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[Huw_Dawson]

Actually you probably can convince me. You got any links to where I can read more on this? I genuinely thought it was straightforward, I'm just in an 'everything is futile' kind of mood today.

Alright, most people are hard-headed about this so I generally just say my bit and get on with it.

Before 2010, the Lib Dem policy was to scrap tuition fees. Every MP signed a pledge to not vote to increase them during the next parliament (backed by the NUS).

There was to be a report on fees, called the Browne Report. It advocated a dramatic hike of fees and "mortgage-style" repayments.

When we went into government, a deal was struck so Lib Dem MPs could abstain on the tuition fees deal that was ultimately decided on..

Then, INCREDIBLY stupidly, most Lib Dem MPs decided to back the final bill, which trebled the on-paper fee number from £3,000 to £9,000 a year. This broke the pledge, and is why so many people hate the Lib Dems.

Farron and a few others turned down promises of illustrious careers in government to protest against the stuff that was actually reprehensible about the coalition. Hence, Farron's record is anti-fees and anti-bedroom tax. But the party is probably permanently smeared by this.

This is not to say that the Lib Dems did not have a major hand in shaping the ultimate fees formula. Cable, and others, worked to make sure that the new arrangement did not charge anyone any more per-month than it did currently. Hence my figure - you have to be earning well over £70k a year to pay more per-month back.

Basically, students have a bigger number they have to pay back, but it's easier to keep up with payments.

In my opinion there should have been de-selection threats or a direct leadership challenge to Clegg over this, but the party was still in the "we should make the best of this coalition!" mode and utterly screwed up.

By 2012 Clegg et al had realised how utterly, incomprehensibly stupid they'd been acting for two years. They attempted to make it much clearer what Lib Dem policies were being passed and what we were blocking. This is why you will see Lib Dems always raising equal marriage as a Lib Dem triumph - it was our policy and nobody else can ever steal it.

But the Tories have been able to steal the Personal Income Tax Allowance because of how insanely bad Lib Dem spin was between 2010-12.

EDIT: Oh, on LD seats going Tory?

Either the Labour voters in the local coalition that kept the LD MP in place fled in disgust (Colchester, for example) or voters walked into polling booths thinking "if I vote Lib Dem, Milliband and the SNP will be running Britain" (Twickenham/Kingston).

 

[Theonik]

How do you explain Lib Dem seats going Tory in 2015 then?

Liberals were the traditional opposition in England for centuries before Labour existed. Whigs and Tories was the 2 party system of old! Now for many English seats that still holds

Edit:

By 2012 Clegg et al had realised how utterly, incomprehensibly stupid they'd been acting for two years. They attempted to make it much clearer what Lib Dem policies were being passed and what we were blocking. This is why you will see Lib Dems always raising equal marriage as a Lib Dem triumph - it was our policy and nobody else can ever steal it.

But the Tories have been able to steal the Personal Income Tax Allowance because of how insanely bad Lib Dem spin was between 2010-12.

That's not true. I see every day people talking about how progressive Cameron was for a Tory, and equal marriage is often cited. Coalition was a disaster.
While I do not blame the LD for it in their position I don't think I can actually forgive them when looking at what resulted.

 

[Khoryos]

The coalition of voters that voted in the Lib Dems was of two groups - only one of those were liberals. The rest were "on loan" voters from the other two - they liked the local LD MP, they agreed with the LDs broadly (as most people do in Britain, as Britain is a liberal country).

The liberals stuck with the party. The on-loan voters ran.

This is why the new Lib Dem path to relevance is based on finding all the liberals in the big two and convincing them to come to us and stay with us through thick and thin. This is known as the "core vote" strategy.

Might I suggest that a good way to coax liberals to your side is to not form governments with fascists? And certainly not to rubber-stamp every vile idea they put forward? I was one of you on-loan voters and it's going to take a goddamn miracle for me to forgive that betrayal.

 

[Goodlife]

Clegg hadn't read Liam Byrne's note when he made that pledge though.

What, the there's no money, oh actually, we've managed to find a shit ton more over the last 7 years, don't worry about it after all

 

[Captain AHat]

Cast my vote for team Jezza, as said at some point earlier in this gargantuan topic, it's potentially a useless vote as its a safe tory seat ... but we shall see...

On the positive side though there were quite a few young voters there, which is much better than the usual bugger all young voters I'm used to seeing.

 

[twofoldd]

When was /r/ukpolitics not a shithole. If anything it's better now than before where it was basically /r/uk/pol/itics. It's basically 4chan with all the "SALT" and "TRIGGERED LEFTIES" going around by some rather infamous users.

/r/ukpolitics has always had its share of racists, bigots, and far right lunatics, but the discussions were generally good with all sides of the political spectrum being represented to some degree. It has its problems, but its positives far outweigh its negatives, in my opinion, and it's my preferred place to discuss politics.

It's really gone to shit in the last few weeks though, with Labour supporters flooding the subreddit and posting inane shit at all times of the day. I hope they leave after the election is done.

 

[Pandy]

You expect it from them, Lib Dems lying was a new experience

It was this.

Shame on you if you trick me once...

 

[HazySaiyan]

People expect the Tories to be Tories, they didn't expect the Lib Dems to be (but if they'd read the Orange Book they'd prob have realised sooner)



Not gonna lie to you pal, the sum total of my knowledge of Huddersfield comes from sitting by a canal on bank holiday Monday three sheets to the wind singing "da da dadada dada Michael Hefele"

When you come into the bus station, the first thing that greets you is a Greggs and a Ladbrokes. Kinda sets the tone for the whole town really

 

[Empty]

clegg ran to the left of labour in 2010, even though he himself was far more of a center-right free-marketeer than charles kennedy, out of pure political opportunism, trying to exploit resentment after thirteen years of new labour and build on the gains in 2005. not really surprising it backfired when he had no intention of actually governing under those ideals. i like clegg and wish he'd made a more honest case for his particular centre ground policies.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Might I suggest that a good way to coax liberals to your side is to not form governments with fascists? And certainly not to rubber-stamp every vile idea they put forward? I was one of you on-loan voters and it's going to take a goddamn miracle for me to forgive that betrayal.

You're an excellent example of why we're so battered.

Farron will be in charge for quite a few more years yet. The hope is that we can stick up for our ideals and values, especially over Europe, and try our absolute best to convince former voters and new ones that we've learned our lessons.

There's literally no other path for us. That's why I'm hoping for a new progressive party to emerge after the election which the LDs can form an alliance with, as I think there are lots of voters out there that want to vote for a liberal democratic party, but not the Lib Dems.

 

[Beefy]

Ergh be careful on Twitter. Footage of the London attack has been posted.

 

[TomWaitsForNoMan]

Cast my vote for team Jezza, as said at some point earlier in this gargantuan topic, it's potentially a useless vote as its a safe tory seat ... but we shall see...

On the positive side though there were quite a few young voters there, which is much better than the usual bugger all young voters I'm used to seeing.

Is your polling centre near a university? I only ask bc lots of people were reporting high youth turnout near universities which isn't that good a sign as it's not students who usually fail to turn up

 

[Tregard]

Cast a vote in my DUP stronghold, despite the fact it was bucketing down with rain. Feeling good now I'm back, we'll see what happens tonight.

 

[HazySaiyan]

You're an excellent example of why we're so battered.

Farron will be in charge for quite a few more years yet. The hope is that we can stick up for our ideals and values, especially over Europe, and try our absolute best to convince former voters and new ones that we've learned our lessons.

There's literally no other path for us. That's why I'm hoping for a new progressive party to emerge after the election which the LDs can form an alliance with, as I think there are lots of voters out there that want to vote for a liberal democratic party, but not the Lib Dems.

Farron is a damp squib, the Lib Dems will never recover with him in charge

 

[Thornton Reed]

Farron is a damp squib, the Lib Dems will never recover with him in charge

If he can't get on board with male fisting he's never getting my vote

 

[Beefy]

About right... Royston Smith just turned up on my doorstep campaigning. Bit late dick head

 

[TomWaitsForNoMan]

I just want to know why Farron looks so scared in every photograph

 

[FortuneFaded]

Did my part.

Won't be expecting much but let's hope.

#anybodybuthitch

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Farron is a damp squib, the Lib Dems will never recover with him in charge

I've heard arguments both for and against this. I'm actually largely against.

1. Farron's young, energetic and is a good leader of the party internally.
2. He's well media-trained, if a bit of a waffler.
3. He generally comes across as a nice guy when he's not being attacked over his religion - useful after the Clegg era. He's also willing to make a joke and take risks - something that most party leaders hate doing. I can't imagine another party leader who would have tried that Bake Off joke at the end of a debate.

A LOT of people thought Corbyn was useless and would never be able to get a good result - thanks to a decent manifesto and hard work I think he's proven his critics wrong. Farron's time will come, even if it's not at this election.

I do think he'll be facing a leadership contest after this election. That'd probably be Jo Swinson's best shot at becoming leader if she wanted a go.

 

[Paul_Str337]

LEEDSGAF Unite! I walk home past the Taco Bell every day but it was too busy for me to bother with this lunch time during its grand opening. I'll try tomorrow.

Currently on the bus home. I've got to get the kids to bed then my partner and I will have to take turns going out to vote. I can't believe how crazy this election has been. Watching the polls close up has been staggering. Even if Corbyn doesn't win the Conservatives are surely loosing a lot of seats. They all underestimated him.

 

[VegiHam]

Alright, most people are hard-headed about this so I generally just say my bit and get on with it.

Before 2010, the Lib Dem policy was to scrap tuition fees. Every MP signed a pledge to not vote to increase them during the next parliament (backed by the NUS).

There was to be a report on fees, called the Browne Report. It advocated a dramatic hike of fees and "mortgage-style" repayments.

When we went into government, a deal was struck so Lib Dem MPs could abstain on the tuition fees deal that was ultimately decided on..

Then, INCREDIBLY stupidly, most Lib Dem MPs decided to back the final bill, which trebled the on-paper fee number from £3,000 to £9,000 a year. This broke the pledge, and is why so many people hate the Lib Dems.

Farron and a few others turned down promises of illustrious careers in government to protest against the stuff that was actually reprehensible about the coalition. Hence, Farron's record is anti-fees and anti-bedroom tax. But the party is probably permanently smeared by this.

This is not to say that the Lib Dems did not have a major hand in shaping the ultimate fees formula. Cable, and others, worked to make sure that the new arrangement did not charge anyone any more per-month than it did currently. Hence my figure - you have to be earning well over £70k a year to pay more per-month back.

Basically, students have a bigger number they have to pay back, but it's easier to keep up with payments.

In my opinion there should have been de-selection threats or a direct leadership challenge to Clegg over this, but the party was still in the "we should make the best of this coalition!" mode and utterly screwed up.

By 2012 Clegg et al had realised how utterly, incomprehensibly stupid they'd been acting for two years. They attempted to make it much clearer what Lib Dem policies were being passed and what we were blocking. This is why you will see Lib Dems always raising equal marriage as a Lib Dem triumph - it was our policy and nobody else can ever steal it.

But the Tories have been able to steal the Personal Income Tax Allowance because of how insanely bad Lib Dem spin was between 2010-12.

EDIT: Oh, on LD seats going Tory?

Either the Labour voters in the local coalition that kept the LD MP in place fled in disgust (Colchester, for example) or voters walked into polling booths thinking "if I vote Lib Dem, Milliband and the SNP will be running Britain" (Twickenham/Kingston).

Thank you for explaining this; I hadn't seen this perspective on it before. Mortgage style repayments sounds pretty bad, even if the current number I owe is higher.

If he can't get on board with male fisting he's never getting my vote

This is a good point though. You can't say you're the guys behind equal marriage when your leader thinks it's a sin.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

This is a good point though. You can't say you're the guys behind equal marriage when your leader thinks it's a sin.

He doesn't believe gay sex is a sin, but he REALLY hates being drawn on the specifics of his religion. And he's usually bad at explaining this - he first managed to get out his view properly on his Question Time special. If he's done one legitimately stupid thing this campaign, it was not figuring out how he'd answer faith-related questions.

 

[Stead Fast]

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Labour party are corrupt af in Liverpool, because they know they will win with very little effort so can basically do whatever they want. So I believe you there

But yeah, the Lib Dems enabled a lot of shit in the coalition, even if it was the Tories pushing the terrible stuff, the Lib Dems still gave them the platform they needed to get that done

Anecdotal at best here, but as an active member of Liverpool Labour, we certainly do have some issues with parts of the party, with Joe Anderson being a major part of that. However, many more moderate parts of the party and council do steer clear of it. And as for effort, we've campaigned the shit out of this election.

 

[kmag]

Alright, most people are hard-headed about this so I generally just say my bit and get on with it.

Before 2010, the Lib Dem policy was to scrap tuition fees. Every MP signed a pledge to not vote to increase them during the next parliament (backed by the NUS).

There was to be a report on fees, called the Browne Report. It advocated a dramatic hike of fees and "mortgage-style" repayments.

When we went into government, a deal was struck so Lib Dem MPs could abstain on the tuition fees deal that was ultimately decided on..

Then, INCREDIBLY stupidly, most Lib Dem MPs decided to back the final bill, which trebled the on-paper fee number from £3,000 to £9,000 a year. This broke the pledge, and is why so many people hate the Lib Dems.

Farron and a few others turned down promises of illustrious careers in government to protest against the stuff that was actually reprehensible about the coalition. Hence, Farron's record is anti-fees and anti-bedroom tax. But the party is probably permanently smeared by this.

This is not to say that the Lib Dems did not have a major hand in shaping the ultimate fees formula. Cable, and others, worked to make sure that the new arrangement did not charge anyone any more per-month than it did currently. Hence my figure - you have to be earning well over £70k a year to pay more per-month back.

Basically, students have a bigger number they have to pay back, but it's easier to keep up with payments.

In my opinion there should have been de-selection threats or a direct leadership challenge to Clegg over this, but the party was still in the "we should make the best of this coalition!" mode and utterly screwed up.

By 2012 Clegg et al had realised how utterly, incomprehensibly stupid they'd been acting for two years. They attempted to make it much clearer what Lib Dem policies were being passed and what we were blocking. This is why you will see Lib Dems always raising equal marriage as a Lib Dem triumph - it was our policy and nobody else can ever steal it.

But the Tories have been able to steal the Personal Income Tax Allowance because of how insanely bad Lib Dem spin was between 2010-12.

EDIT: Oh, on LD seats going Tory?

Either the Labour voters in the local coalition that kept the LD MP in place fled in disgust (Colchester, for example) or voters walked into polling booths thinking "if I vote Lib Dem, Milliband and the SNP will be running Britain" (Twickenham/Kingston).

Abstaining would have broken the pledge just as much as voting for. Lib Dems pledged to vote AGAINST, they didn't. They can get fucked.

 

[TomWaitsForNoMan]

I mean no-one forced the Lib Dems to enter coalition with the Tories. They could have refused, forced a minority government, and actually voted against the shit the Tories pushed instead of enabling it. Ah well

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Abstaining would have broken the pledge just as much as voting for. Lib Dems pledged to vote AGAINST, they didn't. They can get fucked.

Abstaining because you're in government and voting against would, it was feared, likely cause the collapse of the government. Good solution, would not have been as harmful.

Voting FOR, for no real reason = incompetence.

And no, if the Lib Dems had bottled going into coalition in 2010, there would be legitimately no point voting for us ever again. Why vote for a party that doesn't want power?

You'd have had a November general election, the Tories would have won a big majority and you'd have got nastier policies across the board. But the problem is that that takes time to explain and is still, by itself, not a good enough reason to vote for a party.

 

[FlammableD]

I'm a displaced LeedsGAFer, moved there at 10 then left for Uni. Nice place.

 

[Thornton Reed]

Anecdotal at best here, but as an active member of Liverpool Labour, we certainly do have some issues with parts of the party, with Joe Anderson being a major part of that. However, many more moderate parts of the party and council do steer clear of it. And as for effort, we've campaigned the shit out of this election.

Derrick Hatton is still sniffing around as well. The stories I've heard about that guy. However I used to work for his son who is a lovely bloke

 

[Stead Fast]

Derrick Hatton is still sniffing around as well. The stories I've heard about that guy. However I used to work for his son who is a lovely bloke

Yeah, seconded that.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

FWIW I'm not a fan of Liverpool Labour, but that is mostly due to the stink of certain individuals. Liverpool tends to attract nasty politicians.

Plus Labour want to build luxury homes on people's local parks. That's kind of dickish.

 

[TomWaitsForNoMan]

FWIW I'm not a fan of Liverpool Labour, but that is mostly due to the stink of certain individuals. Liverpool tends to attract nasty politicians.

Plus Labour want to build luxury homes on people's local parks. That's kind of dickish.

London Lib Dems (and Labour, and Tories) build luxury homes on people's homes

 

[Khoryos]

Abstaining because you're in government and voting against would, it was feared, likely cause the collapse of the government. Good solution, would not have been as harmful.

Voting FOR, for no real reason = incompetence.

And no, if the Lib Dems had bottled going into coalition in 2010, there would be legitimately no point voting for us ever again. Why vote for a party that doesn't want power?

You'd have had a November general election, the Tories would have won a big majority and you'd have got nastier policies across the board. But the problem is that that takes time to explain and is still, by itself, not a good enough reason to vote for a party.

I don't see how a government collapse is worse than a government taking actions you've promised to oppose? If anything, surely that's a good result, and strengthens your image as a party of principle?

 

[Thornton Reed]

Seems to be a lot of Liverpoolgaf in this thread. Can someone please help me. What the fuck is going on with ket wigs, why is this a thing??

 

[kmag]

Abstaining because you're in government and voting against would, it was feared, likely cause the collapse of the government. Good solution, would not have been as harmful.

Voting FOR, for no real reason = incompetence.

They pledged to vote against. Abstaining isn't voting against, and is just an equal abuse of trust.

How about this simple fucking mantra, if you make a direct unequivocal pledge to your electorate try keeping it.

As it was, the Lib Dems threw that pledge straight into the bin to the point it wasn't even a contentious issue during the coalition negotiation according to Laws, it was a low priority they didn't even argue for.

 

[BossDarkseid]

Seems to be an awful lot of young people excited to have voted.

Jesus this is an emotional rollercoaster.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

London Lib Dems (and Labour, and Tories) build luxury homes on people's homes

That's nothing to do with the actions of Liverpool Labour, though. I know a lot of our LD campaigning time is taken up with issues like Calderstones Park.

I don't see how a government collapse is worse than a government taking actions you've promised to oppose? If anything, surely that's a good result, and strengthens your image as a party of principle?

OK, wargame with me here.

First coalition government since 1945, first Liberals in government in peacetime since before WW1, I think.

Over the issue of tuition fees, you, the Liberals, cause the collapse of the government, leading to an election in 2011.

On what planet does the voting public not destroy you?

If voting Lib Dem means permanent unstable coalitions, then NOBODY is going to vote Lib Dem.

 

[Little Old Man]

Seems to be an awful lot of young people excited to have voted.

Jesus this is an emotional rollercoaster.

And then at 10pm they'll age five years with despair.

 

[BossDarkseid]

And then at 10pm they'll age five years with despair.

That's what I'll blame for my grey-beard hairs.

 

[Stead Fast]

Seems to be a lot of Liverpoolgaf in this thread. Can someone please help me. What the fuck is going on with ket wigs, why is this a thing??

It's so you can have something extra painful to yank on as you chase the little bastard who threw a rock in your window. It was a little harder when they were all sporting short-back-and-sides.

Spoiler

I don't know, and it frightened me as the first sensation of getting old and not understanding the youth. It looks atrocious.

 

[Little Old Man]

That's what I'll blame for my grey-beard hairs.

Do you reckon if I hype myself up, reach the pits of despair, I might wake up being able to grow a gruzzled and rough beard?

 

[Screaming Meat]

I've done my bit. Now we play the waiting game...

 

[Garjon]

Seems to be a lot of Liverpoolgaf in this thread. Can someone please help me. What the fuck is going on with ket wigs, why is this a thing??

It comes from certain people growing their hair in order to smuggle ketamine into Creamfields because they started searching people who went in for drugs. Since then, it has spread like wildfire because it's just the next thing (Lacoste trackies, Lowie hats etc)

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Just to be clear: if you're advocating for "the Lib Dems should have caused the collapse of the coalition over tuition fees" or "the Lib Dems should never have gone into government", you're voting for the total destruction of the Lib Dems as a party of government.

The problem with the coalition for the Lib Dems was threefold:

1. Appalling spin
2. Bad pledges
3. Not getting PR.

Literally if any of those three had not happened, the LDs would be in far better straights today. All three were incompetent decisions taken at a high level within the Lib Dems between 2009 and 2011. It was a combo of all three of these that destroyed the party.

 

[Pandy]

That's nothing to do with the actions of Liverpool Labour, though. I know a lot of our LD campaigning time is taken up with issues like Calderstones Park.



OK, wargame with me here.

First coalition government since 1945, first Liberals in government in peacetime since before WW1, I think.

Over the issue of tuition fees, you, the Liberals, cause the collapse of the government, leading to an election in 2011.

On what planet does the voting public not destroy you?

If voting Lib Dem means permanent unstable coalitions, then NOBODY is going to vote Lib Dem.

This part seems to be working out okay regardless.

I didn't criticise the decision to enter a coalition at the time, but then I'm not paid to lead a political party. Clegg's mistake sunk the Lib Dems, and Farron doesn't have what it takes to re-float the boat.

 

[Ushay]

Did my part, now we wait...

 

[Khoryos]

That's nothing to do with the actions of Liverpool Labour, though. I know a lot of our LD campaigning time is taken up with issues like Calderstones Park.



OK, wargame with me here.

First coalition government since 1945, first Liberals in government in peacetime since before WW1, I think.

Over the issue of tuition fees, you, the Liberals, cause the collapse of the government, leading to an election in 2011.

On what planet does the voting public not destroy you?

If voting Lib Dem means permanent unstable coalitions, then NOBODY is going to vote Lib Dem.

Well instead you went back on your word and the public destroyed you for being untrustworthy bastards instead so... well done, I guess?

Your appeal was based on being something different and principled, and instead you just fuelled the "Whoever you vote for the Government gets in" flames.

 

[BossDarkseid]

Do you reckon if I hype myself up, reach the pits of despair, I might wake up being able to grow a gruzzled and rough beard?

Sure, why not

Then again if Labour win will it be like I slept in the Fountain of Youth?

 

[Little Old Man]

Seems to be a lot of Liverpoolgaf in this thread. Can someone please help me. What the fuck is going on with ket wigs, why is this a thing??

Holy shit there's a name for it. For like two years now I've been wondering why there's kids everywhere with long fluff barnets.

 

[Pandy]

Do you reckon if I hype myself up, reach the pits of despair, I might wake up being able to grow a gruzzled and rough beard?

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Yeah, I honestly think the coalition was a disaster for the Lib Dems due to the three points I mention above, but I'll defend most of the actions of the government. With the exception of anything that IDS got his mitts on, because that dude is flat-out evil.

The problem is that by electing a government that carried on the austerity agenda far after it needed to be carried on for, the country has endured needless amounts of pain.