Support NeoGAF

[Bits N Pieces]

Ok, what is your point? It only proves there is a history of lying from their Xbox division this gen. Which in turn, could still be a lie till this day to intentionally not allow it.

Why say something so cemented with not even the MSFT style vagueness, if they knew it was not true from the very beginning?

Either way, it does not matter in reality, since the OG will not get the support, but with this kind of history, I am inclined not to believe anything anymore. Especially when Larry Hryb even doubled down with it. It wasn't just 'that guy'.

lol

 

[DeepEnigma]

lol

I know you want to take a post out and try and bump some shit with zero discourse provided (only a cute little Tie Fighter)... but try and keep up, since we already went over the misunderstandings and PR BS.

 

[CosmicQueso]

(only a cute little Tie Fighter)

Can't unsee. lol ruined (improved?) forever. THANKS.

 

[Theonik]

Got it.

Now I can see where I got confused with all the 'patchwork 4K' until UHD came out. Thanks for clearing that up guys.

It's kinda similar with DVD era masters. Early DVD masters were usually using the same master as the LD. Later on as digital mastering standards improved most DVDs used 1080i telecines which they would then convert for DVD.

 

[Parham]

Can't unsee. lol ruined (improved?) forever. THANKS.

lol lol - - x>

 

[dr_rus]

Not all that many movies have been shot in 1080p. There was a window where that definitely happened, but that was outmoded pretty quickly.

If it's on film, that sort of resolution doesn't really apply. It depends on how you scan and master those elements digitally. Plenty of movies are shot digitally at high resolutions (4K, 5K, 6K, etc.) and still mastered at 2K. It's easier, faster, and cheaper, especially when dealing with a bunch of visual effects.

2K is 1080p. If you mean 2560x1440 then this is WQHD or 2.5K if you prefer.

 

[Adam Tyner]

2K is 1080p.

No, it's not.

It's close -- 2048x1080 -- but that's not the same thing as 1920x1080.

 

[dr_rus]

No, it's not.

It's close -- 2048x1080 -- but that's not the same thing as 1920x1080.

What everyone call 4K is 4096x2160 as well but this doesn't stop anyone from calling 3840x2160 that. 2K is 1080p.

 

[Adam Tyner]

What everyone call 4K is 4096x2160 as well but this doesn't stop anyone from calling 3840x2160 that. 2K is 1080p.

If you speak to anyone involved in authoring Blu-ray discs, mastering, etc., they will definitely draw a distinction between 1080p and 2K. I'm geeky enough to spend too much time in those circles (I've been writing quasi-professionally about Blu-ray for nearly a decade), so I have a tendency to do the same.

If you think that's being unnecessarily precise, that's fine, and I get it, but I don't see how something that's not incorrect warrants a correction.

 

[NewDust]

What everyone call 4K is 4096x2160 as well but this doesn't stop anyone from calling 3840x2160 that. 2K is 1080p.

It's not though... It's for instance the reason this thread title speaks of UHD Blu-ray consoles and not 4K consoles.

You entered a thread where specifications matter and if incorrect are pointed out. Yours are factually wrong.

___

I know you want to take a post out and try and bump some shit with zero discourse provided (only a cute little Tie Fighter) ... but try and keep up, since we already went over the misunderstandings and PR BS.

 

[LordofPwn]

What everyone call 4K is 4096x2160 as well but this doesn't stop anyone from calling 3840x2160 that. 2K is 1080p.

4K is 4096 wide
3840x2160 is not 4K, it's UHD. they're using 4K as a marketing term because it's 4 times the resolution as Full HD (1920x1080)

2K and 4K are cinema standard terms/specifications for horizontal resolution.
1920x1080p is not as is never the same as 2K.

 

[Putty]

4K is 4096 wide
3840x2160 is not 4K, it's UHD. they're using 4K as a marketing term because it's 4 times the resolution as Full HD (1920x1080)

2K and 4K are cinema standard terms/specifications for horizontal resolution.
1920x1080p is not as is never the same as 2K.

Ah yes, but what cute Star Wars craft would it be?!

 

[dr_rus]

4K is 4096 wide
3840x2160 is not 4K, it's UHD. they're using 4K as a marketing term because it's 4 times the resolution as Full HD (1920x1080)

2K and 4K are cinema standard terms/specifications for horizontal resolution.
1920x1080p is not as is never the same as 2K.

All resolutions which are approximately 4000 pixels wide are called 4K. Both 4096x2160 and 3840x2160 are 4K resolution. 4K never was anything but a marketing term, it doesn't have any technical meaning. If you want to specify the resolution in full you have to say YxZ and preferably specify the pixel aspect ratio as well.

It just pains me to see people calling 2560x1440 "2K" because it's not 2K by any means imaginable. "2.5K" would be ok but WQHD or even QHD is a better term. And again, nothing beats just saying the 2560x1440 in full as this is a proper way of describing it. Everything else is marketing.

It's not though... It's for instance the reason this thread title speaks of UHD Blu-ray consoles and not 4K consoles.

You entered a thread where specifications matter and if incorrect are pointed out. Yours are factually wrong.

Nope, mine are in fact correct. And "4K consoles" would actually be a better fit for the thread title since UHD term include 8K in itself as well as 4K.

 

[Adam Tyner]

All resolutions which are approximately 4000 pixels wide are called 4K. Both 4096x2160 and 3840x2160 are 4K resolution. 4K never was anything but a marketing term, it doesn't have any technical meaning. If you want to specify the resolution in full you have to say YxZ and preferably specify the pixel aspect ratio as well.

It just pains me to see people calling 2560x1440 "2K" because it's not 2K by any means imaginable. "2.5K" would be ok but WQHD or even QHD is a better term. And again, nothing beats just saying the 2560x1440 in full as this is a proper way of describing it. Everything else is marketing.



Nope, mine are in fact correct. And "4K consoles" would actually be a better fit for the thread title since UHD term include 8K in itself as well as 4K.

One jeff_rigby leaves, another jeff_rigby enters.

 

[c0de]

I'm happy the thread isn't closed yet, it keeps on giving.

 

[CosmicQueso]

One jeff_rigby leaves, another jeff_rigby enters.

You love this more than I've ever loved anything.

 

[JeffG]

One jeff_rigby leaves, another jeff_rigby enters.

Its like Wak-a-mole

 

[NewDust]

All resolutions which are approximately 4000 pixels wide are called 4K.
Both 4096x2160 and 3840x2160 are 4K resolution.

It's not

4K never was anything but a marketing term, it doesn't have any technical meaning.

It has, see below

If you want to specify the resolution in full you have to say YxZ and preferably specify the pixel aspect ratio as well.

that seems fair

It just pains me to see people calling 2560x1440 "2K" because it's not 2K by any means imaginable. "2.5K" would be ok but WQHD or even QHD is a better term. And again, nothing beats just saying the 2560x1440 in full as this is a proper way of describing it. Everything else is marketing.

I don't know wher, in the entire thread you got the idea we were talking about 2.5K/2560x1440

Nope, mine are in fact correct. And "4K consoles" would actually be a better fit for the thread title since UHD term include 8K in itself as well as 4K.

FHD/1080p-2K and UHD-4K/8K aren't interchangeable, however people might call it.
4K and UHD are two different specifications.You can, however talk about 4K UHD to differentiate it from 8K UHD and vice versa. You are than specifically talking about 3840 x 2160 or 7680 × 4320.

4K is specified by DCI (PDF) and is mostly used in the movie business.

• A 2K distribution – the resolution of the DCDM*3 container is 2048x1080.
• A 4K distribution – the resolution of the DCDM*7 container is 4096x2160

UHD is specified by the ITU (PDF) and is mostly used in broadcasting and consumer electronics

Pixel count
Horizontal × vertical 7 680 × 4 320 | 3 840 × 2 160

What most people call 4K is in most cases incorrect and is actually UHD


EDIT:

Have I become Rigbyesque?

 

[dr_rus]

FHD/1080p-2K and UHD-4K/8K aren't interchangeable, however people might call it.
4K and UHD are two different specifications.You can, however talk about 4K UHD to differentiate it from 8K UHD and vice versa. You are than specifically talking about 3840 x 2160 or 7680 × 4320.

4K is specified by DCI (PDF) and is mostly used in the movie business.



UHD is specified by the ITU (PDF) and is mostly used in broadcasting and consumer electronics



What most people call 4K is in most cases incorrect and is actually UHD


EDIT:

Have I become Rigbyesque?

Ok, that clears up some things (but I insist that both 4096 and 3860 resolutions are in fact "4K" as that label is applicable to any resolution which is close to 4000 pixels wide). So the original poster were in fact talking about 2048x1080 when he said 2K? Then this is a rare circumstance of a correct usage for that term.

 

[Adam Tyner]

So the original poster were in fact talking about 2048x1080 when he said 2K? Then this is a rare circumstance of a correct usage for that term.

I was the first person to throw out "2K" in this recent line of conversation, and I was using it correctly.

 

[Hutty211]

Ok, that clears up some things (but I insist that both 4096 and 3860 resolutions are in fact "4K" as that label is applicable to any resolution which is close to 4000 pixels wide). So the original poster were in fact talking about 2048x1080 when he said 2K? Then this is a rare circumstance of a correct usage for that term.

There shall be no conceding (no matter how minor) in this thread! Haha.....this is the only thread I keep open on a separate tab.

 

[Theonik]

There shall be no conceding (no matter how minor) in this thread! Haha.....this is the only thread I keep open on a separate tab.

Some of us are here long term. WE ARE INVESTED.

 

[Negotiator]

I wish there was a similar thread about the infamous

Spoiler

uprendering

™.

 

[dr_rus]

I was the first person to throw out "2K" in this recent line of conversation, and I was using it correctly.

Sorry, my mistake then =)

 

[Amagon]

Guise, stahp rite nao!

 

[Spiral Insanity]

Why did everyone turn on Jeff Rigby all of a sudden?

 

[Gamezone]

Even Jeff decided to leave this thread now.

 

[wesleyshark]

Why did everyone turn on Jeff Rigby all of a sudden?

Wasn't all of a sudden. He's been soapboxing for ages, and his theories were finally shut down definitively by people who are actually working on the consoles.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Even Jeff decided to leave this thread now.

No I'm still lurking but I stopped correcting Adam on Technical matters or when he distorts what I say as it's a wasted effort. He was correct when he criticized me for jumping to the conclusion that the XB1 was UHD capable but little else.

Microsoft will have to support HDCP 2.2 for Miracast and Vidipath. Microsoft planned support for HEVC profile 10 for HD media. So my statements that they had the understanding of HEVC necessary to support it in time to include support for UHD media is accurate. This is important to understand as we still have the PS4 which may support UHD media. The PS4 has a custom Panasonic HDMI chip for no reason if it's not to pass through HDCP negotiation to the TEE to support HDMI 2.

Synopsys offers a comprehensive portfolio of end-to-end, complete security for Trusted Execution Environments (TEE) or non-TEE environments including content protection solutions for HDCP 2.2 used in Miracast™, HDMI and DisplayPort applications, and DTCP-IP (CVP-2) for VidiPath/DLNA-enabled devices.

Support for HDCP 2.2 is required for 1080P media Miracast and Vidipath/DLNA commercial media. Vidipath is in home media sharing over the home network using HTML5 for the UI, DLNA and Microsoft's Playready and WMDRM (720P or lower res) or Playready ND (1080P or higher res) for DTCP-IP. The Same HDCP 2.2 routine running in the TEE is used for HDMI (Mapped to the HDMI chip) with a HDMI chip that passes HDCP negotiations to the TEE. Sony lists Playready and WMDRM so they are supporting Vidipath and HDCP 2.2. Vidipath and Miracast are tied together in every paper I've read. Playready ND papers from Microsoft mention game consoles using it (1080P and higher resolution Vidpath).

Regardless of UHD support, the ARM TEE in the XB1 APU and PS4 Southbridge is necessary to support embedded Playready in all it's forms as well as HTML5 <video> MSE EME IPTV apps from Cable TV and possibly later from Platform owners if the FCC DSTAC recommendation is accepted.

Costs to upgrade support from HD to UHD if you are already supporting a TEE and amortized over 20 million consoles. Rounding down fractional costs.

HDMI 2 -0- (Availability is a given as the Hardware standard is based on HDMI 1 except for HDCP 2.2. HDMI pass-through, XB1 HDMI in and HDMI out, may not have been possible or more expensive.
HEVC $14 (hard to estimate using cost differences between Kaveri and Carrizo because of hardware accelerators in the UVD6 that reduce the cost which may not be in a 2013 console)
UHD blu-ray drive -0- (Cost applies in any case but availability requires advance knowledge of the standard. Standards for the Version 2 3 layer disk were known in 2010 but there are other changes that might or might not be just firmware. Modern blu-ray drives that support 6X and greater speeds already have twice the cache RAM (4MB) which I think is necessary for UHD blu-ray.)
OS software -0- (provided standards are used for all versions of the Consoles and a wait for those standards to be released) Example: The cost for a BDA UHD licence is $.003/console/5years. HEVC is free for UHD Blu-ray and non-commercial use. Playready server use is -0- for Cable TV use of Playready DTCP-IP for Vidipath.

 

[Dictator93]

No I'm still lurking but I stopped correcting Adam on Technical matters or when he distorts what I say as it's a wasted effort. He was correct when he criticized me for jumping to the conclusion that the XB1 was UHD capable but little else.

So he was right for criticizing based upon the crux of this entire thread, but little else?

Thread title: "UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013"

huh?

 

[c0de]

So he was right for criticizing based upon the crux of this entire thread, but little else?

Thread title: "UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013"

huh?

He placed all his bets on Sony now. And I think that if there is no official word from Sony that it is not happening due to technical reasons, Jeff will keep on with his narrative.

 

[thetester77]

I'm beginning to think Jeff is just trolling us all. he's actually laughing reading everyone's responses.

I seriously hope it's a troll anyway.

 

[Colbert]

livinginabubble.gif

 

[rahulkadukar]

Jeff how about the Wii U. Once you are proved wrong about Sony will you then say that Wii U supports UHD.

To say it in simple words "YOU ARE WRONG"

 

[c0de]

Jeff how about the Wii U. Once you are proved wrong about Sony will you then say that Wii U supports UHD.

To say it in simple words "YOU ARE WRONG"

It even has an arm processor!

 

[rahulkadukar]

This is important to understand as we still have the PS4 which may support UHD media.

Not so sure now, are we

 

[rahulkadukar]

It even has an arm processor!

And it has a browser plus he will write something about HTML5 and voila UHD playback on Wii U is possible.

 

[NewDust]

Jeff how about the Wii U. Once you are proved wrong about Sony will you then say that Wii U supports UHD.

To say it in simple words "YOU ARE WRONG"

1. WiiU wasn't released in 2012
2. WiiU has a proprietary disc format only capable to hold up to 25GB
3. Nintendo has already denounced disc based media playback

Jeff is wrong, but let's not put words in the mans mouth he never said.

 

[c0de]

And it has a browser plus he will write something about HTML5 and voila UHD playback on Wii U is possible.

https://bitbucket.org/danparrot/x265-ppc-altivec/
It all comes together nicely.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

I'm surprised Jeff isn't Junior yet.

If Jeff loses his thread making privileges, he'll just start derailing other people's threads with his 14 paragraphs of copy and pasted techno-babble more so than he already does.

This thread still exists because it's literally a massive landfill for for Jeff's hyper obsessive numerology and firmware based conspiracy theories. As long as this thread exists, it keeps the rest of GAF relatively clean.

If anything, Jeff has earned an epic tag.

 

[Colbert]

If Jeff loses his thread making privileges, he'll just start derailing other people's threads with his 14 paragraphs of copy and pasted techno-babble more so than he already does.

This thread still exists because it's literally a massive landfill for for Jeff's hyper obsessive numerology and firmware based conspiracy theories. As long as this thread exists, it keeps the rest of GAF relatively clean.

If anything, Jeff has earned an epic tag.

Good point. I do a 180 and support "lets keep this thread open"

 

[rahulkadukar]

1. WiiU wasn't released in 2012
2. WiiU has a proprietary disc format only capable to hold up to 25GB
3. Nintendo has already denounced disc based media playback

Jeff is wrong, but let's not put words in the mans mouth he never said.

Learn to read maybe. "Once you are proved wrong about Sony will you then say that Wii U supports UHD."

I never said he said anything about the Wii U. I said that he might say that the Wii U supports UHD.

 

[NewDust]

Learn to read maybe. "Once you are proved wrong about Sony will you then say that Wii U supports UHD."

I never said he said anything about the Wii U. I said that he might say that the Wii U supports UHD.

Yep you're right, my mistake, but I really much doubt he would be willing to claim such a thing.

 

[Negotiator]

https://bitbucket.org/danparrot/x265-ppc-altivec/
It all comes together nicely.

Too bad the Espresso CPU is too weak flops-wise to decode H.265 videos.

If Jeff loses his thread making privileges, he'll just start derailing other people's threads with his 14 paragraphs of copy and pasted techno-babble more so than he already does.

This thread still exists because it's literally a massive landfill for for Jeff's hyper obsessive numerology and firmware based conspiracy theories. As long as this thread exists, it keeps the rest of GAF relatively clean.

If anything, Jeff has earned an epic tag.

Interesting perspective.

 

[Adam Tyner]

No I'm still lurking but I stopped correcting Adam on Technical matters or when he distorts what I say as it's a wasted effort. He was correct when he criticized me for jumping to the conclusion that the XB1 was UHD capable but little else.

There's nothing to correct, and...good lord, the things you've been wrong about are without end. In your own words, then:

Both the PS4 and Xb1 launch Game consoles are listed as UHD capable and will be firmware updated in 2016 (by second week of October).

No indication of this being true.

UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013 but won't be firmware updated to support it till 2016.

Wrong.

A modern HD Blu-ray drive can be firmware updated to support UHD (Version 2 disks)

Wrong.

They do not mention Blu-ray but I think that is understood as the BDA has a whole section on UHD BD-ROM Blu Ray game consoles

Wrong. Poorly founded conclusion to jump to.

A standard blu-ray drive can be firmware updated to support UHD Disks.

Wrong.

Ito of Sony denied the PS4 would support UHD Blu-ray and said the PS4's blu-ray player can't read three layers but all blu-ray players can read 3 or more layers.

Wrong.

True but the Paper's latest version is from 2015 talking about 2013 Game Consoles getting UHD Blu-ray in 2016. You'd think they would edit out or correct if UHD Blu-ray consoles didn't ship in 2013.

Wrong. The papers in question never reference Ultra HD Blu-ray either.

I have not yet made an argument in this thread, I just quoted the 2015 paper that mentioned UHD Game console power use starting in 2013 with UHD Blu-ray media starting in 2016.

Wrong. The papers in question never reference Ultra HD Blu-ray.

Arguments against this in the past have been that the 2013 drive can't support reading a UHD Disk but the 2015 paper belies

Wrong.

Further the BDA (Association that Licences Blu-ray and UHD Blu-ray) lists Game Consoles. Sony has a licence for a PC UHD Blu-ray player and a licence for a UHD Movie Player/Game Console/Test player.

Irrelevant. The existence of a licensing category doesn't mean it'll be used at all, let alone in the launch consoles.

You removed it from the thread, but you posted a GIF of someone flipping a table over, exasperated that people didn't understand that the VR breakout box meant that the PS4 has HDMI 2.0 capabilities until androvsky corrected you:

Your correct I edited my post. It's a kludge that won't be necessary with the NEO or on AMD APUs and dGPUs that support HDMI 2.

So everyone understands the following is confirmed;

UHD Game Consoles shipped in 2013 but won't be firmware updated to support it till 2016..

Not confirmed because it's not true.

Vinc, I am presenting a Paper from an Official representative of Microsoft and Sony to a Official EU Government energy board. In the first page it describes the PS4 and XB1 as UHD Capable Game Consoles.

This is official confirmation echoing the first paper from Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo that UHD game consoles shipped in 2013 as the Power Savings are calculated from that date.

This confirms a Microsoft VP stating in 2013 that the XB1 hardware can support UHD Blu-ray and Sony representatives saying the PS4 can support 4K media and the PS4 has a HDMI 2 port.

This is no longer supported speculation.

Demonstrably a poor conclusion to draw. You're correct that it's not supported speculation since it's not really supported.

Adam, no comment on the Letter to the EU power board from a Sony and Microsoft representative with chart stating the PS4 and XB1 can support UHD. Does this make Ito's comments a lie (NDA) or Ignorance?

Baseless conclusion to draw about Ito's comments, especially since he's commenting on Ultra HD Blu-ray, not UHD in general.

Okay, in the past in this thread the arguments were the PS4 has no HDMI 2 port and no Hardware HEVC. Can we now lay that to rest?

No, because you're wrong.

Does everyone understand that there is no such thing as a UHD drive and that Standard blu-ray drives will be firmware updated to support UHD Blu-ray?

No, because you're wrong.

The reason UHD BLu-ray is not being spelled out and they are using the term UHD Capable is that the UHD delivery scheme is the same for all UHD media using the same open source standards HTML5 <video> MSE EME for the Player, HEVC profile 10 for the codec and HTML5 for the UI The DRM differences for UHD are primarily hardware changes requiring AACS, BD+, Playready and HDCP to be running in a TEE.

Wrong on every front.

If the PS4 and XB1 can support any UHD media they can support them all.... thus UHD Capable.

Fundamentally wrong, as Stacey Spears pointed out.

You mean I'm not going to be allowed to point out how you guys were wrong.

Um...

Newer PS3s can support 24 fps UHD blu-ray with a firmware update except for the DRM requirements.

Wow.

Reading multiple layers is a function of the return strength and focus of the laser and depends more on the disk than the drive. All blu-ray drives can read 3 or more layers.

Nope.

This is by design not accident that standard blu-ray drives can be firmware updated to support Version 2 disks. There are many other technologies that can support MUCH larger volumes and they were not used. The BDA wanted to make it as easy as possible to support UHD Blu-ray.

Nope.

Ignorance has caused articles to insist the Launch PS4 can't support UHD Blu-ray for several reasons; HDMI 2, HEVC and Drive.

Those articles are correct, though.

Again the Console model would be broken in the Launch model didn't support UHD Blu-ray and later models did.

It's obviously not since we have this whole Xbox One S and all.

OK guys. Jeff clearly believed in himself and his theories so let's not start ganging up on him...

Let them, it makes it that much more delicious later.

How's that tasting now?

Chinn, NO ONE brought any evidence to this thread that the Launch consoles would not support ALL UHD media.

Nope.

What reason have you guys for the delay from Jan 2016 when it was scheduled for the Launch consoles to be firmware updated for UHD?

This was never scheduled nor mentioned in any documents. This is a total invention of yours.

The papers I quoted mention the UHD Firmware update for the Launch consoles would occur Jan 2016.

No, they don't.

Yup it is UHD capable and could be firmware updated later after Microsoft buys the licence.

This quote was regarding the Xbox One and is false.

That's the point, there are no physical changes, it's all firmware changes.

This is regarding the optical drive in the launch PS4/XB1. You're wrong.

And then for the less technically minded, the Microsoft VP said in 2013 at the Launch for the XB1 that the Hardware is there to support UHD Blu-ray. Which means he knew that the drive could be firmware updated and the XB1 was UHD Capable. The latter was confirmed with the release of the April 2015 letter I cited.

Wrong.

LG-Hitachi is the only other BD-ROM4 licencee so every UHD Player out now would have to have a drive made by LG-Hitachi.

You're seriously arguing that the Samsung, Panasonic, and Philips standalone players all have drives by Hitachi-LG? For one, there is no way in hell that Samsung would ever build a product using LG hardware.

If the HD blu-ray drive is firmware updateable then there is no additional cost except for HD blu-ray and licence.

Even this hypothetical is untrue (dedicated HEVC decoder, HDMI, HDCP).

There is no such thing as a UHD drive

I hope this gets people to understand that a UHD drive is not expensive.

If there's no such thing as a UHD drive, how do you know the cost?

Only the DRIVE is in question which I am acknowledging.

Nope! Concerns have been repeatedly brought up regarding HEVC decoding, HDMI, and HDCP, all of which you also proved to be incorrect about.

HDR is part of the UHD standard and will be part of every UHD media including media streamed through the browser, UHD Blu-ray, ATSC 3 or Netflix.

There's no such thing as a "UHD standard". There are a variety of different UHD-related standards, but there's no central body dictating standards. The number of UHD displays without HDR and the sheer volume of UHD content without HDR are obvious indications of this.

If you take everything at face value the XB1 is going to support UHD blu-ray and the PS4 isn't. Let the console wars begin if this is true and I'll lose money on the Sony stock I own.

A firmware update happening or not happening for the launch consoles would have zero impact on stock price, and we already know how things shook out for the launch Xbox One.

The papers I have read and cited indicate the game consoles are designed and will implement UHD blu-ray with digital bridge

Nope.

You and others believe a marketing show that states the XB1 slim will be the first console to support UHD BLu-ray means the earlier version won't. What it really means is that the XB1 slim will be the first console to support UHD blu-ray because it has an OS that will not have to be firmware updated.

Wrong.

To dismiss this is to set too high a bar.

It's obviously not!

Regarding Stinkles:

He is stating other issues too which makes him wrong about UHD Streaming support which crosses him off as an authority. Is this only about UHD Blu-ray or UHD media in general? The XB1 Launch has a Software accelerated HEVC codec.

Nope, he was right on every point, and you are, as always, wrong.

1) Microsoft already supports HEVC profile 10 in the Launch XB1. Both consoles have a separate block of GPGPU mentioned by Eurogamer which is likely the Xtensa accelerators.
5) Sony's Intellectual notice has Playready and WMDRM. Microsoft wrote them.
4) Both consoles have a HTML5 browser.
2) only requires a HDMI chip with pass through that supports the HDMI 2 timings as both Consoles have a ARM trustzone TEE. Sony has a custom Panasonic HDMI chip as does Microsoft from Cadence.
3) This should be the easiest with the largest lead time and considering the effort to support HEVC would Microsoft and Sony not contract for a drive that could support the 2010 iMLSE or make one themselves (the Sony blu-ray drive board is made by Sony while the XB1 uses a third party drive. Both are encryption key paired to the Trustzone TEE and Player same as the PS3). The HD player requires the same DRM schemes the UHD player requires but UHD requires they run in the TEE and are more robust; TEE and changes to correct exploits already found and register changes to insure the HD player can't play the UHD media if they are both in the same player (UHD players are backwardly compatible with HD players).

1, 5, 4, 2, 3? Do you know how numbers work? Anyway, swing and a miss all around.

PS4 plus firmware 4.0
4 + 4 = 8

This is part of the reason why everyone laughs at you.

I really do smile and shake my head at the posts in this thread <grin>.

Good for you.

The answer to a question worded that way will be misleading. Better questions are:

what does the XB1 launch use for HEVC and then HDCP2.2?

Nothing that supports Ultra HD Blu-ray!

And yes, Microsoft and Sony get a fee for every streamed movie watched on their console.

Called and continue to call bullshit that Netflix, Hulu, etc. have to pay a fee to Microsoft or Sony every time someone streams a TV show or movie on the PS4/XB1.

I know that it was a trick question. That fees are charged is a given and I documented an article talking about it with reference to smart TVs competing with STBs for those fees. That fees are based on use is also a given. Or do you think that just positioning an APP on the Store generates the revenue. There is such a thing as common sense.

Yes, there is such a thing as common sense, and it's a shame that you lack it.

Regarding the PS4 web browser requiring being signed into PSN:

They were tracking the users interest to help target advertising in the near future.

Tinfoil hat conspiracy nonsense.

I believe you not understanding what UHD blu-ray requires of the hardware makes you feel it would be difficult to support.

I undeniably have a better understanding of it than you.

4) Phil Spencer said the XB1 "S" to launch August 2016 will be the first to support UHD BLu-ray. Which many take to mean the Launch consoles can't. I believe it means the XB1 "S" will be the first, the others are getting firmware updates later.
5) Frank O'Conner has said the Launch XB1 can't support UHD or UHD Blu-ray for many reasons. The no UHD support by O'Conner directly contradicts with official documentation stating they are UHD capable and the firmware update supporting HEVC profile 10..
7) Ito, a Sony VP, said the PS4 does not have HEVC and the PS4 drive can'r read a version two disk with three layers. This could be accurate if both require a firmware update which we know HEVC requires as Microsoft did for the Launch XB1.

All sorts of wrong in here.

You must not understand the technology as you ignore my posts on it.

It doesn't sound like you understand much.

Yes. XB1 "S" launching August is unusual. Baring any other reason did they target the 8th month for China?

As far as I know, the Xbox One S isn't being released in China in August.

HEVC profile 10 is the hardest to support feature needed for UHD Media and The Launch XB1 console already supports it. By comparison, HDCP 2.2 is just software that was already available in 2012 on ARM trustzone TEE supported phones and tablets and it can be used unchanged. The only thing needed for the XB1 is a HDMI chip that supports HDMI2 timing and passes through negotiations to the TEE.

Considering the effort made for HEVC a HD blu-ray drive daughter board that also supports version two disks is not more expensive than a HD board that doesn't.

I believe you not understanding what UHD blu-ray requires of the hardware makes you feel it would be difficult to support. The AMD APU in the XB1 and PS4 is much more powerful than needed to support HEVC, the discussions are about a low power HEVC codec that is required to run in the TEE.

Wrong about HDCP, wrong about HDMI, wrong about HEVC, wrong about the optical drive, and wrong about your understanding of the hardware.

You still don't get it. There will be no such thing as a dedicated/hardware HEVC codec because.

...and yet the Xbox One S has one!

Statements about a hardware codec or dedicated hardware codec immediately raise a red flag.

Why? The Xbox One S has one.

I don't think Ito mentioned a dedicated HEVC codec, just that there was no HEVC codec in the PS4. Since HEVC is a software routine running on the Xtensa accelerator, if the software is not in the PS4 OS a HEVC codec is not in the PS4. I went all over this two years ago.

You were wrong then, and you're wrong now. Ito absolutely did speak about the need for a dedicated HEVC decoder to support Ultra HD Blu-ray.

Regarding what Stacey Spears said:

The Slim includes a HW HEVC decoder, HDMI 2.0a transmitter with HDCP 2.2 support and a new ROM drive that can read the new 33 GB per layer, and triple layer, UHD BD discs.

There was no HDMI 2.0a transmitter available when the console launched. While we were able to get SW UHD HEVC playback working, it used all of the CPUs on the box to make it happen. They were going to launch UHD Netflix last year with the software decoder, but that was cut due to limited resources after the layoff.

Every year there is a new xbox and playstation released. Usually there is no difference from the outside. From the inside it is always cost reduced to make it cheaper to manufacturer. The S is the 3rd generation Xbox One. The integrated power supply is huge.

Historically xbox games are curated for security reasons. With it playing Windows 10 apps, not sure what that means now. There are not a whole lot of Windows 10 apps, so not sure how much that matters.

The new HDMI has everything the previous one did and more. The previous drive was a dual layer BD drive, which is what HD BD supports. The triple layer is new to UHD BD. The software HEVC used all of the CPUs and the GPU to function. Now it just uses a HW HEVC decoder, so no CPU or GPU is used. The software could only do Netflix 24p UHD at 15Mbps. It could not handle UHD BD bitrates or framerates at all.

Yes.... there is something seriously wrong here and it's not with me.

Actually, it is.

The launch XB1 got a HEVC profile 10 firmware update June 2015 which Spears says used all the CPU and GPU resources.

Misquoting. All things HEVC are not created equal.

AMD said the Launch XB1 uses the same hardware Carrizo uses for HEVC support which is UVD 6 and uses Xtensa processors not the CPU or GPU.

A misinterpretation on your part.

How to explain the ignorance in the Spears statements? Is it really Spears or someone impersonating him with some outdated knowledge.

Spears isn't the one who's ignorant.

Spears saying the Launch XB1 uses CPU or GPU for HEVC is so wrong on many levels.

...except he's right.

HEVC encode is extremely processor intensive to the point that realtime encryption was not thought possible till hardware codecs.

Nothing is "encrypted" in HEVC.

h.265 encode is MUCH more processor intensive than decode yet both AMD and Microsoft are touting the XB1 doing flawless HEVC encode for game streaming which has latency concerns they must have also solved.

Not at the scale UHD BD demands.

Spears stated HEVC decode used most of the XB1 CPU and GPU while June 2015 Microsoft and AMD are talking HEVC encode for game streaming which is always more processor intensive than decode. Game streaming CAN NOT USE THE GPU OR CPU as the game is using the CPU and GPU, Game streaming requires dedicated VCE in AMD GPUs for h.264 and somehow Microsoft has a encoder that does HEVC encode at low latency. That is absolutely an amazing job of engineering and we are to assume that Microsoft didn't do the same with the easier decode using Xtensa configurable processors. DRM requires the codec protected in the TEE so the AMD GPU and CPU can not be used for Netflix as Spears tried to allude. Besides which the GCN GPU uses too much power and optimally the GPU will be off for full screen video.

Spears was talking about video with four times the resolution and a potentially massively, massively higher bitrate. Since you have no idea what you're talking about, you're drawing poor comparisons.

You guys are gullible and my TIN hat protects me from those cosmic rays that are interfering with your reasoning.

How are those who pointed out the many, many, many holes in your argument "gullible"? We're right!

Oh, you think the Bink HEVC codec middle ware is false advertising while Spears is accurate. c0de, what do you think? Did you post false advertising? Is Spears talking out of his hat trying to impress by claiming special knowledge?

And we are back to part of my argument is speculation and you could be correct....but I doubt it <grin>.

Chief, Bink != HEVC. Still grinning, though?

Note, a poorly written HEVC codec could max out the CPUs on the XB1. Some of the software codecs in the above cite run on ARM CPUs with less power.

Not at UHD BD resolution/bitrates.

 

[NoWayOut]

Don't give up Jeff, I still believe in you! I want my PS4 to support UHD

 

[Adam Tyner]

Part two:

HEVC Hardware decoders were shipping months before the XB1 shipped. Software for HEVC decode was showing in 2012 more than a year before the XB1 launched. Microsoft hired HEVC software engineers in 2012 and likely consulted with Cadence and AMD on the hardware needed that could run on an ARM Trustzone TEE to accelerate a HEVC software codec.

Those saying that the timeline doesn't work out for the Xbox One to have in-hardware HEVC decoding were proven correct. Also, you said earlier that:

There will be no such thing as a dedicated/hardware HEVC codec because.

..and now you're saying they were shipping months before the Xbox One?

Points confirmed are:

There is a hardware h.264 and HEVC codec encoder in the XB1 APU.

Not confirmed because, at least as far as HEVC encoding, it's not true.

The XB1 HEVC hardware codec encoder does several things. It confirms the IP both hardware and software was available at Launch to support HEVC encode which is harder than Decode. It shows forward thinking support for HEVC YEARS before it can be used as no other platform would support HEVC game streaming till after Carrizo (2016) and Nvidia dGPU (late 2015). These two points, HEVC encode and a Media Hub design helps confirm the EU letter stating the XB1 and PS4 are UHD Capable and my speculation that the PS4 and XB1 will be media hubs for the home network using Vidipath.

Too bad "existing" isn't on your list of the things it does.

So you are denying in print from June 2015 slides from AMD that the XB1 has a HEVC encoder for game streaming because it is too soon to use it and Microsoft is not using it.

Xbox One streaming uses AVC, not HEVC. Yes, I am denying that there's a dedicated HEVC encoder.

Netflix will use the same HEVC encryption for HD and UHD as HEVC profile 10 will be the standard regardless of HD 8 bit media. ALL the media is pre encrypted at three different bandwidths and streamed depending on connection speed. This is why it's HD 10 bit HEVC support for 8 bit media.

Encoded, not "encrypted". Bitrates and resolutions, not "bandwidths". Netflix uses far more than three sets of bitrates/resolutions.

Most of the 4K TVs already sold do not have a HEVC decoder and need a player.

"Most"? Not even close.

A HEVC hardware codec is needed for Latency, Power and Price.

You said HEVC hardware doesn't exist, though. It does!

The PS4 will support DLNA 4.0 with Firmware update 4.0.

You go on to cite a source that never says anything about the PS4, let alone a specific firmware revision. Good work!

Adam, if you want to hold to strict compliance - no speculation, the XB1 Slim is only a rumor and we can not say it will be UHD capable or support UHD blu-ray. We only have a saleman's word for this vs. a Lab test for the Launch consoles.

Those lab tests never took place the way you suggest. Your bizarro-world logic about the Xbox One S is nonsense.

Stacy Spears is not an engineer

Completely false.

Get over it, ALL PS4 and XB1 versions will be UHD capable. The only speculation is now the DRIVE. 14 pages wasted arguing what was obvious.

Nope!

Everything you have posted has been rumor. You are at this point -0- % accurate with a potential to be 33% if the XB1 and PS4 drive can't support UHD Blu-ray and I am 66% accurate and potentially 100%.

This thread is about UHD blu-ray and two of the three hardware requirements have been proved.

Nope!

I am getting tired of this;

It's a signed REPORT from an International Compliance firm. A signed LAB report trumps a sales announcement. They actually had to test the power required while in UHD media mode!!!!!!!

A lab report on UHD media power consumption must play UHD media. If they were through they tested ALL UHD media including streaming and UHD BLu-ray.

Your correct, UHD media was not tested.

The MS VP statement that the XB1 hardware can support UHD Blu-ray you dismiss even though his statement is not in conflict with the above. You are picking and choosing only those that support your position rather than trying to find out why there is a conflict with facts for some of them.

I'm picking and choosing sources based on predetermined conclusions?! That's laugh out loud hysterical coming from you.

JaseC, it's two days later than you chose and I'd prefer to break up the bet into three parts HDMI 2 support, HEVC support and UHD Drive support with the first two by October 13th. The drive support by the end of the year as Sony may opt to wait to support UHD Blu-ray digital bridge. $100 makes it easier for me. You can pay me the $66 by check now as I have already won those parts or you can wait and deduct the $33 if they don't support UHD Blu-ray.

You were wrong about HDMI 2 and HEVC decoding on the level UHD BD requires.

AMD's Carrizo APU and Polaris dGPU are the least expensive way to get UHD media support with Windows 10. The Polaris dGPU has a UVD with HEVC support, same as Carrizo and the XB1 and PS4 Launch game consoles

Nope.

AMD stated they use the same hardware for HEVC that the XB1 uses.

You're misinterpreting that statement.

Who would have thought that the 2013 XB1 has the same HEVC technology that the 2016 Carrizo has. I researched this and it forms part of my understanding of the XB1 Launch console being UHD Capable. The difference in a HEVC HD or UHD codec is the duty cycle/power of the codec hardware accelerator the software is running on.

No one would've thought that because it doesn't.

Adam, where did the VCE encoder in the XB1 that can handle HEVC come from?

It doesn't exist.

They are two separate points that negate the argument that it was too early to have HEVC hardware codecs

It was too early, though.

The XB1 uses the same technology that AMD uses in Carrizo which has a VCE 3 and UVD6.

No, it doesn't.

Adam doesn't even believe they are UHD Capable so I'd really rather bet Adam.

Never said that.

JaseC, For two years in October I have been researching what it takes to support UHD Capable and UHD blu-ray. Early speculation has been confirmed and the only thing left is the blu-ray drive able to be firmware updated.

Wrong.

Because I see this it's "buffoonery"? Not seeing this is myopia of the mind.

Is it, though?

My condescending attitude leaking though in this thread is based on knowing what is coming and it's amusing at times and frustrating at times reading posts in this thread.

You've proven that you know nothing.

Gesh, ADAM, Spears and Ito have been PROVEN to be WRONG!!!!!!!!! The PS4 BD is listed by Sony as BD-R and unless it's a 2008 or earlier drive it's able to read 4 layers with the Panasonic-Sony Tweak = 100 GB 3 layer version 2 disk. You can not use the GCN GPU or X-86 CPU for DRM media....when will you accept this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Check for you self and stop using those cites as authorities....they make you appear pitiful.

Who appears pitiful again?

As to the XB1 slim having blu-ray support, I expected the Launch XB1 to have blu-ray support and the controller to be blu-ray

How is the controller "blu-ray"?

Most CE high end platforms are using blu-tooth for controllers and some have microphones for voice control. Most of the new PCs have blu-tooth and can use a PS4 controller for games.

It's spelled "Bluetooth", chief.

Phil Spencer's statement can stand as accurate as the XB1 Slim will be the first to support UHD blu-ray, the earlier consoles will be firmware updated later.

Nope.

Remember that time you quoted Eurogamer (pre-launch speculation) by way of Wikipedia to prove your point?

The spec appears to be a very close match for the standard BD drives Sony itself currently produces, lending further evidence to the notion that we're looking at a cost-effective 50GB dual-layer unit rather than the more exotic 100GB quad-layer drives said to be coming in the future to accommodate 4K video playback.

...only it said the exact opposite of what you claimed it did? Oh boy.

herod, apply the same strict judgement on Ito and Spears statements and comment on that. If you don't this is a one sided argument not worthy of thinking people.

You mean about Ito and Spears being correct and you being wrong, wrong, wrong?

Stacey Spears

We tried to use the CPU and GPU for a Netflix codec but it was too slow

Spears never said that. In fact, he said the opposite:

The software could only do Netflix 24p UHD at 15Mbps. It could not handle UHD BD bitrates or framerates at all.

This is something that is KNOWN by everyone and it is a huge oversight by Spears showing he is not knowledgeable.

Wrong.

Spears and Ito comments have within them serious errors that are easily confirmed. They also directly conflict with Sony and Microsoft letters as well as a report by an independent lab that the PS4 and XB1 are UHD capable.

No, they don't.

You and others assume Spencer's statement about the XB1 Slim being the first to support HDMI 2 and hardware HEVC as well as UHD blu-ray means more than it does at face value. It will be the first as the others will get firmware updated later. This must be the case if the Launch XB1 and PS4 are UHD capable.

You are wrong.

2) The XB1 can LOW LATENCY game stream HEVC to PCs. Since encoding HEVC is much harder to do that decoding and it has to be low latency, it must be a hardware codec.

There's no indication that the launch Xbox One uses HEVC to stream to PCs with specific hardware while using AVC for everyone else.

UVD 6 is a software based Xtensa DSP accelerated codec in the TEE. It can support HEVC decode.

Irrelevant since it's not in the launch Xbox One or PS4.

Edit: Only the VCE encoder is likely to be AMD provided for the XB1 and PS4.

Regarding HEVC, this is incorrect.

Spears and Ito comments have within them serious errors that are easily confirmed. They also directly conflict with Sony and Microsoft letters as well as a report by an independent lab that the PS4 and XB1 are UHD capable. Yet you continue to defend those statements by Spears and Ito which requires you to ignore/dismiss and claim the official letters are not reliable. You dismiss a slide from AMD and statements from AMD that they use the same technology the XB1 uses for HEVC because Spears and Ito say the Launch XB1 does not have a HEVC codec.

...and who was proven correct in the end?

You and others assume Spencer's statement about the XB1 Slim being the first to support HDMI 2 and hardware HEVC as well as UHD blu-ray means more than it does at face value. It will be the first as the others will get firmware updated later.

None of this is true for the launch Xbox One.

The Forbes article quoting this stating the launch XB1 and PS4 could not support UHD Blu-ray or Netflix UHD is why I started the thread that they would.

...and Forbes was right (undeniably about UHD BD), while you were wrong.

Netflix was talking about a software update to the Launch consoles to support UHD not a Hardware revision that was not supposed to occur till 2017 a year later.

Except for what was actually said:

Hunt said Sony had &#8220;promised&#8221; a hardware rev for the PS

Hardware rev != software update

What Netflix did do was elaborate on Hunt's belief that both PS4 and Xbox One would both "do their traditional two-year hardware refresh" in 2015 and 4K video support would be added.

Hardware refresh != software update

What it shows if the Netflix quote is accurate is that it's waiting on a firmware update. I believe the Netflix quote misunderstood and a firmware update not new hardware was coming to enable UHD. If that is the case then the 2015 PS4 not supporting UHD in 2015 makes sense.

If they meant a firmware update for the launch consoles in 2016, why did they repeatedly say they were talking about hardware revisions in 2015? That's a hell of a mistake to make (repeatedly, even).

Again you are paraphrasing Spencer and Spears post on the same day is mis-understanding what Spencer said.

Spears wasn't replying to Spencer.

Again a day after Spencer's article. Is he in the loop? If he was he would know the Launch XB1 is UHD capable and have critiqued the assumptions based on Spencer's article.

Baseless.

I started by showing a Trustzone TEE containing Xtensa accelerators to support HEVC and HDMI 2's HDCP2.2 were in the XB1 and PS4. I was time and time again called crazy for that view.

The people who called you crazy are correct. You most certainly are wrong.

If we can take Spencer's statement at face value then Microsoft included a UHD blu-ray drive in the Launch XB1 consoles. For sure the changes I read do not require much in the way of electronics so a UHD blu-ray drive should be a HD drive or within pennies of a HD blu-ray drive which lends support to Spencer's statement.

Phil Spencer never said anything remotely along those lines.

Spears making statements about a HEVC codec running on the GPU for DRM media shows he was not involved in any way with DRM media codecs. Ito saying the PS4 drive can't read 3 layers makes his comments equally suspect.

You're wrong on both counts.

The report is for the period from Jan 2015 to Dec 2015 and only HD media was tested. This is why the compliance report from Microsoft lists HD console because until firmware updated in 2016 it's only UHD Capable and only HD media mode is tested.

Totally false for multiple reasons, including the PS4 documents (which still say "UHD Capable") submitted at the same time.

The newer quotes likely have the same source, Spencer who announced the XB1 Slim. That would be Spears and Stinkles.

No, they don't.

Stinkles post is the day after Spencer's and he did try to read the Mount Fuji book but stopped when he got to the part that UHD and HD media are not allowed at the same time. This is because a header for UHD media puts the drive in UHD mode and that mode uses registers differently insuring that HD player routines can not read the drive and in HD mode the UHD player can't read the drive.

Stinkles now makes room for the drive to be firmware update-able but he still has doubts. I don't want to put words in his mouth

Stinkles never said anything along those lines. When I said as much:

Do you have a memory problem. Read back through the thread.

Can't read through the thread to find posts that don't exist and never existed.

ALL modern BD-ROM Blu-ray drives can be firmware updated to read BD-R which support BDXL and version 2 disks which are used for UHD. This confirms Ito comments on the PS4 drive not able to read 3 layers is wrong.

You're wrong.

The PS4 being UHD capable then conflicts with Ito saying the PS4 has no HEVC codec unless you want to assume he is saying, no HEVC codec till firmware updated which is true. Spears talking about using the GPU for a DRM codec confirms he should not be used as a source.

You're wrong.

For Adam's cites and apparently the prevailing opinion to be accurate, you must dismiss any cites from 2013, the EU Government Voluntary power compliance letters, Slides from Microsoft and AMD, Whitepapers, Patents and PDFs from Sony, Microsoft and others as well as descriptions of how AMD supports HEVC and that they have HEVC hardware accelerator blocks and support HEVC encode and decode in their VCE 3 and UVD 6 which are in GCN 1.2 2014 dGPUs and in Carrizo. Or that AMD, Sony and Microsoft are using Xtensa DSP blocks for codecs which can also support Vision processing, VR, OpenVX, HD and UHD blu-ray audio, low power key phrase turn on which explains the custom USB3 port for the cameras and Mics and more.

...or you could just read relevant quotes/articles.

UHD capable is more than just the ability to display 4K.

Not according to the documents you got "UHD Capable" from in the first place:

There was a prevailing opinion that a UHD blu-ray drive is a different animal with stronger laser and much more expensive. If nothing else that impression should have been debunked, any differences between a HD and UHD blu-ray drive are SOFTWARE that may require minor changes to the hardware or not for DRM reasons only as a BD-RE and BD-R drive can read a version 2 UHD disk.

...except for the part where you're completely wrong.

Anyone stating reading three layers is not possible on older drives or that this is the defining property of UHD drives is full of it and should not be accepted as an authority.

Incorrect.

Again, UVD 6 in AMD dGPUs and Carrizo does not have a hardware decoder for HEVC regardless of what articles are saying.

You are, of course, wrong.

I seriously doubt the XB1 slim has a hardware HEVC decoder codec as that would be a waste of silicon. It's more likely a software accelerated with Xtensa DSPs that have dedicated blocks that support a more efficient HEVC decode.

You're wrong.

Doesn't matter, he said the drive in the PS4 could not read three layers, that is either a NDA misdirection or incompetence

He's not the one who's incompetent.

I said Ito statements need to be looked at understanding that the PS4 has a BD-ROM/BD-R drive and it can read 3 layers so that makes ALL his statements suspect. I said his wiggle room might be that there is no HEVC codec in the PS4 until it's firmware updated. I don't remember him saying a dedicated hardware codec is needed but in that case he is likely wrong again.

How many times do you have to be reminded that Ito explicitly talked about the need for HEVC decoding in-hardware? You're wrong about the drive, of course.

So when Ito says: "new H.265 decoder than the H.264 decoder, which is mounted on the APU of the PS4" it's again wrong. If it's about a Encoder it's correct. Translation error? It's entirely possible that the PS4 APU does not have a VCE 3.1 as Liverpool (GCN 1.1) did not have one.

Nope, you're wrong.

The three layer lens upgrade does not make sense. The lens only focuses the laser on the disk. The pickup does not use a custom lens as reflections from all three layers are in the returned light. The delay in the pulsed light determines the layer with the DSP filtering the layer being read. The disk is more important than the drive in multi-layer disks as the top layers have to allow light through to lower layers while reflecting only a portion back to the pickup. It would seem that the lowest layer (third layer) would have the most returned light and be easiest to read.

You're obviously wrong.

I find the Albert Penello statements confusing just as I do the others you cite. Multiple articles confirm even 2008 drives can read multiple layers (over 4), the layers are not an issue, the Mark length and the DSP upgrade was/is the issue with drives prior to 2011-2012.

Golly, it wasn't confusing to everyone else who's been pointing out these issues for ages. Hell, Ito said this almost a year ago.

I feel queezy even quoting Penello on this as it does not make sense.

Doesn't make sense to you, perhaps.

Microsoft bought off the shelf older drives rather than contract for drives that would be used on all XB1's going forward.....Microsoft 2013 XB1s can't read UHD version 2 disks with game media that do not require HDMI 2 or UHD HEVC?????? This is so stupid as to be unbelievable! Going froward there will never be a 100GB disk or there will be separate disks for 2013 XB1s and everything that follows. Stupid or Penello is making this part up.....

Wow.

I still see flaws in everyone's statements you cite.

That it's beyond your understanding doesn't mean it's not true.

Best guess was that it was a business decision with cost to implement UHD support on the 2013 XB1 more than waiting till 2016.

We already have an explanation why.

 

[c0de]

Too bad the Espresso CPU is too weak flops-wise to decode H.265 videos.

ARM trustzone, xtensa and HTML tags will do the work!

 

[OdysseusVA]

I feel like Jeff will end up being like

 

[c0de]

Post of Death.

I don't remember which thread but I argued with Jeff that the bone will just include an asic that will decode 4k media while he was trying to infer an apu change because of the southbridge or something like this.
I really want to meet him in person, once. In a bar, where we can drink a beer.