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UK General Election - 8th June 2017 |OT| - The Red Wedding
- Thread starter Jezbollah
- Start date
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To be honest i doubt either May or Corbyn would retailiate. They only nuclear retaliation from the UK would happen if the UK is directly affected.
I wouldn't say he is completely wrong.
Having nuclear weapons is definitely stopping russia from trying all out conventional war. Will it stop possible incursions into the baltics? Probably not.
Will nukes keep russia from completely invading Poland trying to rush Berlin? Definitely.
During the cold war every NATO defense plan planned for nuclear weapons use after soviet forces reach a certain area (IIRC it was the rhine) and i doubt that has changed. Conventional invasion or not.
Don't let the nuclear idiots distract you from the fact Theresa May lied all through her QT appearance.
Theonik
Member
We didn't even defend a state that signed a nuclear disarmament treaty with us in exchange for protection. First strike escalation policy has been off the table since second strike SLBMs and MAD doctrines became practical. Because the other side has to assume you are insane to escalate with nukes. This is how nuclear geopolitics has worked since the 70s.
Huw_Dawson
Member
So what you're saying is is that NATO is entirely pointless and Germany is totally defenseless. If we will only nuke in response to being nuked ourselves, then the rest of the world which is not a nuclear-armed nation is defenceless. Russia can turn around tomorrow and say "if anyone stops me invading Germany, I will nuke them."
How do you reconcile that with no first strike?
Now, if memory serves China's policy is quite clever in that "if anyone else uses nuclear weapons we'll just f-ing end you all". Which is useful for China, but it doesn't help Germany not be invaded by Russia.
He's that posh boy in school that fancied himself a fighter. Spoiler they end up crying and grassing.
Audioboxer
Member
Followed up with https://twitter.com/nickfthilton/status/870754077759741952
Boris Johnson is best described as a "pure fanny".
We have a dead man's switch in operation iirc.
FortuneFaded
Member
It's a brave new world Farid. Live by the bomb or die by the bomb.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I don't think you understand quite what you're trying to argue. You spent some time defending GA, but what you've said above doesn't describe GA, it just describes MAD but with the UK acting as part of a bloc instead of individually - these are separate things.
If Russia invaded Germany conventionally, we would not use nukes. Why? Because if we did use a nuke, then Russia would respond with a nuke. This is worse for both us and Germany than if we hadn't used a nuke, since nuclear holocaust is worse than conventional war - some people get to survive conventional wars. Instead, if Russia invaded Germany conventionally, we would meet Russia in a conventional war. UK foreign policy understands this, and it's why our strategic priority is the Baltic states and Poland, and why most security reports consistently emphasize the importance of our conventional military. This is an example of why GA doesn't work.
If Russia issued a first-strike nuclear attack on Germany, we would respond with nuclear weapons
probably, not underestimating our recent isolationist streak
Dirtyshubb
Member
I have been quite active on Twitter for once due to the election and the amount of despicable ukip/tory racists often have a tonne of followers.127k followers for that shittastic Twitter account.
GAF, we need to let you know, voting for Corbyn means
1) Security risk as we can't nuke the world
2) There will be languages heard on the street that aren't English
3) Remoaner Farron and Anti-English Sturgeon propping up the #coalitionofchaos
They must all be desperate for confirmation so follow each other.
The amount of hypothetical nonsense question time audiences spout is ridiculous.
People ate up far too much time tonight on things that neither party ARE particularly campaigning on -
Namely:
- Why don't we leave our trade relationships in tatters by paying no divorce fee?
- "I WILL be voting Tory, but I'm upset by foreign aid donations to who knows what who knows where, that represent fucking buttons in spending" (although it WAS interesting she didn't have a clue)
- Can we not pay foreign aid in British manufacturing?
- Why haven't you signed a letter to Donald Trump?
- SAY YOU WILL KILL MILLIONS IN THERMO NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST
It reminded me of the Harry and Paul sketch parodying Question Time.
Not near enough scrutiny of the respective manifestos, Dimbleby allowed May to waffle and eat up the clock on some of the biggest softball questions, and too much time was eaten up by partisan members of the public trying to be angry for TV and score some kind of point through literally the most ridiculous arguments committed to the airwaves.
Our democracy is dead if not dying if this is the level of political discourse that passes for holding power to account.
Only the old cunts that make up the largest voting population...
Look at the polling data on the subject of bringing back the death penalty. This country is pretty disgusting.
corbyn is quite popular now so they are really going after diane abbott and mentioning her constantly
Audioboxer
Member
Davidson trying to aim for the retweets
https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP
Sorry rUK, our contribution to the Conservative Party is just as bad. Those desperate retweets about Corbyn.
Seems that way, but at least Corbyn > May for followers!
https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP
Sorry rUK, our contribution to the Conservative Party is just as bad. Those desperate retweets about Corbyn.
Seems that way, but at least Corbyn > May for followers!
Little Old Man
Member
Where do you think the stereotypes/memes about 'possible nuke area' come from? There's plenty of armchair generals in the world who talk like that.
Sorry did you fart Davidson?Davidson trying to aim for the retweets
https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP
Sorry rUK, our contribution to the Conservative Party is just as bad. Those desperate retweets about Corbyn.
Go ride in your impractical vehicle, I heard it's an ice cream van on waterskis for this weeks photo op.
Watch out for the scary black woman!
Diane Abbot might not actually be competent but the Tories are not really on stable ground when Boris buffoon Johnson is the Foreign Secretary.
and btw London should be ashamed they voted for that moron as mayor.
Almost guaranteed to be the next big thing for the far/authoritarian right wing, after immigration.
They're not even trying anymore, are they? Either still drunk on hubris or running scared.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
It depends what you mean by "all-out". If conventional warfare was going to have a death toll and cost equivalent to nuclear holocaust, then there's no reason not to start a nuclear holocaust, and so in that sense it becomes a part of mutually assured destruction. But conventional warfare doesn't look so much like that; it looks rather a lot more like Ukraine, which has had 'low' death toll and was very definitely less bad than a nuclear holocaust. Put another way: it is very definitely not nuclear weapons deterring Russia from invading the Baltic states. It is the conventional military ability of European states (which is why we have a lot of reason to be worried, since that ability is not especially good...).
No, what I'm saying is i don't believe the May or Corbyn would risk the UK getting nuked to retailiate for Berlin nuking because first Germany is defacto a nuclear power with access to ~20 US nukes in Germany and second is covered by the greater US and French(they even offered the germans a shared nuclear program multiple times) nuclear umbrella.
A Ukranian style attack wouldn't really work in the baltics though because Russians would have to commit way too many resources if they're faced against NATO troops compared to ukrainians.
I don't see any scenario in which a Russian attack on the baltics could be successful without a larger operation on their full western front.
Russian aggression is never gonna be contained within the baltics which questions at which point do you start to use nuclear weapons (NATO historically always planned use of nuclear weapons on member state territory (in the cold war it was Germany, i reckon now it's Poland).
Theonik
Member
Hey the west had actual generals that thought like that so it's nice to think that only the public are morons.
But alas. The public is allowed to vote on our collective destiny and so our species continues to suffer.
while i'm voting labour, i don't see an argument you can make about diane's competence or history of eccentric views that doesn't also apply to john mcdonnell, yet the white man won't get the same public derision as the black woman
like they've clearly got polling that people really dislike diane abbott, but it's a massive dogwhistle to pander to it like this
Indeed. She was actually dreadful despite not really having that many tough questions asked of her. She almost didn't answer a question properly at any point, but Dimbleby didn't seem that interested in calling her up on it, nor allowing follow up questions to nail her to the spot. It was interesting, compared to the infinitely better run Sky News QuestionTime style part with Faisal Islam, how much time was allowed on frankly quite tired topics (Brexit and Trident), and how little was for schools, the NHS, and the economy.
Either way, May certainly didn't have a good night. Anyone implying she did is frankly laughably biased. The positive for her is purely that Corbyn didn't do well either. Having said that, I'm inclined to say people are being a bit too gloomy. It definitely was an opportunity missed but realistically the only thing that will stick is the stuff about Trident almost everyone already knew about. There's a good chance Labour will be able to continue onwards and upwards from here I think. A hung parliament is still, just about, feasible, I reckon.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Insufficiently radioactive.
Miles Quaritch
Member
And all anyone will be talking about over the weekend is Corbyn being weak on nuclear holocaust.
The reality is that brain drain can have an impact on the economy. So a lot of that sentiment comes from a sort of protest by denying the country their skills. If the moral values of a country seems too intolerable to work with the last resort becomes denying them of your personal value.
The reality is that old conservative voters don't see or don't care about the long term impact the lack of skilled workers can have. Jeremy Corbyn has caught onto it but it seems like the electorate don't want to listen to him. They'd rather test whether he'd push a big red button.
Theonik
Member
How can Corbyn negotiate a strong and stable brexit when he won't even nuke Brussels.
Miles Quaritch
Member
He should've squared up to him, just for the video of Boris bitching out like all conservative 'hard men'...
What a scary world
These old people don't realise wtf they are saying.
They probably don't care since they now their time is up
Coriolanus
Banned
these things are linked, wot with foreigners being the ones that would be nuked. No great surprise.
Heck, wouldn't be surprised if most of the voting pop found the idea of nuking territory occupied by isis quite decent.
Audioboxer
Member
What happens if we nuke the foreigners? 2 for 1? 🤔
They would rather die in a nuclear holocaust than live with Theresa's failing NHS and social care policies.
Hmmmm.... Maybe they are rational after all.
Miles Quaritch
Member
I honestly don't know why nuclear weapons suddenly became such a hot button issue.
Literally out of fucking nowhere.
Middle England is flash flooded with spunk.
Because the tories have been attacking him on it, and running with that theme, in the right wing press for months.
Never talked to a Tory voter? 3/4 are usually in favour of Trident renewal. So of course this will be a clash of opinions.
It's either the ace up their sleeve, or a last desperate struggle to stem the vote haemorrhaging. Either way, the name of the game is fear.
Audioboxer
Member
But they might fire a nuke at us? We'll need to investigate if Corbz will push the button at least 3 times.
There's some of the country who support renewal, then there is mad cunts on the TV like this
https://twitter.com/WeahsCousin/status/870747044578807809
because it plays into the empire wankery vision of the world these people still think exists.
Audioboxer
Member
Does anyone think any of these nutters go home and then see themselves gone viral online and think, maybe I've made a huge mistake?
Like, even one of them at any point? Any of those interviewed on TV around Brexit, or the nuclear weapons lads and men tonight? Just one? Even the rich kid turned "I'm on a zero hour contract" having a change of heart and thinking I shouldn't tell lies on national TV?
Or do they all get home and pat themselves on the back and light a cigar and shout "STRONG AND STABLE"?
Like, even one of them at any point? Any of those interviewed on TV around Brexit, or the nuclear weapons lads and men tonight? Just one? Even the rich kid turned "I'm on a zero hour contract" having a change of heart and thinking I shouldn't tell lies on national TV?
Or do they all get home and pat themselves on the back and light a cigar and shout "STRONG AND STABLE"?
I'm sure they're thrilled that they got to be on TV "telling it like it is" or something
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