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UK PoliGAF: General election thread of LibCon Coalitionage

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Ghost

Chili Con Carnage!
Polls are pretty crazy right now, they all seem to have all 3 parties within the margin of error of each other.

Something I'm sure Cameron and Brown will be eager to point out is that even if the liberals hit 30% of the vote they will still probably only win 70-100 seats.

The political strategies are so interesting now, Clegg is stealing the chance at an outright majority from both parties, do they attack him to get his votes and risk alienating him if we get a hung parliament? or do they continue to agree with him and risk losing even more votes and seats?


I think we can bet on Brown to play defence and try to keep Clegg on side, but what does Cameron do? Do the tories have a the legitimacy to shoot down the Liberals on anything?
 

Zenith

Banned
2)What have we benefited from apart from more unchecked immigrants. We have gained nothing that have been benefit to us.

um, you have heard of the common market right? No EU membership means no common market access means everyone charges us tariffs to import our goods into their countries means our exports plummet means we join Iceland in economic oblivion.

It's only the entire reason the EU was founded........
 

Chinner

Banned
Mandelson and Brown were expecting Clegg to succeed, but from what I've read they've been taken back by how successful he is. From their actions it looks like Brown will continue to support them, after all, a LIB-LAB coalition is better than nothing. I'm not expecting much to change, but the Tories will probably be more aggressive.

Still, the next debate is on foreign policy. It should work out pretty well, except the Tories might be able to exploit the fact that the Lib Dems are pretty pro-EU and this country is full of Euroscepticism.

Then the last debate is on the economy and no doubt banking will come up. This should playout pretty well for Clegg.
 
Linkified said:
I'm goign to get attacked for this but whats exactly wrong about wanting communities to have more power.


"more power for communities" means less actual money for them, but allegedly leading to "can do" attitude from volunteers/community groups.

So the hate isn't unfounded, it's a general disdain for the policy that giving less money to people will mean they will work harder to do it themselves.
 

Linkified

Member
Zenith said:
um, you have heard of the common market right? No EU membership means no common market access means everyone charges us tariffs to import our goods into their countries means our exports plummet means we join Iceland in economic oblivion.

It's only the entire reason the EU was founded........

I agree that EU is a good trade agreement system. The things I don't like about it is the cost in expense to britain - where we could be using that money to pay off debts, and the other is the policy making aspect.
 

Linkified

Member
Chinner said:
Mandelson and Brown were expecting Clegg to succeed, but from what I've read they've been taken back by how successful he is. From their actions it looks like Brown will continue to support them, after all, a LIB-LAB coalition is better than nothing. I'm not expecting much to change, but the Tories will probably be more aggressive.

Still, the next debate is on foreign policy. It should work out pretty well, except the Tories might be able to exploit the fact that the Lib Dems are pretty pro-EU and this country is full of Euroscepticism.

Then the last debate is on the economy and no doubt banking will come up. This should playout pretty well for Clegg.

Actually on the last debate one could argue that Torries could use the Europsceptism and the Lib Dems push to join the single currency to their advantage.
 

Omikaru

Member
travisbickle said:
"more power for communities" means less actual money for them, but allegedly leading to "can do" attitude from volunteers/community groups.

So the hate isn't unfounded, it's a general disdain for the policy that giving less money to people will mean they will work harder to do it themselves.
Exactly. On paper it sounds like a nice idea; communities putting money into a local pot to fund local projects. In reality, it means the poorer communities who can't afford these projects will suffer with a lower standard of... well... everything.

"Big society" is about passively crushing all the little guys. It's totally unfair.
 

Chinner

Banned
Linkified said:
Actually on the last debate one could argue that Torries could use the Europsceptism and the Lib Dems push to join the single currency to their advantage.
thats what i said, it's something that they could spin.
 

Wes

venison crêpe
The Observer: Nick Clegg appeals to youth vote as Liberal Democrats maintain poll surge

Nick Clegg will launch a major campaign today to win the youth vote amid signs that young people are backing the Liberal Democrats in increasing numbers following last week's televised leaders' debate.

The Liberal Democrat leader, hoping to maintain the sudden surge for his party in the polls, will appeal to those aged 18 to 25 to register to vote before Tuesday's deadline.

The move is similar to that launched by Barack Obama during his campaign for the White House. Obama urged young Americans not to waste their vote and to join his campaign.

Clegg told the Observer: "I will be saying to young people that this is their chance to make a difference. It will be a message of hope, but also one of urgency. They can really affect this election campaign, but to do so they have to register."

Clegg, who appealed to the electorate during the debate to "do something different", saw his party leapfrog Labour into second, and cut the Tory lead to three points, in a YouGov poll yesterday.

A series of new polls out today are also impressive for the party and show a dramatic shrinking of the Tory lead. A ComRes poll for the Independent on Sunday and Sunday Mirror puts David Cameron's party on 31%, the Lib Dems on 29% and Labour on 27%. Two polls even suggest the party is now leading both Conservatives and Labour. Such an outcome would give Gordon Brown's party most seats in the Commons – perhaps explaining why Labour aides are more comfortable with the Lib Dem surge.

Campaigning in Bedford, Brown claimed to be the only leader of substance. "As the dust settles after the first two weeks, people will have all their views about style and about presentation," he said. "But an election like this comes down to big choices people have to make about the big issues of the future."

It comes as Cameron uses an article in today's Observer to outline his vision for a Big Society.

He reveals a Tory government would make all government data available to the public unless there is good reason for it to remain private. This plan would include releasing crime data on a street-by-street basis.

The Conservative leader was campaigning in his own constituency of Witney, Oxon, yesterday when he was berated by a former soldier. The man, accompanied by his young daughter, confronted Cameron as he canvassed voters . "I met you… years ago, my wife was pregnant with this one," he said. "Come back from Germany, nowhere to live, little one, just left the army – got back from Kosovo. You gave me your card and you said, 'Give me a ring and I'll help you out' – 30-odd phone calls and you didn't ring me back once."

Cameron said he was "very sorry about that, because I try to answer all the emails, all the messages", and asked if there was "anything I can do to help you now", but was told the situation had been resolved.

Cameron aides said the local party chairman had spoken to the man and was following up the case.

The party will spend this week hitting back at the Liberal Democrats. Poll data suggests the boost for Clegg's party is coming largely from the under-45s.

One poll gave Clegg's party a huge lead – 44 points – among those aged 18-34 compared with 28 for the Conservatives and 24 for Labour. Clegg knows that he will need to push for young people to register if he is to translate the support into votes on 6 May.

Figures issued last month by the Electoral Commission suggested that 56% of those under 25 and eligible to vote were not on the electoral roll.

A surge in the past couple of weeks, however, saw 250,000 people register online, of whom 40% were under 25. At the 2005 election, only 37% of young people voted.

All three parties spent the weekend reassessing strategy following the first of the three television debates. While Labour has seen its support fall after Brown came third in voters' polls following the debate, the party accused Cameron of running scared of a television interview with the BBC's most forceful interviewer, Jeremy Paxman. Clegg appeared on the Paxman slot last Monday and Brown has also agreed to appear. But Cameron aides said late yesterday that the Tory leader would take part in an interview.

This week Labour will try to turn the focus back on to the economy – the area judged most successful for Brown in Thursday's debate – before the release of official figures on unemployment and economic growth.

Labour's watchword for the week "big". Trying to make Clegg look lightweight.
 

Walshicus

Member
Linkified said:
I agree that EU is a good trade agreement system. The things I don't like about it is the cost in expense to britain - where we could be using that money to pay off debts, and the other is the policy making aspect.
Ever wondered why Norway - which is not an EU state - pays a great deal of money to the EU and ends up adopting the majority of EU law?

The cost of membership is less than the gains from membership, and while some Norway style position outside-but-really-inside might appeal to those who've taken in UKIP rhetoric, the simple fact is the direct costs wouldn't change and we'd be left adopting laws our people had no say in, rather than adopting laws our people influenced through the European parliament and the Council of Ministers...
 

Chinner

Banned
Also, another reason why Labour probably won't start attacking the Lib Dems:

If went to the voting booths with what the polls are showing now (Tory> LD > LAB), then Labour would hold onto the most seats.
 

Linkified

Member
Sir Fragula said:
Ever wondered why Norway - which is not an EU state - pays a great deal of money to the EU and ends up adopting the majority of EU law?

The cost of membership is less than the gains from membership, and while some Norway style position outside-but-really-inside might appeal to those who've taken in UKIP rhetoric, the simple fact is the direct costs wouldn't change and we'd be left adopting laws our people had no say in, rather than adopting laws our people influenced through the European parliament and the Council of Ministers...

Or just not take up EU laws and say sod em.
 

Chinner

Banned
Wes said:
Clegg himself has an almost unprecedented approval rating of 72%, ahead of Cameron on 19% and Brown on minus 18%.
The Lib Dems last night said they would resist the squeeze from the two main parties and revealed a surge in donations, with £120,000, mainly in small sums, coming in during the 24 hours after the debate.
Jesus christ.
 

Walshicus

Member
Linkified said:
Or just not take up EU laws and say sod em.
Yeah, because that's a rational position for a government of 60m to take. Okay, so the UK no longer adhers to... say, Directive 2002/95/EC and the remaining states stop importing our electronics.

Look, your position is completely oversimplified and I suspect founded on a bunch of bullshit lies provided by some tabloid. There is a reason why every government - both Labour and Conservative - since our accession has driven forward with European integration - because it is right and beneficial to the people of our countries.
 

Omikaru

Member
Linkified said:
Well that proves it we'll become more Euro country. Will have to try and move abroad to find a job. It was great knowing you Great Britain.
:lol :lol :lol

I can't wait until some xenophobe in whatever country you go to moans about you taking their jobs or something.
 

Linkified

Member
Sir Fragula said:
Yeah, because that's a rational position for a government of 60m to take. Okay, so the UK no longer adhers to... say, Directive 2002/95/EC and the remaining states stop importing our electronics.

Look, your position is completely oversimplified and I suspect founded on a bunch of bullshit lies provided by some tabloid. There is a reason why every government - both Labour and Conservative - since our accession has driven forward with European integration - because it is right and beneficial to the people of our countries.

Its not though we could announce we just wanted the common market and we weren't going to adopt any European laws. And they would go oh right, and not do a damn thing - because all you need is one country to accept trade. They don't have any power to enforce their laws as it is neither do they have any real power to enforce blocks on trade.
 

Walshicus

Member
Omikaru said:
:lol :lol :lol

I can't wait until some xenophobe in whatever country you go to moans about you taking their jobs or something.
Yeah... "too many im'grnts! Too many Euroes! Fuck it I'm going abroad."

o_O
 

Linkified

Member
Omikaru said:
:lol :lol :lol

I can't wait until some xenophobe in whatever country you go to moans about you taking their jobs or something.

High tech jobs qualified and all that best man for the job stuff. Heck if an australian neurosurgeon came across and was the best man for job I don't have a problem. I have the problem with low skilled immigrants taking low skilled jobs. But whatever...
 

Linkified

Member
Sir Fragula said:
Yeah... "too many im'grnts! Too many Euroes! Fuck it I'm going abroad."

o_O

You know there are other countries outside of Europe i.e. US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand.

Plus its not about immigrants, its Lib Dems in general.
 

Dooraven

Member
Linkified said:
You know there are other countries outside of Europe i.e. US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand.

You might want to rule out New Zealand. We are much more leftist than the United Kingdom.
 

Walshicus

Member
Linkified said:
Its not though we could announce we just wanted the common market and we weren't going to adopt any European laws. And they would go oh right, and not do a damn thing - because all you need is one country to accept trade. They don't have any power to enforce their laws as it is neither do they have any real power to enforce blocks on trade.
Clearly they do because they've been enforced in the past. I mean I'm sure if we withdrew from the EU they'd be happy to offer us a deal similar to Norway in return for access to the Single Market... but we'd be paying just as much for it and implementing the 90% of the same laws just without us having a say on them. This is the problem you people have when it comes to Europe - you see it as "us and them" when it's really "us and us". My girlfriend's father works for the EU as a consultant on counter-narcotics; another friend is involved in preventing Human trafficking. All of these are policy areas that have benefitted hugely from being integrated at the EU level. I just don't see why you can't see that there are massive economies of scale we gain from with the EU.



You know there are other countries outside of Europe i.e. US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand.
Nothing in my post implied that I thought you'd be going to Europe, so I don't know why you made this comment.
 

Linkified

Member
Sir Fragula said:
Clearly they do because they've been enforced in the past. I mean I'm sure if we withdrew from the EU they'd be happy to offer us a deal similar to Norway in return for access to the Single Market... but we'd be paying just as much for it and implementing the 90% of the same laws just without us having a say on them. This is the problem you people have when it comes to Europe - you see it as "us and them" when it's really "us and us". My girlfriend's father works for the EU as a consultant on counter-narcotics; another friend is involved in preventing Human trafficking. All of these are policy areas that have benefitted hugely from being integrated at the EU level. I just don't see why you can't see that there are massive economies of scale we gain from with the EU.




Nothing in my post implied that I thought you'd be going to Europe, so I don't know why you made this comment.

If we weren't a member why should we still pay and implement their laws. We as a country should not pay to join the single market it should be a free agreement.
 

jas0nuk

Member
My god... the media are building Clegg up for a huge fall. He might be a "change" from the two main parties but what has he done to be compared with someone like Churchill?

People will be watching the 2nd debate expecting him to grow angel wings and float above the lecturn and for Cameron and Brown to admit defeat there and then.

I think people have gone crazy.
 

Walshicus

Member
Linkified said:
If we weren't a member why should we still pay and implement their laws. We as a country should not pay to join the single market it should be a free agreement.
Because that's not the way the world works.

And once again, we gain more financially from being in the EU than it costs us to be in. If that wasn't the case we wouldn't be in there at the moment. Take off the tabloid hate-goggles and think on this one.


My god... the media are building Clegg up for a huge fall. He might be a "change" from the two main parties but what has he done to be compared with someone like Churchill?

People will be watching the 2nd debate expecting him to grow angel wings and float above the lecturn and for Cameron and Brown to admit defeat there and then.

I think people have gone crazy.
He offers a way out of the two-party system we've grown to hate. That gives people hope for real change, real voting change, real political change. People don't want a Conservative government, people don't want a singular Labour government... they want the Liberals IN government, somehow.
 

Dooraven

Member
jas0nuk said:
My god... the media are building Clegg up for a huge fall. He might be a "change" from the two main parties but what has he done to be compared with someone like Churchill?

People will be watching the 2nd debate expecting him to grow angel wings and float above the lecturn and for Cameron and Brown to admit defeat there and then.

I think people have gone crazy.

I'm pretty sure that is their intention. The media has always liked betting on the two party system and Nick Clegg's performance has disrupted their plans. So the best and easiest thing to do would make him hyped up so much that it would be impossible for him not to disappoint at the next sky debate.
 
Linkified said:
If we weren't a member why should we still pay and implement their laws. We as a country should not pay to join the single market it should be a free agreement.

Because 50% of our trade is with Europe and a ton of our jobs are connected to Europe, such as the Nissan Europe factory in Sunderland. As has been said, if we're not in the EU, we either pay a fee to be in the common market or pay HUEG tariffs on everything to and from there and in some cases probably both.

The EU isn't perfect, as I've said before I believe that either the Council or Commission (more the latter) should be scrapped, so that we have a clear two tier system of executive (Council of 27 leaders and their minions) and Parliament. Parliament should also be able to propose laws and have a prominent PM. Barroso's job is defunct now that Von Rompuy has one, we need clear leaders of the EU, then I think opinion might be more warm toward it.
 

Linkified

Member
I would so love it if Lib Dems got in, announced we were going to a single currency and The Queen comes in and replaces the PM. Would be so great.
 

Mr. Sam

Member
Linkified said:
Well that proves it we'll become more Euro country. Will have to try and move abroad to find a job.

Try Belgium, I hear they have openings.

The Mail on Sunday supposedly has a poll in which the Lib Dems come out on top. This is usually the bit where I wake up.
 

Zenith

Banned
Linkified said:
Or just not take up EU laws and say sod em.

you really have no idea how trade works do you?

They don't have any power to enforce their laws as it is neither do they have any real power to enforce blocks on trade.

yes they do. do you literally not know anything about the EU and its workings?

typical dumb bullshit that has nothing to do with reality.
 

Chinner

Banned
Linkified said:
I would so love it if Lib Dems got in, announced we were going to a single currency and The Queen comes in and replaces the PM. Would be so great.
wvd47k.gif
 

avaya

Member
Linkified said:
I would so love it if Lib Dems got in, announced we were going to a single currency and The Queen comes in and replaces the PM. Would be so great.

The Queen is German, she wants the Euro too.
 

sohois

Member
Do any of you really want immediate euro integration? Sure, long term it will be better for the country if we do, but for the next few years at least it seems like it would be wiser to have control over our currency lest more financial problems arise.
 

Wes

venison crêpe
Watching the Politics Show on BBC1.

Every single mention of the debate to Tory or Labour people just makes Clegg sound even better.
 

Scipius

Member
sohois said:
Do any of you really want immediate euro integration? Sure, long term it will be better for the country if we do, but for the next few years at least it seems like it would be wiser to have control over our currency lest more financial problems arise.

I'm not sure the Eurozone would welcome Sterling in this financial climate. All that Sterling-denominated debt added to the Eurozone's?

Anyway, best of luck to Clegg. Last time you lot had an Anglo-Dutch combination in charge, you didn't do too badly, did you?
 

avaya

Member
sohois said:
Do any of you really want immediate euro integration? Sure, long term it will be better for the country if we do, but for the next few years at least it seems like it would be wiser to have control over our currency lest more financial problems arise.

Any integration proposed now would take 4-5years at least to implement anyway.
 

Linkified

Member
avaya said:
The Queen is German, she wants the Euro too.

Of course she doesn't she wants her own currency.

And to the people telling me I don't know how free trade works I do its just Euro single market is too political for its own good. If Country A wants to trade with Country B why should they take and uphold laws from Europe theres really no point. Its because we haven't had a stong leader to basically tell Europe to fuck off.

As currently we can't influence any laws to favour us in the EU.
 

avaya

Member
Linkified said:
Of course she doesn't she wants her own currency.

And to the people telling me I don't know how free trade works I do its just Euro single market is too political for its own good. If Country A wants to trade with Country B why should they take and uphold laws from Europe theres really no point. Its because we haven't had a stong leader to basically tell Europe to fuck off.

As currently we can't influence any laws to favour us in the EU.

No you really don't know how trade works.
 

Empty

Member
Not sure why people are fear-mongering over Lib Dems position over the euro, if they do propose that -- it is a long term aspiration for the far future rather than a short term concrete plan -- then it is most likely that it'll be a referendum on it. So if you don't like it, don't vote for it and campaign against it. Seems like a weird point to pick up on unless you think that them wanting to join the euro years ago is a sign of wider economic incompetence.
 
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