Nicktendo86
Member
With all this excitement over Corbyn we seem to have overlooked that Tom Watson, yes, Tom Watson, has been elected deputy leader. Jesus Christ.
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UK PoliGAF |OT2| - We Blue Ourselves
- Thread starter Jezbollah
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D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Considering he was one of a very few brave enough to properly take on Murdoch, all power to him.
Roberto Larcos
Member
Angela Smith (now former shadow minister for food and farming) has backbench aspirations too, it seems.
The knives are out for Corbyn. He spoke of wanting to bring the party together, but do they even want to give him an ear? Can't help but feel that it smacks of vindictiveness from these party members. They could just as easily tell him in private that they don't want to be considered for selection, but instead it seems almost like a well-organised caurosel of MPs saying 'no' to Corbyn, and twisting the knife while they do it.
Surely if they cared for the future of the party, they'd try to get their views across and serve it as best they can, rather than jump ship at the first opportunity? Looking out for their careers over their party, their country, and the people they attest to represent. Career politicians, ladies and gentlemen.
The knives are out for Corbyn. He spoke of wanting to bring the party together, but do they even want to give him an ear? Can't help but feel that it smacks of vindictiveness from these party members. They could just as easily tell him in private that they don't want to be considered for selection, but instead it seems almost like a well-organised caurosel of MPs saying 'no' to Corbyn, and twisting the knife while they do it.
Surely if they cared for the future of the party, they'd try to get their views across and serve it as best they can, rather than jump ship at the first opportunity? Looking out for their careers over their party, their country, and the people they attest to represent. Career politicians, ladies and gentlemen.
Jezbollah
Member
Or perhaps they've been tarred with the "Tory scum" brush by those in the party and have decided they've had enough?
Do you want the Blairites in or out of the party?
I've found a new interesting political channel that has been gaining a few views over the past year. It's called the ArtistTaxiDriver channel. He's managed to get a few MP's in his car as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ8h8HSlelo
It's entertaining.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ8h8HSlelo
It's entertaining.
Roberto Larcos
Member
Then stand up and fight for what you believe in?
I think Corbyn needs the Blairites - to soften his edges on foreign policy, and to ensure that he doesn't lose the entire middleground. But the Blairites need him too - they've lost the human element that set them apart from the Conservative party,
That and, you know, the fact they aren't tories?
Seriously, the delusion that Blairite = tory is just ridiculous and has to stop.
Sure start.
Gay equal rights.
Reform of the House of Lords.
Working Tax credits.
Apprenticeships.
Massive public sector investment.
By most reckoning, Blair in 97 was more left wing than Miliband in 2015, and yet Corbyn supporters have turned Blairite into another word for Tory which is simply, and in every respect, flatly not true.
Blair remains, by a long way, the most popular leader Labour have had in the last 40 years. He's also the only won to have won an election in 40 years. This utterly ridiculous and reality defying feat of pretending that from 1997 to 2010 there was a Tory government in charge wearing red ties is lunacy that's destroying any chance Labour has of getting any sanity back into government and into power.
Seriously, the delusion that Blairite = tory is just ridiculous and has to stop.
Sure start.
Gay equal rights.
Reform of the House of Lords.
Working Tax credits.
Apprenticeships.
Massive public sector investment.
By most reckoning, Blair in 97 was more left wing than Miliband in 2015, and yet Corbyn supporters have turned Blairite into another word for Tory which is simply, and in every respect, flatly not true.
Blair remains, by a long way, the most popular leader Labour have had in the last 40 years. He's also the only won to have won an election in 40 years. This utterly ridiculous and reality defying feat of pretending that from 1997 to 2010 there was a Tory government in charge wearing red ties is lunacy that's destroying any chance Labour has of getting any sanity back into government and into power.
The reason that the Blairites get branded as Tories is because they didn't even try to shift the consensus away from the Thatcherite policies of the 80s. They just kind of did a Labour version of it.
Gay equal rights is neither here nor there; it was a Tory lord who pushed the decriminalisation of homosexuality in the first place.
Gay equal rights is neither here nor there; it was a Tory lord who pushed the decriminalisation of homosexuality in the first place.
Roberto Larcos
Member
And under a Tory government that we got gay marriage.
I think there are 3 ways that Corbyn can win an election:
1) Without Labour pulling them towards the centre, the Conservatives lurch to the right under Boris / Osborne
2) Lib Dems fill the centre chasm enough to take votes from the Conservatives
3) Total social / economic collapse. Rioting in the streets after more austerity and cuts. A Syriza situation.
Please don't tell me as a gay man which party has done more for gay rights. Cameron has done a great job with gay marriage, but that's only thanks to the big steps Labour took in 97. Remember that even then the conservative party were still supporting section 28, and it was Labour who put gay rights into their manfiesto.
Oblong Schlong
Member
Ha, thanks to Cameron and Labour/Lib-Dem MPs. Was it not the case that if the vote was conducted purely amongst Tory MPs that it would have failed?
Still, the Tories are gay-friendly right? Section 28 is all forgotten now, yeah?
Roberto Larcos
Member
No, I'm just saying the gaps closed considerably, to the point that Blairites and Tories were comparable.
And don't tell me, as a gay man, how I should view gay rights.
The Labour party has championed it, yes, but it's not an exclusively Labour achievement. As Lord Arran put it at the time, there aren't many badgers in the House of Lords.
While we're all declaring our interests (in other men); I wonder if attitudes towards the Tories when it comes to gay rights are heavily influenced by age?
I know that as a gay man who's entire school-age life was covered by the era of section 28 that I can never, ever, ever, forgive the Tories or even begin to consider their current stance on gay rights. They are so far in net-negative territory that they could start offering gay-only bribes and I wouldn't give them a second glance.
I know that as a gay man who's entire school-age life was covered by the era of section 28 that I can never, ever, ever, forgive the Tories or even begin to consider their current stance on gay rights. They are so far in net-negative territory that they could start offering gay-only bribes and I wouldn't give them a second glance.
Jezbollah
Member
I dont disagree with you at all - there seems to those who want a complete purge of those Labour members who are more centre mid than them - theres a lot of vitriol going on to kick them out, and then you have those who believe in the concept of unity and as such believe those leaving the shadow cabinet and front benches are sticking it into Corbyn.
I just think the sweet middle ground that would be most effective in unifying the party is something not everyone is going to be happy with. Labour really needs to establish a solid identity with the majority of it's members. It wont be universally popular.. "cant please all the people all the time..."
Something really tells me those who immediately resigned know of what is to come in the next few weeks and decided to get out as soon as they could.
JesseEwiak
Member
Thought you guys might like an article from a Corbyn voter who isn't all sunshine and puppies about it -
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com...-leader-of-the-labour-party-with-reservations
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com...-leader-of-the-labour-party-with-reservations
Huw_Dawson
Member
Tories have their anti-Corbyn rhetoric out already. Expect their big word to be 'security' for the next few years.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
I can't see that really sticking. There is no connection between the two.
People are being way too dramatic over Corbyn. He's not and has never been a long term option. The majority of his support arises from the facts he appears like a human being, is a different to the political class (of which the Blairites are the epitome) and has some vaguely popular ideas.
He is definitely not a left wing devil and Labour didn't campaign on a left wing agenda in the last election. They lost becaus ethey failed to challenge Tory myths on the economy which had created the idea that Labour could not be trusted to run a country (even if their ideas were well liked). Milliband also failed to demonstrate that he could be trusted to run a country.
By virtue of his popularity as a person, Corbyn's probably more likely to resolve that issue as he seems like a serious, real person.
CyclopsRock
Member
Osborne is probably the least ideologically minded member of the Tory Cabinet, *and* he's their chief strategist and now, in Majority land, also the favourite to follow Cameron as PM - there's no way he's silly enough to move to the right. What's the point? You can already see exactly where he's gonna go by looking at his latest budget - leftwards. There have already been a few areas where the Tories have firmly parked their tanks of Labour's lawn - living wage. "Northern Powerhouse" stuff etc. No way is GO moving rightwards. He's gonna wanna capitalise on every single left-leaning voter who remembers the 70's little doubts.
Nicktendo86
Member
The whole point of the next 5 years for the Tories is to occupy the centre ground, force labour as far leftwards as possible and then pick them off. The whole security narrative will hit home, it was massively effective with the SNP threat. Notice they don't mention corbyn in their new email campaign, they mention labour.
Edit: oh, and corbyn has already ducked a long booked Sunday politics interview for tomorrow. He knows he cannot stand up to scrutiny.
Edit: oh, and corbyn has already ducked a long booked Sunday politics interview for tomorrow. He knows he cannot stand up to scrutiny.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Alternatively, he's going to be busy putting together a shadow cabinet.
Roberto Larcos
Member
Not a complete lock that he'll get the job though. A lot can happen in 5 years - if the economy slows down and Osborne starts getting the blame, then Boris may look like a 'safer' bet. Boris also has immense popular support (somehow), and his ideologies align with the back-benchers. I think Boris would definitely take the party to the right of where they sit now.
CyclopsRock
Member
Boris was indeed favourite for a pretty long time, but I think that was when he was seen as something of a nuclear button - the candidate they'd turn to if Lab had won a minority (as many believed they would) because at that point, their next opportunity for a Tory majority would have been 2020 - a solid 28 years after Major last attained one for them. In this world where no matter what happens they feel like they couldn't win a majority Boris and his brand of charismatic pomp, oratory "flair" and media comfort might well be seen as their only route to a majority, though it's nuclear in the sense that should he have lost in 2020 to a Labour minority, where do they go from there?
But back in the real world, Cam managed to grab a majority from the clutches of defeat, we have a Labour party civil war starting, a Lib Dem party that might as well not exist and an economy that's doing well. Now I concede that if the economy starts weakening GO might lose his place in line but I think it would have to go disastrously for then to then to BoJo at this stage.
However the real reason I brought GO up is because, quite aside from being a chancellor, he's also their chief strategist. He's their Douglas Alexander except, like, actually quite good.
The interesting (and worrying) thing about the conservative succession battle is whether Johnson or May will feel the need to push the big red button and campaign to leave Europe in the referendum. I'm convinced one of them will do it to delineate themself from the rest of the pack and against Osborne.
Dr Zhivago
Member
Osborne has all the charisma of a parking meter, at least Cameron can do a reasonable impression of a human being.
Roberto Larcos
Member
Referendum's too early for that.
Cameron's a quitting after the referendum, that's open knowledge. Everything about it is going to be viewed through the lense of the leadership battle to follow.
Huw_Dawson
Member
I'd object to that - Lib Dems beating Tories out of their seats in 2020 is the country's best shot for removing the Tories from majority. Which is, in turn, probably the only thing that will salvage the Union.
The EU fallout won't come after the referendum. It will come when they fail to get any meaningful treaty change (I suspect that is why Cameron is bailing afterwards). It would be smart for one of the candidates to position themselves with that in mind.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I find it amazing that the two of them will have basically known they were both winning their respective elections weeks ago and they're already conducting stuff like this in public.
It was more nuanced than that, even though there are clear disagreements.
Watson pointed out that he and Corbyn share concerns about NATO's Eastward expansionism, and that this was the move that was driving conflict.
Watson also signalled that he was in favour of multilateral disarmament.
He did point out that the current arrangement had led to 'peace' for the last 50 years, and that he was in favour of it broadly remaining in place, but also that Labour was moving towards a more democratic policy process. He plans to spearhead that process, so if it results in a unilateral, anti-NATO policy platform, that's what happens.
An interesting line from Gove today.
It's good to know that he doesn't think public protest belongs in a proper civilised democracy. Guess us serfs should just sit back and take it.
Michael Gove said:
It's good to know that he doesn't think public protest belongs in a proper civilised democracy. Guess us serfs should just sit back and take it.
Jezbollah
Member
I think he was advocating peaceful public protest and nothing violent tbh.
Wrestlemania
Banned
You'll have to point me towards some stories about "violent" UK Uncut protests.
Jezbollah
Member
I wasn't talking about UK Uncut protests specifically. Had he talked about "organisations such as" so he's not limiting to just UK Uncut too.
Wrestlemania
Banned
Come off it. He said "as we saw even in the last parliament with organisations like UK Uncut that there are some people who want to bring protest on to the street". Nothing about "violent" or "peaceful" protest. Just protest.
Where's that photo of the Tory's front bench howling like hyenas while Osborne announced his latest assault on the poor? Civilised my arse.
I felt it was an extreme application of Lipset's view that education leads to democracy in developing countries, that educated people would likely more to resolve their difference through voting and negotiation rather than violence. This is under the assumption that British protest leads to violence and confusion under uneducated and non symmetric debate. I find this to be incorrect under bounded information.
EDIT: Bytheway, I recommend watching Victoria's BBC radical series with 10 minute interviews with radical/racist individuals. It's interesting to watch interviews with content that could cause aggressive debate.
EDIT: Bytheway, I recommend watching Victoria's BBC radical series with 10 minute interviews with radical/racist individuals. It's interesting to watch interviews with content that could cause aggressive debate.
Jezbollah
Member
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/643112641796419584
Corbyn sacks Shadow Northern Ireland Secretary Ivan Lewis
Corbyn sacks Shadow Northern Ireland Secretary Ivan Lewis
He had a go at Corbyn for some of his perceived anti Jewish views during the campaign didn't he?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-jeremy-corbyn-antisemitism-record-ivan-lewis
Still given what's going on in NI it seems strange to be putting in a novice.
It's Reyn Time!
Member
Oh you can have protests, just as long as it's in a designated protest zone at a dedicated protest time and you've filled in the appropriate forms to apply for your right to protest and the government has decided to authorise both the protest itself and your participation in the protest and you've received your certificate showing your right to protest and presented yourself to the police for access to the designated protest area.
You'll totally still be able to protest!
Jezbollah
Member
lol, I'm surprised he didnt quit yesterday then!
Nicktendo86
Member
It was booked weeks ago but still found the time to go to an event in Islington today. Let's be honest,he has no intention of talking to the media.
Chuka gone now as well. This all inclusive tent is looking less and less inclusive.
killer_clank
Member
this makes me very uncomfortable. my faith in the EU has been shaken somewhat over the past year or so, but I still can't forsee myself voting any other way than stay in. to have the 2 main party leaders possibly arguing for withdrawal or half heartedly yes is pretty depressing for me.
Yikes.
Nicktendo86
Member
Chris ship twitter said:
As I said earlier, talk of inclusive cabinet is bolocks.
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