Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Oh really?
You pretend like the Lib Dems have a chance... Centrism is a niche today.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
UK General Election - 8th June 2017 |OT| - The Red Wedding
- Thread starter Jezbollah
- Start date
- Status
Oh really?
You pretend like the Lib Dems have a chance... Centrism is a niche today.
It's been a while since I saw the Channel 4 stuff, was wasn't it basically gaming the system between local and national expenses? Very deliberate, but I doubt anyone would care.
It's like having illegal spikes on your running shoes or something. People will go well that was stupid, but believe they probably would have won anyway.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
It is irrelevant what people think of it. They appear to have broken the law.
I know that, hence illegal. I'm just saying apart from the individual consequences and rap on the hand for the party it would never be a huge deal and the fact it's been drowned out is because it's not a huge deal.
Huw_Dawson
Member
The Lib Dems have an excellent chance of doing well. Centrists like Macron and Trudeau are the way forwards. And Corbyn is telling lots of young voters to sign up to vote and then not telling them that Labour's Brexit policy is both contrary to their own feelings and contrary to what is best for their futures.
Will we win the election? No. But we have a good chance of knocking Corbyn into third place in the popular vote and allowing for the long-needed realignment of the left away from the bonkers left of the Labour party.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Trudeau won by running to the left of the NDP, Canada's social democratic party, on many issues (or more obviously, the NDP lost after running to Trudeau's right.) it seems a little weird to use Canada to support your argument.
w1ck3dn1nj4
Member
The promise of brighter prospects for the young? That's rich coming from a pro brexit cunt.
Yeah as stated the Canadian comparison doesn't make sense.
Also, Trudeau only stands to lose a lot of seats now seeing as walked back on one his most important promises, and in general I honestly doubt their drive to actually implement leftist policies. Heck, I even doubt legal weed now.
I'm not voting for anyone anyway, so I feel like a witness of an oncoming car crash.
- Could never vote Tory, even if it benefitted me. The clue's in the name and it's "Got mine, fuck yours"
- Corbyn has done just as much damage to the country, and even exaggerating and saying the country would be a wreck within weeks if he won doesn't seem implausible
- I could never vote for a born-again, evangelical Christian that believes it's God's plan for him to lose elections and for brutal things to happen to us and the concept of sin. Religion and politics is a red line for me which no one will get me to cross
Bunch of cunts the lot of em.
- Could never vote Tory, even if it benefitted me. The clue's in the name and it's "Got mine, fuck yours"
- Corbyn has done just as much damage to the country, and even exaggerating and saying the country would be a wreck within weeks if he won doesn't seem implausible
- I could never vote for a born-again, evangelical Christian that believes it's God's plan for him to lose elections and for brutal things to happen to us and the concept of sin. Religion and politics is a red line for me which no one will get me to cross
Bunch of cunts the lot of em.
Roberto Larcos
Member
Would you ever vote for a Muslim? Curious, if your anti-religion bar is set so low as to class a guy that votes against his faith a 'cunt'.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
No they don't.
His party seems to draft legislation that ignores something that is codified into the Canadian constitution, so if that's the rosy centrist way forward, no thank you!
http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/impaired-driving-changes-1.4084630
It's God's 'plan' I have a real issue with here, it's incompatible with politics. The only plan a politician should have is their manifesto.
I really don't know enough about Islam to know if this evangelical view of Christianity is similarly represented. But yes if it was, and the person was seemingly unconcerned with how it mixes with politics and gave interviews about how this was all wonderful and great then yes I would have an issue.
To be honest I really don't quite understand your last point though.
Roberto Larcos
Member
Farron absolutely does not mix religion and politics. From where did you get the impression that he does?
He has religious beliefs, those are private and separate from his political beliefs and actions. I think it's a dangerous stance to take, to bar anyone of faith from being involved in politics, especially when that private belief doesn't bleed into their politics.
Oh I'm not digging out the interviews and doing this song and dance again. If you care about it you can find it
God's plan took us to war, I'm quite wary of wolves in sheep's clothing now. However close to power they are.
Roberto Larcos
Member
Lib Dems want to phase out male and female on documents
Lib Dem leader calls for reform after trans woman sent to mens prison
Lib Dem leader Tim Farron: I dont believe gay sex is a sin
Lib Dem leader submits bill to end gay blood ban
Increasing homophobic brutality in Russia horrifying - Farron
Lib Dem leader: Respect my Christian beliefs about gay sex
When will this horrible man cease in imposing his antiquated Christian views on society? When will his reign of terror end?
If you're this worried, submit a question to the Q&A he's doing with Pink News.
Roberto Larcos
Member
Even if not for you, then someone else may see it. Misinformation should not go unchallenged.
I told you to go find it, you went on the defence and did the opposite.
Now can we please leave it at that. I love how if you dare to criticise Saint Tim and the all-new, all-improved Lib Dems it's like you've spat on the Mona Lisa.
I wanted to vote Lib Dem, and if you really wanted to you could go back through the thread and look.
But I can't, and I won't.
Huw_Dawson
Member
You, sir, madam or otherwise, are being daft. You're being told the truth, that the man you're going after as a religious nutcase isn't actually one, and your response has been to dig down into your opinion rather than admit that you are wrong.
A person is allowed to have a personal religious faith in politics, and if you can't accept that then it's no wonder you are not voting for the liberal party - you don't believe in a core tenement of social liberalism!
Yes we do. The hole in British politics for a centrist pro-EU pro-UK party is large enough to drive a tank through.
Labour's policy position is extremely unnatural and that will become clear during the campaign, especially once the manifestos drop.
On Trudeau, that sounds to me like folks are annoyed about his desire for electoral reform, right?
Even if the centrist - and yes, Trudeau ran as a progressive liberal AFAIK - politician ends up screwing up in government, that doesn't have much to do with the actual reason they got elected. So saying 'but Trudeau sucks in government' has nothing to do with it.
Now you insult me, keep it up Liberal Democracts.
Spuck-uk
Banned
People also remember the Lib Dems being absolute liars the last tie they had a sniff of power.
Centrism isn't going to solve shit. The old adage stands. Scratch a lib dem and you'll find a tory underneath. Hell, they're preaching nothing that Blair didn't, and that got us a war and further social and economic division. Economic liberalism is always going to fuck over the poorest and most disadvantaged.
Yes, I'll vote for Corbyn. I agree with his policies 100%, and though he's certainly not the most gifted leader, I sure as hell trust him to do the best for people over the rest of these utter clowns.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Deflection from my point. You are being daft. That isn't me insulting you, that is me making an assessment of your viewpoint. When you are challenged on what you believe, you deflect or dismiss.
A degree of willingness to discuss the point is needed. I don't think you actually want to discuss this.
Scratch a LD and you may well discover a fsint smell of spaniels.
More seriously, you'd have to explain to me the memo where Farron, who is on the left of his party and kept as far away from the coalition as possible, is a closet Tory. Doesn't stack up.
Plus you'll be happy to know we ruled out entering coalition with the Tories (and any other party that is anti-single market or anti-UK).
I don't like the fact we have this coalition backdrop, but this is a different Lib Dem party to the one Clegg ran, and that is reflected in the leader.
At the GE you will have a choice over who you vote for, and the major issue has to be if we leave the single market/customs union or not. A vote for Labour is a vote for a hard Brexit, and a vote for the Lib Dems is a vote for soft Brexit and a chance to remain in the EU if soft Brexit turns out to be rubbish and the public says no to it. It should be an easy decision for anyone who isn't a fan of the direction the country is going in.
You might need to reflect on the fact that there's a good chance that people with different political views to you exist.
Calling everyone cunts whom you don't agree with only serves to get your particular opinion ignored.
I'm not enthused by Farron but responding to evidence with "my feelings", "I can't be bothered" or "why didn't you find the evidence I asked for instead of the evidence undermining my point?" is not a good argument.
Linkstrikesback
Member
the heck?
He literally did exactly what you asked. Dug out plenty of sources demonstrating that Tim Farron keeps his Faith and his actions as a poltician entirely separate.
It's in your court to justify why you don't believe any of those sources. Suggesting that you are wrong in your opinion, and backing that up with evidence isn't being "defensive".
Spuck-uk
Banned
I disagree.
It's a big factor, but it's far from the only one. Public services, support for those in need, the ever widening gap between the haves and have nots are just as big. Glossing over it all with a play to the glories of the economy over all isn't selling me one bit.
As an aside, Farron has the charisma of a gym mat.
Jezbollah
Member
Forgive me if I read it wrong, but I'd suggest the poster was referring to Corbyn being the "pro Brexit cunt"
Huw_Dawson
Member
Two polls out tonight putting Labour on 30% and 31%. I did expect this week to have turned out alright for Labour. No sign of a national bounce for the LDs yet, either. I'd expect such a bounce to be in mid-May should it happen.
One big thing coming up is the local elections.
My suspicion is that the prediction of Labour's councillor ranks being massively culled will not come to complete fruition, but it will still be a bad night for them. Not as bad as UKIP, mind. It should be a great night to be a Lib Dem, but the biggest winner is likely the Tories.
Depending on how the press treat the election results - and how little coverage the press gives the LDs - I think it will be one of the more important dates in the election. If the LDs can announce it as a major victory, it could engender lots of interest. If the LD successes are more limited, or the press is really awful and just ignores the LDs anyway like last year, then it will just be another verdict on May vs Corbyn and the public won't care. Corbyn's followers don't really care if their hero is doomed, and May's already got this election sewn up.
I really don't get any criticism of Farron on charisma. He's not as charismatic as Clegg, but Clegg is unusually good at that. He's certainly better than May and Corbyn. This is personal taste, though.
On the vision - public services, say. You brought it up. What percentage of our public service staff - the NHS is often cited here - are EU nationals?
How much is Brexit going to damage the economy, and thus the income for the Treasury?
With a hard Brexit, you don't get strong public services. That doesn't matter if you vote conservative, or sign up to the all-talk-no-trousers socialism of Corbyn.
The economy is the fundamental structure on which our public services lie. And hurting the economy, as the credit crunch shows, hurts the poorest the most.
I don't think Corbyn *has* economic or social policy, or indeed lives on Earth. I think he knows how to give big socialist visionary speeches - the same stuff he's used for decades. I think he really does believe in the oil he's selling. But by abandoning the field on Brexit he's advocating for a weaker economy that hurts all the causes he is professes to back. That is clearly not a sustainable logical situation.
If you care about the things you listed, then you have to look at a party that wants the strongest economy. And that's the Lib Dems right now.
One big thing coming up is the local elections.
My suspicion is that the prediction of Labour's councillor ranks being massively culled will not come to complete fruition, but it will still be a bad night for them. Not as bad as UKIP, mind. It should be a great night to be a Lib Dem, but the biggest winner is likely the Tories.
Depending on how the press treat the election results - and how little coverage the press gives the LDs - I think it will be one of the more important dates in the election. If the LDs can announce it as a major victory, it could engender lots of interest. If the LD successes are more limited, or the press is really awful and just ignores the LDs anyway like last year, then it will just be another verdict on May vs Corbyn and the public won't care. Corbyn's followers don't really care if their hero is doomed, and May's already got this election sewn up.
I really don't get any criticism of Farron on charisma. He's not as charismatic as Clegg, but Clegg is unusually good at that. He's certainly better than May and Corbyn. This is personal taste, though.
On the vision - public services, say. You brought it up. What percentage of our public service staff - the NHS is often cited here - are EU nationals?
How much is Brexit going to damage the economy, and thus the income for the Treasury?
With a hard Brexit, you don't get strong public services. That doesn't matter if you vote conservative, or sign up to the all-talk-no-trousers socialism of Corbyn.
The economy is the fundamental structure on which our public services lie. And hurting the economy, as the credit crunch shows, hurts the poorest the most.
I don't think Corbyn *has* economic or social policy, or indeed lives on Earth. I think he knows how to give big socialist visionary speeches - the same stuff he's used for decades. I think he really does believe in the oil he's selling. But by abandoning the field on Brexit he's advocating for a weaker economy that hurts all the causes he is professes to back. That is clearly not a sustainable logical situation.
If you care about the things you listed, then you have to look at a party that wants the strongest economy. And that's the Lib Dems right now.
Spuck-uk
Banned
Honestly, tactical voting to deny the tories as much as possible is something I can get behind 100%
only strong and stable leadership can prevent you from getting more tired and under a coalition of chaos led by jeremy corbyn polling day would be months rather than weeks away.
Jezbollah
Member
aarrrghhh!!!
PJV3
Member
Yeah, the only concern I have is Labour getting so-so results and Corbyn hanging on, I would be OK with that if they do well and embarrass May.
After the shit Liam Fox came out with I want the Tories looking like clowns.
Huw_Dawson
Member
I know that your choice is between Labour and the Lib Dems though up in Merseyside, and all those seats are relatively safe for Labour, so it is not the end of the world for you to say 'I'm voting Labour!'
If you were voting Labour in Southport I'd get back up that way and have a strong word.
Although I know all the Lib Dems standing in Liverpool and they are all good eggs, so please do at least give them a fair hearing - especially Kris Brown (Garston and Halewood) and Richard Kemp (Liv Wavertree) who would be ace in parliament.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Choosing not to vote isn't disenfranchisement, it is kind of the opposite.
That aside, I do wonder a bit about the extent to which in-group signalling influences the young University people's being apparently pro-Labour through-and-through. What would happen if you went in tomorrow and told everyone you were voting Tory? I imagine you'd get a bit of a backlash, feel like a bit of an outcast, so you probably wouldn't say that even if you planned on voting Tory. So it may be just an artifice that 9 out of 10 cats prefer Labour - it's a self-selecting body of people willing to express their opinions in the group they find themselves in.
As to the non-voting, there's an interesting parallel with the way the House of Representatives has been voting on ObamaCare over the pond. Sixty times they voted to repeal it when they knew their vote would count for nothing, but as soon as their votes count they changed their minds. Similarly, it's all very well propounding solidarity with Labour when you know your vote won't count or you know you are not going to vote - but that's just all wind unless you actually face up to the ballot box, and then there's no telling how many minds will be made up differently.
This stance worries me as a general point, as it doesn't seem in principle different from the majority US antipathy to having an atheist in the White House - which I find equally distasteful. Don't get me wrong - it's important to keep religion and politics out of each other's way - but it seems to me a step too far to take that as keeping religious people out of politics (or atheists for that matter).
Miles Quaritch
Member
Corbyn isn't going anywhere.
Labour could lose a dozens of seats and it won't matter. They could be reduced to the size of the Lib Dems and it still won't matter. He's there until the bitter end. Be it his or the party's end.
And can anyone really look at Labour over the last few years and say they care? They clearly aren't interested in governing any more, they are happy to be the party of the opposition and when that sweet gig is over, they'll fracture into various irrelevant political groups.
Labour could lose a dozens of seats and it won't matter. They could be reduced to the size of the Lib Dems and it still won't matter. He's there until the bitter end. Be it his or the party's end.
And can anyone really look at Labour over the last few years and say they care? They clearly aren't interested in governing any more, they are happy to be the party of the opposition and when that sweet gig is over, they'll fracture into various irrelevant political groups.
PJV3
Member
If they do badly the remaining MPs would be more likely to take a stand if he tries to cling on, I'm just hoping for a clearer result in that regard.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Kris Brown is in Walton isn't he? Anna Martin for Garston & Halewood?
They might take a stand, but it's not clear what they could do with it. Not with Ed's legacy of one member one vote.
Not enough eye rolls in the world
i really want it to backfire. i.e people get so irritated by this and realise she's going to win massively so don't vote for her. just to serve a lesson.
it's terrible for democracy, we have a country entering a new period in its history, breaking strongly with the last forty years, and little to no debate about what this entails, just a ruthless pragmatic argument for "the best deal".
gove wrote quite persuasively pre-brexit about how leaving the eu presented fantastic opportunity for the country. it'd be nice to see that kind of vision discussed by the tories here. i think corbyn actually does have some ideas too, as a historically eurosceptic labour mp, but it's totally irrelevant because he's already too toxic for it to be listened to as so few people believe in his leadership and already despise his history. then the lib dems fair enough get to make the case for the single market/eea and are actually doing so.
i know every election ever people bemoan the state of the debate, especially when they lose, but it seems especially sad here
Huw_Dawson
Member
The issue is the rosette.
As long as Corbyn is squatting on Labour's assets and brand, the hard left run the show.
Any MP that wanted to make a new party would be starting from scratch.
But a lot of Labour MPs either do not like Farron or don't like the Lib Dems for another reason. So the only safe destination for a defection is eliminated.
This means that the more likely end point will be Corbyn stepping down to pass the baton on to an ally in the next few years, all while Labour becomes two parties in all but name - a centre-left party and Momentum.
And that centre-left party cannot do any sort of formal grouping, as the party leadership would threaten expulsion.
Meanwhile, Lib Dems do well in areas they campaign in and May gets to do whatever she wants in Number 10.
It's not a great situation for any centrist or centre-left person, and it is one of the reasons I am a Lib Dem, to try and move towards a less depressing situation.
Bugger, you're right. Kris has by far the hardest seat, although as a former Labour councillor he is the best person to fight there. Anna has G&H.
Indeed Kris will probably be standing in Walton twice - at the general versus Rotherham, and then at the by-election versus Anderson if he gets the nom.
As long as Corbyn is squatting on Labour's assets and brand, the hard left run the show.
Any MP that wanted to make a new party would be starting from scratch.
But a lot of Labour MPs either do not like Farron or don't like the Lib Dems for another reason. So the only safe destination for a defection is eliminated.
This means that the more likely end point will be Corbyn stepping down to pass the baton on to an ally in the next few years, all while Labour becomes two parties in all but name - a centre-left party and Momentum.
And that centre-left party cannot do any sort of formal grouping, as the party leadership would threaten expulsion.
Meanwhile, Lib Dems do well in areas they campaign in and May gets to do whatever she wants in Number 10.
It's not a great situation for any centrist or centre-left person, and it is one of the reasons I am a Lib Dem, to try and move towards a less depressing situation.
Bugger, you're right. Kris has by far the hardest seat, although as a former Labour councillor he is the best person to fight there. Anna has G&H.
Indeed Kris will probably be standing in Walton twice - at the general versus Rotherham, and then at the by-election versus Anderson if he gets the nom.
Randy Lanzarote
Member
A couple of cracking photos from today's campaign trail.
She's like some near approximation of a human created by aliens but they didn't get it quite right.
uncanny valley
A couple of cracking photos from today's campaign trail.
She's like some near approximation of a human created by aliens but they didn't get it quite right.
That second expression is a common occurrence.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Yougov poll! 44/31/11.
I wonder if it has gone through May's head what happens if the vote split ends up at, say, 40/35/15 Tory/Lab/LD and the Tories end up in a minority government with Farron grinning from the opposition benches after politely informing May that she can stick a coalition where the sun doesn't shine.
That would be hilarious.
Say the LDs do a really good job getting rid of Tory MPs squatting in LD seats, and Corbyn manages to convince enough of normal Labour voters that he is not totally useless. LDs gain 15, Labour doesn't take significant losses and May ends up without a majority as EU negotiations start. She'd go into coalition with the DUP if she needed a tiny number to form a majority, but I don't think she'd be very happy having a majority of 1 or 2, say.
I wonder if it has gone through May's head what happens if the vote split ends up at, say, 40/35/15 Tory/Lab/LD and the Tories end up in a minority government with Farron grinning from the opposition benches after politely informing May that she can stick a coalition where the sun doesn't shine.
That would be hilarious.
Say the LDs do a really good job getting rid of Tory MPs squatting in LD seats, and Corbyn manages to convince enough of normal Labour voters that he is not totally useless. LDs gain 15, Labour doesn't take significant losses and May ends up without a majority as EU negotiations start. She'd go into coalition with the DUP if she needed a tiny number to form a majority, but I don't think she'd be very happy having a majority of 1 or 2, say.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked