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[SolarPowered]

Cool.

And yeah anyone making suggestions on characters who already have 10 changes... you not only need to make a case for your new change but make a case for how one of the 10 changes is not needed and can be replaced.

I still think Karsticles needs to put down a number for Hsien-Ko's speed upgrade instead of "three-fold". I have no clue what that means. I can't imagine anyone at Japan would know. He can use the bible as a guideline since there are three XF speed increases. I'll have an idea of how fast she'd go if he gives a percentage.

Hsien-ko:
*Air dash speed increased three-fold; aerial momentum retained after attack-canceling.
*Senpu Bu now dash, Henkyo Ki, and j.S-cancelable.; startup reduced by 10 frames (all versions).
*Item throw durability increased to 3; Time Bomb remapped to qcf.S; stun items now regularly appears once every 4 tosses.
*Henkyo Ki now +5 on block at close range; active frames increased by 50% (all levels).
*Canceled ground dash now always behaves the same as her plink dash.
*Ground attacks dash cancelable.
*Ground dash invincible on frames 10 – 25; dash takes 30 total frames to complete; distance unchanged.
*Houten Geki and her air throw now lead to full combos via c.H follow-up.
*c.H now OTGs and is jump-cancelable; travels faster and slightly farther.
*Chireitou startup reduced to 20+3, now carries two characters.

Assists: Senpu Bu L, Henkyo Ki H, Anki Hou S.

If anyone can think of something reasonable to replace RDP motion for Henkyo-Ki I'm all ears. Being a command normal is TOO easy. Maybe back motion twice? (BB?).

 

[Karsticles]

If you think this is a huge buff then put it in/replace it. I don't know much about the character to argue.

Basically, imagine this:
A character is up in Arthur's face. Arthur, out of fear, uses his DP. It gets blocked, so he cancels into Goddess Bracelet to make it safe. Now, he can walk back during Goddess Bracelet so that when the hitstun ends, he has re-established some of his space.

Maybe not from scratch, but it would definitely be possible using a development engine. Wasn't Divekick started in MUGEN, or did I make that up? I don't think they wrote all their code from scratch.

If only I had something to contribute aside from ideas.

I still think Karsticles needs to put down a number for Hsien-Ko's speed upgrade instead of "three-fold". I have no clue what that means. I can't imagine anyone at Japan would know. He can use the bible as a guideline since there are three XF speed increases. I'll have an idea of how fast she'd go if he gives a percentage.

Will do:
*Air dash speed increased by 200%; aerial momentum retained after attack-canceling.

 

[Azure J]

I think it'd be nice if we formatted the character lists with pluses and minuses denoting buffs and nerfs. +/- would be to denote changes that tone down something as per the current meta/character but enhance another aspect of their game/move in question. It makes it all easier for readers to get immediately.

 

[Dahbomb]

I think it'd be nice if we formatted the character lists with pluses and minuses denoting buffs and nerfs. +/- would be to denote changes that tone down something as per the current meta/character but enhance another aspect of their game/move in question. It makes it all easier for readers to get immediately.

Yea that's definitely on the agenda. I can do that in a few minutes once the list is more finalized.

I approve of the Arthur change by the way.

 

[Karsticles]

Better?

Amaterasu:
+Bloom’s frame data is now the same as Dark Harmonizer.
+Minimum damage scaling on normals increased to 15%.
+Minimum damage scaling on hypers increased to 40%.
+Weapon Change startup reduced to 5 frames.
+Divine Instruments untechable knockdown time increased; follow-up combo possible.
+Veil of Mist no longer prevents meter generation for Amaterasu’s teammates.
+Thunder Edge is now +1 on block.
+Devout Beads Whip and Rosary Chain Combo Ichi, Ni, San, and Shi are now special cancelable.
+Rosary Chain Combo Ichi, Ni, San, and Shi all pull the opponent in closer on block or hit.
+Amaterasu is now able to block 5 frames after the player lets go of her air dash input; air dash ceases immediately when inputs are let go of.

Assists: Cold Star H, Power Slash H, Bloom

 

[ZeroCDR]

Did anyone else like the suggestion about Gold Armor input changing to DD+Atk+Atk to help against teleporters? I think it's a neat idea but not entirely necessary, sounds like Arthur is going to be a force already.

+1 on walking during Goddess Bracelet.

 

[Dahbomb]

Did anyone else like the suggestion about Gold Armor input changing to DD+Atk+Atk to help against teleporters? I think it's a neat idea but not entirely necessary, sounds like Arthur is going to be a force already.

+1 on walking during Goddess Bracelet.

I definitely liked it. Its not like Arthur has to worry about wave dashing and getting accidental hypers.

 

[ZeroCDR]

As an Arthur player I wouldn't object to the change, as long as you guys don't think it's too much more to add. He has gotten a lot already, I'd be stoked if these were to actually happen for him.

Edit:

Added, and I updated the posts with + and - signs. Let me know if I made any mistakes. Neutral changes were marked with a *.

Looks great

 

[Karsticles]

As an Arthur player I wouldn't object to the change, as long as you guys don't think it's too much more to add. He has gotten a lot already, I'd be stoked if these were to actually happen for him.

Added, and I updated the posts with + and - signs. Let me know if I made any mistakes. Neutral changes were marked with a *.

 

[Frantic]

Okay, this is my list of changes that I felt like scrutinizing. It mostly comes down to technical details over the some of the changes(and mostly has to deal with frames) and why they might not be completely reasonable changes with the way the game is currently. Also, I'm tired, so excuse any weirdness if there is any.


Arthur:
“s.M now starts up in 6 frames and has 8 active frames.”
I'm not really sure if the animation of the move will work with 6 frame startup and 8 active frames, or if it'll look really weird. Just throwing that out there.

Chris:
“Flamethrower damage reduced to 120,000 maximum.”
You probably need to change the way you word this one. The move does, currently, 171,200 damage from a clean hit. Reducing it to 120,000 maximum is non specific. You should be adjusting the base damage. So a change from 18k x 9-25 to something more like 15k x 9-25.

“Grenade Toss L +1 on block.”
That's 8 frames of recovery cut, so I'm not sure how it'd affect the move. I still think my suggestion of -3 on block(4 frames of recovery cut) + increased pushback is more reasonable.

“Gun Fire L no longer whiffs up close.”
Need to make some mention of 'increased lower hitbox' to get this proper. As it stands, the reason it whiffs is because most of the time if a character is crouching, the shotgun goes past their body and none of the pellets actually hit.

C.Viper:
“Optic Laser vertical hitbox decreased slightly.”
I'd specify upper vertical hitbox, since the lower hitbox is fine.

Deadpool:
“Katana-rama! hitstun significantly increased; now -3 on block.”
I wouldn't change the recovery of the move any. If the hitstun is being increased, there might be some really high damage, easy loops. I'm not completely sure without seeing it in action, but it's always better to be on the safe side.

Dr. Doom:
“Molecular Shield inputs can now be held to keep the shield active for more frames before releasing the rock; 30 frames max; startup decreased by 2 frames across the board; L version now -3 on block; M version now -1 on block; H version now +1 on block.”
Feels like there should be some mention on how many hits the held shield can hit for, but someone else can do that.

Dr. Strange:
“Spell of Vishanti hitstun increased; it is now always safe on hit.”
Again, I don't think increasing the hitstun here is a good idea. The only times I know SoV is unsafe on hit is if it's done in the air. Rather than increase the hitstun(which would have to be increased by a large margin to make a super jump height SoV safe) make it so that instead of falling prone, Strange recovers in the air for the same amount of recovery frames that the grounded variant does.

Firebrand:
“Dark Fire now causes a soft knockdown.”
Dark Fire props characters pretty high up, and it recovers pretty quickly. It might recover before they hit the ground, which could lead to some dumb stuff. Just bringing it up.

Frank West:
"Snapshot now -3 on hit, -15 on block."
This one can actually have the blockstun increased by ten to make it -17 on block. I'd say that's a fairly reasonable number for the move. On hit doesn't matter as much because you can increase the hitstun values just fine.

Ghost Rider:
“Hellfire Maelstrom invincible from frames 1-15, -5 on block, causes heavy pushback on block.”
I'm not really sure how the -5 on block will work. The move is inconsistent, and you can duck under a lot of it. For the final swing, it's easy to just chicken block it and even with the pushback most characters would have time to move forward and punish still. If you're reducing the recover to be -5 on block, that'd go from 50 to 13, and that opens up potential dumbness on hit. To make it -5 on block without straight up changing the recovery, the move would require a serious reworking to the point I'm not sure if it'd be viable in a balance patch.

Hawkeye:
“Ice Breaker M now causes a ground bounce on airborne opponents.”
Is that the Trick M > Ice Breaker?

Hsien-Ko:
“Henkyo Ki now +5 on block at close range; active frames increased by 50% (all levels).”
To get this, you'd have to cut the recovery for all three versions from 40/38/36 to 17 across the board. That's a pretty huge reduction. A little more than half in the heavy version's case. Considering she already has loops off this, all I'm seeing is potential infinites since – as far as I'm aware – Henkyo Ki causes a set amount of hitstun.

Iron-Man:
“Proton Cannon changed to +2 on hit, -5 on block; causes soft knockdown on all but the last hit.”
This one is really hard to change. It has 47 recovery, and it's... -47 on block. That'd mean the move would have 5 recovery frames. However, this is one you can actually increase the blockstun for since it only seems to have 3 or 4 frames of blockstun(weird, I know). It'd still probably come out to -27, but from there it'd be possible to adjust the recovery a little bit to be more reasonable. At the same time, I'm not really sure if it'd still be reasonable to reduce it to 25 recovery frames.

Rocket Raccoon:
“Bear Trap startup reduced to 15 frames.”
I'm a little wary about this one, since that move is pretty good... but I don't think it'll cause too many problems... other than perhaps some incredibly sped up startup animation.

Sentinel:
“Rocket Punch +0 on block; hitstun increased to Vanilla levels.”
This is actually one of the rare moves that has more than 23 frames of blockstun, having 25 instead. Still within a reasonable 'pushblock' range. To make it 0 on block, you'd have to have 20 frames of recovery shaved off. Considering vanilla hitstun allowed him to combo after it in a TAC, this will probably open him up to more loops and maybe potential infinites... I'm not totally sure, but I can see some dumbness here.

She-Hulk:
“Emerald Cannon hyper forces a wall bounce.”
It also shouldn't cross up.

Shuma-Gorath:
No Devitalization recovery reduction?

“Air dash movement distance increased by 100%; total time to completion unaltered.”
Additionally, you could make it so that the forward airdash has the same momentum property of the back airdash(where if you cancel it with a normal, it goes further).

“Mystic Stare’s recovery reduced by 15 frames across the board; charge time reduced to 30 frames; assist now shares the point version’s functionality.”
I'm not sure that's a great idea on the recovery front. It'd make the L version +25 on block, and the H version +15. That's kinda ridiculous. I'd say 5 frames, 10 tops.

“Mystic Ray recovery reduced by 10 frames across the board; charge time reduced to 30 frames; hitstun increased slightly on all versions; durability changed to 5x1 for L version, 10x1 for M version, 15x1 for H version; assist startup reduced to 47 frames.”
This one isn't even possible. Mystic Ray L recovers in 9 frames, and Mystic Ray H recovers in 3. It can't exactly have negative recovery... What exactly about them needs to be changed in that regard?

Spencer:
“f.H is now +1 on block.”
This one should be mostly fine with a strict blockstun increase. Reducing recovery would just give him s.L conversions off his overheads, and I feel like he shouldn't get that solo.

Super-Skrull:
“Inferno now -3 on block.”
I'm not sure how reasonable this is since the move has 14 frames of recovery as is. I think, more than anything, it's because he falls prone after those 14 frames of recovery. I suppose you could fix it so that he can block as he's falling, but I'm not sure what the framedata would be on that as far as advantage on block goes.

“Brutal Pile Bunker is now -2 on block.”
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo-

Thor:
Honestly, I feel like Thor's normals should recover a lot faster. His cr.L has as much recovery as Dante's Stinger. It's terrible.

Trish:
“Trick “Hopscotch” travel time and hitstun increased; now OTGs.”
Still feel like the histun increase should be axed.

Vergil:

Throw the poor guy a bone. Give him

+ Devil Trigger Judgment Cut now hits OTG
+ Can manually fire each projectile of Sword Storm with ATK+S as with Blistering Swords.

Two buffs from my old changelist to give him something since outside the Lunar Phase and Rising Sun change, he got all nerfs.

 

[Dahbomb]

Frantic any move that is being changed on block we are just changing the block stun NOT the recovery. The recovery is only changed when specified.

So no way will Proton Cannon have like 5 frames of recovery. What's being changed for it is hit stun (so you don't get punished on hit from it) and block stun (so its not -47 or whatever). Recovery is still the same.

DT Judment Cuts hitting OTG is too big of a change. It will allow him to combo off ground throws solo. That utility hyper does not need any more buffs.

The Storm Sword change is interesting though.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Made a post with a bunch of stuff cut, mostly things with the word "slightly" in them because they're by definition not significant. I also threw in some rewords, consolidated the assist changes into the lists and fixed typos on move names to fit it all in one post.

I also removed things that were kinda dumb and probably should be changed, but don't significantly affect the game, like the random 2 frames of invincibility on devil trigger. Also removed cases of redundancy like oil bomb refreshing itself since it gets activated by itself anyway by another change.

All in all, I think most people would be happy if this was the only list they saw, and most people probably won't notice many of my changes without also looking at Karst's list. I cut out about 20% or so which is a good start point for no significant changes to the original list.

 

[Dahbomb]

The random 2 frames of invincibility on DT is actually quite significant. Vergil can dodge Might Punish with it as well as Gimlet.

You removed Lightning persisting after Buster cancel... LOL! That shit is 100% an unintended feature of the character, it would be removed anyway if there was a patch. No way is that an insignificant change.

 

[Karsticles]

Okay, this is my list of changes that I felt like scrutinizing. It mostly comes down to technical details over the some of the changes(and mostly has to deal with frames) and why they might not be completely reasonable changes with the way the game is currently. Also, I'm tired, so excuse any weirdness if there is any.


Arthur:
“s.M now starts up in 6 frames and has 8 active frames.”
I'm not really sure if the animation of the move will work with 6 frame startup and 8 active frames, or if it'll look really weird. Just throwing that out there.

Chris:
“Flamethrower damage reduced to 120,000 maximum.”
You probably need to change the way you word this one. The move does, currently, 171,200 damage from a clean hit. Reducing it to 120,000 maximum is non specific. You should be adjusting the base damage. So a change from 18k x 9-25 to something more like 15k x 9-25.

“Grenade Toss L +1 on block.”
That's 8 frames of recovery cut, so I'm not sure how it'd affect the move. I still think my suggestion of -3 on block(4 frames of recovery cut) + increased pushback is more reasonable.

“Gun Fire L no longer whiffs up close.”
Need to make some mention of 'increased lower hitbox' to get this proper. As it stands, the reason it whiffs is because most of the time if a character is crouching, the shotgun goes past their body and none of the pellets actually hit.

C.Viper:
“Optic Laser vertical hitbox decreased slightly.”
I'd specify upper vertical hitbox, since the lower hitbox is fine.

Deadpool:
“Katana-rama! hitstun significantly increased; now -3 on block.”
I wouldn't change the recovery of the move any. If the hitstun is being increased, there might be some really high damage, easy loops. I'm not completely sure without seeing it in action, but it's always better to be on the safe side.

Dr. Doom:
“Molecular Shield inputs can now be held to keep the shield active for more frames before releasing the rock; 30 frames max; startup decreased by 2 frames across the board; L version now -3 on block; M version now -1 on block; H version now +1 on block.”
Feels like there should be some mention on how many hits the held shield can hit for, but someone else can do that.

Dr. Strange:
“Spell of Vishanti hitstun increased; it is now always safe on hit.”
Again, I don't think increasing the hitstun here is a good idea. The only times I know SoV is unsafe on hit is if it's done in the air. Rather than increase the hitstun(which would have to be increased by a large margin to make a super jump height SoV safe) make it so that instead of falling prone, Strange recovers in the air for the same amount of recovery frames that the grounded variant does.

Firebrand:
“Dark Fire now causes a soft knockdown.”
Dark Fire props characters pretty high up, and it recovers pretty quickly. It might recover before they hit the ground, which could lead to some dumb stuff. Just bringing it up.

Frank West:
"Snapshot now -3 on hit, -15 on block."
This one can actually have the blockstun increased by ten to make it -17 on block. I'd say that's a fairly reasonable number for the move. On hit doesn't matter as much because you can increase the hitstun values just fine.

Ghost Rider:
“Hellfire Maelstrom invincible from frames 1-15, -5 on block, causes heavy pushback on block.”
I'm not really sure how the -5 on block will work. The move is inconsistent, and you can duck under a lot of it. For the final swing, it's easy to just chicken block it and even with the pushback most characters would have time to move forward and punish still. If you're reducing the recover to be -5 on block, that'd go from 50 to 13, and that opens up potential dumbness on hit. To make it -5 on block without straight up changing the recovery, the move would require a serious reworking to the point I'm not sure if it'd be viable in a balance patch.

Hawkeye:
“Ice Breaker M now causes a ground bounce on airborne opponents.”
Is that the Trick M > Ice Breaker?

Hsien-Ko:
“Henkyo Ki now +5 on block at close range; active frames increased by 50% (all levels).”
To get this, you'd have to cut the recovery for all three versions from 40/38/36 to 17 across the board. That's a pretty huge reduction. A little more than half in the heavy version's case. Considering she already has loops off this, all I'm seeing is potential infinites since – as far as I'm aware – Henkyo Ki causes a set amount of hitstun.

Iron-Man:
“Proton Cannon changed to +2 on hit, -5 on block; causes soft knockdown on all but the last hit.”
This one is really hard to change. It has 47 recovery, and it's... -47 on block. That'd mean the move would have 5 recovery frames. However, this is one you can actually increase the blockstun for since it only seems to have 3 or 4 frames of blockstun(weird, I know). It'd still probably come out to -27, but from there it'd be possible to adjust the recovery a little bit to be more reasonable. At the same time, I'm not really sure if it'd still be reasonable to reduce it to 25 recovery frames.

Rocket Raccoon:
“Bear Trap startup reduced to 15 frames.”
I'm a little wary about this one, since that move is pretty good... but I don't think it'll cause too many problems... other than perhaps some incredibly sped up startup animation.

Sentinel:
“Rocket Punch +0 on block; hitstun increased to Vanilla levels.”
This is actually one of the rare moves that has more than 23 frames of blockstun, having 25 instead. Still within a reasonable 'pushblock' range. To make it 0 on block, you'd have to have 20 frames of recovery shaved off. Considering vanilla hitstun allowed him to combo after it in a TAC, this will probably open him up to more loops and maybe potential infinites... I'm not totally sure, but I can see some dumbness here.

She-Hulk:
“Emerald Cannon hyper forces a wall bounce.”
It also shouldn't cross up.

Shuma-Gorath:
No Devitalization recovery reduction?

“Air dash movement distance increased by 100%; total time to completion unaltered.”
Additionally, you could make it so that the forward airdash has the same momentum property of the back airdash(where if you cancel it with a normal, it goes further).

“Mystic Stare’s recovery reduced by 15 frames across the board; charge time reduced to 30 frames; assist now shares the point version’s functionality.”
I'm not sure that's a great idea on the recovery front. It'd make the L version +25 on block, and the H version +15. That's kinda ridiculous. I'd say 5 frames, 10 tops.

“Mystic Ray recovery reduced by 10 frames across the board; charge time reduced to 30 frames; hitstun increased slightly on all versions; durability changed to 5x1 for L version, 10x1 for M version, 15x1 for H version; assist startup reduced to 47 frames.”
This one isn't even possible. Mystic Ray L recovers in 9 frames, and Mystic Ray H recovers in 3. It can't exactly have negative recovery... What exactly about them needs to be changed in that regard?

Spencer:
“f.H is now +1 on block.”
This one should be mostly fine with a strict blockstun increase. Reducing recovery would just give him s.L conversions off his overheads, and I feel like he shouldn't get that solo.

Super-Skrull:
“Inferno now -3 on block.”
I'm not sure how reasonable this is since the move has 14 frames of recovery as is. I think, more than anything, it's because he falls prone after those 14 frames of recovery. I suppose you could fix it so that he can block as he's falling, but I'm not sure what the framedata would be on that as far as advantage on block goes.

“Brutal Pile Bunker is now -2 on block.”
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo-

Thor:
Honestly, I feel like Thor's normals should recover a lot faster. His cr.L has as much recovery as Dante's Stinger. It's terrible.

Trish:
“Trick “Hopscotch” travel time and hitstun increased; now OTGs.”
Still feel like the histun increase should be axed.

Vergil:

Throw the poor guy a bone. Give him

+ Devil Trigger Judgment Cut now hits OTG
+ Can manually fire each projectile of Sword Storm with ATK+S as with Blistering Swords.

Two buffs from my old changelist to give him something since outside the Lunar Phase and Rising Sun change, he got all nerfs.

Like Dahbomb said, any change in frames advantage is a change in blockstun/hitstun unless specified otherwise. On that note, the Shuma-Gorath Mystic Ray change is a bit redundant, and I'll change that. I'll provide feedback on the rest of this in a bit.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73811818]Made a post with a bunch of stuff cut, mostly things with the word "slightly" in them because they're by definition not significant. I also threw in some rewords, consolidated the assist changes into the lists and fixed typos on move names to fit it all in one post.[/URL]

I also removed things that were kinda dumb and probably should be changed, but don't significantly affect the game, like the random 2 frames of invincibility on devil trigger. Also removed cases of redundancy like oil bomb refreshing itself since it gets activated by itself anyway by another change.

All in all, I think most people would be happy if this was the only list they saw, and most people probably won't notice many of my changes without also looking at Karst's list. I cut out about 20% or so which is a good start point for no significant changes to the original list.[/QUOTE]
Can you just note the changes you want made like Frantic did? That will take a long time to comb through and compare to the existing list. Also, the "slightly" changes are often important. I'd like a list of what you want changed instead of a new list.

 

["God's Beard!"]

The random 2 frames of invincibility on DT is actually quite significant. Vergil can dodge Might Punish with it as well as Gimlet.

Mighty Punish is 0 frames. Nothing he does will dodge it, unless it was a random devil trigger that happened to have their two frames lined up.

And I was under the impression that lots of hypers could dodge gimlet because gimlet has weird active frames.

Can you just note the changes you want made like Frantic did? That will take a long time to comb through and compare to the existing list. Also, the "slightly" changes are often important.

The ones that were important I reworded.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73813633]The ones that were important I reworded.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps you misunderstood. I am not going through your massive changelog and comparing it to our current one line-by-line to see what you changed. Please put it in a more reasonable format like Frantic did.

 

[Frantic]

Frantic any move that is being changed on block we are just changing the block stun NOT the recovery. The recovery is only changed when specified.

So no way will Proton Cannon have like 5 frames of recovery. What's being changed for it is hit stun (so you don't get punished on hit from it) and block stun (so its not -47 or whatever). Recovery is still the same.

The problem is that moves have an average 23 blockstun because pushblock has 21 or so frames of blockstun. By making a move like PC -5, you're adding 47 frames of blockstun, and on pushblock it becomes -26 anyways because with pushblock you recover in 21 frames. It's doesn't 'solve' the problem because the way the game is designed doesn't allow for enormous amounts of blockstun because pushblock removes it all. To make PC truly -5 on block, you have to reduce recovery.

 

[Dahbomb]

The problem is that moves have an average 23 blockstun because pushblock has 21 or so frames of blockstun. By making a move like PC -5, you're adding 47 frames of blockstun, and on pushblock it becomes -26 anyways because with pushblock you recover in 21 frames. It's doesn't 'solve' the problem because the way the game is designed doesn't allow for enormous amounts of blockstun because pushblock removes it all. To make PC truly -5 on block, you have to reduce recovery.

Alright I will look at the math again and formulate a better frame data for PC.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Perhaps you misunderstood. I am not going through your massive changelog and comparing it to our current one line-by-line to see what you changed. Please put it in a more reasonable format like Frantic did.

Maybe later. The majority of the changes are stuff like fixing typos or changing phrases about time duration to relate to frames. It'll take me just as long a post to make a changelist comparing them.

I have done it in a live match where a Thor XF me during a Spiral Sword block string. He did Mighty Punish and I did Devil Trigger on reaction to the XFC which caused the Mighty Punish to whiff. That's like Thor's one big gambit against Vergil and it's negated by those 2 frames.

A lucky timing, congratulations. Either way, Thor bodies Vergil with our changes to mighty strike now.

edit: nevermind, vergil's frames are different than dante's

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73816173]Maybe later. The majority of the changes are stuff like fixing typos or changing phrases about time duration to relate to frames. It'll take me just as long a post to make a changelist comparing them.[/QUOTE]
I look forward to it.

 

[Dahbomb]

New Proton Cannon frame data:

*Recovery reduced from 47 to 25
*Revovery frame change automatically changes the block advantage from -47 to -25 (you don't need to add this into the changelog this is just the logical reasoning for the next point)
*Advantage on block is -5 (so 20 frames of additional block stun)
*Advantage on hit can be anything as long as I am not punished for landing the hyper (lol)

This move never ceases to amaze me in its shittiness.


I am going to try and fix some other moves too like Sentinel's Rocket Punch.

 

[Karsticles]

New Proton Cannon frame data:

*Recovery reduced from 47 to 25
*Revovery frame change automatically changes the block advantage from -47 to -25 (you don't need to add this into the changelog this is just the logical reasoning for the next point)
*Advantage on block is -5 (so 20 frames of additional block stun)
*Advantage on hit can be anything as long as I am not punished for landing the hyper (lol)

This move never ceases to amaze me in its shittiness.

If this satisfies Frantic, I'll add it in.

 

[Dahbomb]

Sentinel Rocket Punch has 10 frames less recovery now (down from 38 to 28).

Frame advantage already changed from -20 to -10. You can add about 8 frames of block stun to the move to make it -2. At 0 on block that is just opening up the move for some crazy combos. It would still be safe from 99% of moves in the game even throws most likely.

In terms of neutral game, reducing Rocket Punch's recovery is way better than reducing his block stun because now if you whiff you aren't sitting there floating for 38 frames.

 

[Frantic]

If this satisfies Frantic, I'll add it in.

lol, you make me sound like some sort of tyrant!

But yes, that's more or less what I had in mind with the move. It covers both the on hit, and the on block.

 

[Karsticles]

lol, you make me sound like some sort of tyrant!

But yes, that's more or less what I had in mind with the move. It covers both the on hit, and the on block.

Anyone who wants to do a good job is a bit of a tyrant.

 

[Luis]

X-23:
+Angle Slice charged version startup time reduced to 30 frames and allows for a s.L link afterward; cannot be canceled into Weapon X Prime; non-charged version now OTGs with minimal hitstun (can connect Rage Trigger); assist version comes out in 35 frames.
+Rage Trigger now causes a soft knockdown.
+Weapon X Prime causes a hard knockdown.
+Slight hitstun increase on aerial normals.
+Untechable time after air and ground throws increased.
+M/H Talon cancelable into Talon L. If canceled through other Talons it causes a hard knockdown, other wise it stays as it is (ie. doing Talon L after Crescent Scythe is the same as it is now)
+Health changed to 900,000.
+X-23 is considered airborne for all frames of her Mirage Feint moves.
+Talon Attack M hitstun increased.
+X-23 is considered airborne for all frames of her Mirage Feint moves.

Assists: Crescent Scythe H, Ankle Slice, Neck Slice (Charged)

As per request heres my input on removing some "fat" and reducing her change list to just 5.

Remove:

+Health changed to 900,000.

-With the tools she already has now, her health is justified. Giving her all these tools + a health boost? In my opinion unnecessary.



+Rage Trigger now causes a soft knockdown.

-Sure it would open up DHC options but I like that its a unique super that actually leaves them in a superjump height position and leaves you the option to pursue them in the air or with enough time to have a setup on the ground for when they do finally touch down.



+M/H Talon cancelable into Talon L. If canceled through other Talons it causes a hard knockdown, other wise it stays as it is (ie. doing Talon L after Crescent Scythe is the same as it is now)

- I really love this update but i feel like this would make her a brain dead overpowered character like Wolverine. This update is so good that even if just gave her this update alone, it would be too much already. I would really like this in but my moral compass is telling me to speak out on it.



+X-23 is considered airborne for all frames of her Mirage Feint moves.

- Could someone clarify what this would mean for her? Doesn't it already operate like that?



+j.M hitbox increased slightly.

- I was the advocate for this because its annoying having this whiff when you're practically next to the person and because its sometimes needed to adjust the super height hitconfirm combo but because you're already buffing the Talon Attack M hitstun along with all aerial normals, It wont be needed.

So this:

X-23:
+Angle Slice charged version startup time reduced to 30 frames and allows for a s.L link afterward; cannot be canceled into Weapon X Prime; non-charged version now OTGs with minimal hitstun (can connect Rage Trigger); assist version comes out in 35 frames.
+Weapon X Prime causes a hard knockdown.
+Slight hitstun increase on aerial normals.
+Untechable time after air and ground throws increased.
+Talon Attack M hitstun increased.
Assists: Crescent Scythe H, Ankle Slice, Neck Slice (Charged)

 

[Dahbomb]

Ok so how much hit stun are we giving Sentinel Rocket Punch? Vanilla levels? Would like to see the frame data on that move from Vanilla.

If X23 doesn't get a health boost then neither should Felicia and Jill. Jill especially has a bunch of great tools now. Honestly this whole non sense started when Jill was buffed to 950K health which was kinda high for her.

+M/H Talon cancelable into Talon L. If canceled through other Talons it causes a hard knockdown, other wise it stays as it is (ie. doing Talon L after Crescent Scythe is the same as it is now)

- I really love this update but i feel like this would make her a brain dead overpowered character like Wolverine. This update is so good that even if just gave her this update alone, it would be too much already. I would really like this in but my moral compass is telling me to speak out on it.

Without an option select ground bounce dive kick she would never be as derp as Wolverine. Wolverine still has better normals than her. She really needs a good way to confirm at SJ height, this is a great solution to her problem IMO.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I think the air fireball changes on Phoenix and Strange need to be removed. That was Capcom's #1 priority nerf on Phoenix because it ruined so many matchups. We shouldn't bring it back.

Also, Sentinel's rocket punch probably shouldn't get any buff if we're buffing Sent's flight so much. He's gonna have some batshit combos already getting two flights per jump and a faster jH.

And X-23 has better ground normals than Wolverine.

 

[ZeroCDR]

Jill especially has a bunch of great tools now.

All this talk of tyrants, let's also give her back that awful summoning move from MvC2.

Spoiler

never again

 

[Karsticles]

Ok so how much hit stun are we giving Sentinel Rocket Punch? Vanilla levels? Would like to see the frame data on that move from Vanilla.

If X23 doesn't get a health boost then neither should Felicia and Jill. Jill especially has a bunch of great tools now. Honestly this whole non sense started when Jill was buffed to 950K health which was kinda high for her.

I threw away the Vanilla guide when I moved to cut down on box space. I thought "When will I ever need this again, anyway?" :-(

As per request heres my input on removing some "fat" and reducing her change list to just 5.

Remove:

+Health changed to 900,000.

-With the tools she already has now, her health is justified. Giving her all these tools + a health boost? In my opinion unnecessary.



+Rage Trigger now causes a soft knockdown.

-Sure it would open up DHC options but I like that its a unique super that actually leaves them in a superjump height position and leaves you the option to pursue them in the air or with enough time to have a setup on the ground for when they do finally touch down.



+M/H Talon cancelable into Talon L. If canceled through other Talons it causes a hard knockdown, other wise it stays as it is (ie. doing Talon L after Crescent Scythe is the same as it is now)

- I really love this update but i feel like this would make her a brain dead overpowered character like Wolverine. This update is so good that even if just gave her this update alone, it would be too much already. I would really like this in but my moral compass is telling me to speak out on it.



+X-23 is considered airborne for all frames of her Mirage Feint moves.

- Could someone clarify what this would mean for her? Doesn't it already operate like that?



+j.M hitbox increased slightly.

- I was the advocate for this because its annoying having this whiff when you're practically next to the person and because its sometimes needed to adjust the super height hitconfirm combo but because you're already buffing the Talon Attack M hitstun along with all aerial normals, It wont be needed.

So this:

I don't think we'll be reducing the changes to 5/character, but I do appreciate the feedback. You give great reasons for your changes, so if you know any other characters well, I'd love to know your thoughts.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73821718]I think the air fireball changes on Phoenix and Strange need to be removed. That was Capcom's #1 priority nerf on Phoenix because it ruined so many matchups. We shouldn't bring it back.

Also, Sentinel's rocket punch probably shouldn't get any buff if we're buffing Sent's flight so much. He's gonna have some batshit combos already getting two flights per jump and a faster jH.

And X-23 has better ground normals than Wolverine.[/QUOTE]
I'd like for Rocket Punch to be safer so it can be used in the neutral more. It's an interesting move. I still miss the MvC2 version, but that would require reanimation.

Phoenix only ruined characters because she could spam the qcf.H fireball at superjump height and be untouchable. By limiting it to 1 projectile, I think it's more balanced. There are also a lot more anti-air options in the game now.

I'm curious to hear your logic behind denying the Dr. Strange buff. I'm honestly a little unsettled by it too, but I could use some convincing as to why it's problematic. Maybe only make his projectiles usable without him falling prone while he's in Flight?

X-23 does have better ground normals than Wolverine, and her goddamn s.L multi-hits so it shreds armor like nuts.

 

[Dahbomb]

Sentinel's Rocket Punch in MVC2 was insanely fast compared to this RP.

I think we should probably keep the hit stun the same as it is in UMVC3 but improve the recovery. So essentially we would actually be subtracting hit stun from the new RP to keep it the same on hit.

If we revert the X23 health buff then the rushdown characters HP would look like this:

X23 - 850K
Felicia - 900K
Jill - 950K
Wolverine - 950K

I think Felicia should remain at 900K but Jill should be at 900K.

X-23 does have better ground normals than Wolverine, and her goddamn s.L multi-hits so it shreds armor like nuts.

Wolverine's st.L (4 frame with that crazy hit box) and st.H are godly normals. It's a big part of why he is so god damn good.

 

[Karsticles]

Sentinel's Rocket Punch in MVC2 was insanely fast compared to this RP.

I think we should probably keep the hit stun the same as it is in UMVC3 but improve the recovery. So essentially we would actually be subtracting hit stun from the new RP to keep it the same on hit.

But then he can't convert into HSF sometimes via Rocket Punch, and IMO that's a big problem. Sometimes you can Rocket Punch OTG into HSF right off a throw and the HSF still whiffs!

I'd like an argument as to why Wolverine deserves more health than those other characters.

 

[FSLink]

I'm curious to hear your logic behind denying the Dr. Strange buff. I'm honestly a little unsettled by it too, but I could use some convincing as to why it's problematic. Maybe only make his projectiles usable without him falling prone while he's in Flight?

This would be a good idea, Strange's flight is underutilized outside of some FoF loop extension, so it'd be good giving it more use...

 

[Dahbomb]

I'd like an argument as to why Wolverine deserves more health than those other characters.

Because he has less tools and mobility options than all those characters. That's pretty much the basic logic for determining health on characters. Wolverine didn't get any substantial buff to his point game where as the other 3 characters got 9-10 buffs.

But then he can't convert into HSF sometimes via Rocket Punch, and IMO that's a big problem. Sometimes you can Rocket Punch OTG into HSF right off a throw and the HSF still whiffs!

This is why we need the Vanilla guide. Vanilla RP had enough hit stun to convert RP into HSF no matter what. Ultimate RP has just enough hit stun to get HSF off throws but not after combos. I think if it was some where in between it would be fine, maybe just add like 5 more frames of hit stuns to UMVC RP and lock it in.

 

[Karsticles]

Because he has less tools and mobility options than all those characters. That's pretty much the basic logic for determining health on characters. Wolverine didn't get any substantial buff to his point game where as the other 3 characters got 9-10 buffs.

This is why we need the Vanilla guide. Vanilla RP had enough hit stun to convert RP into HSF no matter what. Ultimate RP has just enough hit stun to get HSF off throws but not after combos. I think if it was some where in between it would be fine, maybe just add like 5 more frames of hit stuns to UMVC RP and lock it in.

Frantic and GB are the supposed keepers of the frame data.

Do you honestly see Jill beating Wolverine out now? Or Felicia, etc.?

 

[Dahbomb]

Frantic and GB are the supposed keepers of the frame data.

Do you honestly see Jill beating Wolverine out now? Or Felicia, etc.?

You didn't ask me if Wolverine was better than those characters... you asked me if he deserved to have more health.

I don't know who would be better really among those characters but I am just talking strictly about on paper toolset.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I'll sell you my extra vanilla guide karst :3

Phoenix only ruined characters because she could spam the qcf.H fireball at superjump height and be untouchable. By limiting it to 1 projectile, I think it's more balanced. There are also a lot more anti-air options in the game now.

I'm curious to hear your logic behind denying the Dr. Strange buff. I'm honestly a little unsettled by it too, but I could use some convincing as to why it's problematic. Maybe only make his projectiles usable without him falling prone while he's in Flight?

The problem wasn't that she could spam them, it's that she could super jump, throw out the tracking fireball then teleport to start her offense then repeat that over and over. It's the exact same thing Strange would have. They're extremely hard to prevent solo combo breakers attached to 50/50 mixups.

 

[Karsticles]

You didn't ask me if Wolverine was better than those characters... you asked me if he deserved to have more health.

I don't know who would be better really among those characters but I am just talking strictly about on paper toolset.

Then what use is your new tier list, Dahbomb?!

In all seriousness, health should always correspond to how much of a beating a character will take to get in. I think Wolverine is still better at getting in than those other characters.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73825293]I'll sell you my extra vanilla guide karst :3[/quote]
Hahahaha. Then you can't be keeper of the frame data. ;-)

The problem wasn't that she could spam them, it's that she could super jump, throw out the tracking fireball then teleport to start her offense then repeat that over and over. It's the exact same thing Strange would have. They're extremely hard to prevent solo combo breakers attached to 50/50 mixups.

How would you feel about Dr. Strange being able to do it after flight? And what if Phoenix remains as she is in the patch notes, but we nerf the duration time of TK Shot H so it blows up easier? I recall someone mentioning how OP that is in some matchups, but we never did anything about it.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Also, I thought that Dahbomb and I agreed that Skrull doesn't deserve a tracking assist.

How would you feel about Dr. Strange being able to do it after flight? And what if Phoenix remains as she is in the patch notes, but we nerf the duration time of TK Shot H so it blows up easier? I recall someone mentioning how OP that is in some matchups, but we never did anything about it.

Basically, having a tracking fireball and a teleport is a big no-no at Capcom. It's a line drawn, harder in the sand than slides and invincible assists. And I'm still undecided on canceling Strider's slide with Form B, as much as I want it.

 

[Dahbomb]

In all seriousness, health should always correspond to how much of a beating a character will take to get in. I think Wolverine is still better at getting in than those other characters.

I take hit box size, mobility options and overall toolset into equation.

Honestly Jill gets in way better than Wolverine (especially now with an air OK improved Arrow kick) but Wolverine stays in better. Jill is also harder to control. Wolverine still has to keep burning meter to stay in or keep calling assists. Felicia has many ways to negate advance guard but she struggles to get in first.. which was buffed by giving her a better "Roll" and a better ground dash, she already has a way better throw game than Wolverine. X23 has better air mobility than Wolverine, a better ground dash, a smaller hit box and a better wall jump. We buffed her throw game now.

Jill with a Mad Beast option is basically Wolverine now. She can burn a meter to stay in and be super sped up to keep applying pressure. She would be unable to block but that's not an issue when the other person is blocking too... if she opens them up the hyper activation paid for itself so to speak.

They are all virtually in the same tier bracket now on my tier list but the difference among them comes in execution, health and number of tools. Wolverine is easier to play and has more health but has less tools. The rest have more tools and are harder to play. Felicia is in the middle of them.

Also, I thought that Dahbomb and I agreed that Skrull doesn't deserve a tracking assist.

Well we made a lot of modifcations to Meteor Smash to make it not stupid.

*Hit box size reduced
*Causes no bounce only soft knockdown
*No OTG property
*Does not hit overhead

This basically now becomes a worse Vajra.

 

["God's Beard!"]

But does Skrull deserve it? People are gonna hate the game with all these new annoying assists. The two already in the game piss people off to no end.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73827223]But does Skrull deserve it? People are gonna hate the game with all these new annoying assists. The two already in the game piss people off to no end.[/QUOTE]
I don't get this line of thinking. The game has a lot of annoying assists as-is. It only makes sense to either:
1) Remove all of the annoying assists; or:
2) Provide more annoying assists to enhance team diversity.

No one has suggested 1).

 

[Dahbomb]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73827223]But does Skrull deserve it? People are gonna hate the game with all these new annoying assists. The two already in the game piss people off to no end.[/QUOTE]
Honestly speaking no but what does it mean that he "deserves it"? I personally think if one character has even one great assist that is enough. We gave him L Tenderizer which is like a Cold Shots that OTGs.

People get pissed off by a lot of stuff in the game as it is but Missiles and Vajra have particular attributes to them that people hate a lot. Vajra leads into hard knockdown into a full combo (which Meteor Smash will not provide) and Missiles combo break frequently. We nerfed the missiles in combo breaking ability and we slightly nerfed the time you get to combo off of the hard knockdown from Vajra.

 

[Karsticles]

Okay, this is my list of changes that I felt like scrutinizing. It mostly comes down to technical details over the some of the changes(and mostly has to deal with frames) and why they might not be completely reasonable changes with the way the game is currently. Also, I'm tired, so excuse any weirdness if there is any.


Arthur:
“s.M now starts up in 6 frames and has 8 active frames.”
I'm not really sure if the animation of the move will work with 6 frame startup and 8 active frames, or if it'll look really weird. Just throwing that out there.

I think it will be fine.

Chris:
“Flamethrower damage reduced to 120,000 maximum.”
You probably need to change the way you word this one. The move does, currently, 171,200 damage from a clean hit. Reducing it to 120,000 maximum is non specific. You should be adjusting the base damage. So a change from 18k x 9-25 to something more like 15k x 9-25.

Good point; would you figure out the correct math?

“Grenade Toss L +1 on block.”
That's 8 frames of recovery cut, so I'm not sure how it'd affect the move. I still think my suggestion of -3 on block(4 frames of recovery cut) + increased pushback is more reasonable.

More hit stun.

“Gun Fire L no longer whiffs up close.”
Need to make some mention of 'increased lower hitbox' to get this proper. As it stands, the reason it whiffs is because most of the time if a character is crouching, the shotgun goes past their body and none of the pellets actually hit.

Changed.

C.Viper:
“Optic Laser vertical hitbox decreased slightly.”
I'd specify upper vertical hitbox, since the lower hitbox is fine.

Done.

Deadpool:
“Katana-rama! hitstun significantly increased; now -3 on block.”
I wouldn't change the recovery of the move any. If the hitstun is being increased, there might be some really high damage, easy loops. I'm not completely sure without seeing it in action, but it's always better to be on the safe side.

I'd like for it to be usable as an anti-air. I doubt it will be loopable; it causes a lot of knockback.

Dr. Doom:
“Molecular Shield inputs can now be held to keep the shield active for more frames before releasing the rock; 30 frames max; startup decreased by 2 frames across the board; L version now -3 on block; M version now -1 on block; H version now +1 on block.”
Feels like there should be some mention on how many hits the held shield can hit for, but someone else can do that.

I'm fine with Capcom determining this.

Dr. Strange:
“Spell of Vishanti hitstun increased; it is now always safe on hit.”
Again, I don't think increasing the hitstun here is a good idea. The only times I know SoV is unsafe on hit is if it's done in the air. Rather than increase the hitstun(which would have to be increased by a large margin to make a super jump height SoV safe) make it so that instead of falling prone, Strange recovers in the air for the same amount of recovery frames that the grounded variant does.

Good idea.

Firebrand:
“Dark Fire now causes a soft knockdown.”
Dark Fire props characters pretty high up, and it recovers pretty quickly. It might recover before they hit the ground, which could lead to some dumb stuff. Just bringing it up.

Oh, hm. Good point. I'll revert it back to increased hitstun.

Frank West:
"Snapshot now -3 on hit, -15 on block."
This one can actually have the blockstun increased by ten to make it -17 on block. I'd say that's a fairly reasonable number for the move. On hit doesn't matter as much because you can increase the hitstun values just fine.

Why?

Ghost Rider:
“Hellfire Maelstrom invincible from frames 1-15, -5 on block, causes heavy pushback on block.”
I'm not really sure how the -5 on block will work. The move is inconsistent, and you can duck under a lot of it. For the final swing, it's easy to just chicken block it and even with the pushback most characters would have time to move forward and punish still. If you're reducing the recover to be -5 on block, that'd go from 50 to 13, and that opens up potential dumbness on hit. To make it -5 on block without straight up changing the recovery, the move would require a serious reworking to the point I'm not sure if it'd be viable in a balance patch.

More blockstun?

Hawkeye:
“Ice Breaker M now causes a ground bounce on airborne opponents.”
Is that the Trick M > Ice Breaker?

Ask GB for clarification. It's his change.

Hsien-Ko:
“Henkyo Ki now +5 on block at close range; active frames increased by 50% (all levels).”
To get this, you'd have to cut the recovery for all three versions from 40/38/36 to 17 across the board. That's a pretty huge reduction. A little more than half in the heavy version's case. Considering she already has loops off this, all I'm seeing is potential infinites since – as far as I'm aware – Henkyo Ki causes a set amount of hitstun.

More blockstun?

Iron-Man:
“Proton Cannon changed to +2 on hit, -5 on block; causes soft knockdown on all but the last hit.”
This one is really hard to change. It has 47 recovery, and it's... -47 on block. That'd mean the move would have 5 recovery frames. However, this is one you can actually increase the blockstun for since it only seems to have 3 or 4 frames of blockstun(weird, I know). It'd still probably come out to -27, but from there it'd be possible to adjust the recovery a little bit to be more reasonable. At the same time, I'm not really sure if it'd still be reasonable to reduce it to 25 recovery frames.

Addressed.

Rocket Raccoon:
“Bear Trap startup reduced to 15 frames.”
I'm a little wary about this one, since that move is pretty good... but I don't think it'll cause too many problems... other than perhaps some incredibly sped up startup animation.

It's a small change to help with combo consistency.

Sentinel:
“Rocket Punch +0 on block; hitstun increased to Vanilla levels.”
This is actually one of the rare moves that has more than 23 frames of blockstun, having 25 instead. Still within a reasonable 'pushblock' range. To make it 0 on block, you'd have to have 20 frames of recovery shaved off. Considering vanilla hitstun allowed him to combo after it in a TAC, this will probably open him up to more loops and maybe potential infinites... I'm not totally sure, but I can see some dumbness here.

What if I just said "Rocket Punch -5 on block; hitstun increased significantly."?

What move has the most hitstun in the entire game?

She-Hulk:
“Emerald Cannon hyper forces a wall bounce.”
It also shouldn't cross up.

Why does this change actually matter? I've never heard reasoning for it.

Shuma-Gorath:
No Devitalization recovery reduction?

Not that I care about.

“Air dash movement distance increased by 100%; total time to completion unaltered.”
Additionally, you could make it so that the forward airdash has the same momentum property of the back airdash(where if you cancel it with a normal, it goes further).

Added.

“Mystic Stare’s recovery reduced by 15 frames across the board; charge time reduced to 30 frames; assist now shares the point version’s functionality.”
I'm not sure that's a great idea on the recovery front. It'd make the L version +25 on block, and the H version +15. That's kinda ridiculous. I'd say 5 frames, 10 tops.

K.

“Mystic Ray recovery reduced by 10 frames across the board; charge time reduced to 30 frames; hitstun increased slightly on all versions; durability changed to 5x1 for L version, 10x1 for M version, 15x1 for H version; assist startup reduced to 47 frames.”
This one isn't even possible. Mystic Ray L recovers in 9 frames, and Mystic Ray H recovers in 3. It can't exactly have negative recovery... What exactly about them needs to be changed in that regard?

I removed the recovery change; hitstun increase is fine.

Spencer:
“f.H is now +1 on block.”
This one should be mostly fine with a strict blockstun increase. Reducing recovery would just give him s.L conversions off his overheads, and I feel like he shouldn't get that solo.

Indeed.

Super-Skrull:
“Inferno now -3 on block.”
I'm not sure how reasonable this is since the move has 14 frames of recovery as is. I think, more than anything, it's because he falls prone after those 14 frames of recovery. I suppose you could fix it so that he can block as he's falling, but I'm not sure what the framedata would be on that as far as advantage on block goes.

I'll make an edit:
+Says “He loves you!” again during Inferno; Inferno now -3 on block; Super-Skrull no longer falls prone after aerial use.

“Brutal Pile Bunker is now -2 on block.”
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo-

Yesssssssss! He has no other safe attack options.

Thor:
Honestly, I feel like Thor's normals should recover a lot faster. His cr.L has as much recovery as Dante's Stinger. It's terrible.

He's all about the aerial normals, though. I'm not against changing the recovery on c.M or something to give him another recovery option, though. Thoughts?

Trish:
“Trick “Hopscotch” travel time and hitstun increased; now OTGs.”
Still feel like the histun increase should be axed.

It's for easier conversions at the top of the screen.

Vergil:

Throw the poor guy a bone. Give him

+ Devil Trigger Judgment Cut now hits OTG
+ Can manually fire each projectile of Sword Storm with ATK+S as with Blistering Swords.

I'll add the second one, but no way on the first. Vergil's Devil Trigger is probably the best install in the game.

+Sword Storm projectiles may now be fired manually with an A+S input, as with Blistering Swords.

 

[Dahbomb]

I will come up with a few fixes to Ghost Rider, Sentinel and Hsien Ko in terms of frame data.

Sentinel Old (UMVC3) Rocket Punch:

Recovery: 38
Advantage on block: -20
Advantage on hit: -10 (-4 for air version)

Sentinel New Rocket Punch:

Recovery: 28
Advantage on block: -4 (6 frames of additional block stun)
Advantage on hit: -4 (for all versions, this means subtracting 4 frames of hit stun because if you just adjusted the recovery this move becomes 0 on hit and that would lead to crazy new combos)


This will help with the inconsistencies of landing HSF after a ground Rocket Punch and make it a much more usable move in the neutral.


Ghost Rider Maelstrom (Old)

Recovery: 50
On block: -42

Ghost Rider Maelstrom (New)

Recovery: 25
On block: -7 (with 10 additional frames of block stun)


This is the best I could do for Ghost Rider. His recovery is indeed way too higher. Another supremely shit hyper. The new pushback on it should prevent it from being punishable in most situations now that it's only -7. Frantic is right that the move is highly inconsistent and has numerous gaps in it that people can use to chicken block and punish easier... this should be rectified.


Hsien Ko Henkyo Ki L/M/H (Old)

Recovery: 30/32/36
Advantage on block: -6/-10/-14
(No data on what this move's advantage is in the air)

New Hsien Ko

Recovery: 20/22/26
Advantage on block: +4/0/-4
Advantage on hit: (You would have to lower the hit stun for the move in the air by 10 frames otherwise she will start getting infinites)


This is the only Hsien Ko change that makes sense to me. Basically just cutting down the recovery by 10 frames flat across the board. It makes all of them safe on ground and in the air. The problem then becomes that if you just change the recovery that gives her more advantage on hit. The only way we can reduce infinites is to do it like they did for Smart Bombs in Iron Man... reduce the hit stun by that same amount to avoid infinites. So you have to reduce the hit stun by 10 to improve recovery by 10.

 

[Frantic]

*Chris*Good point; would you figure out the correct math?

Ummm... I could, but it'd take a long time.

Spoiler

I'm lazy and don't wanna... lol

*Deadpool*I'd like for it to be usable as an anti-air. I doubt it will be loopable; it causes a lot of knockback.

In XF2, Katana-Rama has the same amount of recovery as the proposed change has, and you can loop Katana-Rama L four times as before they pop out(the startup becomes 10 frames, but they're propped pretty high). If we're increasing hitstun as well, I feel like it'd be best to stay on the safe side.

Maybe make Chimichangas safer?

*Frank West*Why?

Mainly because you don't want to mess with the recovery of the move, since that's how he gets his level ups. If you reduce it, he'll probably be able to get more snapshots with extensions, making it easier to level up. The move only has 13 frames of blockstun right now, so you can increase it without pushblock messing things up(as is, pushblocking makes it safer than it actually is).

*Ghost Rider*More blockstun?

Won't work with this one, unfortunately. I'm not really sure how to fix the move without removing the recovery entirely, and that's something I don't think Capcom would do. Not unless it's a Phoenix Wright sort of deal where the animation of the move can continue if left alone, but the move itself just recovers before then. *shrug*

*Hsien-Ko* More blockstun?

Dahbomb's idea works.

*Rocket Raccoon*It's a small change to help with combo consistency.

Honestly, I'd just make it so it forces a ground bounce regardless before messing with the startup of moves. I never understood why he, Akuma and Hawkeye have that problem, but others can OTG just fine. Seems dumb.

What move has the most hitstun in the entire game?

I think straight up hitstun is Chris' shotgun at 37 frames of hitstun. It's also the move with the highest blockstun(to my knowledge) at a whopping 36, although if you pushblock it's not punishable outside of him being in the corner, but is a lot less advantageous and you can start approaching him immediately. That's not counting stuff like soft-knockdown, hard-knockdown, ground-bounces, crumples, supers, etc.

*She-Hulk*Why does this change actually matter? I've never heard reasoning for it.

It's mainly because if you end a combo in the corner, you no longer have the corner to work with if you didn't kill, and even if you do kill you won't have the corner exactly since you'll have to stay midscreen to get them in the corner. It also messes with some DHC synergy, since the pushback to full screen can often lead to less damage(such as with, say, Taskmaster's arrow super). It was a random change Capcom made from vanilla to Ultimate, and I never understood why they changed it.

*Super-Skrull*Yesssssssss! He has no other safe attack options.

I have never once punished this move outside of XF-cancel, and I play sword characters! Even when I chicken block it and try to punish, he blocks it! That hop back is safe, I swear to god!

*Thor*He's all about the aerial normals, though. I'm not against changing the recovery on c.M or something to give him another recovery option, though. Thoughts?

I don't really play Thor, so I can't comment! I just remember seeing his frame data and going 'wtf'. He's the god of thunder and lightning, yet he takes forever to bring his leg back after a puny little kick.

*Trish*It's for easier conversions at the top of the screen.

Like I said before, the hitstun on it is already ridiculous. Adding more is silly, imo.

I'll add the second one, but no way on the first. Vergil's Devil Trigger is probably the best install in the game.

It's a tie between Dante and Vergil's DT, honestly. Vortex is good, man.

Still like the idea of it OTG'ing just because it's not like he'll build any meter in DT.

 

[smurfx]

i forgot one change i would like to make to taskmaster. can you change it so his c.H hits low?

 

[Dahbomb]

i forgot one change i would like to make to taskmaster. can you change it so his c.H hits low?

His cr.L and cr.M are great lows. We only gave lows to characters who actually needed them like Chun Li and Iron Fist.

Dante's crystal has 38 frames of block stun. I am surprised Frantic didn't refer to that. 30 frames of recovery but +8 on block. Judgment Cut also has 38 frames of block stun.

Moves like Round Trip I didn't count because that's like a special case of block stun.

 

[Frantic]

Dante's crystal has 38 frames of block stun. I am surprised Frantic didn't refer to that. 30 frames of recovery but +8 on block.

He actually starts to recover before all the icicles are out. The move doesn't really have active frames for Dante. It goes straight from startup to recovery, and the icicles have a unique active period of 42 frames. The +8 on block is a generalized number, and the one that's taken into account from point blank. If you hit a character with the very last icicle of Crystal, you can actually be +14 or more on hit, since you can link a Stinger from it. You basically have to take into account spacing, how deep into active frames the move is, how many hits there are, etc before you can calculate advantage on hit/block. You can't really just look at the frame data in the book and say it's +8 in every situation.

It's the same reason why Vergil's Round Trip is +89 on block; he recovers while active frames are still out and forcing block stun on someone, so technically he has 89 frames to do something while they're still in blockstun before they're taken out of blockstun.

 

["God's Beard!"]

He actually starts to recover before all the icicles are out. The move doesn't really have active frames for Dante. It goes straight from startup to recovery, and the icicles have a unique active period of 42 frames. The +8 on block is a generalized number, and the one that's taken into account from point blank. If you hit a character with the very last icicle of Crystal, you can actually be +14 or more on hit, since you can link a Stinger from it. You basically have to take into account spacing, how deep into active frames the move is, how many hits there are, etc before you can calculate advantage on hit/block. You can't really just look at the frame data in the book and say it's +8 in every situation.

It's a projectile, that's how every projectile works.