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[Chinner]

You Brits just need to elect Jeremy Clarkson and all will be well.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

That's a rather American attitude. Conversely, both America's main parties are pretty right wing to us.

What can I say, I'm American.

I prefer the American way of doing things - TV ads: "this guy's a liar, this guy's great." Direct, like real men. Cameron getting Murdoch to do his dirty work for him, pfft.

Trust me when you see the repeated to the point where you miss just seeing the wall to wall ED ads, you'll long for the British approach.

 

[Dabookerman]

You Brits just need to elect Jeremy Clarkson and all will be well.

He would turn the country into would big race track :lol

If I had to seriously choose, my vote would go to Charlie Brooker.

I like that the belief in a God isn't a prerequisite to become a leader of the UK. Unlike a certain country.

 

[Mr. Sam]

If I had to seriously choose, my vote would go to Charlie Brooker.

Pfft! David Mitchell. Search your feelings.

 

[Parl]

Trust me when you see the repeated to the point where you miss just seeing the wall to wall ED ads, you'll long for the British approach.

I much prefer having terrible politics in newpapers than having terrible politics on television. Besides, there's also the BBC to counterbalance, and a few decent enough newspaper anyway.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I much prefer having terrible politics in newpapers than having terrible politics on television.

Yeah, the worst part of living in Pennsylvania (which I loved living in) was that New Jersey (since it sucks) has the same TV ad market as us. So not only did we get wall to wall election ads we also got ones for New Jersey (which are some of the nastiest in the nation), and they often played more than the PA ones and for some really minor ass positions too.

 

[SmokyDave]

Pfft! David Mitchell. Search your feelings.

I searched my feelings. I chose Brian Blessed in full on "Blood, Blood, Blood!" mode.

 

[Chinner]

Good article by Left Foot Forward.
http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/04/nick-clegg-is-right-the-special-relationship-is-over/

Our transatlantic affair has for decades now dominated British foreign policy. Regan and Thatcher were the very best of friends, and as for Tony Blair and George Bush? Truly this was a romance born of Mills and Boon – just don’t mention the war(s)!

Behind the scenes though, whilst we have been wrapped up with parliamentary expenses, economic meltdown and now an over excitable mountain, something has happened. A new leader has taken the reins of power in the White House, a leader who remembers not the Cold War, a leader with as many historical ties to Asia and Africa as he has to dear old Blighty.

It is a sad fact of the times but alas, we have been collectively dumped; and it is not just Nick Clegg who has noticed this.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Good article by Left Foot Forward.
http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/04/nick-clegg-is-right-the-special-relationship-is-over/

Yes, so be the bitches of Germany and France. :lol

 

[Cindres]

Also Reggae Reggae Nick Cleggs Fault!

:lol :lol
Oh man this is fantastic.

Really looking forward to tonight's debate. Should be an interesting one for sure.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Yes, so be the bitches of Germany and France. :lol

if the decision was between being france's bitch and america's bitch when it comes to foreign policy, you think that the last decade demonstrates the superiority of the latter option? no thanks.

 

[Nexus Zero]

Yes, so be the bitches of Germany and France. :lol

Well that's the difference - they are our peers. You can delude yourself till infinity but America is not.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

if the decision was between being france's bitch and america's bitch when it comes to foreign policy, you think that the last decade demonstrates the superiority of the latter option? no thanks.

In the end how bad has England suffered for Iraq and Afganistan? 426 Casualties.

That's still less then a third caused during the two day Third Anglo-Afghan War in 1919. Hell more people died of Cholera than in combat deaths in the Iraq and Afghanistan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Anglo-Afghan_War

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Well that's the difference - they are our peers. You can delude yourself till infinity but America is not.

You honestly thing that Germany and France will ever view the UK as its peer to be on equal status with it.

 

[The Librarian]

Let's compare US elections against UK elections.

lol

 

[Chinner]

can't watch in uk, and from what i've seen don't really like john stewart anyway. he just reads something that sounds stupid and then makes a "this is stupid" face and acts in despair. colbert is way better.

 

[Empty]

Let's compare US elections against UK elections.

lol

They blocked UK IP addresses from watching The Daily Show clips online back last year. It is rather irritating.

In the end how bad has England suffered for Iraq and Afganistan? 426 Casualties.

That's still less then a third caused during the two day Third Anglo-Afghan War in 1919. Hell more people died of Cholera than in combat deaths in the Iraq and Afghanistan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Anglo-Afghan_War

Well there are other ways we suffered than just in our own troops' casualties. We suffered massive losses to our international credibility by acting as the world police in an illegally waged war, hurting diplomatic relations and embarassing us on the world stage; we angered muslim communities making many in our country go in a more radical direction and encouraged attacks like the 7/7 bombings in our territories, which have a direct impact on our society. We also brought upon ourselves huge financial costs in waging those wars, that we could have better appropriated towards education, health, the deficit, and we focused our political attention on that conflict rather than focusing on improving other areas of our society.

 

[Meadows]

In the end how bad has England suffered for Iraq and Afganistan? 426 Casualties.

That's still less then a third caused during the two day Third Anglo-Afghan War in 1919. Hell more people died of Cholera than in combat deaths in the Iraq and Afghanistan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Anglo-Afghan_War

Your stupidity is astonishing and unbridled.

 

[iapetus]

In the end how bad has England suffered for Iraq and Afganistan? 426 Casualties.

And half of those were friendly fire incidents by US forces.

 

[Chinner]

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/public-accounts/2010/04/poplar-prescott-ground

Labour helpers attacked by Tory candidates. Who wants to bet to see if the right wing media covers this?

From Prescotts twitter:

Tory council candidate in Poplar Martin Coxall attacked two women in scuffle trying to get me. Expect this from BNP not Tories

Prescott owns.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

And half of those were friendly fire incidents by US forces.

Point being?

Your stupidity is astonishing and unbridled.

Don't act like you've shouldered this unbelievable suffering and hardship when you haven't. British forces got the more stabler areas of Iraq to deal with.

We suffered massive losses to our international credibility by acting as the world police in an illegally waged war, hurting diplomatic relations and embarassing us on the world stage;

At best that only applies to Iraq, and besides war is war. The concept of an illegal war has always been a bit funny to me, what's going to happen, is the UN going to give out 500 fine like a moving violation. :lol

we angered muslim communities making many in our country go in a more radical direction and encouraged attacks like the 7/7 bombings in our territories,

9/11 happened before Iraq and Afghanistan, the world wasn't born on 9/11 (not to sound condescending, I just think a lot of the issues truly predate Iraq and Afghanistan.

We also brought upon ourselves huge financial costs in waging those wars, that we could have better appropriated towards education, health, the deficit, and we focused our political attention on that conflict rather than focusing on improving other areas of our society.

Valid, and I don't disagree with you one bit. I think the others are a bit moral high grounding and not looking at a bigger picture. The loss of Treasure and Blood are both very valid reasons and for that I don't blame British discontent one bit.

 

[Chinner]

what point are you trying to prove manos?

 

[Meadows]

Point being?



Don't act like you've shouldered this unbelievable suffering and hardship when you haven't. British forces got the more stabler areas of Iraq to deal with.

*Smashes head on table*. How about I send you to the fucking "stable" parts of Iraq that British forces patrolled. And what about Afghanistan? The fucking Helmand Province is one of the most hostile, inhospitable zones in the country.

British forces have made up the second largest contingent of the forces in Afghanistan and formerly Iraq. For you to belittle this is insulting, unintelligent and incomprehensible.

This must have been super fun for the soldiers in Iraq!:

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

*Smashes head on table*. How about I send you to the fucking "stable" parts of Iraq that British forces patrolled.

Bro, you and Sean Penn going to hook me up with a guided tour. :lol

And what about Afghanistan? The fucking Helmand Province is one of the most hostile, inhospitable zones in the country.

I was referring to Iraq, not Afghanistan. People tend to lump the two together even though the circumstances, legal issues, justifications, are totally different.

British forces have made up the second largest contingent of the forces in Afghanistan and formerly Iraq. For you to belittle this is insulting, unintelligent and incomprehensible.

I don't belittle their contribution, just that the risk assumption they have versus what the US Army and US Marines have is nothing by comparison.

The irony of this all is I don't think I've ever voted for more than two Republicans in my life (and one of them Arlen Spector is now a Democrat) and am constantly liberal as hell on social issues, but by comparison in this thread I come off as the the Arch Neo-Con plotting the subjugation of the world. Thats politics lol

 

[Nexus Zero]

You honestly thing that Germany and France will ever view the UK as its peer to be on equal status with it.

I honestly thing that.

 

[Chinner]

oh right manos is turning this into a penis comparison thread. alas the debate is not long off so i guess its something to keep people distracted.

 

[Meadows]

I come off as the the Arch Neo-Con plotting the subjugation of the world. Thats politics lol

No, I'd argue you come off as a twat who doesn't know a thing about the British contribution to Afghanistan and Iraq, and what damage the US has done to the British reputation, and neglects to remember the constant friendly fire incidents caused by your, and this is my opinion, overly trigger happy army.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

what point are you trying to prove manos?

Nothing really, keep in mind I'm only looking at which party winning helps the US the best, logically that outcome is skewed to American objectives. Obviously my views massively differ from what most British voters are looking for.

Special Relationship aside, my big fear is the UK joining the Euro and fully integrating into the EU (besides my own views on sovereignty), as it would remove the UK as a good middle man between the US and Continental Europe and push the UK more towards France and Germany. In a sense its a bit of old school power balancing.

 

[Chinner]

self interest then? fair enough, i don't really agree but i understand your reasoning.

 

[Empty]

Well i'm glad we agree, but to clarify a few points.

At best that only applies to Iraq, and besides war is war. The concept of an illegal war has always been a bit funny to me, what's going to happen, is the UN going to give out 500 fine like a moving violation. :lol

Well yes, Iraq is the main source of discontent when people talk about our relationship with the US in the Bush-Blair era. I use the phrase 'illegal war' as a catch all to sum up all the problems around us choosing to intervene and the dishonest grounds the war was was fought on. The faulty intelligence, the dodgy dossier, the attempts to link it to bin-laden, ignoring international co-operation through the UN, dr david kelly, and the lack of planning and consideration of the aftermath and how to bring the country back together post invasion which has left us in such a quagmire. Though i understand how ridiculous the phrase used is, i think it best sums up the horrible conduct of our government in that period; conduct that i believe damaged our worldwide credibility massively, as well as being upsetting to many people in this country.

9/11 happened before Iraq and Afghanistan, the world wasn't born on 9/11 (not to sound condescending, I just think a lot of the issues truly predate Iraq and Afghanistan.

This is certainly true, note how i said 'encouraged', not caused. 7/7 may have happened without the Iraq war, but i don't think it is unreasonable to point out that we put fuel on the fire of extremism through our dishonest intervention, and actively encouraged it with our actions.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

self interest then? fair enough, i don't really agree but i understand your reasoning.

Thanks, like I said, it's not something that most local voters would agree with. Think of the inverse though. Most people in Europe generally want Democrats in power in the US. I myself agree, though the idea of Divided Government isn't always a bad one for balancing reasons In the last US election did most people in Europe look deeper into Obama other than him being from the opposite party of George Bush and on the left end of the political spectrum.

Strangely enough for Foreign Policy, it's generally better for the US to have Center-Right parties in power.

 

[Stumpokapow]

In the end how bad has England suffered for Iraq and Afganistan? 426 Casualties.

That's still less then a third caused during the two day Third Anglo-Afghan War in 1919. Hell more people died of Cholera than in combat deaths in the Iraq and Afghanistan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Anglo-Afghan_War

yikes

 

[iapetus]

Think of the inverse though. Most people in Europe generally want Democrats in power in the US.

Speaking as someone who was interested in the US election, the comparison is hideously flawed, as most Europeans I know who were equally interested wanted Democrats in power because it was the best thing for America, not for their own individual countries.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Well yes, Iraq is the main source of discontent when people talk about our relationship with the US in the Bush-Blair era. I use the phrase 'illegal war' as a catch all to sum up all the problems around us choosing to intervene and the dishonest grounds the war was was fought on. The faulty intelligence, the dodgy dossier, the attempts to link it to bin-laden, ignoring international co-operation through the UN, dr david kelly, and the lack of planning and consideration of the aftermath and how to bring the country back together post invasion which has left us in such a quagmire. Though i understand how ridiculous the phrase used is, i think it best sums up the horrible conduct of our government in that period; conduct that i believe damaged our worldwide credibility massively, as well as being upsetting to many people in this country.

I just think the term piss poor planning might have more accurate. Honestly, there is a part of me that wonders if finding someway to reconnect with Hussein and using him as a bulwark against Iran might have been a better idea. The only problem was he truly was a horrible leader/human being. As bad as Iraq is now, at least it's beginning to start having democratic elections and a parliamentary system. It's not an easy road, but how many other governments in the Middle East are truly having free and open elections. I really think for all the crap Bush gets (and justly so) that is an actual achievement. In the end I also feel when Saddam keeled over eventual had the US invaded the same thing would have happened in terms of the sectarian violence.

I think the only reason the US didn't have such a horrible and violent (and still it wasn't easy) transition to democracy was the decades of colonial government.

This is certainly true, note how i said 'encouraged', not caused. 7/7 may have happened without the Iraq war, but i don't think it is unreasonable to point out that we put fuel on the fire of extremism through our dishonest intervention, and actively encouraged it with our actions.

Yeah, but I just think it's part of a thousand things and honestly extremists find anything to go off on about like South Park.

Speaking as someone who was interested in the US election, the comparison is hideously flawed, as most Europeans I know who were equally interested wanted Democrats in power because it was the best thing for America, not for their own individual countries.

For people with a background or real interest in politics (or US connections), I'd say yes, but for most people I think it's all about how it effects they're own country.

 

[Meadows]

Speaking as someone who was interested in the US election, the comparison is hideously flawed, as most Europeans I know who were equally interested wanted Democrats in power because it was the best thing for America, not for their own individual countries.

The man speaks the truth. Nobody in Britain wants to see another Katrina, even if it doesn't affect us directly.

 

[SmokyDave]

Speaking as someone who was interested in the US election, the comparison is hideously flawed, as most Europeans I know who were equally interested wanted Democrats in power because it was the best thing for America, not for their own individual countries.

Yup, that's me. I wanted Obama to win because I honestly believed that the change would be good for America. That we might benefit vicariously had occurred to me though.

 

[iapetus]

I think the only reason the US didn't have such a horrible and violent (and still it wasn't easy) transition to democracy was the decades of colonial government.

That and persuading the cretinous element among the revolutionaries to fuck off to France.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

That and persuading the cretinous element among the revolutionaries to fuck off to France.

Very true. It's one of the best things England could ever give the US. Hell, I think the more stable countries in the former British Empire are the ones that had some former of local participation in elections and governance. I'm sure that fails apart on closer inspection, but I feel its an important component.

 

[Dabookerman]

Speaking as someone who was interested in the US election, the comparison is hideously flawed, as most Europeans I know who were equally interested wanted Democrats in power because it was the best thing for America, not for their own individual countries.

Yup. George Bush sure made your country look pretty pathetic.
Seems Obama wants to take the country through a progressive route and there are a frightening number of people who want to prevent that.

 

[dankir]

He would turn the country into would big race track :lol

If I had to seriously choose, my vote would go to Charlie Brooker.

I like that the belief in a God isn't a prerequisite to become a leader of the UK. Unlike a certain country.

What else could you ask for? Hamster and James acting as 2nd in command.

Anybody else = BORING!

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Yup. George Bush sure made your country look pretty pathetic.
Seems Obama wants to take the country through a progressive route and there are a frightening number of people who want to prevent that.

I think that feeds into unrealistic expectations (gay marriage being one on the social end) . One of which was with Iraq and Afghanistan. I think a lot of people expected a Spanish type pullout, which was never never going to happen. I'm happy Obama isn't just pulling out and creating a situation where truly every victory and sacrifice before it for nothing.

I think it's ironic that the drone attack program (which I like and think works) has tremendously expanded under Obama along with the type of people targeted.

 

[Empty]

Interesting article re: Murdoch

http://www.newser.com/off-the-grid/post/448/will-murdoch-lose-britain.html

In turn, the Independent newspaper ran a front pager yesterday with the headline “Rupert Murdoch will not decide the outcome of the election. You will,” challenging the Murdoch coverage of the race.

Later in the afternoon, in a coming-apart-at-the-seams scenario, Rebekah Wade/Brooks and Murdoch’s son, James—who will both face the wrath of Murdoch senior if they don’t produce a winner—stormed over to the Independent, breached its security systems, barged into the offices of the Independent’s editor-in-chief and top executive, Simon Kelner, and commenced, in Brit-speak, a giant row. Their point was that newspaper publishers don’t slag off other newspaper publishers in polite Britain, but also the point was to remind Kelner that he wasn’t just slagging off another publisher, he was slagging off the Murdochs, damn it. Indeed, the high point of the screaming match was Wade/Brooks, in a fit of apoplexy and high drama, neck muscles straining, saying to Kelner: “And I invited you to Blenheim in the first place!” Blenheim being the Murdoch family retreat and the highest social destination for all Murdoch loyalists and ambitious Brits in the media.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Interesting article re: Murdoch

http://www.newser.com/off-the-grid/post/448/will-murdoch-lose-britain.html

Seriously I want a crazy Aussie vs British Fleet Street Barbed Wire Death Match after reading that.

I'd have to give Murdoch the edge due to his criminal and monkey sex Australian background. (anyone get the ref?)

 

[wave dial]

Manos: UK, continue to be our bitches, you are useful in our wars

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Manos: UK, continue to be our bitches, you are useful in our wars

When did I ever say anything else (though I don't limit England's usefulness to wars or the term bitches)? Like I said, it comes out of American self-interest, not a true support/rejection of Tory/Labour/Lib Dem politics.

 

[Parl]

When did I ever say anything else (though I don't limit England's usefulness to wars or the term bitches)? Like I said, it comes out of American self-interest, not a true support/rejection of Tory/Labour/Lib Dem politics.

Do you mean literally England by itself, or the United Kingdom as a whole?

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Do you mean literally England by itself, or the United Kingdom as a whole?

Ignoring the chance to troll on Scotland, Wales, and NI, no, I meant the United Kingdom.

 

[pulsemyne]

Please stop using the phrase England to mean the whole of the UK. There are loads of Welsh, scots and Northern irish who have died in Iraq and afghanistan.
Also belittleing the UK's contribution in Iraq is frankly disgusting. Our soliders died out there. They were shot and bombed just like american soliders were. Maybe not in the same numbers but its still one hell of a sacrifice.

 

[Parl]

Ignoring the chance to troll on Scotland, Wales, and NI, no, I meant the United Kingdom.

Never been to any of them, so I can't comment on what they're like.

Back on topic, who would prefer a hung parliament to either Labour or Cons having an outright majority? And if so, what would be your preferred coalition? Lab/Lib, Con/Lib, or even Con/Green/UKIP, with Nigel Farage as Prime Minister.

 

[D4Danger]

I see the front page of almost every newspaper today is trying to smear Clegg before this TV debate. pathetic.

Should be interesting tonight.