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UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013
- Thread starter jeff_rigby
- Start date
Bits N Pieces
Member
The last couple of posts.....
shinobi602
Member
Goddayum.
Wildarmsjecht
Member
L Totto sent me.
Mother. Of. GOD.
That level of ether is legendary.
Mother. Of. GOD.
That level of ether is legendary.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
funkystudent
Member
God damn Adam Tyner
Someone has needed to do that for a while.
Someone has needed to do that for a while.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Adam's two part rebuttal is amazing, unfortunately Jeff is immune to logic and facts.
Even if he abandons this thread, he will hide for a bit, wait for an influx of juniors, and slowly try to rebuild his fanbase with impenetrable walls of techno-babble that make him seem like he knows what he is talking about.
Even if he abandons this thread, he will hide for a bit, wait for an influx of juniors, and slowly try to rebuild his fanbase with impenetrable walls of techno-babble that make him seem like he knows what he is talking about.
I never claimed to be an authority, in fact, I believe I caveated my very first statement with that, but that's actually important. Because I have a slightly better than layman's knowledge of both the public and internal understandings of the hardware, which with about two minutes of reading, would lead any sensible person to conclude that the original consoles, both of them, cannot be upgraded through software or firmware to achieve the playback and correct display of UHD optical media. It's physically unfeasible.
What could be possible, however, is that an incredibly expensive program could be created, whereby users send in their machines, hardware and firmware components are upgraded and replaced, including drives, GPUs, controllers and more. Those consoles could then be shipped back to consumers. This would cost more than simply buying the new console, but I feel it's important to point this out, so that the thread can keep going!
SocksAndShoes
Banned
Wow....this thread is some epic shit.
JeffG
Member
So you are saying there still is a chance.
exmachina64
Banned
Thank you, Adam.
SmartWaffles
Member
Adam you are on fire.
whitemex88
Member
Theonik
Member
At least it hasn't bled toooo much into other threads.
Adam Tyner
Member
For what it's worth, I was content to leave things as they were until:
Bullying? If you call someone trying their damnedest to correct misinformation then bullying it is...
What?
God damn Adam this thread got epic.
If Jeff had any pride he would delete his account right now.
SystemUser
Member
No way.
Sure, half the issue is resolved. But is the whole issue resolved?
What about the Wii U? It is curious that Nintendo has not commented on whether the Wii U will have a firmware upgrade to allow it to play UHD Bluray. I interpret Nintendo's silence on this subject as implicit affirmation that the Wii U will pla UHD Bluray movies after a firmware update.
At this point I am sure that is what the U in Wii U stands for. Checkmate. The ball is in your court Howard Lincoln.
NeOak
Member
Mutanthands
Member
Damn. That was stone cold man. Justified, 70's Revenge Thriller level cold.
TransTrender
Gold Member
I wonder if the jeff_rigby character has a real job in a tech industry because he must be a goddamn nightmare to deal with. Like nobody would ever want him on their programs or on a sign off review board because he just seems insufferable.
Indeed.
I said before, and I'll state this again: If Jeff stopped treating those who could show definitively what the score was regarding UHD Support with utter contempt, we wouldn't have this situation.
Instead he's drawn the ire he has and deservedly so. There's nothing wrong with a bit of speculation. But when you're proven wrong, you concede. You do not double down and try to find any thread to pull on to keep a failed argument going.
CosmicQueso
Member
NeOak
Member
Wait!
Since the Vita has an ARM CPU, that means... Vita confirmed UHD capable!
You heard it here first folks!
lmao
GAF has a history of calling out bullshit. Anyway lets revisit this in October/firmware 4.0
Stevey
Member
jeff_rigby
Banned
I started this thread with the first efficientgaming.eu paper that did not mention which game console was UHD Capable but charts had it starting in 2013 with Navigation power cap unchanged from 2013 to 2019 while UHD media was to be supported in 2016 with a firmware update.
Given previous console refreshes (Navigation power mode would drop with a node reduction) this meant at least one of the 2013 game consoles were UHD Capable. With NEO increasing the number of CUs at the next node this is an incorrect assumption but that was not known at the time.
Adam and others argued that UHD was not UHD but was the same as the PS3 supporting HDMI 1.3 or 1.4 or UHD at 30Hz. This was in error.
Next paper found, a letter to the EU power board mention the XB1 and PS4 as UHD capable.
Same argument from Adam, argument still wrong.
Next an independent lab compliance report on both the XB1 and PS4 actually mentioned the 2013 XB1, PS4 and 2015 PS4 by model number as UHD Capable with the same power caps. Shortly later another person found the Microsoft compliance report which labeled the XB1 as a HD console. This was proof according to Adam that the XB1 was a HD console and he ignored a similar Sony compliance report calling the PS4 UHD capable. He was apparently right for the XB1 but I assumed an error on the part of the person filling out the Compliance report on HD media. If the Sony author of it's compliance report is not in error then the 2013 and/or 2015 PS4 is a UHD capable console.
Power caps and a change in what a node refresh means with a move to the Apple model makes my early assumptions inaccurate. The only thing we can take from the first letter is that the PS4 and XB1 were always planned to be UHD capable EVENTUALLY.
Arguments on how HDMI 2, HDCP 2.2, HEVC and UHD Drive would be supported and when they would be possible were occurring in the previous thread and this one at the same time. I showed what and where HDCP 2.2 was and where it would be supported with the HDMI chip just passing HDCP negotiation to the TEE with the HDMI chip just having to support the timing for UHD.
HEVC profile 10 for HD media is the exact same HEVC software for UHD media with less powerful software decoder hardware. This was released for the 2013 XB1 June 2015 which shows HEVC for UHD was possible in the launch consoles but more expensive without 5 blocks of hardware acceleration in the Microsoft 2013 HEVC hardware accelerator spec. Adam and others keep calling this a Hardware HEVC decoder but it's an analog of the AMD UVD 6 which is a hardware accelerated software codec decoder and those same 5 hardware blocks in the Xtensa DSP can be used for other codecs. VCE3 is a pure HEVC hardware codec encoder.
The UHD drive needs to read a version 1.4 disk (25/50 GB) and a version 2 disk (33/66/100 GB) which a 2011 BD-R with V3 2010 compliant firmware can read. From every cite I have found a BD-ROM drive can be firmware updated to read BD-R media as happened to the 2006 PS3 BD-ROM upgrade to BD-R version 2 in 2008. This is also what the PS4 drive currently supports, a 2008 standard??, but at 6X speed which the PS3 2006 drive can't support.
I didn't know of the other UHD disk media FORMAT requirements till after I read the Mount Fuji drive book version 9 which had the changes from version 8 to version 9 for BD-ROM4 drives. It includes version 2 disks and changes to the Register addresses in the drive making a disk in UHD mode unreadable for a HD player and the reverse. This may or may not require a new DSP chip.
Reading three layers is not an issue as 2008 drives could read 4 and more layers with firmware update (Cited) and the 2010 patent I cited also mentions 4 layer disks (Coming with BD-R 2010 specs) can be read but when you add reduced mark length a change to the firmware is required or the drive may not read a version 2 4 layer BDXL disk reliably. The patent was to invert track information on a version 2 disk so that only drives that had been firmware updated could read the version 2 disk.
Ito said the PS4 drive can't read three layers and the PS4 manual has the PS4 with a BD-ROM/BD-R drive that can read the 2008 V2 standard but not the 2010 V3 standard for version 2 disks. So he is correct, Sony produced a drive that can read at 6X+ speed which means it has twice the RAM cache and a newer DSP chip but it has the same firmware version the PS3 has. Sony would not have firmware updated the drive until after the UHD drive specs were published in 2015 and it makes no sense to do so until after a PS4 firmware update to support UHD blu-ray if possible.
This is the most epic post.
You're so incredibly mental, it's unbelievable.
jeff_rigby
Banned
If I were a mod, and I've been one on Compuserve in the 80's, I would be looking at how much information is brought to the thread and how accurate. A difference of opinion on what the information means keeps the thread going. If I had posted that the Launch PS4 and XB1 couldn't support UHD media, the thread would be dead in about 5 pages of complaints. We already had two threads that did this.
If the Netflix rumor that a PS4 was coming at the end of 2015 that would support UHD is true then it's the 2015 PS4 with the updated Southbridge. That it was not firmware updated and available for Netflix to use in 2015 has caused many including Adam to assume that version can't support UHD either or as he said paraphrased, a break needs to be made for UHD support and only NEO going forward will support UHD or the consumer will be confused. This confusion for the consumer comes with the Apple model. I think there is a PS4 "slim" coming this holiday season further confusing the issue and this was rumored after Adam made his statement.
But with respect you've just created a thread and piled info dump after info dump after info dump into it and used the information to imply what could be possible with it despite the chances of it being accurately applied being .1%
I could created a thread with 300 accurate biological and sociological reasons of how I've had the capabilities since 2013 to have a threesome with Emily Blunt and Margot Robbie, but I'd expect to be shot down by those with realistic expectation.
Chû Totoro
Member
Adam Tyner
Member
You didn't title this thread "UHD Capable Consoles shipped in 2013". If a console can, say, stream movies or TV shows in UHD but can't play Ultra HD Blu-ray discs, it's irrelevant to the subject at hand. FWIW, it hasn't been demonstrated that the launch version of either console will ever be able to stream in UHD either.
You put enormous stock in sources that make no reference whatsoever to Ultra HD Blu-ray.
You put enormous stock in sources that only in passing make any reference to UHD in any capacity.
You frequently put stock in sources based on a few scattered words rather than complete sentences (the AMD slides; the efficientgaming.eu letters).
You cite sources that are not worth referencing (such as the Eurogamer pre-launch speculation about what hardware may be in these consoles).
You invest meaning in citations that are nowhere to be found within them.
You have a tendency to misquote and misattribute; not minor errors but so severe as to fundamentally alter their meaning.
You willingly blind yourself to any statement, no matter how credible, that contradicts with your predetermined conclusions. This extends to calling reputable employees of Microsoft and Sony incompetent and liars when...well, it's been very clearly demonstrated who here is incompetent.
You fundamentally cannot comprehend the difference between fact and speculation. If you think something may be technically possible, it's a certainty, to the point where you can even assign a launch date to it.
You demonstrably do not understand much of what you read and cite, which is why virtually every last thing you've posted in this thread is woefully incorrect. Did you not see the dozens upon dozens upon dozens of your mistakes earlier in the thread that I quoted?
Even worse, despite your inability to comprehend what you've read, you snidely correct people about things when they're right and you're the one who fails to understand!
You are a toxic presence on this forum, and it's no wonder that you've been laughed out of and/or banned from so many technically-oriented message boards.
My argument is and always has been that you're putting too much stock in these letters, that they make no reference to UHD BD and scarcely reference UHD at all, and that you're claiming that they say things that they never actually do. How am I wrong?
If the letters are such bulletproof resources, why don't they consistently list the Xbox One as "UHD Capable" across the board? Even then, they make no mention whatsoever of Ultra HD Blu-ray, which is, of course, the subject at hand.
I didn't ignore it at all. Case in point:
The Sony letter said the same thing earlier letters had. The Microsoft letter said something different. The topic of conversation was the Microsoft letter because of the change in direction. Remember? Here's a reminder:
That's not even taken out of context either. What a bizarre, irrational reaction.
It's only relevant to this thread if it's about Ultra HD Blu-ray and then only for the 2013 release. The 2015 revision has no place in this discussion.
Nothing about your early assumptions is accurate.
...and all of your beliefs about this being able to be updated via firmware are wrong.
You said earlier that hardware HEVC decoding didn't exist. Wrong. You said if any resolution/bitrate of HEVC can be decoded, then all resolutions/bitrates can be decoded by that same device. Wrong. You've been wrong so many times on this subject that you have zero credibility as any sort of expert on it, and the same frankly goes for every other aspect of this discussion.
This is why you should stop passing off your guesswork and speculation as fact. You have no idea what you're talking about, and all you're accomplishing is spreading misinformation.
That's not what I said at all. I only took issue with the idea that the 2015 iteration would be able to play Ultra HD Blu-ray discs while being all but indistinguishable visually from earlier hardware releases. That's not an ability you can easily market. I was totally open to the possibility of the 2015 version being able to stream Netflix in UHD. I'm not saying it can, but if that ability were announced, I wouldn't be caught off-guard. To sell physical media on any sort of meaningful scale, consumers need the certainty of knowing they can play it. Having it added to a subset of consoles without any clear delineation is a bad idea. Netflix (and Hulu, Amazon Video, etc.) is an entirely different beast.
Given that your accuracy in this thread hovers somewhere around 0% across nearly 200 posts, how do you think the mods would view what you've posted?
RaoulDukeGonzo
Member
Adam going all in! Kudos, sir.