• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Turkish Referendum |OT| ...With a Thunderous Applause

Status
Not open for further replies.
Also it's worth mentioning that AKP is currently planning in offering the syrians refugees the citizenship, and the so-called "left" is against that.

Politics in Turkey are complicated.
 

Ac30

Member
I am interested in the actual constitution proposition, and calling it a dictatorship is just nonsense. Yes it's a centralization of power and a great shift toward a presidential system.People is saying that Erdogan would establish a sultanat next week since 2010, i don't buy that and i really don't think that the Turkish people would accept that.

I am not interested in a power grab, and i don't support it. I support however the limitation of the role of the military in Turkey and erasing the Ataturk legacy (authoritarian secularism, ethnic nationalism and military rule). I used to think that AKP will bring that, and it was very close to do that before the Syrian crisis, but now i see that they are going toward others dynamics. However i recognize that some discriminatory laws against women wearing the hijab were removed and i am glad.

The slow creep is designed that way; people would riot if he declared himself Sultan or whatever nonsense he prefers. He's destroyed the independent media and neutered the opposition, jailed activists and purged the courts. Now he's giving himself extraordinary powers and extended terms. Your country is crawling to one party state for all the reasons I listed in my earlier reply.

It's fine to disagree, but I firmly believe that giving more power to one person is never good, hence why I will always support the abolition of executive presidencies. I'm glad you're against the referendum.
 
The slow creep is designed that way; people would riot if he declared himself Sultan or whatever nonsense he prefers. He's destroyed the independent media and neutered the opposition, jailed activists and purged the courts. Now he's giving himself extraordinary powers and extended terms. Your country is crawling to one party state for all the reasons I listed in my earlier reply.

My country ? I am not Turkish.

I know all that and i don't agree with it one bit. But i doubt most of the democratic sentiment in Turkey is sincere, just go check what were the reaction here when the military was storming the turkish parliament last summer.
 
Even if it was the same why the hell would you want to emulate the US system? Americans wish they had a system more like Turkey's.

I don't want to emulate the US system but i understand why some turks could want something like that in such hard time. I mean, they have to face PKK, ISIS, Assad and Iran. I understand why they would be happy if the president can call an emergency state without approval of the congress.
 

Ac30

Member
My country ? I am not Turkish.

I know all that and i don't agree with it one bit. But i doubt most of the democratic sentiment in Turkey is sincere, just go check what were the reaction here when the military was storming the turkish parliament last summer.

It is from me - watching Turkey's slow slide into nationalist authoritarianism is just as disappointing as watching Donald Trump drag America into a modern rendition of the 50s. I learned a little more about the history of coups in Turkey and the heroic actions of the Turkish populace are commendable, but Erdogan is clearly milking the coup attempt for political gain. Either way civilian control of the military was certainly needed so I'm glad someone finally accomplished that.
 

KDR_11k

Member
I don't want to emulate the US system but i understand why some turks could want something like that in such hard time. I mean, they have to face PKK, ISIS, Assad and Iran. I understand why they would be happy if the president can call an emergency state without approval of the congress.

People like a dictator as long as he does what they want to do. They should ask themselves what it'll be like if the next president doesn't match their own preferences.
 

-Plasma Reus-

Service guarantees member status
Also it's worth mentioning that AKP is currently planning in offering the syrians refugees the citizenship, and the so-called "left" is against that.

Politics in Turkey are complicated.
The 'left' in Turkey isn't really left. It's more concerned with wanting to be seen as European and western than caring for progressive values​.
 
I was hoping they'd at least murder erdogan.

Are you aware that it would be far worst ? Even if you hate the guy, making him a martyr could really trigger a regime change, like in Venezuela with Chavez.

Again, supporting a putschist army the legitimate head of state is not caring for democracy. I highly dislike Trump, but i won't be happy if the military kicked him out and take over. Even bad legitimate president is better than a military takeover. The current situation in Turkey (especially before 2016) is an open system with element of authoritarianism. Letting the army take over is totally closing the system.
 
It is from me - watching Turkey's slow slide into nationalist authoritarianism is just as disappointing as watching Donald Trump drag America into a modern rendition of the 50s. I learned a little more about the history of coups in Turkey and the heroic actions of the Turkish populace are commendable, but Erdogan is clearly milking the coup attempt for political gain. Either way civilian control of the military was certainly needed so I'm glad someone finally accomplished that.

I commend you for that.

People like a dictator as long as he does what they want to do. They should ask themselves what it'll be like if the next president doesn't match their own preferences.

Yep, i think the issue is the same in the fifth republic. Maybe strong leadership was needed in the cold war with De Gaulle, but now we have all sort of law going above the parliament because of this.

The 'left' in Turkey isn't really left. It's more concerned with wanting to be seen as European and western than caring for progressive values​.

Exactly, and it's also have a strong xenophobic and nationalist component. If i remember correctly, the newspaper of the CHP use to have a motto praising the turkish race in the front page.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
Also it's worth mentioning that AKP is currently planning in offering the syrians refugees the citizenship, and the so-called "left" is against that.

Politics in Turkey are complicated.

It's a ploy to get AKP votes. If Erdogan cared about Syrian refugees he wouldn't be producing them by the millions in his invasion of Syria and support for extremist groups tearing the country apart.
 

mo60

Member
Now that I thought about it for a bit I want the no vote to win by like over 10 percent to see erdogan's reaction to that because it would definitely be worse then no winning by a small amount.
 
Here's hoping that the referendum will be free and without manipulation by Erdogan and the AKP and that the people vote for the only right Option. The Last Thing everyone needs right now is another Putin but with even less self-control and who escalated the conflicts in Syria (cough, weapons for ISIS) and against the Kurds.
 
I watched Erdogan's speech last Friday, he said: "Those who vote no would align themselves with Fethullah Gülen (the man they accuse of planning the failed coup), and don't forget that prophet Mohammed said people will be aligned with whom they like come judgement day".

Basically if you vote no you are a traitor + going to hell.
 
Embarrassingly I couldn't vote because I didn't register my voting location as London.

I'm in Turkey at the moment and thought I could vote at the Airport, but you also need to register for that.

Only possible way for me is to vote in the Istanbul district I am registered to, but I'm in Antalya on the opposite side of the country.

Oh well lesson learned. Don't talk big about Turkish politics and then not fully research how you vote. Lesson learned.

I am cautiously optimistic than No will win.

The 'left' in Turkey isn't really left. It's more concerned with wanting to be seen as European and western than caring for progressive values​.
Yes. Turkey is right wing or right wing. Right Wing Islamist VS Right Wing Secularist Nationalist.

The left in Turkey is very very marginal and unfortunately overlaps with Extremist Leftist terrorist groups and PKK. It is America's meddling in Turkey back in the Cold War that killed the Turkish Left.
 
Are you aware that it would be far worst ? Even if you hate the guy, making him a martyr could really trigger a regime change, like in Venezuela with Chavez.

Again, supporting a putschist army the legitimate head of state is not caring for democracy. I highly dislike Trump, but i won't be happy if the military kicked him out and take over. Even bad legitimate president is better than a military takeover. The current situation in Turkey (especially before 2016) is an open system with element of authoritarianism. Letting the army take over is totally closing the system.
It's not even about caring for democracy, that ship is about to sail anyways, I simply consider Erdogan a danger to his people, to my people and international relations.

Sure a military dictatorship is no better but a military coup to restore democratic functions is not categorically bad either, in fact successful coups generally said improve democracy.

If Trump moves to consolidate power to his position I wouldn't be sad to see him die either. He's killing a ton of people literally and through his ridiculous policies.
 

mo60

Member
I watched Erdogan's speech last Friday, he said: "Those who vote no would align themselves with Fethullah Gülen (the man they accuse of planning the failed coup), and don't forget that prophet Mohammed said people will be aligned with whom they like come judgement day".

Basically if you vote no you are a traitor + going to hell.

He has said similar things in the past. Erdogan has been talking about Gulen for years now.
 

Ac30

Member
It's not even about caring for democracy, that ship is about to sail anyways, I simply consider Erdogan a danger to his people, to my people and international relations.

Sure a military dictatorship is no better but a military coup to restore democratic functions is not categorically bad either, in fact successful coups generally said improve democracy.

If Trump moves to amass power to his position I wouldn't be sad to see him die either. He's killing a ton of people literally and through his ridiculous policies.

Two of the latest, in Egypt and Thailand, deposed democratically elected government. Were they shit government? Yes, but they were the people's shit governments. You can't vote the army out. I can't remember a coup in recent memory that actually turned out well.
 

oti

Banned
I watched Erdogan's speech last Friday, he said: "Those who vote no would align themselves with Fethullah Gülen (the man they accuse of planning the failed coup), and don't forget that prophet Mohammed said people will be aligned with whom they like come judgement day".

Basically if you vote no you are a traitor + going to hell.

Casual reminder that Erdogan as President wasn't even allowed to take a public position in this referendum. But who cares about the law anyway.
 

Kerensky

Banned
Personally, i think that the constitutional changes are beneficial to turkey in the long run as it would enable turkey to go all in on Erdogan's neo-ottomanic ambition.

Geopolitically, they have stacked the deck in their favor with not one but two former territories (syria and perhaps armenia if they get support from Azerbajian) weakened and ripe for annexation.
They also have NATO to call in if their own army can't handle it, a powerful instrument indeed.
Aside from that they have the support of western europe wherether they like it or not due to the concentrations of diaspora either as their fifth column and in their governments.
Their only complications would be greece and their neighbors to the west, but as it stands now there is little that stops Turkey from become a member of the EU and tap into their markets as well.

Of course this is all conjecture, but it's hard to deny that Erdogan's ambitions are going exactly as planned.
 
I really hope that the Turkish people do the right thing and vote No, but I'm very sceptical. Seems like Turkey is already set to go down the road of dictatorship.
 

spekkeh

Banned
Also voted NO! I wonder if there is even a TurkGaf member who voted YES?
On GAF, your country is shit and you better deal with it. I doubt many open Erdogan supporters would last very long without getting banned, same as Trump, Le Pen, Wilders, etc.
 

Ac30

Member
On GAF, your country is shit and you better deal with it. I doubt many open Erdogan supporters would last very long without getting banned, same as Trump, Le Pen, Wilders, etc.

GAF doesn't ban people for supporting LePen/Trump.
 

Simplet

Member
Personally, i think that the constitutional changes are beneficial to turkey in the long run as it would enable turkey to go all in on Erdogan's neo-ottomanic ambition.

Geopolitically, they have stacked the deck in their favor with not one but two former territories (syria and perhaps armenia if they get support from Azerbajian) weakened and ripe for annexation.
They also have NATO to call in if their own army can't handle it, a powerful instrument indeed.
Aside from that they have the support of western europe wherether they like it or not due to the concentrations of diaspora either as their fifth column and in their governments.
Their only complications would be greece and their neighbors to the west, but as it stands now there is little that stops Turkey from become a member of the EU and tap into their markets as well.

Of course this is all conjecture, but it's hard to deny that Erdogan's ambitions are going exactly as planned.

The world must be so weird seen through Russian eyes. Turkey will call on NATO and the EU to invade and annex Armenia? Come again?
 

Kerensky

Banned
The world must be so weird seen through Russian eyes. Turkey will call on NATO and the EU to invade and annex Armenia? Come again?

To defend them if their plan would ever backfire, that's NATO's obligation by treaty.

There's also the EU who have to appease the turkish diaspora within their borders, as the NL-turkey crisis has shown, they can and -will- cause unrest if the EU would intervene against Erdogan.
 

cameron

Member
The PR/messaging for EVET is hard to beat. Promises of increased stability/security, better infrastructure/economy, religious freedom, and totes not authoritarianism.



The fact that it polls close makes me hope it will fail even if that seems unlikely. I hope for the best for all of you and that this doesn't become another in a long line of mistakes made in the past year :/

There is some hope, although fleeting, that the "no" camp is less vocal in certain parts of Turkey for personal safety reasons, which would skew the apparent support towards "yes".

Patrick Kingsley, NYT's correspondent in Turkey:
Walking the streets of Istanbul, support for the 'yes' side is very prominent in the many posters and signs posted on walls and windows. Less obvious are signs from the opposition.

"There is a huge amount of pressure on people who are campaigning against the expansion of [the president's] powers," says Kingsley.

He describes interviewing people who say they have been shot at for putting up 'no' posters. Others have been beaten up for campaigning against the proposals.

Polls in Turkey suggest that at least 40 per cent of the population are on the 'no' side, but their posters are few and far between.

"Clearly people are either afraid or they've not been able to put up 'no' posters and 'no' banners, and that tells its own story about the fairness of the campaign," says Kingsley.
 

Zatoth

Member
I am sure giving the guy who illegally built himself a palace in a wildlife sanctuary more power is a great idea.
 
Glad to see there's a thread for this.

I become 18 in September, so I could not vote. Parents just came back from casting their votes, though.

Don't really have much hope for the future of the country, or for this referandum. It's a losing battle at this point. Counting the months until I graduate in 2018 and go abroad for university. Don't plan on coming back before I'm placed in a coffin. I'm worried about friends and family, however.

Honestly I've resigned to just wishing to get today over with so that I can stop seeing Yes posters fucking EVERYWHERE. It wasn't nearly this bad even after the coup attempt with a single poster being plastered everywhere for months.
 

Several years ago, they tried to handwave allegations of cheating and vote stealing by claiming that cats had entered the local transformers. They seriously did.

This shit? Nothing is going to happen. The video will circulate, no one will care, all those votes will be counted and we'll be hearing Erdoğan scream about Allah's grace and Europe's evil intentions and national will.

I just read about that. Wow. Also I don't want Erdogan in power until 2029 at this point.

I was born in 1999. Erdoğan came into power in 2002. I've lived all of my conscious life under his rule. And now he's more than likely going to dominate my country until I am 30 years old.
 

Donos

Member
Even if in reality erdogan doesn't win, i doubt the "official" result will be anything but a victory for him...

But let's keep feeding turkey EU entry preparation money in the millions although it's clear they are as far away from joining the EU as Russia is...
 

Diancecht

Member
I just read about that. Wow. Also I don't want Erdogan in power until 2029 at this point.



Someone premarked a bunch of ballots with evet?Wow that is insane.

They are trying to discourage No people from voting by reinforcing the idea that Yes will win no matter what. Legally or illegally.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom