NYCmetsfan
Banned
I'm talking this case only. Why is building a database of metadata ok for 20,000 people but no 80 million (which its not doing because there are only so many employees)?
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U.S. taps half-billion German phone calls, internet links in month: report
- Thread starter Espresso
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It isn't, but one is a lot more threatening than the other.
Maybe, but it is just guesswork at the moment. For arguments sake, I am going to say they would, even if I don't really personally believe it.
I'm glad we are sort of on the same page here though.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
You realize their not monitoring the activities (i.e. looking at their emails or listening to phone calls) of those innocent people. They're inserting call data and IP logs into a register and running links to see if anything pops up. Then they would actually "spy" The same thing the german's own network works (at a smaller scale because they don't have the resources)
Der Spiegl said:
I don't see protections for foreign citizens in germany's laws
I mean this is literally the same stuff people were yelling at the NSA about.
IISANDERII
Member
Fixed that for ya
And what's funny is that the US system and the German system allow them to spy on their own people just by trading coverage. Convenient.
Hurray. Seems Germany really would be just as bad if it had the means. This still doesn't make me happy, and I don't see why it should make anyone happy.
What a fucked up world.
lol. Sorry, was at work and was kinda busy. I should have been more polite
If it was really about "saving lifes", governments would instead disallow smoking, drinking alcohol and other things. On top of that US would restrict gun ownership and would also offer mandatory statutory health insurance. That would save a lot more lifes than spying ever could.
It's about power and control. And that's basically it.
You can be sure if Germany was caught recording basically all the connection data in the US and leisurly wiretapping random civilians there would be a shitstorm in the US too. On top of wiretapping Obama.
It's not as if uncovering top spies has never produced fallout between nations in the past. So expecting to say, "it's just international espionage" is completely disregarding the nature of the game which is "don't get caught". And god did you get caught.
There is currently a media shitstorm across every newspaper big and small and it will be there for weeks, especially since nothing else of major interest is currently upcoming. No "champions league bailout" so to speak
You can be sure if Germany was caught recording basically all the connection data in the US and leisurly wiretapping random civilians there would be a shitstorm in the US too. On top of wiretapping Obama.
It's not as if uncovering top spies has never produced fallout between nations in the past. So expecting to say, "it's just international espionage" is completely disregarding the nature of the game which is "don't get caught". And god did you get caught.
There is currently a media shitstorm across every newspaper big and small and it will be there for weeks, especially since nothing else of major interest is currently upcoming. No "champions league bailout" so to speak
I just spent the last few pages arguing against apathy in this regard whether it be U.S. Germany, U.K. or China. The lengths to which espionage is considered ok to these governments is just messed up.
Please just tell me I haven't been spending time arguing with truthers and/or chemtrail believers.
EDIT: \/\/\/ Good to hear. I'm only asking because someone on facebook reminded me how deep down the rabbit hole some folks go. It's best to not even engage with some types of people.
EDIT: \/\/\/ Good to hear. I'm only asking because someone on facebook reminded me how deep down the rabbit hole some folks go. It's best to not even engage with some types of people.
When was this even brought up? I never believed in those.
You can get crazy conspiracy theorists on the one hand and apathetic cynics on the other. It's tough not to fall down one of those holes when you argue about something and it gets out of hand, but even people that do fall down one of those holes can still have valid points.
I'm just going to put one last thing out there. If what Obama has recently stated is true, that everyone is spying on everyone and so that makes it ok, doesn't this effectively make whistle-blowers the people's equivalent to spy agencies, or about as good as we are going to get any time soon? Why then is it so important to jail him and Assange (who despite seemingly being a narcissistic prick, his WikiLeaks has in my opinion been a good thing that has helped some of my country's shenanigans see the light of day).
If everyone already knew about the quality and quantity of espionage happening, then surely Snowden's leaks would just be deemed unimportant and they wouldn't bother trying to justify anything.
I'd rather live in a so called second world country that doesn't need to resort to these tactics. I am sure there are a few countries left in the world that haven't been completely tainted. This is actually something I have considered doing for quite some time. Most of these 'first world luxuries' I can pass on if it means that Stasi levels of espionage are the new benchmark on the moral compass.
In the case of the US, they won't prioritize their own citizens freedoms either.
I like you. A lot.
Nobody wants to jail Assange. Sweden wants to interview him/prosecute him for an alleged crime, but that's it.
Yeah... sure.
Saving countless lives by spying on Germans? Sure...
Right ok, that is still open for debate.
I should of never have mentioned Assange. What about Snowden?
GunslingerVit
Banned
And Bradley Manning is getting a fair trail.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
That's a claim I think you need to back up with evidence. Where is the injuries from the abuse? If there were false flags or wiretaps interrupting peoples lives, that needs to be taken seriously and subject to investigation. I don't want to say I'm in favor of everything the NSA wants to do being allowed. I'm in favor of checks and oversight and even censuring them when they over step their bounds. Its the tactic I don't have a problem with. If this was abused, I sure as hell would be up in arms and demanding responsibility but I've seen none of that yet, and I'm not about to take away a tool if its done good and in the absence of concrete and continued abuses. I think making policy on hypotheticals is silly.
The the same article talks about the BND wanting to increase its capability. The limited scope is seen as a weakness within the agency, its more of a reflection of other/outside limits, some of which are public opinion I admit (which is much less accepting of spying for obvious reasons), others are technical (the NSA has some of the worlds best computers and mathematicians) on german's spying power rather than benevolence on the part of the government.
Gemüsepizza
Member
Sure. Assange said he was willing to return to Sweden if they can assure him that he won't be extradited to the USA. They declined.
http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/listeningpost/2013/06/2013614145837882956.html
Jesus, what am I reading? "Making policy on hypotheticals is silly"? But that's how law makers work. And If it is possible to abuse this, then, in the worst case, it's already too late. This is a really naive view of the world. You need to think of checks before making policies.
This is fiction. If Sweden had the best of intentions in mind and no ulterior motive, they could have done a million things differently in order to resolve this.
And nobody ever tortured Manning. No sir.
Fuck Assange and fuck his puckered asshole waiting for us to kiss it. He doesn't know a goddamn thing, and neither does anyone that came within 10 yards of him. It's so fucking stupid. Ooh, wow, I'm like a spy or something - don't I feel special? What the fuck choice do we have according to him? It's so stupid. I'd learn more by watching Adult Swim.
Ask the Germans about spying on Austrians.
EDIT: Oh, whoops.
What we know the US imported from post-WWII Germany:
Rocket scientists, since Germany had developed the worlds most advanced rocket program.
This enabled the American space program.
What else does it seem that the US imported from post-WWII Germany:
Gestapo scientists, since Germany had developed the worlds most advanced police state.
This enabled, well, modern USA.
Rocket scientists, since Germany had developed the worlds most advanced rocket program.
This enabled the American space program.
What else does it seem that the US imported from post-WWII Germany:
Gestapo scientists, since Germany had developed the worlds most advanced police state.
This enabled, well, modern USA.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
You are as a US citizen hypothetically a threat to the USA that is why Obama has the right to kill you whereever and whenever he wants, without any trials to stop him. Practically. It was done already, practically.
You are as a US citizen hypothetically a threat to the USA that is why the US goverment is spying on you.
Laws, which are shitting on freedom rights and you are defending are based hypotheticals.
No clue
pigeon interrupted
Member
;p
Half and half
Member
Kinda in "well duh" territory, but Snowden says that the NSA "is in bed together with the Germans":
http://www.spiegel.de/international...of-aiding-nsa-in-spying-efforts-a-909847.html
SPIEGEL is supposed to have something more substantial coming on the issue.
http://www.spiegel.de/international...of-aiding-nsa-in-spying-efforts-a-909847.html
SPIEGEL is supposed to have something more substantial coming on the issue.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Can't wait for next week to read the report. I want to see what countries are involved.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
There is no proof of Canada's involvement in this yet which is why I await the SPEIGEL report. I hope Canadians won't be passive if not supportive of this like Americans have been, because something like PRISM is unconstitutional to the core, and our opposition parties aren't in cahoots with the government like Democrats and Republicans are with the little oligarchy they have crafted for themselves.
Ether_Snake
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So governments work with the NSA to stay in power.
Half and half
Member
Well, the CSEC seems to have been involved with the G20 snooping along with the NSA and GCHQ. Their logos are all at the bottom of page 2 of the leaks:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/interactive/2013/jun/16/gchq-surveillance-the-documents
Elfforkusu
Member
They don't have to spy on their own citizens if the NSA does it for them!
You Are Viewtiful
Member
That is indeed eyebrow raising. I know for a fact that CSEC does have a mandate to spy on foreign communications. They aren't allowed to spy on Canadians or people living in Canada though, or even take information from other spy agencies about Canadians. I hope the report sheds some light on what happened on G20 or the state of international intelligence sharing.
It's also probably because that's where American bases were mostly located, historically.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
There are no victims here. All governments spy on each other and try to come out on top.
It seems so. The "official" european government scandal, all of it fake.
Everybody seems to be just playing along, it's bothersome.
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