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[DECK'ARD]

No mention of electoral reform again.

What have you done Clegg ...

 

[ghst]

i think i'm going deaf, i must've missed the words "electoral reform" from that statement.

 

[thefro]

To be honest, it doesn't really have to work. It's generally more important for governments to be seen as doing something about the issue of immigration which will placate a section of the electorate that, rightly or wrongly, has concerns about immigration. I would prefer this than a BNP MP in parliament or gaining council seats because whether one likes it or not, immigration has always been one of those issues that continually has a poisonous role in politics. Look at the Arizona law in the states, most countries have this problem. At least the government can say, "look we've listened to your concerns and have done something about it".

We've had a cap here in the states for years. I think you'll end up with a situation like the US/Mexico border to a lesser extent where people come into the UK through other EU countries and stay illegally.

 

[killer_clank]

What's Mundell doing then? I'd like to think that the only Tory MP in Scotland would get a decent job.

Nothing anyones heard so far.

 

[Scum]

Did you guys really think he was going to join with Labour? I can't think it was anything more than a bartering point with the Tories. The "rainbow coalition" would've been disasterous. Who would have led it? Train wreck all over it.

I think that this is something Labour finally realised and thus, decided to give it up. It'd would probably have meant that Brown will still be sticking around, whilst they look for a leader for the party as well as someone to lead the coalition. Plus they probably couldn't offer Clegg anything better than Deputy PM anyway. Brown practically removed the position, didn't he?

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Can't believe some Lib-Dem supporters are so angry about a coalition, this is beyond what any of us could've hoped for a couple of months ago. Cameron was the only man who could have been PM after the results (unfortunately).

I'm quite hopeful myself.

We get to see a coalition in action. The worst Tory policies are discarded (a few which the Tories will be quite happy to get rid of). Lib Dems finally having some say. An unelectable Brown gone. A strong opposition who deserve to be in opposition. And AV for the next election to ensure we don't have a Tory majority to deal with again for a long time.

Labour will rise again. It's certainly better for them than hanging onto power (which would be seen as illegitimate by a lot of people, myself not included) through this difficult economic time with another "unelected pm" (I also don't think this is fundamentally wrong but many would).

In fact Labour will possibly do the best out of this deal. I feel sorry for the Liberal Democrats as their arm has been twisted, to not form a coalition would be seen as putting the country at risk. The fact that they have seemingly managed to get so much out of the Tories is testament to their bargaining skill, and the balance of the seats.

Many Tory and Lib Dem MPs and supporters will be unhappy with them getting into bed with the opposition, but there really was no choice, and If the liberal democrats truly want a more proportional system then they should not be moaning about having to form a coalition.

It could've been a whole lot worse than this.

I do have to say that throughout this the right wing press have been utterly abhorrent, and really brought out their colours. The parties and leaders particularly have acted in an exemplary fashion in my opinion.

 

[Omikaru]

Electoral reform conveniently left out of that statement. It's obvious Clegg lost on that one.

Say hello to AV. Maybe. If Labour gets the right leader to back it when the referendum is out.

 

[killer_clank]

This is apparently pretty much the deal, as reported by Guardian live blog:

Economic measures for an agreement which has deficit reduction "at its heart"

• £6b in year cuts in non frontline services subject to the advice from the treasury and the bank of england (Tory)

• Scrapping of national insurance rises (Tory)

• A substantial increase in the personal tax allowance from April 2011 with a focus on low and middle income earners, with a "long term goal" of a £10,000 personal tax allowance. There is no a timetable for this, but there is a promise to make further real term steps each year towards this objective. This is described as a "funded increase". It will be funded by taking the money the Tories had planned to use to increase the employee threshold for national insurance, and by an increase in capital gains tax for non business assets to bring it closer to the level of income tax.

• Marriage tax allowance. The liberal democrats have agreed to abstain on this, which gives the Tories a "real chance" of getting that through.

Lib Dem pledges that have been dropped

• Tax relief for higher rate pensioners will not be pursued

• Mansion tax

Tory pledges that have been dropped

• Raising the threshold on inheritance tax which is described as "unlikely to be achieved in this parliament".

Lib Dems priorities that have been secured

• Referendum to bring in some form of alternative vote system. Coalition members will be subject to three-line whip to force the legislation for a referendum through, but they will be free to campaign against the reforms before referendum.

• New pupil premium to be introduced, steering more funding to schools for every child they take from poor homes. Both parties back this policy, but the Lib Dem version attaches more money to it.

• Reducing the tax burden on low earners. This could go some way towards the Lib Dem aim of lifting tax threshold to £10,000.

• A wholly or mainly elected house of Lords.

• More equal constituency sizes

• Fixed term parliaments, including this one. The next general election will be held on the first Thursday of May 2015. Legislation will mean such agreements can only be broken by an enhanced majority of the House of Commons.

Tory priorities that have been secured

• A cap on immigration and an end to child detention immigration controls (the latter was a Lib Dem proposal).

• Welfare reform programme to be implemented in full.

• School reform programme providing all schools are held accountable.

• A commitment to maintaining Britain's nuclear deterrent. Renewal of Trident will be scrutinised to ensure value for money. Liberal Democrats will be free to continue the case for alternatives.

• The government will make no proposals to join the euro.

• No proposals to transfer new powers to the European Union.

• A referendum lock will ensure that any proposal to transfer new powers must by law be put to a referendum.

Areas that were already in agreement will see a major programme of civil liberties

• A great repeal or freedom bill to scrap the ID card scheme and the national identity register and the next generation of biometric passports

• Extending the scope of the Freedom of Information bill to provide greater transparency

* Adopt protections of the Scottish model for the DNA database

• Protecting trial by jury

• Reviewing libel laws to protect freedom of speech

• Further regulation of CCTV and other items

• Measures to boost economy in key areas such as low-carbon industries and investment in infrastructure. A green investment bank, a smart grid, retention of energy performance certificates while scrapping home information packs.

Areas of opt outs for either party

• Lib Dems will be free to maintain their opposition to nuclear power while permitting the government to put forward the national planning statement for ratification by parliament so that new nuclear construction becomes possible.

Banking reform

• A banking levy will be introduced.

• Bonuses will be tackled.

• A "more competitive banking industry".

• More credit to flow to businesses. The proposals of the respective parties will be looked at before deciding which is the better one.

• An independent commission will be set up to consider Lib Dem proposals to separate retail and investment banking and the Tories' proposals for a quasi separation. An interim report will be published within a year.

• The Bank of England could be given control of macro prudential regulation and oversight of micro prudential regulation under proposals to be put forward.

So there IS a referendum that will be whipped?

 

[Dabookerman]

No electoral reform?

Utter fail.

No Change.

 

[Shanadeus]

Well I'm glad they scrapped the ID-cards, such utter nonsense. Wish they would scrap the DNA-database though, it's a disgrace.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

No electoral reform?

Utter fail.

No Change.

Referendum to bring in some form of alternative vote system. Coalition members will be subject to three-line whip to force the legislation for a referendum through, but they will be free to campaign against the reforms before referendum.

 

[industrian]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/8676364.stm

Salmond warning to new PM Cameron

The Scottish first minister has vowed to co-operate with new UK Prime Minister David Cameron when he "acts in Scotland's interests".

But Alex Salmond warned Scotland would not be a "helpless bystander" in the face of potential spending cuts.

Conservative leader Mr Cameron replaced Gordon Brown as prime minister after agreeing a coalition with the Lib Dems.

Scottish Tory leader Annabel Goldie said the new PM would repair relations between Holyrood and Westminster.

Mr Brown and his wife Sarah arrived at their home in North Queensferry, Fife, shortly before 2300 BST after leaving Downing Street earlier on Tuesday evening.

Mr Salmond paid tribute to Mr Brown as being "almost a force of nature" in Scottish and UK politics over the past 30 years, and said that "No-one could doubt his powerful intellectual capacity, his commitment, and the strength with which he pursued his objectives."

The first minister had previously called for a "progressive alliance" to be formed between Labour, the Liberal Democrats, his own SNP and Welsh nationalist party Plaid Cymru.

He claimed the Liberal Democrats would "rue the day" they instead agreed to a deal with the Conservatives, and predicted the party's voters in Scotland would feel "totally betrayed".

Mr Salmond told the BBC: "It is a great pity not just for Scotland but for people across these islands that the idea to change politics fundamentally wasn't grasped - it was a failure of political will.

"We have Scottish elections next year, we have a government in Scotland - we are no longer helpless bystanders in this as we were in the 1980s under Margaret Thatcher's government.

"We have secured the undertaking that there will be no changes to the budget which has been implemented in Scotland for this coming year and one of the partners in this new Conservative-Liberal alliance also gave us the undertaking that there would be no change to the funding formula.

"Obviously there is a new government in place in Westminster. Where they act in Scotland's interests we will co-operate. If they act against Scotland's interests, and that would include slashing our key public services in Scotland, then obviously they would expect us to resist that very strongly."

Mr Salmond said he would write to Mr Cameron on Wednesday in order to "set out some of the issues that the Scottish government regard as important in our relationship with the UK government" ahead of the prime minister's planned visit to Scotland next week.

The first minister added: "I congratulate David Cameron on the high office he has achieved, and will speak to the new prime minister at the earliest opportunity, and will of course welcome him to St Andrew's House during his planned visit to Edinburgh."

The Tories have only one MP in Scotland, but Ms Goldie, the Scottish Conservative leader at Holyrood, said Mr Cameron would treat Scotland with "respect".

She added: "The people of Britain wanted politicians to work together for the good of the country and David Cameron is committed to doing that.

"He is committed to repairing the broken relationship between our parliaments and our governments and he has said he will treat Scotland with respect. This is an opportunity to show that we can be a government for the good of all of Britain.

"I do not underestimate the scale of the task ahead, but nobody should doubt our resolve to take Scotland and Britain forward and to act in the national interest."

Labour's Scottish Parliament leader Iain Gray said Scottish voters would "pass judgement" on the Lib Dems for their "deal with the devil".

"Labour warned that a vote for the Liberal Democrats would only help David Cameron into Downing Street, and we were right," he said.

"The great majority of Scots rejected the Tories at the election and the Liberal Democrats will pay in the months and years ahead for propping up David Cameron."

Former Scottish Secretary Jim Murphy MP said outgoing prime minister Mr Brown had made an "immense, impressive and substantial" contribution to public life" at home and across the world.

"Scots are proud of him, and proud of what he has done to make life better for those forgotten by others. He would not walk on by when others were in need," Mr Murphy said.

Last Thursday's UK general election resulted in a hung parliament, with no single party winning an overall majority of the seats at Westminster.

CBI Scotland's assistant director, David Lonsdale, said he was glad there had been a "timely outcome" to the post-election negotiations between the parties.

"What is needed now is an administration capable and willing to take firm action to eliminate the mammoth deficit in the public finances, and which has a convincing plan to rein in government debt and to pep up the economy particularly business investment and exports", Mr Lonsdale added.

Next year's election will be a lot of laughs.

 

[Empty]

huhne as home secretary and cable in the treasury are the really big wins, i think.

• Welfare reform programme to be implemented in full.

• School reform programme providing all schools are held accountable.

i was hoping we'd get some more liberal-democrats influence on these ones.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

All this "selling out" stuff is utter bollocks.

Fuck off you negative cunts, this is a positive and progressive move.

Am I the only one here who likes the idea of a coalition government?

 

[DECK'ARD]

A referendum for AV which the Tories (along with the Murdoch press) can campaign against is utterly pointless. It's doomed to failure, and the smallest possible step to electoral reform.

Equalising the size of constituencies will actually boost the Tory vote from the present situation as well, cancelling out the small losses they'd get under AV even if it passed.

The Tories really haven't given much here at all.

 

[Empty]

Am I the only one here who likes the idea of a coalition government?

no. plenty of us do, compare this to the expected tory majority from last year and it's a big win, no doubt. i was just hoping for a better deal.

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

I'm glad they are keeping Trident, hippies can go suck it. The country needs a defence system in place - even for simple MAD purposes.

But, that said, I would rather they moved it somewhere else. Faslane a little too close to Glasgow for my liking.

 

[killer_clank]

All this "selling out" stuff is utter bollocks.

Fuck off you negative cunts, this is a positive and progressive move.

Am I the only one here who likes the idea of a coalition government?

I'm definitely coming round to it, but I guess we shall see.

TBH, I'm just getting really annoyed at all the people on my Facebook joining a million and one 'We Hate David Cameron' page. At least give him a chance FFS.

 

[Gary Whitta]

The Tories publicly offered a referendum when they were panicking about a Labour deal, they can't take that back now. Can they?

 

[freethought]

Ah stability, it's the most important thing in a government. Just ask the CIA.

 

[Sage00]

I'm glad they are keeping Trident, hippies can go suck it. The country needs a defence system in place - even for simple MAD purposes.

But, that said, I would rather they moved it somewhere else. Faslane a little too close to Glasgow for my liking.

Salmond has said he'll use the devolved planning permission powers to attempt to stop it being renewed in Scotland. It'll be interesting to see.

 

[Songbird]

If this was positive or progressive, we'd have heard more about voting reform. And that's not going to happen now.

 

[Shanadeus]

I'm glad they are keeping Trident, hippies can go suck it. The country needs a defence system in place - even for simple MAD purposes.

But, that said, I would rather they moved it somewhere else. Faslane a little too close to Glasgow for my liking.

It's a waste of money that could be put to actually helping people, giving the NHS an overhaul as well as a boost for example. The US will always back up the UK anyway so long as they follow big brother's orders.

 

[PJV3]

If the £6 billion cuts do cause a double dip recession we are going to be fucked big time.
I remember the riots of the early eighties and i can see history repeating itself.

 

[Wes]

One particularly good thing to come from this:

NO FUCKING ID CARDS

 

[The Friendly Monster]

A referendum for AV which the Tories (along with the Murdoch press) can campaign against is utterly pointless. It's doomed to failure, and the smallest possible step to electoral reform.

I disagree, even with the Murdoch press the Tories only managed a boost of 4.4 points after going from Howard to Cameron and Blair to Brown.

Equalising the size of constituencies will actually boosts the Tory vote from the present situation as well, cancelling out the small losses they'd get under AV even if it passed.

I think people are massively understating what effect AV would have on the result. Are there any reputable studies which don't use the near worthless "second choice" question?

The Tories really haven't given much here at all.

For 57 seats? Seems like a lot to me.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

The Tories publicly offered a referendum when they were panicking about a Labour deal, they can't take that back now. Can they?

I don't think so.

If the £6 billion cuts do cause a double dip recession we are going to be fucked big time.
I remember the riots of the early eighties and i can see history repeating itself.

Scare stories.

 

[dogmaan]

It's a waste of money that could be put to actually helping people, giving the NHS an overhaul as well as a boost for example. The US will always back up the UK anyway so long as they follow big brother's orders.

Nuclear weapons have saved more lives than the NHS ever will, if it wasn't for nuclear weapons WWII would still be going on now.

Oceania Has Always Been at War With Eurasia....etc

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

It's a waste of money that could be put to actually helping people, giving the NHS an overhaul as well as a boost for example.

You need homeland defence though, especially when most of your armed forces are overseas - otherwise you'll have all these fit people with a great healthcare system who can be wiped out in an instant. I do agree with Salmond, I want it out of Scotland too, but not out of the UK.

 

[Shanadeus]

You need homeland defence though, especially when most of your armed forces are overseas - otherwise you'll have all these fit people with a great healthcare system who can be wiped out in an instant. I do agree with Salmond, I want it out of Scotland too, but not out of the UK.

Nuclear weapons have saved more lives than the NHS ever will, if it wasn't for nuclear weapons WWII would still be going on now.

Oceania Has Always Been at War With Eurasia....etc

Then rely on the nuclear weapons of the US, they won't be getting rid of them anytime soon.
Why wave around the Trident-penis when you could have the US wave around their big nuclear dick for you?

 

[Zenith]

• A great repeal or freedom bill to scrap the ID card scheme and the national identity register and the next generation of biometric passports

• Extending the scope of the Freedom of Information bill to provide greater transparency

* Adopt protections of the Scottish model for the DNA database

• Protecting trial by jury

• Reviewing libel laws to protect freedom of speech

Thank fuck.

And none of you know how the public will react to a referendum on AV. It's definitely not as airy-fairy as a "committee to study and report later".

 

[Empty]

just realized that my vote has actually been represented. now i have to feel guilty when the government screws up. oh god.

 

[dogmaan]

Why wave around the Trident-penis when you could have the US wave around their big nuclear dick for you?

Why Toss yourself off when you could have your mum do it for you?

 

[Varion]

And none of you know how the public will react to a referendum on AV. It's definitely not as airy-fairy as a "committee to study and report later".

Agreed. I have no doubt people will be worried about the influence of the Murdoch press... but they couldn't get a Conservative majority despite their best efforts, who's to say they'll be able to get everyone to vote no on a referendum? I wouldn't be surprised if most of the people who read trash like the Sun don't even bother voting on it.

 

[D4Danger]

Why wave around the Trident-penis when you could have the US wave around their big nuclear dick for you?

How's that working out for Israel?

 

[Sage00]

How's that working out for Israel?

Don't be stupid. Look at the region Israel is in.

Germany has no nuclear weapons of its own and relies on the US. Do you think Germany feels they are in danger? No, they don't, and they're not idiots wasting their own money on something so expensive. German efficiency, we need it.

 

[DECK'ARD]

I disagree, even with the Murdoch press the Tories only managed a boost of 4.4 points after going from Howard to Cameron and Blair to Brown.

I think people are massively understating what effect AV would have on the result. Are there any reputable studies which don't use the near worthless "second choice" question?

For 57 seats? Seems like a lot to me.

Ranking candidates in order will barely effect the status quo. The big parties will maintain their positions being the first choice or second choice behind a 3rd party vote, the Lib Dems will gain slightly, the smaller parties will lose out.

Basic AV makes things less representative, which is why it came out bottom when they reviewed the options available. If that is the form of AV that's going to be offered the Lib Dems haven't gained anything towards PR, their core belief, which is probably why Nick Clegg has stopped mentioning electoral reform.

There's good to have come out of this whole deal, but the price is 5 years of a slightly-neutered Tory Government, the Lib Dems becoming synonymous with conservative rather than progressive policies, and probably no chance of the UK ever seeing something like STV and a truly fair voting system.

It's a bit of a bitter pill to swallow this.

 

[D4Danger]

Don't be stupid. Look at the region Israel is in.

Germany has no nuclear weapons of its own and relies on the US. Do you think Germany feels they are in danger? No, they don't, and they're not idiots wasting their own money on something so expensive. German efficiency, we need it.

I'm pretty sure that's not why Germany didn't get nukes when they were handing them out.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Thank fuck.

And none of you know how the public will react to a referendum on AV. It's definitely not as airy-fairy as a "committee to study and report later".

But how can lib dem supporters ever be upset with a referendum on AV? It's something that would never have come around without a hung parliament and coalition, and even if you want electoral reform it's hardly unreasonable to have a referendum on it first.

I do happen to think that it would be massively supported in a referendum at the moment, down the line ironically it depends on the success of this government. If this coalition is seen as reasonably successful by the time of the vote (as the tories should want) then it will probably pass, if it's an absolute clusterfuck then it the public will probably be less sympathetic to a system which will lead to more coalition governments. Quite a funny situation for the Tories.

Also what about the time-frame? Presumably this will happen sometime not too long before the next general election, as at any other time it seems a little off topic. Whether the protests and cries for STV keep up before then or force it to be brought sooner who knows.

 

[dogmaan]

Don't be stupid. Look at the region Israel is in.

Germany has no nuclear weapons of its own and relies on the US. Do you think Germany feels they are in danger? No, they don't, and they're not idiots wasting their own money on something so expensive. German efficiency, we need it.

And German/EU security would be affected if we got rid of Trident.

 

[Gary Whitta]

I'm pretty sure that's not why Germany didn't get nukes when they were handing them out.

The fact that not having nukes wasn't their choice doesn't change the fact that their economy benefits greatly from not having to spend money on them. The Japanese don't seem to have suffered too greatly from being nuclear-free either.

 

[electroshockwave]

Nuclear weapons have saved more lives than the NHS ever will, if it wasn't for nuclear weapons WWII would still be going on now.

You can't be serious...

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Ranking candidates in order will barely effect the status quo. The big parties will maintain their positions being the first choice or second choice behind a 3rd party vote, the Lib Dems will gain slightly, the smaller parties will lose out.

You do not know this, and yet you are stating it to be fact. It blows open the fucking "marginals" we have where the only people who have a vote that will make a difference are the ones who a forced into voting for a party they don't support, and destroys the "split vote" between the Labour and Lib Dem candidates which allows the Tories to take a large number of seats.

In fact it puts an end to tactical voting on a local level, which is a blight on our political system.

Basic AV makes things less representative, which is why it came out bottom when they reviewed the options available. If that is the form of AV that's going to be offered the Lib Dems haven't gained anything towards PR, their core belief, which is probably why Nick Clegg has stopped mentioning electoral reform.

Basic AV is not "less representative" than FPTP, even if you assume that people vote for their first choice in FPTP.

Agreed it isn't a step towards PR, in fact it might be a step back, if we do get AV then I can't imagine further electoral reform could be on the cards for a while. It is however a massively more fair voting system.

If the lib dems were aren't happy with AV being offered, why the fuck would they have got the Tories to offer it in the first place? Did the Tories force it upon them?

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

Then rely on the nuclear weapons of the US, they won't be getting rid of them anytime soon.
Why wave around the Trident-penis when you could have the US wave around their big nuclear dick for you?

MAD only really works when the country being threatened has the arsenal of its own - the whole point of Trident is not actually to use them, it's just a really effective placard which says to the rest of the world: "don't fuck with us". It gives the UK some realistic power in the world stage. Having the US protect you is akin to getting your dad to fight your battles. And who's to say that the US wouldn't back out of the arrangement for whatever reason? Then you have to invest more money getting a new defence system started up again, are utterly defenceless, have no MAD etc..

 

[Sage00]

And German/EU security would be affected if we got rid of Trident.

No it wouldn't.

Here are the locations of US nuclear weapons in Europe.

 

[Shanadeus]

MAD only really works when the country being threatened has the arsenal of its own - the whole point of Trident is not actually to use them, it's just a really effective placard which says to the rest of the world: "don't fuck with us". It gives the UK some realistic power in the world stage. Having the US protect you is akin to getting your dad to fight your battles. And who's to say that the US wouldn't back out of the arrangement for whatever reason? Then you have to invest more money getting a new defence system started up again, are utterly defenceless, have no MAD etc..

:lol

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Nuclear weapons have saved more lives than the NHS ever will, if it wasn't for nuclear weapons WWII would still be going on now.

Oceania Has Always Been at War With Eurasia....etc

:lol Is this a sincere quote from the Ministry of Truth to try and justify defence?

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

:lol

Hippie.

 

[MarshMellow96]

So like, what's the beef on ID cards for? Besides tax money towards them etc...

 

[firehawk12]

No electoral reform?

Utter fail.

No Change.

Yeah, called it. That's probably the biggest win for the Tories.