Dorsal Axe
Member
Yeah, none of the papers are running with it, surprisingly. So that's something.
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UK General Election - 8th June 2017 |OT| - The Red Wedding
- Thread starter Jezbollah
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ferrasvansen
Member
I think they have realised every time they attack him, it results in Labour vote increasing as folk realise he is a decent bloke who has his beliefs, regardless if people agree or disagree with them. Can't believe I'm writing this, but he has really grown on me. Will still vote SNP for sure, but if I lived in England I would vote Labour.
If they're reading the mail then they're probably already voting Conservative, so that won't lose too many votes.
Last night looked like a disaster for Corbyn, still hoping Tories go into a minority government though.
Damn, is that salary fairly normal for Devs in Germany?
Dirtyshubb
Member
Amen.
I'm sick and tired of Conservatives and their enablers pretending to be caring when they are all willing to ignore the terrible truth of their results and systematic destruction of the poor and marginalised in the hope of 'a strong economy' and now not being 'good on defence' (meaning killing millions of people).
Fuck the Conservatives and fuck anyone who helps them continue their destruction of this country and the erosion of decency.
WhateverItTakes
Banned
It's good to see. Was still incredibly disheartening to see all those people raving.
On a personal note I finally understood Corbyn's stance. While I was saying he should just say yes to the question, he tries to explain that the minute we're in a situation where we could be throwing nukes at eachother, it's pretty much all over already. So diplomacy is the best prevention mechanism.
Makes me wonder what else I've been looking at the wrong way...
All the nuclear weapon stuff makes my blood boil.
There's no legitimate use for them beyond some crazy plague, animal/alien/zombie infestation, or colossal space object on collision course with Earth, or (insert favourite movie scenario here) where limited use of the weapons might actually help preserve the human race rather than destroy it.
Use for warfare on civilian targets, 1st strike or retaliatory, is a war crime in any scenario.
I see the talk of it yesterday has triggered Labour/CND supporters to share links to Threads around Facebook today, which probably isn't a bad thing.
There's no legitimate use for them beyond some crazy plague, animal/alien/zombie infestation, or colossal space object on collision course with Earth, or (insert favourite movie scenario here) where limited use of the weapons might actually help preserve the human race rather than destroy it.
Use for warfare on civilian targets, 1st strike or retaliatory, is a war crime in any scenario.
I see the talk of it yesterday has triggered Labour/CND supporters to share links to Threads around Facebook today, which probably isn't a bad thing.
Audioboxer
Member
I hope FB does another election special after this lol.
To cut a long story short I guess what I'm saying is it's Corbyn's view. Everyone knows it's his view. You can disagree with him, but I don't know why some seem to expect him to answer differently when they ask.
The way people ask him the questions is as if they expect a nuclear war in the next few years. I don't think they really do, it's just a way to pile on Corbyn and take away from other things. Although with some of those guys last night it's hard to tell.
He has a series in the same format that starts on BBC2 after the polls close:
https://youtu.be/6TztQJuCpI8
Audioboxer
Member
BBC2? Hah. That's an upgrade from being stuck on iPlayer only lol.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Because it is Labour Party policy, agreed on democratically by the Labour party. Moving away from retaliation was supported by 7.3% of constituency delegates. Given his response to Paxman that he's "not a dictator", this smacks of hypocrisy. He's put his personal cause above and beyond the causes of those he was elected to represent.
It's not even that I disagree especially strongly with his stance, it's that his importance was in moving beyond the Blairite, top-down model of political parties. Now, we're reverting to type, even if it comes from a different wing.
SNP 'caused' that in 1979 because Labour lied to them, and then put in the dead men vote no clause into the devolution referendum.
Apparently Frankie Boyle has blocked me on Twitter. My account with 0 followers and 0 tweets.
Audioboxer
Member
Policy is to renew it, not necessarily hit a button non-stop. That's already a compromise from Corbyn's own views. I really don't think it's smart on anyone's behalf to invoke the dictator question and defence. If anyone truly thinks that's relevant to Corbyn I'd ask them to go into higher education and study history and see some real dictators. Anyway, one of the blokes from QT can just be on standby to be airlifted in and furiously hit the button when the time comes in 4 months.
He's trying to turn the Labour Party into something more desirable than the shower of shit it's been for years. Aka something actually different than Tory-lite. If the people ultimately want more of the same then the people will get that. I just despair for the rUK if not enough realise how the UK has been for many years now has got us to where we are. Unless you think we're doing amazing. That extends back to previous Labour control as well.
Let the young lass state it well https://twitter.com/MhairiBlack/status/755129093859840000
Darkstorne
Member
Except not even remotely true. This is the problem with social media politics (and it's even happening in this thread) where supporters of one party exaggerate the concerns of other voters until they sound ridiculous.
Of course Tory voters and undecideds wants a £10+ minimum wage, but they aren't convinced Labour can provide that AND eliminate tuition fees, AND renationalise railways, AND renationalise the Royal Mail (why does anyone even want that?), AND massively increase NHS funding, AND increase police jobs by 10k, etc. The manifesto sounds amazing, but in many ways it sounds too good to be true. It reads more like a wishlist.
Regarding nuclear weapons, of course no one wants any leader to use them, except for that one guy last night apparently who thinks bombing and strikes should be pre-emptive, and that we should bomb everyone before they can bomb us... But the majority of the population understands the world has ended up in this shitty situation where nuclear bombs are pointed at everyone and it's scared countries away from world war ever since the heartbreaking end to WW2 subjugated a nation. But we're not yet at a point where world leaders trust each other enough to dismantle their nukes one by one and trust that every other leader is doing the same thing. Russia and North Korea in particular have shown some pretty worrying signs lately that aggression towards the west is still a big point of interest for them. I love that Corbyn is interested in looking for the SOLUTION to this massive problem we all have today, but it's absolutely not the right time yet to say as PM he would never use a nuke. No sane person wants anyone to use them, but they lose their use as a deterrent if other leaders know you won't ever use them, and that weakens NATO states as a whole in this case.
I'm an undecided voter, leaning towards Labour for their promise to carry over all EU environmental legislation (huge issue for me), but both of the above are minor concerns of mine, and it shouldn't be difficult to understand why.
hydrophilic attack
Member
The fuck does the UK need nukes for anyway. Who the fuck cares if your little island has nukes or not? And you're not a big player on the world stage anyway. Seems very anachronistic
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I never said non-stop. The key word is in retaliation. And if you're not going to use it in retaliation, why even bother renewing it? There would be no point whatsoever. It is an implicit truth that voting to renew Trident is endorsing multilateralism and a retaliatory mechanism.
Now, I'm personally not especially worried by this. I think that the United States' nuclear umbrella would cover us, even under Trump, and while I think we do have some duty to ensure that the United States doesn't bear the cost of sheltering NATO members alone, I'm not going to die on the hill defending multilateralism - it's a low priority issue to me.
What is important to me is that my party is a democratic party and it respects internal democratic procedures. It is the fact that Corbyn has explicitly contravened this that is so disappointing. The SNP have basically no internal party democracy anyway, so I suppose it doesn't mean much to you, but to some of us, it is important.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Labour saying they would scrap tuition fees is a the funniest thing I've read this year tbh lol
hydrophilic attack
Member
Why? The rest of Europe can do it really easily
Doctor_Thomas
Member
Scrapping tuition fees is a great idea.
It allows you to get people into education, without the worry of cost of education, which results in a more educated work force who don't end up having to pay off their tuition fees once they hit certain wage bands, which means they are able to spend more and put more money away for the future.
It's literally a win/win.
It allows you to get people into education, without the worry of cost of education, which results in a more educated work force who don't end up having to pay off their tuition fees once they hit certain wage bands, which means they are able to spend more and put more money away for the future.
It's literally a win/win.
Theonik
Member
Germany did. Why can't we. In fact we already kinda do but like to pretend we don't.
Student loans are incredibly wasteful too, before you think the vast majority of students will never pay them back.
E: And it's also what kmag said. I've seen that paradox a lot on discussions. 'I have nothing against immigrants but we should be training more doctors here! OK pay for it then. No thanks. But fuck those immigrants. Lol OK'
When you cut immigration down to levels which will limit economic growth, then it's actually a good idea to invest in training to cover the skills gap your xenophobia has created.
I mean the current system essentially just creates debt most of which will not be repaid, so it just allows the country to pretend it's not paying for it.
Starwolf_UK
Member
This old joke comes to mind:
This egg prejudice has got to stop. They're not nazis until proven innocent...
anyway in case you had read it then it said:
https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/870744050676236288 said:
Audioboxer
Member
Well, if some sane people had their way it wouldn't be getting renewed. I do like your shade of attempting to say the SNP have no internal democracy (and me by extension). Nah, they largely can unify because like minded people fighting for similar beliefs can actually get things done. It's a democratic stance not to want it renewed and to fight for disarmament. It's just obviously one you don't agree with. A group of people can come to the conclusion they do not want to renew and support a nuclear weapon. Imagine that. Must mean they are dictators without internal democracy!
Scotland did. It should cause far more unrest in the rUK that part of the union has nice things and the rest are still dragging their heels on catching up. Corbyn has finally had the sanity to directly propose something the citizens should have been questioning and/or asking for long before now.
Monty Mole
Member
Ignoring the inevitable effect of Brexit, the UK is (or was last year) the fifth largest economy in the world.
And the UK is frequently listed near the top of lists of the world's most influential countries based on a variety of factors, eg:
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/international-influence-full-list
None of this means I think we should necessarily keep Trident alive, but dismissing the UK as just a tiny little island with no influence on world affairs is a little uninformed to say the least.
It's not an area I'm strong on, so I guess maybe the Labour party has more internal party democracy than most parties, but that comment seems again to come from a newspaper headline about the 'SNP cult' and 'rubber-stamping' policies, and not reality.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13077623.SNP_votes_to_abandon_opposition_to_Nato/
I'm not a member or anything, so I've no idea how inclusive it is to be a part of, but there's certainly a democratic process at the core of their policy stances.
You're a Lib Dem voter? Otherwise, I don't get it.
Dirtyshubb
Member
https://twitter.com/Dirtyshubb/status/870935124069822464
This just sickens me, the type of people we have that are going to decide the fate of our country really depresses me.
This just sickens me, the type of people we have that are going to decide the fate of our country really depresses me.
What the actual fuck? You do realise that this minority government you speak of is propped up by another nationalist party and no one else? They don't have to compromise on their favourite issues. With Labour they would...or they'd bring another Labour government down. Wouldn't be surprised if it's the latter.
Ohh...I see how it is.
Sorry nationalist parties won over 50% of seats at the last election. How about from 2007 to 2011. Four years of governing by consensus.
Avatar Wars! I used that picture for a Mafia game on the off topic community forum, if I was playing the current Brexit game it would be even spicier.
What irks me about tuition fees is why does any student actually care about them?
It's not proper debt, you'll never have money and then have it taken away from you, it's deducted before it even goes into your bank... Not only that but you have to earn an amount you probably won't be earning before you're able to save a little anyway.
I can understand how "fee" is scary, but if you actually think about the way the debt is used it just isn't proper debt, it doesn't hit your credit score and it gets taken away after x years.
The only argument I can come up with against this is that it can scare people from going but then all they have to do is research the way you pay it and what it actually does, surely?
Won't getting rid of them close universities and thus lose jobs?
It's not proper debt, you'll never have money and then have it taken away from you, it's deducted before it even goes into your bank... Not only that but you have to earn an amount you probably won't be earning before you're able to save a little anyway.
I can understand how "fee" is scary, but if you actually think about the way the debt is used it just isn't proper debt, it doesn't hit your credit score and it gets taken away after x years.
The only argument I can come up with against this is that it can scare people from going but then all they have to do is research the way you pay it and what it actually does, surely?
Won't getting rid of them close universities and thus lose jobs?
I voted labour
Monty Mole
Member
There are people like that in every country. It's far, far worse in the US. Just ignore the selfish and ignorant little scroats and instead spread the word about how helping others will also help them in the long term.
WhateverItTakes
Banned
You're right in that many aren't very fussed about the debt. I'm a student right now and I was never very worried about it, but I'm from a decently well off family. I can understand how others would have trepidations, especially when you add maintenance loan and stuff in.
As for losing jobs, the idea is the money from Labour raising business tax and stuff will go to the unis and cover the costs. Uni's won't close because of this. Besides the way most just threw the fees to maximum regardless of degree content and stuff tells me we weren't exactly paying the minimum amount for our degrees anyway.
Dorsal Axe
Member
That's a point. The attacks only play well with their existing base (Blukip).
My dad was a criminal (who has since passed), my single mum lived on benefits and I was raised on a council estate, it never put me off going to university, people just need to research it instead of seeing "fee" and being scared by it.
It could still exist, it just needs to be advertised in a different way as to not be as scary, though I remember an old friend telling me that he went to University when it was free and many chose not to (as did Corbyn himself). I see this as the only huge benefit because people won't see university education as something they "need", I feel the fee can add to that - it makes it seem special - and it'll have a knock-on effect where degrees won't mean everything to the workplace.
I mean that's already happening isn't it? Especially with apprenticeships which those who have a degree can't get.
Dirtyshubb
Member
Oh I know it's widespread but I just can't stand it.
Sometimes it just feels like the amount of selfish and idiotic people continues to rise and the sensible people are the ones who actually suffer. It's even worse with how biased mainstream media is and how good it is at manipulating the public.
ferrasvansen
Member
Even reading the Daily Mail comments about the debate is stunning. Not what i expected at all, especially the nuclear war talk.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Surely the argument goes both ways. If most don't pay it off and it doesn't have any major material impact, then why have it at all?
Having spoken to a lot of under-privileged children (from primary to sixth form), many are actually discouraged by the amount of debt. I think there are better arguments against it than the feelings it evokes, but it is another factor against it.
WhateverItTakes
Banned
I'm also hoping we don't lose focus on things like apprenticeships and certificates, those routes are way more suited for some people. Uni isn't for everybody. Still I removing a barrier for entry can be helpful. I don't think it's as big an issue as social services and stuff, but I respect they're trying to look at the bigger picture. Higher education can have a knock on effect that improves many other aspects of the country.
Please read my post above.
It's the way the fee is put across rather than the actual fee itself since it isn't really a huge impact to your earnings nor is it proper debt.
And as long as universities wouldn't be shut down then sure, it sounds great but if they went free and it ended up costing jobs it would just seem counter productive to me, especially if a University in a smaller city (Stafford for example) were to close and Students didn't want to/couldn't leave their local city.
I honestly think having as many choices for getting higher on the ladder is a great thing, apprentaships and certificates should be as important as a degree is.
And I agree about the knock on effect that it can have and with Jezza saying he wants to focus on improving the national work-force it only seems like it could be a good thing if the goverment were to allow this "web" of education to mean something instead of singling out degrees as being the most important.
I am from a similar environment to you and I just don't think making tuition free is going to make a big deal to people in that environment. Pupils on welfare fall far behind other pupils long before they even finish secondary school. They aren't going to university because they are failing in education, not because of fees. I would much prefer the investment going to free tuition instead go into helping poorer communities. There is a huge problem with education from children from unemployed households. It's a massive problem that needs to be fixed.
naweednrahman
Member
Bruh...although I earn a nice salary after graduating in 2012...it's like £300/£400 that comes out of my salary every month lol it does hurt on top of how much tax I gotta pay. It just all hurts bro T_T.
Depends on the state and company you work in. Entry salary usually is between 30-45k, maybe a little lower in east germany.
Audioboxer
Member
Most people "work really hard" for whatever they can earn. Not everyone can be a scientist/doctor/surgeon and it doesn't necessarily mean you do not work hard. It's always going to be the case if someone gets a niche speciality or something that requires above and beyond skills they get rained on with cash, but some people do need to take some time to sit back and think how a "six figure salary" is a bit of a privilege no matter how much more objective "extra work" you've done compared to Joe Bloggs. In a vast majority of situations, people who end up very wealthy have either been born into wealth themselves, have above average IQ or have some sort of other diving head start to life. Hard work plays a huge role, but when you start off from a place of an advantage it helps. Hence why impoverished areas and families often struggle to get out of the generational poverty cycle. Scrapping higher education fees can certainly play a small role here to try and help get more into skilled labour.
The way I like to try and word it to some are, do you agree the council workers, retail/customer service staff and cleaners all need to do jobs that need to be done? Yes? Well sure, I expect you'll agree. Someone has to do all those kinds of roles or society wouldn't function. Are you happy it's not you? Probably, not many people will willingly want to be earning just above minimum wage working in a Supermarket for all their life. Can these people contribute a large portion of their salary to pay for the NHS and council services? Very unlikely. They probably barely cover their rent and bills and have enough to do a handful of nice things a month. You're on six figures, right? Well, in proportion I doubt you struggle to pay for your shopping, bills or leisure time. Is it your money you've earned and deserve to enjoy? Sure, but do you live in the society we've just been talking about, or do you live on a private island? If in society given your place of privilege when it comes to wealth it may be the case you'll be asked to contribute a bit more than Mary the school cleaner. No one is saying it's a perfect system, but if you care about the society around about you not falling apart and the scrubs at the bottom being there to do the jobs you would never want to spend a day doing, it's arguably how things might need to be in a modern society.
Where your anger should probably really get aimed if anywhere is not constantly at the lower class/poor or any who "use the NHS repeatedly", but the government you keep voting for and how they spend the taxes raised. Sadly many of the most wealthy do just keep voting for whatever party promises the least amount of tax/potential to hoard wealth. I honestly think at times it's a built in evolutionary switch that goes off that when a human comes into contact with vast amounts of money it totally rewires the brain. #notallrichpeople Many contribute to the vast majority of wealth to the world's charities and do actually largely keep our societies running by not jumping off to Panama to tax evade. It's an "ugly" scenario that many do turn just a little bit nasty, hence the long string of Eton boys and elite MPs in the Tory party that are some of the most uncaring, cold-hearted windbags you could ever find. What hurts the UK most is the Tories somehow convincing the working/middle-class that they too can be "in the Elite" by voting Conservative. Which they then find out in the years to come they cannot afford things, the NHS is crumbling and really, they are not part of the elite, or rich, or those who can splash the cash on privatised services. What do they do though? Just keep blaming the EU, poor, disabled, immigrants and someone else other than the Government they keep voting for.
You must be on a pretty penny! You'll have it all paid off in no time
I only pay like £60pm off my student debt lol!
I would encourage you not to waste your time. He's the only GAF user (so far) I've ever felt the need to put on my ignore list.
(But, I'm kinda amused by the post he sent you, because it reflects one of our first exchanges which was me calling him out for his old 'Unionist' avatar making his position obvious, which he quickly changed afterwards. The mod who gave him his tag was spot on.)
Theonik
Member
That's pretty low tbh. I was offered 50k straight out of uni. (that's in Germany, had lived there before didn't want to go there again at the time though)
UK tech industry is woefully underpaid. Though if you actually know the recruitment market you should know there is a lot of flexibility in pay and working conditions and you are expected to haggle. Though the companies that make you do that tend to be shit in my experience too. (by forcing people to negotiate you reward people not on their skill but their ability to negotiate pay, so your best talent ends up getting poached.)
Dirtyshubb
Member
Great post, I will have to try and remember it for the next time I get into a conversation about these issues
Entry level salary with a university degree obviously is higher than entry level salary with an apprenticeship but yeah depending on your negotiating skills you can get quite a bit more than others.
Just a troll fortunately. All his tweets are either antagonising people or complaining about his local bus service.
Also he calls Trump "Daddy". That's a thing, I guess.
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