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[Karsticles]

The whiff normals comes into play at ranges within st.H when you are pressurized by fast characters. And the better Vergil players utilize DT more in the neutral especially players like Omniscythe. In some ways DT is better and amplifies his anchor capabilities even further plus making his assists better. He can go at least 5/5 with any characters while in DT mode. When you mess something up you go into DT instead of SS because DT lasts way longer. SS is for combos and lockdown/mix ups and DT is for neutral game dominance and superior rushdown.

And there is definitely reason to use the other swords formation now that tech has been developed. The Blistering sword gives Vergil a legit instant overhead as used by Dacidbro at Norcal Knockouts. Plus it gives you LONGER lock down than Spiral Swords if you space out the swords correctly.... the problem is that people don't know how to use it but it's a tool even more powerful than Spiral Swords. Japanese players have begun to use it more and are profiting from it. No need to talk about Storm Swords, it's a situational but very strong tool in the 1 on 1 battle that basically "check mates" Phoenix as Viscant put it.

I just watched XF3 Vergil chew through a whole team that superjumped on reaction to Spiral Swords and still got mixed up on the landing. I don't find your arguments to be validated in actual tournament play.

So now we are talking about XF3 Vergil with meter. If you nerf Spiral Swords to 2 meter, then people will just turn on DT and basically achieve damage/speed above Dark Wesker level.

I always talk about whole characters. I don't care about DT Vergil because, in your own words, "no mixups". He can air dash toward me all day if he wants.

I think Ouroborus is underpowered at LVL3 just like Jill's LVL3 and Firebrand's LVL3. These should be LVL2 or made better. For the record I do think Spiral Sword is too good but not in the ways that you think it is. Similarly I think EX Seismo is busted, I mean what other hyper covers that much portion of the screen, has insane invincibility, is +30 on block or something and leads into a full TOD? I also think Sogenmu is busted as well but that's more like the character the hyper is attached to than the hyper itself.

I think that 3 bars of meter for a utility hyper is probably just a bad idea in general. It's difficult to justify spending it on utility in most cases. Strider's is the most solid though, I wouldn't put it anywhere near how terrible Firebrand's is (for 3 bars that is).

 

[Tirael]

Nerf him right along with Vajra becoming a soft knockdown and making Vergil's Spiral Swords a level 2.

Actually, I think this is reasonable, but with a bit more tweaking. Make it last a bit longer, and make Blistering Swords and the Storm Swords free.

Fix Vergil's dumbass hitstun and both sides hitboxes and I'm happy tbh. He'd still be stupid but not so face-rolly.

My current sparring partner uses Vergil and I'LL BE DAMNED if his hitboxes don't home in on me. I swear, there was one time during our last sparring match that he did MHSH on me in the air, the M connected, but after that I was on the opposite side of him, and Vergil auto-corrected for the last three hits, IN THE WRONG DIRECTION. As in, I switched sides every hit, and he was turned around in the wrong direction every hit, but he DIDN'T MISS.

Even my opponent admitted that this was dumb.

 

[MisterLuffy]

For those who have UMVC3 guide, is it worth the purchase?

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Dahbomb talk about how fair and balanced Vajra is.

 

[crimsonspider89]

Vajira isn't fair at all since a lot of the characters in upper tier that lack air mobility can profit off of a hard knockdown like no one's business.

Can be kinda stupid. IDK what it needs to cause a soft knockdown would be even more stupid. Can you imagine an AA version of Akuma's tatsu?

Logan would love that.

 

[Karsticles]

Actually, I think this is reasonable, but with a bit more tweaking. Make it last a bit longer, and make Blistering Swords and the Storm Swords free.

That seems reasonable. You get a few seconds as Spiral Swords, then you can shift it to Storm or Blistering for free, and the whole thing is 2 bars.

My current sparring partner uses Vergil and I'LL BE DAMNED if his hitboxes don't home in on me. I swear, there was one time during our last sparring match that he did MHSH on me in the air, the M connected, but after that I was on the opposite side of him, and Vergil auto-corrected for the last three hits, IN THE WRONG DIRECTION. As in, I switched sides every hit, and he was turned around in the wrong direction every hit, but he DIDN'T MISS.

Even my opponent admitted that this was dumb.

Auto-correct normals drive me nuts sometimes. Why is Illusion even in this game?!

For those who have UMVC3 guide, is it worth the purchase?

I think it is. Then again, I'm a numbers guy. I was still reading the Vanilla guide up to the week of Ultimate's release.

Dahbomb talk about how fair and balanced Vajra is.

ROFL

Vajira isn't fair at all since a lot of the characters in upper tier that lack air mobility can profit off of a hard knockdown like no one's business.

Can be kinda stupid. IDK what it needs to cause a soft knockdown would be even more stupid. Can you imagine an AA version of Akuma's tatsu?

Logan would love that.

How would it be more stupid? Anything you can do with a soft knockdown you can do with a hard knockdown, and then some.

 

[crimsonspider89]

Means Strider assist allows for more ground based characters to use it to get a full combo off of it due to the unique falling state it puts the opponent in.

Let us look at how you can use Akuma's tatsu to extend combos. Imagine being able to do that with an AA assist that tracks.

 

[Killa Sasa]

Means Strider assist allows for more ground based characters to use it to get a full combo off of it due to the unique falling state it puts the opponent in.

Let us look at how you can use Akuma's tatsu to extend combos. Imagine being able to do that with an AA assist that tracks.

You can do that with Vajra right now. Soft knockdown refers to immediate techability as soon as you touch the ground, not falling speed.

 

[Solune]

Chris G rating user submitted team compositions.

I seem to agree with Chris G mostly, except for Chris being low tier. Especially in Ultimate I feel he's high mid tier.

 

[Karsticles]

Means Strider assist allows for more ground based characters to use it to get a full combo off of it due to the unique falling state it puts the opponent in.

Let us look at how you can use Akuma's tatsu to extend combos. Imagine being able to do that with an AA assist that tracks.

I think you might be confusing "soft" and "spinning".

Hard knockdown = untechable knockdown = you are on the ground and there is a period where you may be hit by OTG attacks

Soft knockdown = as soon as you touch the ground you gain invincibility frames and perform a roll recovery

Spinning knockdown = can be hard or soft, but during your descent to the ground you spin in the air and are more floaty, such as after being hit by all of Sentinel's Hard Drive

Chris G rating user submitted team compositions.

It's annoying when I want to talk about a team I want to use and people respond with something like "just put Magneto in", and I'm not sure how it's any different here.

On that note, while I'm enjoying Dr. Strange/Dormammu/Morrigan, I think I'm going to give Magneto/Dormammu/Dr. Strange a shot. This was actually one of my pre-release teams, but I decided not to because Dr. Strange rubbed me the wrong way. Now that he and I are on good terms, I'll give it a shot. Team "Caped Magicians".

Magneto (EM Disruptor)
Dormammu (Dark Hole)
Dr. Strange (Bolts of Balthakk)

Good DHCs, all good anchors, very good at punishing assists, good at keepaway and rushdown, not susceptible to snapbacks ruining the team.

 

[crimsonspider89]

I could of swore there is something about the soft knockdown state that allows it to be used for crazy combo extension.

I may be wrong.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

It's like in Vanilla when you get hit by buster in the air you drop like a rock. Or if you dhc from Supernova before the last hit.

I think that's what you're talking about.

 

[Dahbomb]

Dahbomb talk about how fair and balanced Vajra is.

Sorry brah but it's not completely fair and balanced. The biggest problem with it is that characters with the ability to OTG pick up into a full combo have an instant edge over characters who don't. Since this assist is so top it further differentiates the tier lists towards those who can pick up off of a Vajra hit which is a huge trait to have. Doom, Wesker, Viper, Dante etc are going to remain top because they are BFFs with Vajra. This also limits teams synergies and further concentrates teams into the usual Dante/Wesker/Strider or Wesker/Doom/Strider combinations.

I have to agree with it being soft knockdown. It used to be a ground bounce where every character got a free combo from it and that was way overpowered too. Now it's only overpowered for those who can OTG into a full combo.

I just watched XF3 Vergil chew through a whole team that superjumped on reaction to Spiral Swords and still got mixed up on the landing. I don't find your arguments to be validated in actual tournament play.

Again this is LVL3XF Vergil with meter, I was talking about regular Vergil trying to mix up you with Spiral Swords across the screen. If you see anchor Vergil on a team then you need to snap him in because he has no air mobility to escape incoming mix ups. Also against XFLVL3 Vergil you need to save your XF until he activates his and after that happens he is pretty free as you can blow him up XFC thanks to his long recoveries.

If someone plays Vergil as an anchor character then you deal with him like an anchor character (like Phoenix, Skrull, Arthur) and he becomes way more manageable. If he is on point then you play the match up accordingly.

Auto-correct normals drive me nuts sometimes. Why is Illusion even in this game?!

I probably mentioned this earlier in my Strange write up... auto correct normals KILLS the efficacy of Illusion.

I could of swore there is something about the soft knockdown state that allows it to be used for crazy combo extension.

Soft knockdown basically means that you can't tech in the air until you fall to the ground and then you roll away. Hard knockdown is the same only when you hit the ground you stay there for quite a while, enough for you to be OTG. Tatsu used to be soft knockdown meaning if you got hit by Tatsu the point character had enough time to get the opponent before they hit the ground. Now they flip out in the air and thanks to hit stun scaling applying to assists combo extenders using Tatsu have to be super tight as well. Basically putting soft knockdown on Vajra would mean that once Vajra hits it will bring them to the ground but they can roll from it. If you want a combo then either Strider has to hit them standing or you are directly below Vajra and time your pick up properly.

And no one wants spinning state for Vajra that would make it SUPER BROKEN.

 

[Karsticles]

Sorry brah but it's not completely fair and balanced. The biggest problem with it is that characters with the ability to OTG pick up into a full combo have an instant edge over characters who don't. Since this assist is so top it further differentiates the tier lists towards those who can pick up off of a Vajra hit which is a huge trait to have. Doom, Wesker, Viper, Dante etc are going to remain top because they are BFFs with Vajra. This also limits teams synergies and further concentrates teams into the usual Dante/Wesker/Strider or Wesker/Doom/Strider combinations.

I have to agree with it being soft knockdown. It used to be a ground bounce where every character got a free combo from it and that was way overpowered too. Now it's only overpowered for those who can OTG into a full combo.

Oh man, I forgot about when it was a ground bounce. I was so pissed off. It pretty much guaranteed that there was no hope of me keeping Phoenix/Dormammu/Morrigan going in Ultimate.

Again this is LVL3XF Vergil with meter, I was talking about regular Vergil trying to mix up you with Spiral Swords across the screen. If you see anchor Vergil on a team then you need to snap him in because he has no air mobility to escape incoming mix ups. Also against XFLVL3 Vergil you need to save your XF until he activates his and after that happens he is pretty free as you can blow him up XFC thanks to his long recoveries.

If someone plays Vergil as an anchor character then you deal with him like an anchor character (like Phoenix, Skrull, Arthur) and he becomes way more manageable. If he is on point then you play the match up accordingly.

I still think it's a problem that XF3 Dark Phoenix is less terrifying than XF3 Dark Vergil, assuming both have meter. I still don't think it's justified for a character to have solo mixups for 1 bar at any time, and I don't think anything you've said changes my thoughts on that. I would be happy if Spiral Swords had a startup like Astral Vision, though.

I probably mentioned this earlier in my Strange write up... auto correct normals KILLS the efficacy of Illusion.

Maybe if I call an assist right beforehand? Or maybe it should just be special cancelable.

 

[Dahbomb]

Start up change is a good idea. Way better than making it 2 meter. They can also shave off the durability on that thing.

Or maybe it should just be special cancelable.

It should be special cancellable or leaves an actual illusion that the opponent sticks to for a bit while the real Strange crosses up.

 

[crimsonspider89]

Yeah I need to play more.

Crappy controllers. We wore out our controllers, actually I did.

Anyway, the issue is Neo G is in love with DMC and the shit he gives the DMC brothers is stupid. But Nitsuma is in love with Zero.

Strange's illusion should of made it where autocorrect was delayed.

Vergil, RT glitch gone, spiral swords no longer a hyper projectile in durability, and fix lunar phasing damage.

Viper/Zero have to have there damage scaling fixed on specials. Strider, make it cause a soft knockdown instead of hard knockdown.

 

["God's Beard!"]

It would be cool if it was two-meter, infinite duration until the hits ran out and you could change the modes for free.

 

[Dahbomb]

It would be cool if it was two-meter, infinite duration until the hits ran out and you could change the modes for free.

I don't know how I feel about this. On one end this doesn't seem that powerful especially considering how it butchers his damage potential but on the other hand... the mix ups.

Vergil, RT glitch gone, spiral swords no longer a hyper projectile in durability, and fix lunar phasing damage.

I would be OK with this.

 

[Frantic]

Start up change is a good idea. Way better than making it 2 meter. They can also shave off the durability on that thing.

A resounding yes on lowering the durability. Seeing him run through supers like Legion Arrows and Million Dollars makes me sad.

On the subject of Vajra... I'll take whatever nerfs they dish out to it, just as long as they leave the tracking alone. It really helps with my zoning, more than any other assists outside of Hidden Missiles. I'll be sad if I lose that.

 

[Karsticles]

Start up change is a good idea. Way better than making it 2 meter. They can also shave off the durability on that thing.

I'd be fine with those changes.

It should be special cancellable or leaves an actual illusion that the opponent sticks to for a bit while the real Strange crosses up.

That would lead to a lot of glitches I bet. Reversed inputs, and all.

A resounding yes on lowering the durability. Seeing him run through supers like Legion Arrows and Million Dollars makes me sad.

On the subject of Vajra... I'll take whatever nerfs they dish out to it, just as long as they leave the tracking alone. It really helps with my zoning, more than any other assists outside of Hidden Missiles. I'll be sad if I lose that.

You can keep your tracking if Purification can get tracking!

 

[Dahbomb]

That would lead to a lot of glitches I bet. Reversed inputs, and all.

So basically like MODOK's Bomb.

Epic.

 

[Karsticles]

So basically like MODOK's Bomb.

Epic.

Yeah, but would it reverse all the inputs? If so, I think it would work, but if not, it would get weird. Regardless, it's be an improvement... I'm so damn good at countering things in games, it's a shame I don't get to use it.

 

[Dahbomb]

So best counters/reversal in the game? No meter requiring moves of course.

Chun Li - Has a ton, her EX SBK is super good as are her DP Legs. Really hard to rushdown a Chun player although keeping her out is the real tactic.

Jill - Somersault Kick... NUFF SAID

Joe - Slow Dodge

Amaterasu - Great range of counters that stay active while keep her in a favorable position

Zero - Ryuejin is super underrated as a AA reversal option. Can be converted into a full TOD.

Haggar - .... YOU KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT

Arthur - Shield Parry and Heavenly Slash. Yeah people forget he has this stuff.

Ryu - DP+S only because it has like so many frames of invincibility

 

[Karsticles]

So best counters/reversal in the game? No meter requiring moves of course.

Chun Li - Has a ton, her EX SBK is super good as are her DP Legs. Really hard to rushdown a Chun player although keeping her out is the real tactic.

Jill - Somersault Kick... NUFF SAID

Joe - Slow Dodge

Amaterasu - Great range of counters that stay active while keep her in a favorable position

Zero - Ryuejin is super underrated as a AA reversal option. Can be converted into a full TOD.

Haggar - .... YOU KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT

Arthur - Shield Parry and Heavenly Slash. Yeah people forget he has this stuff.

Ryu - DP+S only because it has like so many frames of invincibility

Akuma's DP too, since you can hyper cancel it to make it perfectly safe.

 

[shaowebb]

Akuma's DP too, since you can hyper cancel it to make it perfectly safe.

Doesn't that technically break the "no meter requiring moves" rule though?

 

[Karsticles]

Doesn't that technically break the "no meter requiring moves" rule though?

The DP is meterless, though. You only need to cancel if it doesn't hit. ;-)

 

[A Pretty Panda]

You can keep your tracking if Purification can get tracking!

Nah. Purification doesn't track on point. At least it makes sense for Vajra to track so well since the point version does.

I think the point version might be better since I've never seen it whiff.

See they already nerfed it leave him alone!

The DP is meterless, though. You only need to cancel if it doesn't hit. ;-)

I remember Daigo did a wakeup DP into super that was a happy birthday, that was hilarious.

 

[Dahbomb]

Akuma can probably get a full combo using air XF off of his DP. Never tried, seems like something that might work.

Some assist moves aren't like their point versions (She Hulk's Clothesline). Some assists are moves which the character as a point doesn't even possess (Frank West).

 

[Tirael]

Sorry brah but it's not completely fair and balanced. The biggest problem with it is that characters with the ability to OTG pick up into a full combo have an instant edge over characters who don't. Since this assist is so top it further differentiates the tier lists towards those who can pick up off of a Vajra hit which is a huge trait to have. Doom, Wesker, Viper, Dante etc are going to remain top because they are BFFs with Vajra. This also limits teams synergies and further concentrates teams into the usual Dante/Wesker/Strider or Wesker/Doom/Strider combinations.

I have to agree with it being soft knockdown. It used to be a ground bounce where every character got a free combo from it and that was way overpowered too. Now it's only overpowered for those who can OTG into a full combo.

I agree with this completely. Before, anyone could use it to an extent. Now, it's even more polarizing for the top tier.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Akuma can probably get a full combo using air XF off of his DP. Never tried, seems like something that might work.

Some assist moves aren't like their point versions (She Hulk's Clothesline). Some assists are moves which the character as a point doesn't even possess (Frank West).

Whenever I've tried to xfactor out of Akuma's dp I always get super. But that may be because may execution isn't so great.

 

[SolarPowered]

So best counters/reversal in the game? No meter requiring moves of course.

Does Morrigan's DP have invul? She can get some decent combos off shadow blade since she can fly cancel.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Does Morrigan's DP have invul?

No, but it usually trades at worst.

 

[SolarKnight]

Today I finally got to test my Nova/Frank/RR team against the guys. It...actually fared pretty well to my surprise. Granted, I didn't get many wins against people that had an idea of what they were doing, but it still did better than my other teams.

(╯°□°）╯︵ [ニニニ]　ＬＯＧ　ＴＲＡＰ！


Still, even though it was done because of time issues, Marvel tourneys that are just one match, not even 2 out of 3, are just lame -.-

 

[Karsticles]

Nah. Purification doesn't track on point. At least it makes sense for Vajra to track so well since the point version does.

I think the point version might be better since I've never seen it whiff.

See they already nerfed it leave him alone!

Lots of assists change between point and anchor positions, and the game has a lot of assists that don't even exist on the point character. I don't see why Purification not tracking on point matters. I'd be just as happy with Dormammu's assists changing to incorporate Dark Matter, though.

Tracking Purification is mostly a nostalgia point. In MvC2 my team was Sentinel/Blackheart/Captain Commando. Flying around with Sentinel on point with a combination of tracking pillars and get-off-me pillars was really enjoyable. When Dormammu was announced, Seth Killian told us he was "Blackheart's replacement" - fine, that's cool. I saw Purification, and it was pretty clear to me at the time that it would work like Blackheart's Inferno, and I'd get to keep my favorite team setup. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. I was fine with it for balance purposes, but Vajra is like a slap in the face on that logic, since it's several times better than what a tracking Purification could offer. Not to mention that it happens to counter all my favorite characters.

So yeah, nerf Vajra into the ground, or give me my tracking Purification.

Akuma can probably get a full combo using air XF off of his DP. Never tried, seems like something that might work.

Some assist moves aren't like their point versions (She Hulk's Clothesline). Some assists are moves which the character as a point doesn't even possess (Frank West).

Probably via demon flip.

Does Morrigan's DP have invul? She can get some decent combos off shadow blade since she can fly cancel.

Not on point, but the alpha counter version has 4 frames IIRC. 3 frame startup makes it really strong as an anti-air, too. I'm terrible at remembering to utilize her DP.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Tracking Purification is mostly a nostalgia point. In MvC2 my team was Sentinel/Blackheart/Captain Commando. Flying around with Sentinel on point with a combination of tracking pillars and get-off-me pillars was really enjoyable. When Dormammu was announced, Seth Killian told us he was "Blackheart's replacement" - fine, that's cool. I saw Purification, and it was pretty clear to me at the time that it would work like Blackheart's Inferno, and I'd get to keep my favorite team setup. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. I was fine with it for balance purposes, but Vajra is like a slap in the face on that logic, since it's several times better than what a tracking Purification could offer. Not to mention that it happens to counter all my favorite characters.

Yeah I guess that makes sense.

Vajra should stay as is though.

Now to my next point: Doom is overrated as sin and I don't know why people use him other than for assists.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Now to my next point: Doom is overrated as sin and I don't know why people use him other than for assists.

it's kinda cool that he can jump cancel his launcher on block, but other than that he's kinda boring to me

 

[biosnake20]

Yeah I guess that makes sense.

Vajra should stay as is though.

Now to my next point: Doom is overrated as sin and I don't know why people use him other than for assists.

Fo- fo- fo- fo- fo- fo- fo- foot dive. And his tac.

 

[SolarKnight]

Now to my next point: Doom is overrated as sin and if you use him for anything other than his assists you're crazy.

His footdive that gives Doom FOREVER to confirm into an OTG is still annoying as hell though.

 

[Karsticles]

Yeah I guess that makes sense.

Yes, it does!

Vajra should stay as is though.

No!

Now to my next point: Doom is overrated as sin and if you use him for anything other than his assists you're crazy.

I think you're half right. Cold Stars and Vajra make him very capable on point or second. He has stellar mix-ups, but he needs to have time to work them. He's not like Magneto who can just go crazy with the tridashes. I think labeling Doom as top tier isn't unwarranted if you consider his assists, TAC, and excellent DHCs (team specific) together with his huge damage output.

Like GB, I find him boring as hell to play. It's why I work so hard to find something to replace Hidden Missiles, and I'd love more screen controls like that for me to choose from.

His footdive that gives Doom FOREVER to confirm into an OTG is still annoying as hell though.

The simple question is: why aren't you blocking? I generally consider Doom a free win. You just block, pushblock, and then continue to play it safe.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

The simple question is: why aren't you blocking? I generally consider Doom a free win. You just block, pushblock, and then continue to play it safe.

Basically how I feel. Have any character from B tier and up show up on the other side of the screen and I'll say "I sure hope this guy doesn't have a good ___". But if it's Doom "great he's playing Doom, should be easy pickings".

 

[enzo_gt]

Yeah every time I get hit with foot dive, it's always a case of my feeling angry at myself for not blocking, not Doom. Block high all day.

 

[SolarKnight]

The simple question is: why aren't you blocking? I generally consider Doom a free win. You just block, pushblock, and then continue to play it safe.

Honestly, I haven't actually fought Doom in like forever, it's just something that annoys me a lot about him -.-

 

[Grecco]

Doom is NOT ovverated.

 

[Dahbomb]

Dooms point capabilities are a.tier but his support is s tier thus why he is top.tier. Same for Dante and strider only moreso.

 

[smurfx]

hey guys just lariat assist when vajra is called and kill him. i do it all the time. also taskmasters angled arrow hyper also catches him on the way down even if he is called after i started using it.

 

[Xevren]

I'd still nerf Doom's S back to Vanilla properties, he did NOT need that at all. It's up there with the stupid Wesker glasses shit for me.

 

[Killa Sasa]

Doom is scary in exactly one situation:

If Dog is behind him.

 

[Tirael]

I think labeling Doom as top tier isn't unwarranted if you consider his assists, TAC, and excellent DHCs (team specific) together with his huge damage output.

What's this I'm hearing about "Good TACs"? What makes a TAC good or bad?

Yeah every time I get hit with foot dive, it's always a case of my feeling angry at myself for not blocking, not Doom. Block high all day.

Problem is, my sparring partner knows how to go low with Doom, it's hard to fight him.

 

[SolarKnight]

What's this I'm hearing about "Good TACs"? What makes a TAC good or bad?

I'd imagine whatever a character can do out of a TAC. If the Doom knows what to do out of one, well, it's not pretty...well ok, it's pretty flashy but it's not pretty if you're on the receiving end of it.

 

[crimsonspider89]

Doom is A tier with Wesker and several others. Magneto/Vergil have moved into the S tier in most lists. Doom isn't like Dante on point or anchor or even Magneto.

Dante is still stupid, just not as stupid as he was in vanilla.

Doom just isn't nearly strong on point as Dante is.

Doom only has one derp move. Dante has BMC, grapple, hammer, his normals, multilock and reverb shock.... not even getting into DT here.