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UK PoliGAF thread of tell me about the rabbits again, Dave.
- Thread starter Chinner
- Start date
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Meadows said:
If we handed over enough money it would all become very simple. Ireland would just tag along for the ride anyway. They have similar economic policies to us anyway, just magnified because their absolute size doesn't let them withstand the same shocks that we can.
Just think about it this way. Most sensible economists and brokers agree that Europe needs about 900bn to make the fund work for Italy, if we strode in and provided 300-350bn to them to make the fund work I think they would give us whatever the hell we want. If that means kicking the French in the balls and telling Sarkozy to fuck off then I'm pretty sure Merkel would do it. It gets Germany off the hook for the same 300-350bn.
I have always understood the need to bribe one's way in the EU, it just never really seemed urgent. Right now it is. The latest PMI readings for EMU nations is absolutely dire, all but Germany and Ireland are surely in a recession:
That's the manufacturing PMI, above 50 indicates order book growth and below 50 a contraction.
The Services PMI came today for EU countries:
UK - 51.3
Germany - 50.6
Ireland - 51.5
Spain - 41.8
Italy - 43.9
France - 44.6
We need to get the EMU nations sorted out and back on the path to growth and we need to make sure the EU is reformed on our terms so this doesn't happen again. That means we need to bribe them and bribe them good. Like I said above, think of it as securing Britain's future within the EU and in the short term because it will sort out EMU countries.
We really can't undo all of the good work in reducing the deficit and maintaining economic growth only to see it undone as our largest trading partner slips into a recession.
Speedymanic
Banned
dalin80 said:
You're right, but it still makes for depressing reading and shouldn't really be seen as the UK getting 'back on track' compared to other countries.
And as Frag mentioned, Inflation is pretty high at the moment, so that all but cancels out any kind of growth.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Speedymanic said:
I would say it's pretty decent. Not the best we could have done, but seriously better than the worst case scenario of another quarter of 0.1-0.2% growth. The economy is slowing down, even if the US starts to pick up again, our largest trading partner, the EU, is about to head into a deep recession of their own making because of a crazy ERM which forces the monetary rules of one part of Europe onto another.
If we can get 0.2% growth next quarter and 0.4-0.6% growth in the final quarter I think it counts as a job well done for UK PLC. What we need to avoid is a negative quarter like last year, even 0% would be fine tbh. Right now the signs are positive, we have a positive services sector, a very positive construction sector and just minor negative manufacturing, if we can keep it up until December we can stave off that looming double dip until the next financial year.
Oh, and growth is calculated with a deflater, so absolute growth of 5.7% would actually be 0.5% with 5.2% inflation.
High inflation is probably a good thing right now anyway, it helps people inflate their debts away and it keeps the currency weak for exporters (along with QE and low interest rates). It's a short terms measure to make the UK more internationally competitive and the least painful way of cutting costs without actual wage controls or wage cuts for public sector workers.
frankie_baby
Member
zomgbbqftw said:
Ah I never realised growth was calculated with a deflater, that explains a lot and makes sense
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Meadows said:
Latest quarter growth for the EU isn't out until the 15th when Eurostat make their report. Until then the UK grew at 0.5% and the US grew at 0.6%
Anyway, I have to look like I'm working for the next few hours... D:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15589788
Mixed news, personal insolvencies down (1%) to 30,219, but corporate insolvencies up (2%) to 1,253.
Mixed news, personal insolvencies down (1%) to 30,219, but corporate insolvencies up (2%) to 1,253.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Rourkey said:
Not really. If the UK was seen to be taking steps to ensure the Eurozone started working again and the paralysis of their economies was lifted I think it would be a net gain for us.
Anyway, the 300bn would be in the form of a loan so assets would be taken on as collateral. Whether those assets turn out to be worth anything is a different issue entirely, but for book purposes it would be £250bn out and 300bn in so our net debt position would not have changed. Our PSNBex would still be around 65% of GDP.
As far as getting the money back from Europe, we should be prepared to lose up to half of our money but if we can secure lasting reform of the EU and opt outs of other parts I think it would still work out in our favour. Being at the centre of Europe and pushing out the Gallic influence alone is probably worth the price of entry.
Right now we hand over £9bn a year and see little to no return because of the nature of the EU budget and how much they spend on the CAP, if we could reform the CAP so that it makes up less than 25% of a future budget and get more emphasis placed on research and development the whole of Europe would benefit and the UK would lead the way because we have the highest output of scientific research per capita in the world.
frankie_baby
Member
Rourkey said:
the french farmers would shut down the whole of france within minutes of any any hint of reform
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
Rourkey said:
I thought they would become a bit less "pro EU" if anything happened to their precious Agricultural subsidies.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
mclem said:
Our position in Europe. We have the second largest economy in the EU and we have the implicit backing of debt markets so we can afford to bail them out without getting in trouble ourselves. We can also leverage our position to get lasting reforms of the EU from within which is something other countries can't do. We can make these reforms a proviso of handing over the money.
First they go for a treaty change, get it signed by all 27 nations and then we hand over the money to save them. They deliver and we deliver. It will push the EU into the modern ages and get away from this stupid obsession with agricultural subsidies. If the French want to subsidise their agriculture industry they can pay for it themselves. EU money should be used for national development and wealth creation through scientific and technological advancement.
Only the UK can deliver these kinds of reforms to the EU, no other country is interested in taking the French on, and the ones that want to can't carry the votes to make the changes. It requires Germany and the UK to swing the rest of the commission against France and making the use of their Veto against us impossible by attaching a rider to the money dependent on their agreement to our terms.
If we can deliver the cash they need, we can get anything we want from them including structural and economic reforms that the organisation has needed for a long, long time. They will accommodate us as much as necessary if we come in with 300-350bn in funding for their bailout fund. No one else is going to give them that kind of money.
The best part is that we have a super duper money print which we can use to fund the purchase of the Euros we need. Once the bailout money is paid back (if) we can take back all of those Euros and hold them in the foreign currency reserve or pay back bondholders.
StealthGoblin
Banned
Teresa May demonstrating once again why she's useless (on QT). As I watched it last night, she looked lost, ill informed and flippant.
I agree that the routes of entry are far too convoluted. The PGCE courses themselves address the need for understanding child psychology and what it is to learn from scratch. Take synthetic phonics for example, those take a while to get your head around if you consider the viewpoint of the child. The modern PGCE programs are actually devoid of the overuse of political correctness. MA students for example are being taught more and more to be critical, say things how they are. Its almost as if the PGCE lecturers are passing on a 'fix this broken shit' message to the students. Its like they are training an army.
The government wants more and more teachers to hold MA degrees because they want teachers to be reflective practitioners of the profession. In the past, teachers became stagnant and did not modify their practice enough to reflect contemporary ideas and teaching methods. This can still be seen in some teachers that are 50-60 years old. It is the younger teachers or the teachers with MA degrees that are more in touch with current teaching philosophies, differentiation technique, EAL issues and SEN issues. Being a reflective practitioner in teaching means that you'll put in a lot more work initially before you get far enough down the meta-reflective path to know what to do in more or less every situation.
I've never seen this. I did a years unpaid TA work to prepare me for my PGCE and I was given every assistance I required/asked for. On PGCE courses, TA experience is basically a golden ticket because you can instantly relate to many aspects of the classroom. When I had my interview for the MA course, the feedback I got from the interview panel basically said that I knew my onions and that I should take to it like a duck to water.
I don't think a TA does even a smidge of the work that an outstanding teacher does, by the way. I've seen both sides of the story and the gulf is massive. That is not a knock to TA's. I consider them essential. Its just that an outstanding teacher does more than most people think.
The teaching route problem does need to be addressed as a matter of urgency in my opinion. Part of the reason why teachers are being so protective is that they've had to jump through so many hoops to do what they do. I'm sure you'll agree that the work your wife does is underpaid, particularly if she fulfils all of the criteria that an 'outstanding' teacher needs to. Primary Teaching is vastly different to Secondary Teaching and you basically have to instil the moral compass into pupils as they grow up.
Because you need a certain number of teachers per pupils. In schools where the 3 form entry is as stretched as it can be, you need those teachers. The TA's are seen as more expendable by upper management and are seen as easier to replace than a teacher. Its unfortunate that things are like that, because any teacher knows that TA's, LSA's and HILTA's are essential to an excellent teaching environment. Having been a TA myself and having a few in my family, I know that my TA/s won't be my slave/s.
When the big budget cuts sweep in, what would you cut? You can't cut ICT support, the buildings are already there, the teachers are needed. . .its going to be admin and learning support staff.
As an interesting side note, the Teaching Universities are already preparing their students for potential teaching lives without a TA. I've spoken to the head of school and I've basically got the hint that the Headteachers have hinted to them that something nasty is coming down the line, and that potential teachers need to be prepared for it. Even the head of ICT has mentioned it in passing. Something is definitely up.
While I mostly agree, it is usually the teachers with the degree in a particular subject that stand up for it and demonstrate its importance. With the new curriculum that is coming in, for example, we don't even know whether Art, D&T, History, Geography etc will be mandatory. Its the specialists in these areas that are more often than not the ones that become the 'defenders of the faith' and when they are in positions as co-ordinators for these subject areas, they bring an enthusiasm and depth of knowledge to the position that someone without a higher level of knowledge more often than not lacks. For example, someone with a degree in science, like myself is likely to be much more enthusiastic about the subject area and actively search for ways to improve the teaching of the subject at the school, instead of phoning it in.
I've had involvement with several schools where the co-ordinator for a subject hasn't got a degree in the subject and you know what? It shows. Someone with an art degree can bring such a ridiculous enthusiasm to promoting the subject that their enthusiasm can become infectious. If you put me in that position, I wouldn't even know where to begin to be frank.
Ideally we'd want people who are experts in the field, have a high level of enthusiasm, are aware of different teaching pedagogies, are reflective practitioners, are adaptable, empathetic, great communicators, inspiring and have demonstrated that they are capable of working at a high level, consistently.
You know the worst taught subject at Primary Level? Science. People with an expertise in the subject don't tend to teach at Primary Level and the majority of teachers simply don't like science. Its awful to watch it happen. That is why I am working at a Primary Level. I'm going to sort this shit out. Eventually I'll get my Doctorate and I'll kick and scream enough in the appropriate circles that something is done about it.
There are routes out there where you can learn on the job. I have a friend who is teaching English at a secondary school and her fees are minimal. All you need is the basic GCSE requirement and a 2.2 degree in the relevant subject.
Out of interest, what subjects do you have your degrees in? My MA course has a Pharmacologist (me), a trained lawyer, a former Army physio-therapist, psychology students, education studies graduates etc. A real mix.
The teaching Unions have largely been useless for too long. There hasn't really been anything that most teachers have objected to, to be honest. I don't think they have much input into the 'rank protectionism' you've mentioned though.
In general though, I think most people don't even understand even 5% of the demands of teaching. Behind that man/woman behind that desk is a mountain of requirements, standards, critical thinking, reflection, planning, creativity, subject knowledge and charm. If a teacher doesn't have all of that, they are failing pupils in my opinion.
For too long, people like that (who lack those things) have had control of a classroom and I'm glad that the system has changed. The high standards of entry are a way of trying to 'weed out' the people who will likely fall short of 'outstanding' teacher status. Unfortunately we will miss out people like yourself who would probably bring a lot to the profession. I'm not sure what the solution is really.
If the standards for entry are dropped, though we may gain one of you, we would potentially be letting in one of the 'not good enough' people I spoke of earlier.
Its a very tricky situation.
Outside of all of these issues, the quality of parenting has taken a nosedive. Serious. Fucking. Nosedive.
phisheep said:
I agree that the routes of entry are far too convoluted. The PGCE courses themselves address the need for understanding child psychology and what it is to learn from scratch. Take synthetic phonics for example, those take a while to get your head around if you consider the viewpoint of the child. The modern PGCE programs are actually devoid of the overuse of political correctness. MA students for example are being taught more and more to be critical, say things how they are. Its almost as if the PGCE lecturers are passing on a 'fix this broken shit' message to the students. Its like they are training an army.
The government wants more and more teachers to hold MA degrees because they want teachers to be reflective practitioners of the profession. In the past, teachers became stagnant and did not modify their practice enough to reflect contemporary ideas and teaching methods. This can still be seen in some teachers that are 50-60 years old. It is the younger teachers or the teachers with MA degrees that are more in touch with current teaching philosophies, differentiation technique, EAL issues and SEN issues. Being a reflective practitioner in teaching means that you'll put in a lot more work initially before you get far enough down the meta-reflective path to know what to do in more or less every situation.
phisheep said:
I've never seen this. I did a years unpaid TA work to prepare me for my PGCE and I was given every assistance I required/asked for. On PGCE courses, TA experience is basically a golden ticket because you can instantly relate to many aspects of the classroom. When I had my interview for the MA course, the feedback I got from the interview panel basically said that I knew my onions and that I should take to it like a duck to water.
I don't think a TA does even a smidge of the work that an outstanding teacher does, by the way. I've seen both sides of the story and the gulf is massive. That is not a knock to TA's. I consider them essential. Its just that an outstanding teacher does more than most people think.
phisheep said:
The teaching route problem does need to be addressed as a matter of urgency in my opinion. Part of the reason why teachers are being so protective is that they've had to jump through so many hoops to do what they do. I'm sure you'll agree that the work your wife does is underpaid, particularly if she fulfils all of the criteria that an 'outstanding' teacher needs to. Primary Teaching is vastly different to Secondary Teaching and you basically have to instil the moral compass into pupils as they grow up.
phisheep said:
Because you need a certain number of teachers per pupils. In schools where the 3 form entry is as stretched as it can be, you need those teachers. The TA's are seen as more expendable by upper management and are seen as easier to replace than a teacher. Its unfortunate that things are like that, because any teacher knows that TA's, LSA's and HILTA's are essential to an excellent teaching environment. Having been a TA myself and having a few in my family, I know that my TA/s won't be my slave/s.
When the big budget cuts sweep in, what would you cut? You can't cut ICT support, the buildings are already there, the teachers are needed. . .its going to be admin and learning support staff.
As an interesting side note, the Teaching Universities are already preparing their students for potential teaching lives without a TA. I've spoken to the head of school and I've basically got the hint that the Headteachers have hinted to them that something nasty is coming down the line, and that potential teachers need to be prepared for it. Even the head of ICT has mentioned it in passing. Something is definitely up.
phisheep said:
While I mostly agree, it is usually the teachers with the degree in a particular subject that stand up for it and demonstrate its importance. With the new curriculum that is coming in, for example, we don't even know whether Art, D&T, History, Geography etc will be mandatory. Its the specialists in these areas that are more often than not the ones that become the 'defenders of the faith' and when they are in positions as co-ordinators for these subject areas, they bring an enthusiasm and depth of knowledge to the position that someone without a higher level of knowledge more often than not lacks. For example, someone with a degree in science, like myself is likely to be much more enthusiastic about the subject area and actively search for ways to improve the teaching of the subject at the school, instead of phoning it in.
I've had involvement with several schools where the co-ordinator for a subject hasn't got a degree in the subject and you know what? It shows. Someone with an art degree can bring such a ridiculous enthusiasm to promoting the subject that their enthusiasm can become infectious. If you put me in that position, I wouldn't even know where to begin to be frank.
Ideally we'd want people who are experts in the field, have a high level of enthusiasm, are aware of different teaching pedagogies, are reflective practitioners, are adaptable, empathetic, great communicators, inspiring and have demonstrated that they are capable of working at a high level, consistently.
You know the worst taught subject at Primary Level? Science. People with an expertise in the subject don't tend to teach at Primary Level and the majority of teachers simply don't like science. Its awful to watch it happen. That is why I am working at a Primary Level. I'm going to sort this shit out. Eventually I'll get my Doctorate and I'll kick and scream enough in the appropriate circles that something is done about it.
phisheep said:
There are routes out there where you can learn on the job. I have a friend who is teaching English at a secondary school and her fees are minimal. All you need is the basic GCSE requirement and a 2.2 degree in the relevant subject.
Out of interest, what subjects do you have your degrees in? My MA course has a Pharmacologist (me), a trained lawyer, a former Army physio-therapist, psychology students, education studies graduates etc. A real mix.
phisheep said:
The teaching Unions have largely been useless for too long. There hasn't really been anything that most teachers have objected to, to be honest. I don't think they have much input into the 'rank protectionism' you've mentioned though.
In general though, I think most people don't even understand even 5% of the demands of teaching. Behind that man/woman behind that desk is a mountain of requirements, standards, critical thinking, reflection, planning, creativity, subject knowledge and charm. If a teacher doesn't have all of that, they are failing pupils in my opinion.
For too long, people like that (who lack those things) have had control of a classroom and I'm glad that the system has changed. The high standards of entry are a way of trying to 'weed out' the people who will likely fall short of 'outstanding' teacher status. Unfortunately we will miss out people like yourself who would probably bring a lot to the profession. I'm not sure what the solution is really.
If the standards for entry are dropped, though we may gain one of you, we would potentially be letting in one of the 'not good enough' people I spoke of earlier.
Its a very tricky situation.
Outside of all of these issues, the quality of parenting has taken a nosedive. Serious. Fucking. Nosedive.
Yeah, she's not the best on TV, but generally she's not actually as bad as she comes across imo. Still, wish we had a LD in that position, but I guess you couldn't make 2 of the 3 main positions be held by the minority parliament. Actually, they'd probably put Huhne as home sec which would be abjectly terrible.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Dambrosi said:
I'm not certain. I think the sticking point will be the Lib Dems who will take a very Labour line and just want to hand the cash over to them without any negotiation or concessions over reform or opt outs.
Osborne has the balls to do it, he's one of those politicians who doesn't care if people like him or not, in fact I think he likes being unpopular because then he doesn't need to worry about alienating people.
The latest anti-Muslim facebook (COPY AND PASTE IF YOU AGREE) thing going around is that some ex-EDL twats spraypainted a mosque with a poppy in revenge for the Muslims Against Crusades poppy burning and the spraypainting of war memorial with "Islam will dominate the world, Osama is on his way". Thing is the poppy burning/war memorial desecration only got £50/500 fines whereas the EDL got 12 weeks prison with 1 year suspended.
Now I know these things are normally a load of bollocks, but as far as I can see this is actually the truth behind the story, no bs BNP scare stories. I know we have some legal so-and-sos on GAF, so how can this be?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/mar/07/muslim-extremist-fined-for-poppy-burning
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...Laden-graffiti-not-religiously-motivated.html
http://www.darlingtonandstocktontim...e_members_jailed_over_mosque_and_shop_attack/
Now I know these things are normally a load of bollocks, but as far as I can see this is actually the truth behind the story, no bs BNP scare stories. I know we have some legal so-and-sos on GAF, so how can this be?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/mar/07/muslim-extremist-fined-for-poppy-burning
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...Laden-graffiti-not-religiously-motivated.html
http://www.darlingtonandstocktontim...e_members_jailed_over_mosque_and_shop_attack/
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
zomgbbqftw said:
I'd really like to know more about Osborne's personal politics - I feel I'd find them repulsive, but he's a shockingly firm politician.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
vcassano1 said:
Socially liberal, fiscally conservative. Is said to favour further and faster public sector cuts even if it causes lower growth or a double dip because he thinks the real recession that is around the corner will leave Britain in an even worse place. He wants the private sector to grow to around 60-65% of the economy vs 55% atm. He likes the idea of tax competition and investment competition, is considering a new capital investment allowance system to attract multi-nationals away from continental Europe and into Britain. It means they would get away with paying 10-15% tax (which is very low compared to Europe) but they would create thousands of jobs and invest private money into the economy. That's his theory.
Hates the EU and everything it stands for I'm told. Doesn't want out, but actually favours a plan similar to the one I have mentioned, where Britain bails them out and gets its way with reforms.
Socially, pro-gay marriage, pro gay-adoption, pro-abortion. Basically doesn't care what people do in their private lives and likes the state to keep out of such matters. In a sense he isn't even for all of the stuff I mentioned, he is just so anti-interventionist when it comes to social matters that he will always vote against intervention.
Is said to be hawkish on foreign policy and was, along with Hague, the leading proponent of Libyan intervention. Believes the military should be able to project worldwide, but thinks we need a unified force like the Royal Marines rather than separated forces with the Army, RAF and Royal Navy. To that end recruitment for the Marines is up massively while RAF and Navy recruitment is down, a lot of units and squadrons are being merged into the Marines. Said to believe special forces have a key role in safeguarding Britain's future, thinks they need to be able to assassinate any terrorist or threat to Britain's well-being.
That's a run down on George Osborne. From his voting record and what I know from other Tory sources.
Speedymanic
Banned
Osama is on his way? To the bottom of the ocean?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-15578300
"NEET (Not in Education, Employment or Training)" blackspots revealed. Worst areas are Grimsby, Wigan, Warrington and Doncaster. Not surprised to see my hometown there, there are so few jobs for young people.
Also, the use of the word "NEET" is really annoying and seems a bit "Whitehall". If someone called me a NEET because I came from a disadvantaged background I'd fucking deck em.
"NEET (Not in Education, Employment or Training)" blackspots revealed. Worst areas are Grimsby, Wigan, Warrington and Doncaster. Not surprised to see my hometown there, there are so few jobs for young people.
Also, the use of the word "NEET" is really annoying and seems a bit "Whitehall". If someone called me a NEET because I came from a disadvantaged background I'd fucking deck em.
I am all for destroying the CAP + CFP, they are a disgrace.zomgbbqftw said:
However I do not for a second believe in the Anglo-Saxon approach to regulation and the prioritisation of shareholder wealth maximisation. Read Anglo-Saxon as English/American. Germany isn't like this at all. Regulation in the EU is no bad thing and the only arguments to it come from the Anglo-Saxon corporatist world.
Neither do I believe in splintering the EU by removing one of the biggest nations on the continent away from it. France is at the heart of Europe. Furthermore no matter which way you frame it the EU is a political union more than it is an economic one. The idea that the Scandinavians and Germans would have more in common with us than the French is wholly ridiculous considering their approach to the social charter for instance.
Although I do agree with your premise that if we contributed the capital we would buy ourselves a lot of clout instantly and would be able to shape the future of Europe. Destroying CAP though....maybe a red line we would struggle to breach, which is a shame.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
louis89 said:
http://blogs.channel4.com/faisal-is...atcher-handbag-eu-moment-over-tobin-tax/15480
The Chancellor explains much better than I can! Great riposte from him against an absolutely insane idea.
On an EMU only FTT. It would have some effect on us initially (bad for us), but eventually trading would just bypass the EMU and trades would take place in GBP instead of EUR. If they kept it for more than a couple of years I expect GBP would replace EUR as a world reserve currency (good for us) and business would leak from the EMU into Britain and Sweden (good for us).
If they want to commit suicide I say let them, but thankfully there are some EMU finance ministers who have realised the folly of a non worldwide FTT. The whole idea is championed by Sarkozy so he can blame Britain for the EMU failing, if you watch the video you can see GO lays out four areas where the money has been earmarked (in its entirety no less, 4 times over) and one of them is to save the Eurozone governments by plugging their deficits. Once we veto the idea Sarko can say it is our fault that the EU has no money to save the Euro. It is patently false and a clear case of deflection from the problems France are facing with insolvent banks.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
kitch9 said:
You make the (incorrect I think) assumption that the money would find its way back to us. France have been looking to make the EFSF the insurer of first loss to protect their banks, for some reason I have yet to understand Merkel is just going along with this. That's why no outside country wants to invest in the EFSF.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15715348
It is only day one of the Leveson inquiry and there is already evidence that the Sun and the Mirror were involved. I guess it is to much to hope that they go the same way as the NotW.
It is only day one of the Leveson inquiry and there is already evidence that the Sun and the Mirror were involved. I guess it is to much to hope that they go the same way as the NotW.
J Tourettes
Banned
Saiyar said:
I may have mentioned this before but I hope that cunt Piers Morgan gets dragged into it.
travisbickle
Member
Dambrosi said:...Are they really calling our unemployed youth the equivalent of "basement-dwellers"? Yeah, that attitude'll get them the youth vote
Plus, don't you have to not be seeking work to be a NEET? This report is garbage.
I think you are looking at the article the wrong way?
It talks about support and opportunities not being available for young people. It's not about branding the teenagers it's about trying to change the system to give young NEETS opportunities.
When it was just the NotW the anger was focused and the brand became toxic enough to warrant the closure of the paper. If it was just The Sun that'll be named and shamed then I'd imagine there'd be a modest chance it could get the ax too. If it's The Sun and The Mirror... well, then it's just an "unacceptable industry practice" and "everyone's doing it".Saiyar said:
