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TV's Vs Monitors, and Why TV's Make Much More Sense for Next Gen Consoles
HeisenbergFX4
Member
nomad171
Neo Member
Man, what a wonderful post you made there! You sum it up in a very elegant way! Thanks a lot for your amazing, thoughtful post and hope new buyers find it useful in their decision! Glad to have you here, bro
Thanks Bo, really appreciate to hear that from you! I recon that there is a lot of text but who knows, maybe it will help someone to make a decision.
If you are not afraid of burn-in, go for it. I mean, even in the worst case scenario you will not see any significant changes to the panel from burn-in before the 1.5-2 years, as realistic tests show. If you are still deliberating, check the extended warranty that your retailer can offer, and ask specifically if burn-in is covered.
nomad171
Neo Member
Completely agree. Well, to be fair, he got it right about the ABL - this has been found by RTINGS as well (just the difference is not so drastic), but all the rest is so exaggerated. Especially 40Gbps. 40.1 Gbps is just enough for 4:4:4 4k/120 10-bit HDR. To be honest, there are even no sources at the moment that can deliver such output. Maybe we will see some meaningful tests after 3xxx Nvidias going to be released.
HeisenbergFX4
Member
Saw that video and the thing about tech lately is there is always something that might be worth waiting for.
If this was micro LED then yeah all in on waiting and maybe this pans out to be the next great thing.
But I am quite happy with the 900H even with its flaws (when comparing to a C9)
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Yeah it's strange to me that he makes it sound like microLED? Not sure if Sony is willing to push their Crystal LED (their version of microLED) any sooner, it's insultingly expensive at the moment with their module philosophy that only fits rich and big companies. It's so insane that they can use it in movie making setup background!
Bruno_Arrais85
Member
The X900H is an amazing TV.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Getting one myself! I think it'll be Sony's most successful TV across 2020/2021, especially if smartly bundled with PS5. XH80 can be bundled as a low budget TV with insane input lag performance as well starting at 43" sizes. If I had millions in my bank account I would get this one:
The official trailer of the tech:
Do you have one X900H? And if, what size?
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EverydayBeast
ChatGPT 0.1
You gotta be careful buying HDR vs UHD TVs.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
You mean people getting confused between the two abbreviations? Yup, UHD is just 4K. But such confusing is not represented in HDMI 2.1 TV's as they all have HDR, but lacking Dolby Vision can be worrying as both consoles should support that over HDR10+ along with the older form of HDR10.
rsouzadk
Member
I hope this helps!
Many people get confused between response time and input lag, and most people think that monitors have a massive edge over TV's, which is totally false.
Here are the tests, and please note that most of these are 1080p and 1440p, aren't even 4K! 4K is 4x times 1080p, and they rarely have HDR or quality image processing. Look at native resolution @ 60Hz and VRR@60Hz. They are pretty damn similar/close in input lag, and even many TV's are beating monitors as well:
And now TV's
TV's generally offer superior image quality at 4K@60Hz or even 4K@120Hz, VRR, ALLM, eARC with HDMI 2.1. Now let's take a look at a low budget 4K HDR TV, Sony X800H (XH80), with only HDMI 2.0! It has a 43" size for people with tight spaces:
And a high-end, considered as the best TV for gaming to some, the LG CX (although it's 40Gbps not 48Gbps compared to previous C9)
4K is 4x times 1080p quality, if you're still watching 4K content on a 1080p screen then you're only recieving a maximum of 25% of the actually image quality. Probably that's why many are confused with next gen games.
My personal advice? If you're into OLED's, go for LG C9 (and CX but has 40Gbps instead of 48Gbps). For LCD LED, "wait" for Sony XH90 (X900H) reviews. Both seem to be the prime HDMI 2.1 options.
There are plenty of good tv's out there, those are my very short list of my personal best possible TV's for next gen gaming. A low/medium budget 4K HDR with only HDMI 2.0 will still be a massive upgrade over 1080p. Try watching as much reviews from experts as possible to make up your mind.
Reference:
www.rtings.com
EDIT:
A wonderful guide of all the TV's offering HDMI 2.1. But be careful as features and specs of HDMI 2.1 isn't supported in all of them (4K@120Hz, VRR, ALLM, eARC):
▶ HDMI 2.1 TVs:
LG: C9, G9, W9, Z9, CX, GX, WX, XZ + 2020 NanoCell TVs.
Samsung: Q70T, Q80T, Q90T, Q90R, Q95T, Q800T, Q900TS, Q950TS
Sony: Z8H, X900H
Other: TCL & Vizio and more brands are adding HDMI 2.1 TVs this year.
Copied from the description of this video:
And another one, timestamped about gaming, but better watch the whole thing (NOTE: Sony X900H starts at $999 for 55", not $1400)
Wonderful review for potential LG CX (C9) buyers:
More about HDMI 2.1 vs 2.0 cables, so you don't overpay for BS, I personally paid around 16 OMR ($41.6 USD) for 5 meters golden HDMI 2.0, didn't find something cheaper at that shop:
An extremely detailed video from a Sony professional explaining in depth and easy language and graphs many tv techs, among them Sony's insane Motionflow XR 240Hz (X-Motion Clarity upgrade above that on X900H and higher), Triluminos Display color depth, and lots of other things including HDMI 2.1 for gaming: (15:51 for X900H specifically)
You have a very tight budget for $600-1000 max? Don't worry, check this amazing video, and note that prices are changing the more we go to the end of 2020 or early 2021 for best deals:
Thanks to @Jigga117 for sharing this that should let you understand the requirments of each resolution/framerates/color depth:
Participants in this thread with first hand experience/owners of the best next gen options which support full features of HDMI 2.1 (4K@120Hz, ALLM, VRR, eARC):
LG CX: @Nerd Strangler (48")
-----
LG C9: @NeoIkaruGAF (55") + @Rbk_3 (??) +HeisenbergFX4 (77") + @n0razi (65") +
nomad171 (55")
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Sony X900H (XH90):S0ULZB0URNE (65") + @McHuj (85")
4ms vs 14ms is massive for inputlag.
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Ulysses 31
Member
For CSGO pro players perhaps. Try counting to a 100 in one second, you ain't gonna notice 1 extra count in one second.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
If you pay a closer look though, Samsung Q80T is already doing 5.3ms at 1440p@120Hz.
But for competitive PC gaming it's always performance > quality, but PC traditional setup/stance with PC shooters is always preferable to precise human "responsiveness or input lag" to what's happening.
As for console and varied gaming, TV's have much more value and picture quality with insane input lags as well.
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rsouzadk
Member
No no.. for sure there are games in competitive scene that benefit the most, but mostly, there are games that are sensitive to input lag, like plataformers, shooters, racing games, sport games like fifa, br games, etc. 4ms vs 14ms is massive.
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HeisenbergFX4
Member
Early access is up for the 900H if anyone is an Insider there:
www.rtings.com
Sony X900H Review (XBR55X900H, XBR65X900H, XBR75X900H, XBR85X900H)
The Sony X900H, also sold as the X90CH at Costco, is a great 4k TV for nearly any type of content. It has a VA panel with an excellent contrast ratio and a full-...
www.rtings.com
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Early access is up for the 900H if anyone is an Insider there:
Sony X900H Review (XBR55X900H, XBR65X900H, XBR75X900H, XBR85X900H)
The Sony X900H, also sold as the X90CH at Costco, is a great 4k TV for nearly any type of content. It has a VA panel with an excellent contrast ratio and a full-...
Most reviews now are still like 50% of full potential reviews we're eager to know about, HDMI 2.1 capabilities. But it's always nice to hear more about it.
HeisenbergFX4
Member
RTINGS setting for review:
Futurematic
Member
Anyone have the Hisense H8G? I just want a cheap but solid 4K TV for PS5 until I go OLED in a few years.
I’m in no rush, so maybe the TCL 2020 5 or 6 series? Quality control between the two brands?
I’m in no rush, so maybe the TCL 2020 5 or 6 series? Quality control between the two brands?
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HeisenbergFX4
Member
Seems RTINGS giving the 900H an 8 overall
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
You aren't buying a 4K/HDR Monitor with 4ms input lag with 4K/HDR.
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
Guy is a clown.
Kerotan
Member
I've a 49" x900F and it's majestic.
This coming CES will be massive for next gen. I expect the big players to come guns blazing. I also wonder if Sony will announce their latest range before the ps5 launch or wait until January as usual.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
H8G seems like a decent tv, and about TCL 6-series from last year I know one happy owner, it's
Gamernyc78
but he's banned at the moment, he was happy with the previous TCL 6-Series. But what's your budget range? I think Sony X900H 55" will reach around $700-800 around PS5 release or Black Friday.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Sweet! The good thing in Sony TV's you can copy pro calibrations of others. My 2016 old Sony DX70 has that as well.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Now I understand that 4ms he's referring to, it's response time not input lag! LG C9 has 1ms response time, 4x faster, but input lag is the final product that we need to care about and the schedules in the OP show how monitors are lacking actually. Anyway, someone still interested in monitors should look into this:
xacto
It's most likely using 8-bit panel, and it's a big downgrade from 10-bit panels in current tv's, especially QNED coming next year are going for insanely high 12-bit panels.
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HeisenbergFX4
Member
Bo_Hazem
Sorry if this review has been posted just found it myself.
Sony X900H 4K HDR TV review | Stunning Value | Digital Trends
Sony's X900 series TVs have long been revered for their premium quality and relatively approachable price points. The X900H is no exception.
www.digitaltrends.com
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Sony X900H 4K HDR TV review | Stunning Value | Digital Trends
Sony's X900 series TVs have long been revered for their premium quality and relatively approachable price points. The X900H is no exception.
Wonderful review, some parts of it:
A quick note related to the above. I asked Sony why it was that this TV hadn’t been updated to support VRR yet, or why it isn’t supported right out of the box. Sony’s response boils down to standards. As a partner with the CTA, NAB, and various other standards organization, Sony prefers to see all standards testing completed before it deploys a new technology like HDMI 2.1 or any of the features with which it comes. Sony cites a consistent, stable experience as being very important to its customers.
+
Contrast, which is the most noticeable element of picture quality, is based on black levels. The darker a TV can get, the higher the contrast and the less brightness is needed to achieve high contrast. One of the reasons that X900H excels is that it has very good black levels. That is owed to Sony’s backlighting system.
+
An LCD screen is lit up from behind by an array of LED backlights. In order to keep black levels from turning gray, the backlight system must be carefully controlled. That control, which includes various zones — or groups — of lights is called local dimming, and that local dimming is powered by an algorithm. I’ve said it before, but it bears repeating: Sony has the best local dimming algorithm in the business.
+
Beyond those core picture elements, Sony’s X1 processor delivered a very clean picture, even with low bitrate content streamed from sites like Netflix and Hulu. I witnessed minimized contouring and color banding while watching. The performance of the upscaling and other processing elements exceeded the Hisense H8G Quantum I’m currently evaluating, and was as good and even better in some cases than the Samsung Q90T.
+
This came as no surprise, as Sony’s processing has always been the best in the business. Also of no surprise was the cleanliness of the VA panel, which exhibited no dirty screen effect (DSE) or blotchiness.
VisualFidelity
Member
Any 32" tvs out there that could be good monitors? I just bought a e9 but decided I wont game on it. Movies only to make it last longer. Ideally looking for a 1440p 144hz/120hz
Bo_Hazem
Banned
I think it's hard to find any good tv at that size, most mid to top tier tv's are usually starting at 55". But for monitors, I would say most monitors right now are below low tier tv's in terms of picture quality, and most of them aren't even 10-bit. It's safer to wait for another year if you wanna see something worth spending the money on for that size, and it would be a monitor indeed not a tv.
TheShocker
Member
I just bought a 2019 Samsung Q70R. I upgraded from a RU8000. Over all image quality is better but I noticed some horrible inverse ghosting when running 4k@60Hz with VRR and HDR enabled. It was annoying to the point I was going to return the TV. I started messing with some setting in my X1X and started running it at 1440p@120hz. I lose HDR but I get a smoother experience in all games. Natively rendered 4k games still look great, some even better, with super sampling.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
One guy talked about that, he just bought Sony X900H and was talking about the ghosting effect on Q70T/Q70R (not sure). I don't remember experiencing that or even understanding 100% what it means, but is it like the Plasma days that you see some trail of a moving object/character?
Some say that there is like an update for that, not sure about it. Your input is very appreciated.
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MeatSafeMurderer
Member
Yup, it's because of slow pixel response times. Pixels don't change instantly and If they're slow enough it causes a visible "trail" as pixels fail to change to their intended values over the course of multiple refreshes. This is a large part of the reason TN panels are still common in gaming monitors, TN has the lowest response times (although IPS is getting close). TVs often have VA panels though because they boast better contrast, which still lag behind considerably and are notorious for their especially slow response times when coming from black, causing NASTY ghosting.
Edit: Also inverse ghosting is a result of overdriving the pixels to get them to change faster, and overshooting the target. It looks just as nasty...actually worse.
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Futurematic
Member
It is irritating that quality small TVs don’t have the features of cheap 55” TVs.
. I’m aiming to buy a 4K for whatever a PS5 and accessories costs, probably ~$800 CAD counting taxes
The Hisense 55Q8G is $900 CAD, on sale for $650 right now so should be the same Black Friday. The TCL 6 series should be $900-1000 (55”, the 65” 2020 R635 is $1300 at Best Buy Canada preorder), so a similar MSRP but likely less discounted because they’re launching October—note that Canada never even got most 2019 TCL models so no R625 up here for a last year model deal. Theoretically the R635 has mini-LED backlighting, 120hz, and HDMI 2.1 which would make it the ultimate cheap PS5 screen
Shrug. Wait for Black Friday and hope it is!
Canadian, so it certainly will not! Lol
. I’m aiming to buy a 4K for whatever a PS5 and accessories costs, probably ~$800 CAD counting taxesThe Hisense 55Q8G is $900 CAD, on sale for $650 right now so should be the same Black Friday. The TCL 6 series should be $900-1000 (55”, the 65” 2020 R635 is $1300 at Best Buy Canada preorder), so a similar MSRP but likely less discounted because they’re launching October—note that Canada never even got most 2019 TCL models so no R625 up here for a last year model deal. Theoretically the R635 has mini-LED backlighting, 120hz, and HDMI 2.1 which would make it the ultimate cheap PS5 screen
Shrug. Wait for Black Friday and hope it is!
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
It is irritating that quality small TVs don’t have the features of cheap 55” TVs.
Canadian, so it certainly will not! Lol
The Hisense 55Q8G is $900 CAD, on sale for $650 right now so should be the same Black Friday. The TCL 6 series should be $900-1000 (55”, the 65” 2020 R635 is $1300 at Best Buy Canada preorder), so a similar MSRP but likely less discounted because they’re launching October—note that Canada never even got most 2019 TCL models so no R625 up here for a last year model deal. Theoretically the R635 has mini-LED backlighting and HDMI 2.1 which would make it the ultimate cheap PS5 screen
Shrug. Wait for Black Friday and hope it is!
Black Friday gonna be funny this time around with COVID though, be careful
Thanks for breaking that down! I don't recall seeing that since the plasma era.
MeatSafeMurderer
Member
It's a lot less apparent than it used to be even on LCD panels, let alone plasmas. Even less so since overdriving became common place. It's more of a problem at high-refresh rates, where the window of time a pixel has to reach its target is significantly smaller. However VA's smearing of dark shades is often rather visible even at 60Hz, it's just a case of how sensitive you are to it. I have an old Samsung from ~2010 that has atrocious VA dark level ghosting. Once I saw it I could never unsee it.
Bruno_Arrais85
Member
Yes I have the X900H 75. The input lag is really great and the contrast is above the more expensive X950H.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
I think most new tv's shouldn't have it though, I've never experienced it on my 2016 4K HDR Sony DX70 55", but it's IPS and no local dimming. As the guy here said it's not apparent on the X900H:
Sweet! I should join the gang later.
MeatSafeMurderer
Member
All displays have it to some extent, it's just how noticable it is and how sensitive you are to it. My monitor is IPS and rated at 60Hz and ghosting isn't terribly noticable at that...however I have mine overclocked to 84Hz and the ghosting is a little more noticable (but still by no means a problem). IMO he's also not using the best game for that kind of testing, MW has temporal anti-aliasing which inherently has ghosting of its own.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
A very nice review, casually yet informative, and kinda funny as well. I find it very useful, and agree with the fact that there is no perfect tv out there:
I remember slight ghosting with my older 2015 LG 4K LCD, along with judder when gaming at 30fps. I think every brand strikes it differently? And OLED should not have any of that, as I understand. I don't really notice ghosting in my current Sony X700D (XD70). Personally, thought ghosting has been part of the past, I was surprised about it being an issue in some models.
I remember slight ghosting with my older 2015 LG 4K LCD, along with judder when gaming at 30fps. I think every brand strikes it differently? And OLED should not have any of that, as I understand. I don't really notice ghosting in my current Sony X700D (XD70). Personally, thought ghosting has been part of the past, I was surprised about it being an issue in some models.
MeatSafeMurderer
Member
OLED is better, but it's not quite a CRT. It's kind of inherent to the sample and hold technique used by modern displays because your eyes themselves can blur between frames, so even if the pixels do respond instantly there can still be the appearance of ghosting (even if the display itself isn't actually generating any). At that point we're kind of being pedantic though, since it's not the display's fault human eyes are kind of shit.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Yup, that when you use those unnecessary nits in a dark room.
I usually set my tv to auto brightness and the sensor adjusts according to the light in the room. This light theme in NeoGAF before using it used to melt my eyes.
Come On Tars
Member
Snagged a Sony X90ch 85" (900h) at Costco other day. Still haven't taken it out of the box. It's huge and I need help. Maybe I'll hook my pc up to it for giggles.
TheShocker
Member
My set has the most current firmware being pushed out by Samsung. It’s rumored that a new update will be out this month, but I’m not sure what’s in it.
It is worse. Overdriving the pixes causes a greenish-purple trail that is worse than any other motion problems I’ve ever encountered. I believe it’s a firmware issue in the way Samsung handles their freesync options. It’s too wide of a range for the tv to handle.
VisualFidelity
Member
Who tha fook wants a 48" screen as a monitor? If you sit at a desk, it makes no sense. Lets just say TVs are finally catching up to monitors in regards to lag and motion, but at the end of the day a monitor and tv serve different purposes.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
You're making me jealous now, lol. I wanna join the big boys with a 85" as well, then sit 2-2.5 meters away.
Found crazier people as well on youtube doing the same!Great, if you have that new update and you notice the ghosting gone away let us updated, some might be considering Q70T that's similar in performance/issue with that ghosting as that guy on youtube saying. But is it happening with PC gaming or console? You know with the mouse you can turn ridiculously fast!
Fair enough. For now, most monitors aren't worth the money. I would suggest waiting for another year. Most of them are 8-bit panels, then when you find a 10-bit panel it's a 60Hz and HDMI 2.0.