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Twitter Death Watch |OT| How long until the bird dies?

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Kraz

Banned
Youtube banned anti-covid Vax talk. As did all major social media sites. Kinda proving my point.
This seems predicated on the thinking these are wanted by the general population. Many were banned for their predatory quality against vulnerable groups in the general population for a variety of reasons. From the predatory nature it seem more likely those, like others of their quality and in the Venn, would fizzle out rather than fester. There's also lots of early early adopters and stubborn people with strong biases who aren't risk averse that will eventually concede to evidence.
There wouldn't be the cover of people to make them appear legit and normalize even if shunned or the costbenefit to offset the presence.
 

FunkMiller

Member
Youtube banned anti-covid Vax talk. As did all major social media sites. Kinda proving my point.

They really, really didn't. Go type in 'covid vaccine kills' in Youtube search.

I literally posted a tweet advertising an anti-vax video to you - which started this entire discussion.

And to swing it back around to the salient point here:

Twitter under Musk will only succeed as a mainstream social media platform moving forward, if it is seen to crack down on lies and misinformation spread by lunatic conspiracy theorists. We can have a discussion about what should be allowed or not until we're blue in the face, but the fact is he'll kill Twitter if he allows free rein, because major advertisers won't have any of it. Musk isn't that stupid, so I look forward to some fairly stringent guidelines coming along in the next few weeks, when he gets it all sorted out.
 
I don't think the problem has ever been people believing nonsense.. The problem with Twitter, social media and well the internet as a whole is. The availability of questionable information presented in a way that appears factual. How that kind of suspect information can become main stream if left unchecked, and cause disruption in the regular discourse along with making suckers of the less educated.

Like telling everyone that vaccines stop the spread.
 

Moneal

Member
They really, really didn't. Go type in 'covid vaccine kills' in Youtube search.

I literally posted a tweet advertising an anti-vax video to you - which started this entire discussion.

And to swing it back around to the salient point here:

Twitter under Musk will only succeed as a mainstream social media platform moving forward, if it is seen to crack down on lies and misinformation spread by lunatic conspiracy theorists. We can have a discussion about what should be allowed or not until we're blue in the face, but the fact is he'll kill Twitter if he allows free rein, because major advertisers won't have any of it. Musk isn't that stupid, so I look forward to some fairly stringent guidelines coming along in the next few weeks, when he gets it all sorted out.
Most of the banning stuff happened early. Now they removed the covid stuff from the tos.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Even the monstrous GSK and J&J will stop advertising their wares on Twitter, if it becomes a non-stop cavalcade of lunatic conspiracy theories, bigotry and misinformation.
Animated GIF
 

JayK47

Member
Freedom of speech is an American thing, so you can't expect other countries to just go along with it without kicking and screaming like children. When the internet first came to be, it was the wild wild west and people said whatever. It was mostly pretty great. But now, with so many entities trying to control everything, the internet is not all that great anymore. And most people seem to want to be told what they can and can't say. They are demanding more censorship. "Please sir, oppress me more! Oppress me harder!"
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Preventing the spread of conspiracy and disinformation = evil censorship.

Come back to the real world, lad.

All those designations are subjective to the point of meaninglessness you fool!

Once you accept that censorship is a requirement then you're at the mercy of where the powers-that-be set the parameters for what constitutes "conspiracy" and/or "disinformation".

This in turn creates a secondary problem in circumstances where "the actual truth" is not yet fully established, chilling discussion because everyone is obligated to support a certain preliminary position that the authorities favour.


The antidote to everything is healthy scepticism and critical thinking, unfortunately that stands against the global elite's desire for unthinking compliance.
 

Kraz

Banned
Even the monstrous GSK and J&J will stop advertising their wares on Twitter, if it becomes a non-stop cavalcade of lunatic conspiracy theories, bigotry and misinformation.
Definitely once there's another option to access their market when it moves on with everyone else.

With nowhere to go and Musk adding more heat to leave the pressure builds.

I look forward to some fairly stringent guidelines coming along in the next few weeks, when he gets it all sorted out.
These will have to be forthcoming and revealing since there will be a proper competing service at some point.

A start up gets the jump on it with familiar faces from Twitter 1.0 in various front facing departments would go a long way.
 
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Chaplain

Member
Freedom of speech is an American thing, so you can't expect other countries to just go along with it without kicking and screaming like children. When the internet first came to be, it was the wild wild west and people said whatever. It was mostly pretty great. But now, with so many entities trying to control everything, the internet is not all that great anymore. And most people seem to want to be told what they can and can't say. They are demanding more censorship. "Please sir, oppress me more! Oppress me harder!"

I agree and it shows there is nothing new under the sun (Ecclesiastes).

"The fundamental and unavoidable problem with hate speech is that no one can say definitively what it is. The result is that there are huge and consequential differences between the claims, and since it is essentially subjective, it is always open to abuse. To define hate speech according to the eye of the beholder is to put a sword in the hands of the power wielder. .. Subjective notions such as hate speech have in turn aggravated two other negative responses: victim playing and phobiaization. The first of these bad responses occurs when people feel threatened and then play the victim card in order to seize the high ground by posing as "more victimized than thou." This tactic works well, of course, in societies influenced by the Jewish and Christian faiths, for as Nietzsche recognized with scorn, the latter privilege the status of the victim. Under some philosophies and in some cultures they would be treated simply as history's roadkill. Needless to say, hate speech itself is a crime viewed from the perspective of the victim rather than society, so the encouragement to victim playing grows out easily from the category... There is no question that speech is a vital consideration for all who wish to promote freedom, that those who speak with hatred are a deadly menace to society and that censorship always arises at the hands of those who set themselves up as guardians of the community's moral standing—be they conservative as in the past or liberal as so often today. But for all the good intentions behind the policing of offense and the politics of hate speech, the unintended consequences are disastrous. For liberals who have introduced so much of the politically correct speech as well as the hate speech regulations on campuses, the hate crime bills in the British Parliament and the U.S. Congress, and the hate cases before the European Court of Human Rights, the result is the chilling of robust, tough-minded liberal debate. If ever there was a need for plain speaking and truth telling, it is now when core freedoms are endangered. Instead, the stifling blanket of "No offense" wraps around our heads, potential charges of partiality are like concealed tripwires for our arguments and the fear of lawsuits, countersuits and even death threats and bounties hang over us like a sword. Studies of earlier evils such anti-Semitism demonstrate that hate-speech prosecutions have not achieved what their authors hoped to achieve. Rather, such restrictions leave the universities and countries that adopt them more litigious, uncertain and restless than ever, and vulnerable to even greater tensions and conflict." (Os Guinness, Guest Scholar at the Woodrow Wilson Center and a Visiting Fellow at the Brookings Institution)
 
Regarding the debate going on in this thread the problem as I see it is that media has always had the option to present questionable information as factual, but now we have competing, mutually-exclusive narratives, which means we're all very aware that someone must be lying/inaccurate. This creates distrust and confusion.

Thinking there is a source of truth that can be used as the reference point to know who is wrong...I don't know that it exists. I don't have a solution for that lack of "truth", either, other than allowing all narratives to exist and then to trust people to think critically. And that's a tall, probably impossible ask. There is too much information and too many competing narratives to reasonably expect a common person to be able to discern truth. There's the idea that a single newspaper contains more information than a 1600s serf saw in their lifetime. And we are inundated with more news than a newspaper on a daily basis, given social media. This flood of knowledge is incomprehensible. Inscrutable.

And so we argue about whether to censor certain narratives because the two sides have opposing beliefs: one side believes there are information sources who can discern the truth and we can trust them versus those who think that might be an impossible order and/or there may be motivations in play NOT to present an unbiased version of the truth

Can't we all just get along and play some vidya?
 

Kraz

Banned
I agree and it shows there is nothing new under the sun (Ecclesiastes).
The biblical part in context of antivaxxers/conspiracy theoriests does read well in the sense that their claims of being unfairly victimized are attempts to play the victim to seize the high ground(as it says) so they can agitate to foment the very thing they condemn and benefit from their victims. The author calling himself a scholar and saying there's a "stifling blanket of no offense" looks unqualified since there's no such thing. It's doubtful he's taking about apostasy. Maybe what he was saying was a projection of a belief in being victimized himself to seize the high ground.
 
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BadBurger

Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
The biblical part in context of antivaxxers/conspiracy theoriests does read well in the sense that their claims of being unfairly victimized are attempts to play the victim to seize the high ground(as it says) so they can agitate to foment the very thing they condemn and benefit from their victims. The author calling himself a scholar and saying there's a "stifling blanket of no offense" looks unqualified since there's no such thing. It's doubtful he's taking about apostasy. Maybe what he was saying was a projection of a belief in being victimized himself to seize the high ground.

I was immediately struck by the bizarre claim that hate speech can't be defined. That's like saying "I just can't figure which is the liquid and which is the solid - the water in the glass next to me, or the rock I'm holding. Hmm..... impossible to figure out which is which".

It's as if it was written by a person who is completely unaware of the society they live in nor the people they live alongside within it. Or, merely someone attempting to rationalize their negative feelings towards certain groups by over thinking the obvious or compartmentalizing.


On Twitter - with the firing or resignations of so many on their moderation, civic integrity, and curation teams it has become a pain to use. Not only is it overall no longer functioning as well as it used to in small ways due to so many of the data scientists and other engineers who used to maintain them being gone, but the amount of content it now serves me that I would have never seen before is marked. There's also a lot of open bigotry and support of violence infesting the replies of many threads.

However, I found a terrifically configured Mastodon server that is federated with other good servers and seems to be the destination of many of the creatives, humorists, journalists, and others that I follow(ed) on Twitter so I am good. My only use of Twitter going forward is for the support groups of vendors I work with.
 

Azurro

Banned
That used to be a laughable thing, but some of the draconian stuff coming out of Canada and the UK has shown that the 1st amendment actually is pretty damn important.

There is a problem with chopping up teen's genitals and giving them chemical castration medication? Noooo, of course not, I'll fine you and put you in jail if you disagree. - Canadian government.
 

Toons

Member
Preventing the spread of conspiracy and disinformation = evil censorship.

Come back to the real world, lad.

Louder for the people in the back

Bulls*** is not protected speech when you present it as factual information lol. I cannot go publish a paper to the scientific community that the moon is made out if cheese. It won't get published.

It is not just another "idea" it is factually verifiable bulls*** and will be treated as such. All the folks arguing for the presentation and consideration of bulls*** know exactly what they are doing. Its convenient for then because they know it's far likelier they'll find some of that stuff believable and want to be able to express it without deserved pushback.
 
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Toons

Member
Yes it is. Right under the 1A.

Where did you learn civics?

I should clarify.

You're allowed to SAY BS in the public forum.

Which Twitter isn't. Which means Twitter, and any other entity, has and needs a code of conduct on what will be platformed. Twitter is responsible for what gets posted on its site; and im sure under other circumstances you'd agree.

So no, it isnt protected speech on Twitter or most other sites that rely on not platforming hate speech and lies.

We keep going in circles but at the end what you're actually arguing is that twitter shouldn't have a code of conduct or should go with an anything goes approach. Which frankly, is a terrible idea and again, i think most would agree under other less divisive circumstances. Not that Vax conspiracies should be divisive anyway.
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member
I should clarify.

You're allowed to SAY BS in the public forum.

Which Twitter isn't. Which means Twitter, and any other entity, has and needs a code of conduct on what will be platformed. Twitter is responsible for what gets posted on its site; and im sure under other circumstances you'd agree.

So no, it isnt protected speech on Twitter or most other sites that rely on not platforming hate speech and lies.

We keep going in circles but at the end what you're actually arguing is that twitter shouldn't have a code of conduct or should go with an anything goes approach. Which frankly, is a terrible idea and again, i think most would agree under other less divisive circumstances. Not that Vax conspiracies should be divisive anyway.
Musk calls it a public forum (square), so... 🤷‍♀️
 

Moneal

Member
I should clarify.

You're allowed to SAY BS in the public forum.

Which Twitter isn't. Which means Twitter, and any other entity, has and needs a code of conduct on what will be platformed. Twitter is responsible for what gets posted on its site; and im sure under other circumstances you'd agree.

So no, it isnt protected speech on Twitter or most other sites that rely on not platforming hate speech and lies.

We keep going in circles but at the end what you're actually arguing is that twitter shouldn't have a code of conduct or should go with an anything goes approach. Which frankly, is a terrible idea and again, i think most would agree under other less divisive circumstances. Not that Vax conspiracies should be divisive anyway.
Banning speech on social media or otherwise does not stop the speech. It pushes it into darker areas. It pushes its believers into darker areas and darker views. https://theconversation.com/i-watch...could-mean-for-fighting-disinformation-184589
 

FunkMiller

Member
Musk calls it a public forum (square), so... 🤷‍♀️

He can call it what he likes, but what it is, is a mainstream social media platform that relies on advertising revenue to continue to function.

We can have arguments until we’re all blue in the face, but the bottom line is that Twitter cannot be a free for all, where anyone can say anything they like. That’s not how successful things exist in the free market.

Unless Muskie plans on making users pay subscription fees for basic use (and good luck trying that) he’s going to have to police the content on the site. Otherwise the lunatics take over the asylum, and that’s not good for business.
 

FunkMiller

Member
That used to be a laughable thing, but some of the draconian stuff coming out of Canada and the UK has shown that the 1st amendment actually is pretty damn important.

What exactly are you talking about? Bear in mind I’m actually in the UK, so I’d know if there was some sort of draconian crack down on free speech underway.
 

GloveSlap

Member
Louder for the people in the back

Bulls*** is not protected speech when you present it as factual information lol. I cannot go publish a paper to the scientific community that the moon is made out if cheese. It won't get published.

It is not just another "idea" it is factually verifiable bulls*** and will be treated as such. All the folks arguing for the presentation and consideration of bulls*** know exactly what they are doing. Its convenient for then because they know it's far likelier they'll find some of that stuff believable and want to be able to express it without deserved pushback.
So when are we coming for the soccer moms and their healing crystals/astrology charts?
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
He can call it what he likes, but what it is, is a mainstream social media platform that relies on advertising revenue to continue to function.

We can have arguments until we’re all blue in the face, but the bottom line is that Twitter cannot be a free for all, where anyone can say anything they like. That’s not how successful things exist in the free market.

Unless Muskie plans on making users pay subscription fees for basic use (and good luck trying that) he’s going to have to police the content on the site. Otherwise the lunatics take over the asylum, and that’s not good for business.
You are putting too much weight in these advertisers exiting. Advertisers also don't want to miss out on hundreds of millions of eyes, hence why Spotify stood its ground and they shut up after a couple of weeks and continued business as usual, and just as they advertise and sell in rogue states with even worse draconian and atrocious human or animal rights violations.

Twitter prior to Musk was just as much of a shithole with some of the most vile and nasty things which goes back to my point on this...

It can be defined, it's that the arbiters of said definition are as hypocritical as they come.
 
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FunkMiller

Member
You are putting too much weight in these advertisers exiting. Advertisers also don't want to miss out on hundreds of millions of eyes, hence why Spotify stood its ground and they shut up after a couple of weeks and continued business as usual, and just as they advertise in rogue states with even worse draconian and atrocious human or animal rights violations.

As previously stated as an example, if someone is allowed to continually post disinformation about the holocaust, and Twitter does nothing… you just watch the companies leave en masse.

Or how about accounts that spread misinformation about the war in Ukraine? How long do you think big companies will hang around, if Twitter becomes a place where Russian propaganda is allowed to spread unchecked?
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
As previously stated as an example, if someone is allowed to continually post disinformation about the holocaust, and Twitter does nothing… you just watch the companies leave en masse.

Or how about accounts that spread misinformation about the war in Ukraine? How long do you think big companies will hang around, if Twitter becomes a place where Russian propaganda is allowed to spread unchecked?
He already outlined what they are doing with those types of posts. Your appeal to emotion scenarios aren't going to change that.
 

FunkMiller

Member
He already outlined what they are doing with those types of posts. Your appeal to emotion scenarios aren't going to change that.

So Musk is going to police Twitter, and ban or censor stuff. Okay then.

That's a bit different from the scenario some are trying to paint in this thread about allowing total free speech.
 
So when are we coming for the soccer moms and their healing crystals/astrology charts?
First they came for the Republicans, and I said nothing as I am not a Republican.

Then, they came for the Astrology Soccer Moms, and again I said nothing, as I am not an Astrology Soccer Mom.

Finally, they came for the "Kanye West was Replaced by a Genetically-Modified Clone of Jesus Christ Brought Out of Cryogenic Freezing when Ye Was Hospitalized in 2016"-ers, and there was no one left to speak for me
 

DragoonKain

Neighbours from Hell
I think Twitter going away is the best thing for society, I think it's horrible for discourse and polarization. But if it's going to hang around, I'm getting some FFXIV vibes from Elon's Twitter. Starts off messy, everyone's trying to figure everything out and figure out what works, what doesn't, and what to fix, but at the end of the road you'll get a better product.

Nothing was going to change with the previous regime. It was going to remain status quo. Maybe Elon will destroy it, because he's kind of volatile, but also there is a higher ceiling of potential as well. I'll take it. If Twitter dies, society is happier and less angry. If Twitter thrives and improves, well, you still have a platform that's awful for discourse, but it could be run better. Win/win.

And maybe all the insufferable people who go around calling everyone evil and bigots and report stuff all day actually do migrate to other platforms, so they can all have their own platform of crazy and delusion, kinda like RE. But I wouldn't count on it. Narcissists need their voices heard by the masses and they simply won't get that on smaller platforms.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
I was immediately struck by the bizarre claim that hate speech can't be defined. That's like saying "I just can't figure which is the liquid and which is the solid - the water in the glass next to me, or the rock I'm holding. Hmm..... impossible to figure out which is which".

Creating "a" definition is easy, because its subjective. Formulating a fair, consensus, definition of "hate-speech" when the progressive modus operandi is to redefine the meanings of words to conform to their ideology, is pretty much an impossibility.

Objectively how can you properly define "hate speech" when the phenomenon of "racism" itself varies in definition based on politics? Is social power the key component or not?


It's as if it was written by a person who is completely unaware of the society they live in nor the people they live alongside within it. Or, merely someone attempting to rationalize their negative feelings towards certain groups by over thinking the obvious or compartmentalizing.

Already disproved this, but honestly have you failed to realize that social media is based in large part about creating the illusion of "the society we live in" by selectively editorializing the full-spectrum into one designed to be palatable and advertizing friendly!


On Twitter - with the firing or resignations of so many on their moderation, civic integrity, and curation teams it has become a pain to use. Not only is it overall no longer functioning as well as it used to in small ways due to so many of the data scientists and other engineers who used to maintain them being gone, but the amount of content it now serves me that I would have never seen before is marked. There's also a lot of open bigotry and support of violence infesting the replies of many threads.

You do understand that moderation changes were only responsible for you being made aware of these sentiments, right? They were always there, the algorithm simply allowed you to bury your head in the sand.


However, I found a terrifically configured Mastodon server that is federated with other good servers and seems to be the destination of many of the creatives, humorists, journalists, and others that I follow(ed) on Twitter so I am good. My only use of Twitter going forward is for the support groups of vendors I work with.

So rather than deal, you choose to retreat to another silo'd safe-space where opinions and outlook are curated within certain parameters. The sort of place where there is no ambiguity of what "hate speech" is, because you're all on the same page politically.
 

Toons

Member
Musk calls it a public forum (square), so... 🤷‍♀️
And yet there are still folks he won't platform on the site like Alex Jones, who spouts misinformation.

Banning speech on social media or otherwise does not stop the speech. It pushes it into darker areas. It pushes its believers into darker areas and darker views. https://theconversation.com/i-watch...could-mean-for-fighting-disinformation-184589
And banning CP doesn't stop CP from being made, but it is a massive deterrent and makes it much much harder to acquire and forces you to seek it out to acquire it which in turn makes it easier to prosecute you for acquiring it.
 

Vestal

Junior Member
He can call it what he likes, but what it is, is a mainstream social media platform that relies on advertising revenue to continue to function.

We can have arguments until we’re all blue in the face, but the bottom line is that Twitter cannot be a free for all, where anyone can say anything they like. That’s not how successful things exist in the free market.

Unless Muskie plans on making users pay subscription fees for basic use (and good luck trying that) he’s going to have to police the content on the site. Otherwise the lunatics take over the asylum, and that’s not good for business.
Basically this...

Lets remember 1 important fact.. 44 BILLION with a B.

How do get a return on that investment?
 
Theres a difference between lacking clarity in a comment leading to inaccuracy and knowing pushing false information, but im hoping this was just a joke in good faith

You said bs wasn't protected speech which is ironically just more bs. And on top of that you likened tweeting to publishing scientific articles. :LOL:
 

Toons

Member
Creating "a" definition is easy, because its subjective. Formulating a fair, consensus, definition of "hate-speech" when the progressive modus operandi is to redefine the meanings of words to conform to their ideology, is pretty much an impossibility.

Objectively how can you properly define "hate speech" when the phenomenon of "racism" itself varies in definition based on politics? Is social power the key component or not?
Its really not as hard as your making it out to be to define it. Theres always context and theres always a track record of behavior that backs these things up.

Kanye saying what he said about Jews is blatant antisemitism, for example. He wasn't subtle about it.

Already disproved this, but honestly have you failed to realize that social media is based in large part about creating the illusion of "the society we live in" by selectively editorializing the full-spectrum into one designed to be palatable and advertizing friendly!

It doesn't make a difference, the moderation needs to be there, thst isn't up for debate.

You do understand that moderation changes were only responsible for you being made aware of these sentiments, right? They were always there, the algorithm simply allowed you to bury your head in the sand.
Not being exposed to that trite isn't burying your head in the saying. We know they exist. Most of us good people just don't want to be exposed to it.

So rather than deal, you choose to retreat to another silo'd safe-space where opinions and outlook are curated within certain parameters. The sort of place where there is no ambiguity of what "hate speech" is, because you're all on the same page politically.
Oh please. We aren't obligated to hear out racists and conspiracy theorists. No one is. Ya know what happens when I don't like the servers in a restaurant? I stop going there, and go to a different one instead.

I've seen PLENTY in recent years pulling their kids out of schools, going onto different websites, and ceasing to view certain news outlets for similar reasons.
 

Toons

Member
You said bs wasn't protected speech which is ironically just more bs. And on top of that you likened tweeting to publishing scientific articles. :LOL:
I clarified my comments already. And yes, I did like it to that time highlight that in a non public sector like Twitter is; anything doesn't go and your speech has to he vetted and backed by facts before approved for widespread distribution.
 
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