Detective season three (since people want to put him in everything these days, anyway) with Nic Cage.
 
S3 - Nic Cage and Joaquin Phoenix with Gary Busey as a side character.. my head would explode from overacting alone..

Nick Nolte instead of Busey.

I wonder if Daniel Day-Lewis is ready to come back to acting? Maybe pair him with Mickey Rourke? I'm literally daydreaming at this point.

Also, Viggo Mortensen would have killed it in place of Vince Vaughn. HBO should really just go after top-tier actors and see if they get any bites.
 

Blader

Member
I had a dream that the TD S3 pairing was David Duchovny and Gillian Anderson. Which is weird because I've never even watched The X-Files.

You do realize character development is part of "scripts," right?

After Rust and Marty, there isn't a single character with development. There are a few with some personality, which is cool, but there was no character development for anyone else. Plus, he couldn't write a female character to save his life.

Well there's not supposed to be? It's not just that Rust and Marty are the leads, they're the show. I don't think you're highlighting some big omission here, like Pizzaman accidentally forgot to write in character development for others; he just never intended to in the first place and was only interested in delving into his two detectives.

(I would also argue that Maggie is written with character development too, albeit a meager amount)
 

Squalor

Junior Member
Well there's not supposed to be? It's not just that Rust and Marty are the leads, they're the show. I don't think you're highlighting some big omission here, like Pizzaman accidentally forgot to write in character development for others; he just never intended to in the first place and was only interested in delving into his two detectives.

(I would also argue that Maggie is written with character development too, albeit a meager amount)
No. Just because a show is insular and focused on two characters doesn't mean other characters' developments or lack there of can be ignored.

The other characters are in the show, so choosing to remove them from analytical and critical context is just disingenuous. When you pull back from the two leads, which the show does often enough, there's nothing there.

Maggie had no development. She was a device. She barely had a personality aside from occupying the roll of the fed-up-wife cliché.

It's not as though writing the other characters better would have detracted from Marty and Rust. That's not how writing works.
 

Blader

Member
Pizzolato went from beloved to piece of shit in a span of two seasons? damn, fell faster than Shaq on Inside the NBA

I think the main problem this year is that there's clearly no one to filter him out or tell him no. He's clearly being given free reign this season whereas in S1 there was constant (creative) head-butting between him and Fukunaga.

Or McConaughey being approached for Marty only to insist he play Rust and recommend Woody Harrelson for Marty. Compare that to Pizzaman wanting Vince Vaughn for Frank purely for the challenge of wanting to make Vaughn look like a strong dramatic actor (and forgetting in the process that Pizzaman is neither a director nor an acting coach).

No. Just because a show is insular and focused on two characters doesn't mean other characters' developments or lack there of can be ignored.

Well it can, does, and did. Sorry.

The other characters are in the show, so choosing to remove them from analytical and critical context is just disingenuous. When you pull back from the two leads, which the show does often enough, there's nothing there.

If by often enough, you mean barely. Aside from Childress with his sister/wife in the finale, was there even a single scene in the show without either Marty or Rust in it? It's overwhelmingly their story and they're present for it in about 95-ish percent of the material. They're the focal characters of this character piece, talking about a show outside of them is disingenuous.

It's not as though writing the other characters better would have detracted from Marty and Rust. That's not how writing works.

lol, ok, here we go. You can save your lessons buddy.
 

hey_it's_that_dog

benevolent sexism
No. Just because a show is insular and focused on two characters doesn't mean other characters' developments or lack there of can be ignored.

The other characters are in the show, so choosing to remove them from analytical and critical context is just disingenuous. When you pull back from the two leads, which the show does often enough, there's nothing there.

Maggie had no development. She was a device. She barely had a personality aside from occupying the roll of the fed-up-wife cliché.

It's not as though writing the other characters better would have detracted from Marty and Rust. That's not how writing works.

I'm struggling to see how you aren't implying that all characters in a work must be equally developed to some arbitrary standard, or should be omitted entirely. I've never heard of such a rule nor does it apply to many of the "best" shows in history.

And to your last point, when you put focus on something else, it necessarily detracts focus from the first thing. That's how focus works. The focus of the show was intended to be Marty and Rust. Why isn't that enough?

Like, I understand in principle that poorly developed characters with no arc can be a problem, but doesn't that depend immensely on who the characters are and their positioning in the work? Peripheral characters have to exist. Something isn't badly written (or even mildly weak) just by virtue of their being peripheral.
 

Squalor

Junior Member
I'm struggling to see how you aren't implying that all characters in a work must be equally developed to some arbitrary standard, or should be omitted entirely. I've never heard of such a rule nor does it apply to many of the "best" shows in history.

And to your last point, when you put focus on something else, it necessarily detracts focus from the first thing. That's how focus works. The focus of the show was intended to be Marty and Rust. Why isn't that enough?

Like, I understand in principle that poorly developed characters with no arc can be a problem, but doesn't that depend immensely on who the characters are and their positioning in the work? Peripheral characters have to exist. Something isn't badly written (or even mildly weak) just by virtue of their being peripheral.
I never said they need to be equally developed. I also never implied that. Nor did I imply characters should be removed.

Yes, there are ancillary and tertiary characters. Yes, ideally, they should have development and personalities to varying degrees. The fact that not a single character aside from Rust and Marty had any development is the problem. Great writers strike the balance all the time.

For instance, Rectify had more character development in six episodes than True Detective fit into eight. I bring up that show specifically because there is a spiritual relation between the two.

If you want to talk about some of the frequently named "best shows in history," you're generally talking about Breaking Bad, Deadwood, Mad Men, The Sopranos, and The Wire. All of which were shows with focus, but also with a great balance of development among the principals and supporting characters.

The show could have turned Maggie into something other than a vaginal device and not detracted from the two main characters or the plot. There was plenty of screen time for her, yet she was nothing more than a cliché. And season two is further proving Pizzolatto's inability to write women well.

The show could have done more with Gilbough and Papania. There was plenty of screen time.
 

GungHo

Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
Can someone tell me WTF was the point of this episode?

Bad, just bad!

The point was to educate you plebes that Conway Twitty is not Elvis.

Dialogue delivery is shit or the sound mixing is shit. Can't even understand half the time what they are saying. Fuck this show.
My grandmother was convinced that CBS was out to get her because actors kept whispering on her soap operas.

I look forward to the Log Lady.
 
This season has made me realize that Vince Vaughn has no range as an actor. His mannerism, delivery, all the same in virtually every single one of his films. I don't see a villain; I see the wedding crasher trying to act hard.
 
The show could have turned Maggie into something other than a vaginal device and not detracted from the two main characters or the plot.
The one time Maggie was actually a "vaginal device," it was her willing choice.

We also got to see why she did it (at her wits end with the cheating, lies, and the farce of Marty), why she knew it would work (because she understood the dynamic with his partner), and why she came to regret it (Rust didn't deserve the isolation it caused).

She added yet another layer of complexity to Rust and Marty. She justified the lengthy span of the story as much as the killings. Her questioning scenes cemented that she still cared about both men, even having "moved on," and she still put her neck out by lying for them.

For a story about a couple of broken men slash detectives investigating the occult in Louisiana, and a killer who commits incest regularly, Maggie's depiction was stoic and vital in understanding both men further.
 

xezuru

Member
Season one was all about Rust and Marty obviously, but the third main character was the setting of the rural god forsaken parts of Louisiana that they were in. I mean this is exactly what I feel and love in like SuperGiant games. One of the towns I grew up in till like age 7 was a sub-10k population dead end town, and I could feel little glimmers of that, along with it's own unique Louisiana taste, culture, and occult.

In contrast, Season 2 seems like it's going all over generic California, we never stay in one place, and even though we're told about Vinci as a deadbeat town and Frank trying to raise up new shit following the rail line, all we're actually shown is basically more generic California without any real taste, clubs and street shots without anything interesting filling the world, and I don't even know if we've ever even been directly in Vinci besides the PD because everything looks like the same ass California, and that's a problem.

Meanwhile, it can be argued that that's not the focus, and that's fair, now they have 4 main characters to focus on, Frank whom in my opinion has still flatly acted all his way up to "I want to go back to being a thug for my money" plot, Knifelord whom so far has an I hate my family but look at my sex and knife shit subplot, Colin's kid-not-kid and struggling with pretty much everything in life, and I don't know his name's struggling with his struggling to be not be homosexual subplot.

Honestly, on a base level most of the themes in the story are already generic, all I'm enjoying so far is the Colin mustache's sideplot and pretty much every scene he's in. Likewise, I'm enjoying Knifelord's portrayal even though so far her actual sideplot is whatever, everything else I really could not give a shit about and every sprinkle they give is barely one full percentage of something given from it's predecessor (ala Sopranos or whatever). I'm still watching and enjoying especially for Farrel's stuff, but this is the half way point and so far there's very little about this season if anything at all to remember it 10 years from now, and while season 1 was slow to start, it piqued my interest as something unique very quick.
 

Grinchy

Banned
I was ready to give Vaughn a chance. I really tried to like him in the first episode, but now, I just have to agree that he's the weakest one on the show. His wife might be the second weakest.
 
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