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UK PoliGAF thread of tell me about the rabbits again, Dave.

Whelp, looks like it just happened. What now, Dave?


Not binding, so it changes nothing in terms of the EU budget, but this could be a very interesting three years for the Tories if what Zomg said above comes to pass.

Even if it were binding, it would have had nothing to do with the terms of the EU budget, merely the UK's stance on it, so Dave and co would have been forced to argue for a certain outcome (namely a reduction in it). As it stands, it's a non-binding suggestion as to the debating stance. It never really meant much, but politically it's a big defeat for the government but a somewhat bizarre about-face for Labour.
 

kitch9

Banned
Even if it were binding, it would have had nothing to do with the terms of the EU budget, merely the UK's stance on it, so Dave and co would have been forced to argue for a certain outcome (namely a reduction in it). As it stands, it's a non-binding suggestion as to the debating stance. It never really meant much, but politically it's a big defeat for the government but a somewhat bizarre about-face for Labour.

After a decade of Labour sticking their heads up EU's ass and eating whatever crap that came their way, only NOW in opposition do they decide we shouldn't give them what they want EVERY time they ask.

Its one of Labours policies that always drove me nuts....
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Seems to me that this improves the Government's negotiating position. Which ain't a bad thing at all. As in, now everyone knows there's a vote for a reduction it's more likely we'll get away with a freeze. Of course, the opposition will then claim that as a government loss, but actually it'll be a win.
 
Seems to me that this improves the Government's negotiating position. Which ain't a bad thing at all. As in, now everyone knows there's a vote for a reduction it's more likely we'll get away with a freeze. Of course, the opposition will then claim that as a government loss, but actually it'll be a win.

I don't think the other EU countries will give a shit. I think the further away from a compromise we are, the less likely they'll be to go with it. If no long-term budget gets agreed they just go on a year-by-year basis that isn't done by unanimous agreement, just a majority, so we have no veto over it. I think it's very unlikely the budget will go down or even freeze, because of this.
 

kitch9

Banned
Seems to me that this improves the Government's negotiating position. Which ain't a bad thing at all. As in, now everyone knows there's a vote for a reduction it's more likely we'll get away with a freeze. Of course, the opposition will then claim that as a government loss, but actually it'll be a win.

Especially after years of getting bent over the EU's table.

Whilst I see the benefits of being in the EU it does worry me that its slowly becoming an unelected dictatorship.
 

Arksy

Member
I don't think the other EU countries will give a shit. I think the further away from a compromise we are, the less likely they'll be to go with it. If no long-term budget gets agreed they just go on a year-by-year basis that isn't done by unanimous agreement, just a majority, so we have no veto over it. I think it's very unlikely the budget will go down or even freeze, because of this.

But they'll have a ceiling of the 6 year budget. It is important.
 
The problem with Dave is that he just isn't willing to be an obstinate bastard. He needs to go in with the attitude "this is how much Britain will pay, work around that figure" and if they try and QMV the shit on an annual basis just refuse to play ball at all and withhold funds to the EU until such time a unanimous budget is passed. The fact is the EU want us to pay €120bn of a €900bn budget over 7 years, the EU would grind to a halt without our regular payments into the system so if Dave grew a fucking spine he could have them over a barrel.

That's not the only way to go about things, I know that Germany feel much the same way we do about the EU, as the other major contributor their government wants to freeze spending or cut it as well. Dave needs to get Merkel into a room and do a deal for a cash freeze in the EU budget. If Britain and Germany present a deal, the rest will fall into line, but Dave doesn't think like that, he wants to be liked too much and such a move with Germany would inevitably alienate many other nations within the EU that stand to lose from an EU budget cut.

If the Lib Dems don't like it, let them test their polling position with the nation by bringing down the coalition and triggering a GE. I wonder if ICM (at 14%) or YouGov (at 9%) are right. It would be a blood bath, an election triggered by the Lib Dems wanting to give more money and sovereignty to the EU.
 
But they'll have a ceiling of the 6 year budget. It is important.

Ah really? I didn't know that. Interesting!

This reminds me a bit of the episode of the West Wing where the Qumari ambassador suggests to Leo that he'll blackmail him over the assassination of Al-Shareef, to which Leo replies:

"You think the President's afraid that if he admitted complicity in Shareef's death,
he would lose votes in this country? To sweep all fifty states, the President would
only need to do two things-- blow the Sultan's brains out in Times Square, then walk
across the street to Nathan's and buy a hot dog."

Dave clearly doesn't want to leave the EU, but right now I think if he did, he'd win a majority at the next election without a doubt. The EU is one of those issues, like capital punishment, where - rightly or wrongly - the public have always been at odds with the decisions of the government. It's been that way for about 35 years. This could make 2015 a lot more interesting.]

Edit: I know this isn't about leaving the EU, but the idea of leaving the EU has changed from being a euro-sceptic wet dream on the naughty step of CCHQ to a political reality that's actively being discussed, and this rebellion is only going to fuel that debate. For the first time in my memory, this is being openly discussed, and the more it is so, the more people will care about it, imo.
 

Arksy

Member
Ah really? I didn't know that. Interesting!

This reminds me a bit of the episode of the West Wing where the Qumari ambassador suggests to Leo that he'll blackmail him over the assassination of Al-Shareef, to which Leo replies:

"You think the President's afraid that if he admitted complicity in Shareef's death,
he would lose votes in this country? To sweep all fifty states, the President would
only need to do two things-- blow the Sultan's brains out in Times Square, then walk
across the street to Nathan's and buy a hot dog."

Dave clearly doesn't want to leave the EU, but right now I think if he did, he'd win a majority at the next election without a doubt. The EU is one of those issues, like capital punishment, where - rightly or wrongly - the public have always been at odds with the decisions of the government. It's been that way for about 35 years. This could make 2015 a lot more interesting.

It really doesn't make a lot of sense. You're probably right, he would win an outright majority. The thing that gets me however, is that his current position seems like it would have the affect of leaking so many votes to UKIP that would ensure a labour victory. Surely his will for political survival will win out over whatever he personally feels.
 
It really doesn't make a lot of sense. You're probably right, he would win an outright majority. The thing that gets me however, is that his current position seems like it would have the affect of leaking so many votes to UKIP that would ensure a labour victory. Surely his will for political survival will win out over whatever he personally feels.

He's in a dire position. Even if he weren't losing votes to UKIP, Labour has the monopoly on opposition. This term was never going to be easy, but I really do predict a Major happening - an economic recovery but without any credit for it. I think you're probably right, his political expediency will win out - at the very least I think he'll make an in-out referendum a lynchpin of their 2015 manifesto, but by that point I'm afraid events might have somewhat overtaken him, and it'll seem too little too late.
 

Arksy

Member
He's in a dire position. Even if he weren't losing votes to UKIP, Labour has the monopoly on opposition. This term was never going to be easy, but I really do predict a Major happening - an economic recovery but without any credit for it. I think you're probably right, his political expediency will win out - at the very least I think he'll make an in-out referendum a lynchpin of their 2015 manifesto, but by that point I'm afraid events might have somewhat overtaken him, and it'll seem too little too late.

All the while you have Labour, who have just voted along a eurosceptic line for the first time in history and are being showered with praise on twitter. I wonder if the praise will make the Labour leadership realise what a popular position this really is and reflect that position more closely. Cameron would look like a laughing stock if a vote like this occured again.

Edit: A GE would be devestating for all parties but Labour. The Lib Dems would face electoral annihilation. The tories would lose a bunch of seats because of a leak to UKIP and Labour would likely collect the Lib Dem seats and be able to form a government.
 

War Peaceman

You're a big guy.
All the while you have Labour, who have just voted along a eurosceptic line for the first time in history and are being showered with praise on twitter. I wonder if the praise will make the Labour leadership realise what a popular position this really is and reflect that position more closely. Cameron would look like a laughing stock if a vote like this occured again.

'First time in History'? Learn your history!

But it has been clear for a while that Labour would try to shift away from New Labour's pro-EU viewpoint, particularly in regards to immigration.
 

Arksy

Member
'First time in History'? Learn your history!

But it has been clear for a while that Labour would try to shift away from New Labour's pro-EU viewpoint, particularly in regards to immigration.

My apologies! I was wrong.

Can you guys leave the EU already and foster stronger ties to the Commonwealth please? Speaking as an Australian we could use some closer UK ties. The EU really puts a hamper on Commonwealth relations and is really screwing around with our trade links.
 
Leaving the EU would be a massive mistake, I'm with Nick on this one. We can't just jump in and out of the EU, if we decide to leave, we'll be out on our arses, isolated from our biggest export market and probably wanting back in.

I also don't think that the majority of voters are really eurosceptic, I think there's a mood of general opposition that has been drummed up by UKIP, BNP, Tories, etc. and that's mostly been based on xenophobia and lies, when you explain to most people all the good the EU does, they'll likely support it. in my experience.

My apologies! I was wrong.

Can you guys leave the EU already and foster stronger ties to the Commonwealth please? Speaking as an Australian we could use some closer UK ties. The EU really puts a hamper on Commonwealth relations and is really screwing around with our trade links.

no, fuck off. We put the dirty prisoners there for a reason.
 

Arksy

Member
I also don't think that the majority of voters are really eurosceptic, I think there's a mood of general opposition that has been drummed up by UKIP, BNP, Tories, etc. and that's mostly been based on xenophobia and lies, when you explain to most people all the good the EU does, they'll likely support it. in my experience.

Ok, then you have nothing to fear from a referendum, right?

no, fuck off. We put the dirty prisoners there for a reason.

lol, touche.
 
Ok, then you have nothing to fear from a referendum, right?



lol, touche.

Oh god, a referendum would be the worst. It would be the gutter politics of the AV referendumx100000000. Where the argument on one side would essentially boil down to "we hate foreigners, get them out of our country"
 

Arksy

Member
Oh god, a referendum would be the worst. It would be the gutter politics of the AV referendumx100000000. Where the argument on one side would essentially boil down to "we hate foreigners, get them out of our country"

But that contradicts what you just said about spelling out the argument and people agreeing with you.
 

operon

Member
But that contradicts what you just said about spelling out the argument and people agreeing with you.

The people have been bombarded with Eurosceptic crap form the like of the sun and the daily mail, with continuous governments blaming Europe for anything they don't want to take responsibility for. There is too much misinformation out there
 
But that contradicts what you just said about spelling out the argument and people agreeing with you.

No, It would be the same as the AV campaign, where "No to AV" basically just lied, "Yes to AV" was ineffectual, had no money and got destroyed. Now we have a shit electoral system for another generation.

I'm basically arguing that all the thicko's would vote against the EU, and we shouldn't give them the vote anyway because they're so thick.
 

Arksy

Member
The people have been bombarded with Eurosceptic crap form the like of the sun and the daily mail, with continuous governments blaming Europe for anything they don't want to take responsibility for. There is too much misinformation out there

Eh, on the flipside it's likely the YES side will have a lot more money to play around with and will be able to plaster SAY YES FOR JOBS signs all over your countryside.

No, It would be the same as the AV campaign, where "No to AV" basically just lied, "Yes to AV" was ineffectual, had no money and got destroyed. Now we have a shit electoral system for another generation.

I'm basically arguing that all the thicko's would vote against the EU, and we shouldn't give them the vote anyway because they're so thick.

Ok so your argument is against democracy. Robbing people of their right to self-governance is a pretty drastic and radical thing to do. I doubt it would go down very well.
 
Eh, on the flipside it's likely the YES side will have a lot more money to play around with and will be able to plaster SAY YES FOR JOBS signs all over your countryside.

I'm not so sure, Most referendum campaigns are backed by political parties, the Lib Dems have no money at all to contribute to a yes campaign, The tories have all the money for No, and if labour joins no, or even stays independent (like it did with AV) then it will be a bloodbath.
 
Leaving the EU would be a massive mistake, I'm with Nick on this one. We can't just jump in and out of the EU, if we decide to leave, we'll be out on our arses, isolated from our biggest export market and probably wanting back in.

I also don't think that the majority of voters are really eurosceptic, I think there's a mood of general opposition that has been drummed up by UKIP, BNP, Tories, etc. and that's mostly been based on xenophobia and lies, when you explain to most people all the good the EU does, they'll likely support it. in my experience.

I think it's also a matter of principle, though. The EU has shown itself, in the last few years, the lack either the political vision or the institutions to solve the problems they have. Every single country is seeking to reduce their budgets - and you have countries like Greece where this is actively being forced upon them by some Eurozone countries and the ECB - and yet the EU think that it'd be best to divert more of the funds towards them. That is to say, that every cut to a benefit or a government programme needs to be larger than it otherwise would because the EU wants more of its member states money. I think this shows not only a bizarre sense of entitlement from a group that's proven itself incapable, it also shows the horrible disconnect between the EU parliament and the people they're meant to represent. The further away from the people a democratic institution gets, the more likely this disconnect is to occur, IMO, and it's exactly what's happening. This is especially true when, in the last long-term budget, 47% of the money went to CAP...

Now the reality of the situation might be that, thanks to the free trade agreements, the EU member nations have become our largest markets - but has there ever been a time that they weren't? They are, afterall, right next to us. We have this year though, for the first time in a long time, got more exports going to outside of the EU than inside it. The EU still has a plurality, but not a majority. So I think the question goes beyond mere short-term political expediency, and becomes one about whether or not we even want to lend our name to an institution that's proven itself dysfunctional, and that routinely does things that the UK electorate don't want (or, rather, the British MEP's are rarely on the winning side of any legislation passed in the European parliament).
 

Arksy

Member
I think it's also a matter of principle, though. The EU has shown itself, in the last few years, the lack either the political vision or the institutions to solve the problems they have. Every single country is seeking to reduce their budgets - and you have countries like Greece where this is actively being forced upon them by some Eurozone countries and the ECB - and yet the EU think that it'd be best to divert more of the funds towards them. That is to say, that every cut to a benefit or a government programme needs to be larger than it otherwise would because the EU wants more of its member states money. I think this shows not only a bizarre sense of entitlement from a group that's proven itself incapable, it also shows the horrible disconnect between the EU parliament and the people they're meant to represent. The further away from the people a democratic institution gets, the more likely this disconnect is to occur, IMO, and it's exactly what's happening.

Now the reality of the situation might be that, thanks to the free trade agreements, the EU member nations have become our largest markets - but has there ever been a time that they weren't? They are, afterall, right next to us. We have this year though, for the first time in a long time, got more exports going to outside of the EU than inside it. The EU still has a plurality, but not a majority. So I think the question goes beyond mere short-term political expediency, and becomes one about whether or not we even want to lend our name to an institution that's proven itself dysfunctional, and that routinely does things that the UK electorate don't want (or, rather, the British MEP's are rarely on the winning side of any legislation passed in the European parliament).

Principle? Like standing up for what defines your national character? Such as representitive democracy with the rule of law. The fact that the EU is such an undemocratic institution to me seems like the most bizzare conception of a superstate I've ever seen.
 
Nick Clegg launches attack on Tories who want to 'unravel' Europe

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...ack-on-Tories-who-want-to-unravel-Europe.html

Who voted this idiot into power?
I did, sorry guys.
The United Kingdom is a sovereign nation, we can take back power whenever we want. We're not bound to the EU. What a numpty.

I agree with him here:

He also claimed "a grand, unilateral repatriation of powers might sound appealing but in reality, it is a false promise, wrapped in a Union Jack".

I am all for getting a better deal within the framework of the EU, and I'd be for leaving it if it would be better for us, but it wouldn't be. There are benefits to the Union and it is probably in our interests to see it do well.

We still have the final say on most matters, even the whinging about 'human rights' and European courts is a nonsense as we seem to obey it when we should do and want to (McKinnon) and disobey it when we should do and want to (Hamza).

This site is pretty good if you want to read some positive outcomes of our EU membership, you can pop your postcode in and see some case studies about what they do for us on a local level, there's a separate page on EU myths.

http://www.the-eu-and-me.org.uk

and of course, here:

http://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/index_en.htm
http://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/press/events/index_en.htm


This blog EXISTS to counter all the bullshit in the likes of the Mail and the Sun:
http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/category/euromyths/

If you read some of the stories they have to debunk you see how crass the anti-EU agenda really can be.
 

Arksy

Member
Murdoch won't need to spend money on any advertising when he can use the sun, sky news etc

That's a fair criticism, but there are other eurosceptic tabloids in the UK, such as the daily express, the telegraph and a few others. How would you account for them?
 

Wes

venison crêpe
"James Murdoch reappointed as a director of BSkyB with 95% of shareholder support."

It's been a funny old week. Bemusing anyway.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
I'm fine with staying in Europe, but the European political system needs to try and be more in touch with reality. Pushing for a raise in budgets in the current economic situation just shows how out of touch they are.
 

operon

Member
That's a fair criticism, but there are other eurosceptic tabloids in the UK, such as the daily express, the telegraph and a few others. How would you account for them?

Because since the UK joined the EU back in they day there seems to have been a decision to try to back track away from Europe. Instead of the UK being at the centre of Europe holding as much sway as Germany and France, they want to put themselves at a distance from Europe. For some people the sun hasn't set on the empire.
 

operon

Member
I'm fine with staying in Europe, but the European political system needs to try and be more in touch with reality. Pushing for a raise in budgets in the current economic situation just shows how out of touch they are.

I can agree with that
 

Arksy

Member
I'm fine with staying in Europe, but the European political system needs to try and be more in touch with reality. Pushing for a raise in budgets in the current economic situation just shows how out of touch they are.

One sure fire way to keep these guys in check is to hold them accountable for the decisions they make. The undemocratic nature of the EU is it's greatest weakness and has resulted in such decisions over its lifespan. If the EC had to answer to the electorate then it would be a very different beast.
 

Walshicus

Member
One sure fire way to keep these guys in check is to hold them accountable for the decisions they make. The undemocratic nature of the EU is it's greatest weakness and has resulted in such decisions over its lifespan. If the EC had to answer to the electorate then it would be a very different beast.

The EU is not undemocratic. It's just not as democratic as many of us want. And the blame for that lack of democratic accountability lies 100% with eurosceptics.

We who are generally pro-EU tend to be in favour of the Commission being directly elected. I'm not sure myself whether the Commission should be decided via the EU Parliament (as we do in the UK) or whether there should be a separation of Executive and Legislative...

But yes, it's the eurosceptics who block progress to bring greater accountability to the EU and then bitch and whine about the lack of democracy therein.
 

Arksy

Member
The EU is not undemocratic. It's just not as democratic as many of us want. And the blame for that lack of democratic accountability lies 100% with eurosceptics.

We who are generally pro-EU tend to be in favour of the Commission being directly elected. I'm not sure myself whether the Commission should be decided via the EU Parliament (as we do in the UK) or whether there should be a separation of Executive and Legislative...

But yes, it's the eurosceptics who block progress to bring greater accountability to the EU and then bitch and whine about the lack of democracy therein.

Sorry could you explain how eurosceptics have blocked the democratic unaccountability of the EU?

Directly electing commissioners would be one way of erasing the democratic deficit. If the Commission is decided by Parliament, then responsible government should be a factor.

(Recall that responsible government is the doctrine that exists in the commonwealth countries such as the UK, Canada and Australia where the executive government is formed from the sitting members of parliament and are directly accountable as they still answer directly to the electorate).
 

Walshicus

Member
Sorry could you explain how eurosceptics have blocked the democratic unaccountability of the EU?
Again, first of all the EU *is* accountable, it's just not accountable enough. Each of us could write to our MEPs demanding they vote a certain way or dismiss the existing commission. If they fail to do so we can vote for different MEPs next election. This is the same as it stands in the UK's parliaments. It'd be better if the Commission was comprised on MEPs as a rule.

Historically the EU project has been torn between two directions. First the "sceptic" Intergovernmentalists who want member states to wield authority through the existing Commission system and the Council of Ministers, and to keep democracy tied to the 'national' (or more accurately multi-national in cases like the UK) level. Second the Federalists and Confederalists who want the EU institutions to have more authority and democratic legitimacy.

"Sceptic" member state governments generally opposed expansion of EU parliamentary powers in order to keep power in the Council of Ministers and the Commission. The gradual expansion of power to the EU Parliament away from CoM and EUC has been the work of pro-integrationists - the biggest victory being the dismissal of the Santer Commission in '99.


Directly electing commissioners would be one way of erasing the democratic deficit. If the Commission is decided by Parliament, then responsible government should be a factor.
Definitely. I think I personally prefer the UK system of parliament selecting ministers/commissioners to directly elected Commissioners, only because there would need to be so many ballots.
 
Democracy is about far more than elections and voting. It means power from the people,the idea that power that is wielded is done so by dint of having poplar support. The EU is an enormous area both geographically and culturally. You could have a perfectly Democratic system with instant accountability, and still have entire nations never get a result that their people want. This happens in all representative democracies, but the larger the area and the larger the cultural descrepancy, the more it happens. It isn't good enough to say 'we have elections,' IMO.
 

Walshicus

Member
Democracy is about far more than elections and voting. It means power from the people,the idea that power that is wielded is done so by dint of having poplar support. The EU is an enormous area both geographically and culturally. You could have a perfectly Democratic system with instant accountability, and still have entire nations never get a result that their people want. This happens in all representative democracies, but the larger the area and the larger the cultural descrepancy, the more it happens. It isn't good enough to say 'we have elections,' IMO.

Which is why you have things like the Subsidiarity Principle. Plus the EU only really has true kompetenz to exercise sovereignty on behalf of the states in a narrow range of (mostly) technocratic policy areas.

You're right though - self determination should be a fundamental principle applied to all nations, and groupings at levels above that should be voluntary. It's why I'm in favour of breaking up the UK (or at least converting it from an entity exercising sovereignty into a voluntary grouping); it's why I've always been an EU Confederalist rather than a Federalist.
 
Which is why you have things like the Subsidiarity Principle. Plus the EU only really has true kompetenz to exercise sovereignty on behalf of the states in a narrow range of (mostly) technocratic policy areas.

You're right though - self determination should be a fundamental principle applied to all nations, and groupings at levels above that should be voluntary. It's why I'm in favour of breaking up the UK (or at least converting it from an entity exercising sovereignty into a voluntary grouping); it's why I've always been an EU Confederalist rather than a Federalist.

I agree entirely, actually. I'd have no problem in the UK federalising either, and I think the EU should only legislate on issues that wouldn't really work on a national (or however far down you want to delegate) level.

In other news, I love Fraser Nelson so much. I always have, and was very glad when he became editor of the Spectator - plus his voice. The only time I watch Question Time these days is when he's on, not only because he is understatedly sensible, but because of his sexy, sexy voice.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...nd-shows-how-to-live-with-climate-change.html
 

Yen

Member
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/nov/04/david-cameron-texts-rebekah-brooks
David Cameron is facing huge embarrassment after details of intimate texts he exchanged with the former News International chief Rebekah Brooks emerged on Saturday.

The existence of the messages has been at the centre of a row between Labour MP Chris Bryant and Cameron for several weeks and the contents will be a thorn in the prime minister's side. In one message, Cameron thanks Brooks for letting him ride one of her family's horses, saying it was "fast, unpredictable and hard to control but fun", it is claimed.

In another, it is reported that Brooks, who is standing trial next year on charges of phone hacking and conspiracy to pervert the course of justice, tells the Tory leader that she felt so emotional listening to his conference speech she "cried twice", adding: "Will love 'working together'."

The messages are part of a cache of texts and emails between Downing Street and Brooks handed over to Lord Justice Leveson's inquiry into media ethics by Downing Street and Brooks. In one, Cameron writes: "The horse CB [Charlie Brooks] put me on. Fast, unpredictable and hard to control but fun." He signed off "DC".
 

kitch9

Banned
My apologies! I was wrong.

Can you guys leave the EU already and foster stronger ties to the Commonwealth please? Speaking as an Australian we could use some closer UK ties. The EU really puts a hamper on Commonwealth relations and is really screwing around with our trade links.

Being a lib dem involves being the pussy whipped best friend of anyone who pretends to like you.
 

Ether_Snake

安安安安安安安安安安安安安安安
It's difficult enough to have elected officials on the municipal level not be corrupted and actually have them listen to the people, it's difficult to do the same on the provincial level, or the national level, adding another pan-European layer is just ridiculous.

More public-funds being misused, more corruption, less democracy, less power for people to be part of the decision making process. That's the real EU. Unless you live in a land of delusions. It becomes an increasingly caste-based system over the long run. Look how people in Iceland have been able to take control of the decision-making process. That's democracy. The EU = giving up citizen power hoping infallible men of righteousness and intelligence will lead everyone else to the holy land. A big scam.
 

Walshicus

Member
It's difficult enough to have elected officials on the municipal level not be corrupted and actually have them listen to the people, it's difficult to do the same on the provincial level, or the national level, adding another pan-European layer is just ridiculous.

More public-funds being misused, more corruption, less democracy, less power for people to be part of the decision making process. That's the real EU. Unless you live in a land of delusions. It becomes an increasingly caste-based system over the long run. Look how people in Iceland have been able to take control of the decision-making process. That's democracy. The EU = giving up citizen power hoping infallible men of righteousness and intelligence will lead everyone else to the holy land. A big scam.

I can see where you're coming from, but I think the real problem is the degree to which power is consolidated. It's why I'm generally *for* the EU; it acts to spread out power in certain policy areas at another tier of government.

I can't think of many policy areas where the EU has regulated or legislated against my favour, as a citizen. The Westminster government is nowhere near as pro-consumer, pro-citizen as the EU, so it seems a bit odd to be as angry with it as you are while not being infinitely more angry with what we have at home.


That's why the EU debate makes me chuckle so much; it's a distraction. It's there to make us outraged and forget that the real outrages are 'domestic'.
 

Yen

Member
Mark Devenport ‏@markdevenport
Assembly votes to lower voting age to 16 by 51 votes to 29

Great
UUP voted in favour and so did a fair few DUP MLAs, AFAIK.
 
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