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[vg260]

I think they could get away with a $5-10 charge just for a balance patch if they added the Vita features in plus some of the features we requested up there.

Man, I could imagine the usual general gaming outrage being even more than usual if there would be a charge for an update with no new characters.

Input changes need strong arguments for them, not just "well, that's tradition". I even left Shuma-Gorath's inputs as goddamn charge moves. You're a Zero player, so dp motions should be second nature to you.

A few people have brought up the ATK+S input change, and I'm interested in it, but I haven't really seen a compelling argument. Would it somehow improve the character? Does the current input interfere with his gameplay in some way? None of the committee members have responded to these requests. It's truly bizarre that you are focusing on me. If no committee member attaches to an idea, it doesn't move - it is required that 4/5 vote for it. Instead of whining to me, whine to another member to take up your cause. I just change the list - I don't control what's on it beyond the initial suggestions I post, which are my own ideas, which is how everyone should be doing it.

I like the Atk+S change for Iron Man as well.
I dunno. I just think making inputs as simple as possible if the option exists is just better design, especially if there is a history and it doesn't break the move. Less focus on execution, more on strategy. If there's not a valid argument against it, or the argument against changing is that it the difference is negligible, I don't see a reason not to.

 

[Dahbomb]

LOL if they don't change the game.... we will change the game ourselves!

Most of our changes would've been pretty easy to implement on a PC version.

I do think God's Beard brings up a valid point of cutting down the changes to the essential. Some characters just have 10 changes for no real reason despite being good already. Others definitely need all of those 10 changes.

And when the fuck did we decide to buff Hammer? God damn Dante fans! Give them milk and they start asking for a cookie!

If ten changes isn't enough to make a charcter good, maybe we need to look at the changes. I'd rather have 5 changes that get people's attention than 10 that only change little tiny things.

I am really curious as to how you plan on making characters like Hsien Ko, She Hulk and Iron Fist "good" with just 5 changes.

The 5 changes that you are asking for are too dramatic for us to even ask. Like obviously I can make Iron Fist good if he had a teleport and an 8 way air dash... but that's dumb.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73773928]If ten changes isn't enough to make a charcter good, maybe we need to look at the changes. I'd rather have 5 changes that get people's attention than 10 that only change little tiny things.[/QUOTE]
Then look at the changes and suggest 5 Iron Fist, Hsien-ko, Ghost Rider, She-Hulk, Nemesis, Iron Man, and Arthur changes that can go.

 

[Dahbomb]

Then look at the changes and suggest 5 Iron Fist, Hsien-ko, Ghost Rider, She-Hulk, Nemesis, Iron Man, and Arthur changes that can go.

Minimum air dash change. :x

I can also live without the launcher change. That is more of a change for entry level players and that's fine... there is nothing wrong with a change like that Capcom makes changes like that all the time. But I would argue he doesn't need it in fact it would just lead to worse Iron Man play.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I do think God's Beard brings up a valid point of cutting down the changes to the essential. Some characters just have 10 changes for no real reason despite being good already. Others definitely need all of those 10 changes.

This is the main thing. Remember, we're not just making this for ourselves as an exercise in balancing anymore. It has to be presentable for other websites and Combofiend. We start going willy nilly with stuff most of those guys are gonna go "oh those silly fans want everything" and dismiss us without spending a tenth of the effort we did to make it.

Big ideas, right to the point. That's how we grab people. Move away from the subtlety of fine art and towards the explosiveness of illustration. Grab the headlines.

I'm not gonna be a stickler and say ABSOLUTELY ONLY 5 for shit characters, but come on.

 

[Dahbomb]

These are the changes that are essential to Iron Man (bolded):

*Ground dash is now attack and crouch cancelable.
*Air dash down/forward and down back startup returned to Vanilla levels; current acceleration and momentum retained.
*s.S horizontal and vertical hitbox significantly improved.
*c.H missile travels straight forward now.
*Smart Bomb now differs in trajectory by input: L version closer to Iron Man, H version furthest away; hitbox significantly increased; can now be charged: after 15 additional frames of charging, gains a larger hitbox, more hitstun, more durability, and descends slower; assist version has 35 frames of startup.
*Proton Cannon changed to +2 on hit, -5 on block; causes soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
*Minimum air dash height reduced to allow air dashes straight out of a grounded flight.
* s.H and j.M hit boxes extended to match the hit box of c.M.
*Iron Avenger vertical hitbox increased.
*Minimum damage scaling on specials reduced to 20%.

The other stuff like j.M having equal hit box to cr.M, better hit box on Iron Avenger and minimum scaling changed are all stuff he would still be competitive without them.

 

[Karsticles]

I don't agree with you. Plenty of characters got more than 5 changes in Ultimate. Some of our more subtle changes are just as good as the "explosive" ones. Anyone who seriously dismisses us because we have 10 changes instead of 5 is a moron. I don't consider ComboFiend to be a moron, so I am not worried. If anything, more changes gives Capcom more angles to consider. It's the same danger as sticking with a TAC change - the less information we give them, the greater the danger of them thinking we are content with the current state of things.

These are the changes that are essential to Iron Man (bolded):




The other stuff like j.M having equal hit box to cr.M, better hit box on Iron Avenger and minimum scaling changed are all stuff he would still be competitive without.

You don't consider that reduction on his minimum damage scaling to be essential for Iron Man? BRB, giving everyone the 5 best Dormammu changes without his nerfs. ;-)

 

[GuardianE]

And when the fuck did we decide to buff Hammer? God damn Dante fans! Give them milk and they start asking for a cookie!

It's a minute change so that the Hammer doesn't clean whiff at low height. Not Vanilla levels, just enough so that it can actually has an active hitbox in front of it after a j.H. It wasn't my suggestion, though. I'm still pining for solo combos off airthrows.


[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73775358]Big ideas, right to the point. That's how we grab people. Move away from the subtlety of fine art and towards the explosiveness of illustration. Grab the headlines.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you could highlight certain lines as key changes, and keep the other details as fine tuning.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Minimum air dash change. :x

I can also live without the launcher change. That is more of a change for entry level players and that's fine... there is nothing wrong with a change like that Capcom makes changes like that all the time. But I would argue he doesn't need it in fact it would just lead to worse Iron Man play.

LOL I didn't even know you guys had that you greedy assholes. Iron Man already has just about the lowest airdash height in the game.

Magneto 7
Doom 6
Iron Man 3

FUCKING THREE FRAMES

Oh yeah let's just give the guy with third-screen air normals and dash canceling a great airdash that can be used on the fucking ground. That's an awesome idea.

 

[Dahbomb]

You don't consider that reduction on his minimum damage scaling to be essential for Iron Man? BRB, giving everyone the 5 best Dormammu changes without his nerfs. ;-)

I was talking about essential stuff in order to make Iron Man more competitive from his current state. Dorm is already competitive.

The minimum scaling change would happen if a lot of characters would get a damage nerf (which they are in this version). It would also go through if IM got all those other buffs. But if I had to absolutely choose under 5 changes for IM, the bolded ones would always be top priority. Iron Man absolutely needs better mobility, better smart bombs and a better Proton Cannon... like it pretty much can't be argued against.

Iron Man already has just about the lowest airdash height in the game.

This was only Karst's change, no one else agreed to this because no one really cared because "meh IM sucks anyway". I fucking fought to my last breath and then just gave up.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73776313]LOL I didn't even know you guys had that you greedy assholes. Iron Man already has just about the lowest airdash height in the game.

Magneto 7
Doom 6
Iron Man 3

FUCKING THREE FRAMES

Oh yeah let's just give the guy with third-screen air normals and dash canceling a great airdash that can be used on the fucking ground. That's an awesome idea.[/QUOTE]
Maybe you should pay attention to the discussions more.

Change removed since Dahbomb and GB are against it.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I don't play Iron Man and figured you guys were responsible enough to pick out not-crazy changes while I focused on my focus characters that were happening at the same time. Just kinda glanced around and didn't notice anything unusual.

I don't agree with you. Plenty of characters got more than 5 changes in Ultimate. Some of our more subtle changes are just as good as the "explosive" ones. Anyone who seriously dismisses us because we have 10 changes instead of 5 is a moron. I don't consider ComboFiend to be a moron, so I am not worried. If anything, more changes gives Capcom more angles to consider. It's the same danger as sticking with a TAC change - the less information we give them, the greater the danger of them thinking we are content with the current state of things.

The point isn't 5 changes or 8 changes or 3 changes. I'm just saying we use the opportunity to

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73777278]The point isn't 5 changes or 8 changes or 3 changes. I'm just saying we use the opportunity to [/QUOTE]
You specifically said that you wanted the max to be 5, so I take that to be your point. If you think there's fat somewhere, then suggest a trim and we'll talk about it. That's simple enough - no need for a rule change.

 

[Dahbomb]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73777278]
The point isn't 5 changes or 8 changes or 3 changes. I'm just saying we use the opportunity to [/QUOTE]
Then become more proactive in these discussions and start listing stuff you don't want in. Right now it's mostly Karst and myself who are making the changes plus asking for people who are character specialists. Some people give their input yes but only if it's really controversial stuff. We have 5 committee members but most of the time it feels like 2-3.

Also it should be known that some changes were made for less than super top level play and that's fine. We don't want to shut out the regular players either. However, if you are asking for a control input change you need more reasoning. Right now we rejected input changes for Spider Man and Hsien Ko despite their cases being stronger.

 

["God's Beard!"]

You specifically said that you wanted the max to be 5, so I take that to be your point. If you think there's fat somewhere, then suggest a trim and we'll talk about it. That's simple enough - no need for a rule change.

I apologize if I didn't word it correctly, but I'm not a particularly pedantic person. I just mean 5 should be the goal, and if a character needs more(or less), don't worry about it.

It's like my painting teachers always say. Never add white to your paint unless you absolutely need it, but if you do, don't hesitate.

Then become more proactive in these discussions and start listing stuff you don't want in. Right now it's mostly Karst and myself who are making the changes plus asking for people who are character specialists. Some people give their input yes but only if it's really controversial stuff. We have 5 committee members but most of the time it feels like 2-3.

Seriously? I made as much or more input as you guys until the last 2 or so sets, and that's because I don't have the goddamn game and don't feel comfortable bringing up some things that I can't test. Other than that, only characters that I know nothing about like She-Hulk did I refrain from making comments on because I felt it wasn't my place. I was also gone most of the weekend so I wasn't around to post as often as you guys.

 

[ZeroCDR]

An argument involves making points, not just saying "It's too much!" over and over and making accusations against me. You've yet to make an actual point in your case. Consider looking at some of the posts others have made regarding recent characters for reference of what an argument entails.

Your arguments amounted to "Too much pressure!" and "Full screen combos, screen clearing projectile every 2.5 seconds!"

Raikousen being nerfed will nerf his Buster combos. Zero is not the only character in the game to convert combos off full screen projectiles, and his needs to be fully charged to do so. It's a charge move, I'm tying up one of my buttons all the time for this so the high durability is warranted.

Increasing the charge time will mess with his combos, a lot of instances where the Buster just won't charge in time.

Input changes need strong arguments for them, not just "well, that's tradition". I even left Shuma-Gorath's inputs as goddamn charge moves. You're a Zero player, so dp motions should be second nature to you.

That's not all my argument amounted to. SRK's mid-combo are occasionally problematic, and Iron Man doesn't need additional execution barriers. Sure I'm a Zero player, but that doesn't mean I don't have occasional SRK issues, and that I can't identify with people having SRK issues from time to time. It's not like I'm arguing for Raikousen L to be QCF.

It's truly bizarre that you are focusing on me. If no committee member attaches to an idea, it doesn't move - it is required that 4/5 vote for it. Instead of whining to me, whine to another member to take up your cause.

I respond to you because you've responded to my suggestions. I respond to your suggestions because they affect characters I'm interested in. I'd want to convince you because you have a say, sorry that hasn't been of satisfaction to you but I will do my best.

 

[Dahbomb]

Seriously? I made as much or more input as you guys until the last 2 or so sets, and that's because I don't have the goddamn game and don't feel comfortable bringing up some things that I can't test.

I didn't say you didn't contribute... I am saying if you are asking for a big change on the list then start listing stuff you have a problem with. Because a lot of stuff on there was argued to be essential. Now everyone has their own definition of what is essential. I am not going to reject Iron Man's launcher suggestion even though it's not essential for me it might be essential for a larger number of people and I accept that. So you would probably have to accept that some changes are more essential than you may like.

Also how do you feel about Bionic Arm being nerfed? Would you say it's essential that it needs a nerfs? If not then that can easily be removed from there.

 

[Karsticles]

Your arguments amounted to "Too much pressure!" and "Full screen combos, screen clearing projectile every 2.5 seconds!"

Yes, and these are good points.

Raikousen being nerfed will nerf his Buster combos. Zero is not the only character in the game to convert full combos off full screen projectiles. It's a charge move, I'm tying up one of my buttons all the time for this so the high durability is warranted.

How will the Raikousen change nerf Zero combos? I rarely see the Raikousen cancel used mid-combo. Give specific examples; that's the sort of stuff I need to be convinced. I posted a full screen carry combo with Zero that only needs 1 buster shot to show that he can still corner carry fine.

Increasing the charge time will mess with his combos, a lot of instances where the Buster just won't charge in time.

Will it make him impossible to combo with, or will Zero players just have to use a few other combos that they don't use anymore, like the one I posted?

That's not all my argument amounted to. SRK's mid-combo are occasionally problematic, and Iron Man doesn't need additional execution barriers. Sure I'm a Zero player, but that doesn't mean I don't have occasional SRK issues, and that I can't identify with people having SRK issues from time to time. It's not like I'm arguing for Raikousen L to be QCF.

As a Dormammu player, it's very hard for me to understand OTG via an SRK motion into a hyper as being problematic. Sure, I could say "Move Purification to A+S inputs", but I still don't see the case for why that should be. It's particularly uncompelling when Dahbomb is even indifferent, and he is an Iron Man fanatic. I'm not inclined to make input changes unless the input often comes out wrong or interferes with other inputs during the combo.

I respond to you because you've responded to my suggestions. I respond to your suggestions because they affect characters I'm interested in. I'd want to convince you because you have a say, sorry that hasn't been of satisfaction to you but I will do my best.

Well, consider not continually insulting the one person who is responding to your suggestions. I do my best to be impartial, but it does take effort to look graciously upon ideas that come out alongside venom.

Also how do you feel about Bionic Arm being nerfed? Would you say it's essential that it needs a nerfs? If not then that can easily be removed from there.

That's just vicious, Dahbomb!

 

[Dahbomb]

I rarely see the Raikousen cancel used mid-combo.

Later combos for Zero definitely use the soft knock down property to extend enough just before the Lightning Loop. Stuff like Jam Session, Lightning, Buster, Lightning stuff. The soft knockdown definitely lowers his combo capability at least right before performing Lightning Loops. There is no Lightning hit box after a Lighting -> Buster cancel so that also further limits combo possibilities as well as putting a damper on some of his more ambiguous mix ups.

As a Dormammu player, it's very hard for me to understand OTG via an SRK motion into a hyper as being problematic. Sure, I could say "Move Purification to A+S inputs", but I still don't see the case for why that should be. It's particularly uncompelling when Dahbomb is even indifferent, and he is an Iron Man fanatic. I'm not inclined to make input changes unless the input often comes out wrong or interferes with other inputs during the combo.

The problem with Smart Bombs OTG is not the SRK motion it's that its a bit position dependent and it also depends upon when you cancel it. You can blame this also on Proton Cannon having a shit start up. The only thing that will change with A + S for Smart Bombs is now Iron Man would be able to option select his Smart Bombs with throws. I guess doing dash up Smart Bomb OTG Proton Cannon would also be easier but then again we are giving him a normal cancelable ground dash, this should no longer be an issue.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I have a lifetime of programming experience, but I've never done anything like hacking a game. My guess is it's a lot harder with the HD systems, but not impossible.

Depends on what you want to hack. Certain stuff is way easier to mess with on modern systems because it adheres to certain common formats/structures. A big example is translation stuff; it's usually easier to fuck around with a modern game in Shift-JIS than an old game that has to use custom tables and compression routines to save space.

 

[Karsticles]

Sometimes I wonder if we have enough programming experience in here to just make our own fighting game - hahaha.

Later combos for Zero definitely use the soft knock down property to extend enough just before the Lightning Loop. Stuff like Jam Session, Lightning, Buster, Lightning stuff. The soft knockdown definitely lowers his combo capability at least right before performing Lightning Loops. There is no Lightning hit box after a Lighting -> Buster cancel so that also further limits combo possibilities as well as putting a damper on some of his more ambiguous mix ups.

Oh right, that nerf - hahaha. Yes, it will.

 

[ZeroCDR]

How will the Raikousen change nerf Zero combos? I rarely see the Raikousen cancel used mid-combo. Give specific examples; that's the sort of stuff I need to be convinced. I posted a full screen carry combo with Zero that only needs 1 buster shot to show that he can still corner carry fine.

Will it make him impossible to combo with, or will Zero players just have to use a few other combos that they don't use anymore, like the one I posted?

Raikousen scaling and Zero's overall damage should be fixed, so you're not getting solo TOD's off stray Buster anymore (Unless you want to burn a lot of meter for LL, if that's still going to be in). That combo from Vanilla got wonkier with the HSD changes in Ultimate, half the time the character flips out before the j.M after landing.

Well, consider not continually insulting the one person who is responding to your suggestions. I do my best to be impartial, but it does take effort to look graciously upon ideas that come out alongside venom.

Considering the respect you showed me when first addressing my Smart Bombs suggestion? I've been just fine, especially in that situation. All I've said otherwise is that you have a severe problem with Buster.

 

[QisTopTier]

Actually, can we really give arthur 6 durability on his lances?

 

[Karsticles]

Actually, can we really give arthur 6 durability on his lances?

Why is 10 durability for the two-toss not enough?

 

[Dahbomb]

The only reason I am not opposed to the 5 frame change on his Buster start up is because doing stuff like command dash into Buster is ridiculously cheap. It's cheap because it's not a mix up you can really react to and it's not something that is punishable. It's basically a free Berserker Slash that is safe and he gets a full combo off of it without any assist or meter usage. He has more variations of these types of mix ups especially in the corner. 5 additional frames on the Buster shot would MAYBE give you that slight extra hint of him doing the mix up. Anything beyond 5 frame would start affecting his combos and other minute stuff related to Buster.

It would also make Zero more susceptible to XFC like the rest of the cast. Trying to XFC a Zero player is a hopeless cause in this game where as against everyone else it's a viable tactic.

 

[QisTopTier]

Why is 10 durability for the two-toss not enough?

Well if you think about it doing the second toss can fuck him over pretty badly from dealing with the extended recovery time on it. Arthur will rarely toss a second lance on the ground in most situations

If not that maybe decrease the recovery frames on the axe toss?

 

[Karsticles]

Well if you think about it doing the second toss can fuck him over pretty badly from dealing with the extended recovery time on it.

If not that maybe increase the recovery frames on the axe toss?

This is how I have always used his projectiles:
Dagger Toss - covering a wide area around jump height
Lance Toss - after knocking someone down with Dagger Toss, double throw Lances for damage and priority
Ax Toss - best for knocking down big bodies since it covers a wide area
Crossbow - use this to establish your initial projectile pressure and stay mobile

And do you mean decrease the recovery frames on Ax Toss?

A thought about Arthur, since he came up: moving during Goddess Bracelet? I really hate not being able to walk during this.

 

[QisTopTier]

This is how I have always used his projectiles:
Dagger Toss - covering a wide area around jump height
Lance Toss - after knocking someone down with Dagger Toss, double throw Lances for damage and priority
Ax Toss - best for knocking down big bodies since it covers a wide area
Crossbow - use this to establish your initial projectile pressure and stay mobile

And do you mean decrease the recovery frames on Ax Toss?

A thought about Arthur, since he came up: moving during Goddess Bracelet? I really hate not being able to walk during this.

The lance/axe thing is more of a counter measure vs other zoners as well he's still the least mobile zoner

Yeah I ment decrease, and yes make it so Arthur can walk during Goddess Bracelet, jumping literally makes it drop most of the time which fucks up spacing and fallow ups he could do.

We should probably talk about firebrand some more too, do we really want him to stay an unblockable loop character with the powered up assist in the game? *not that I have complaints* Would be more interesting to focus on his other assets

 

[Karsticles]

We should probably talk about firebrand some more too, do we really want him to stay an unblockable loop character with the powered up assist in the game?

I'd like it if people stopped pussyfooting around their opinions with "do we want this" when they have an opinion. Speak up and voice your opinion and argue it!

For walkable Goddess Bracelet, we'd have to drop one of these changes:
Arthur:
*j.S horizontal hitbox increased slightly; hitstun increased.
*When Gold Armor is on, the input for Gold Armor refreshes the duration; Gold Armor is now a soft knockdown on break.
*s.M now starts up in 6 frames and has 8 active frames.
*Cross Sword is now special-cancelable; air OK.
*Walk speed increased; general speed increased further when without armor.
*Arthur now recovers from air and ground throws faster; easier to convert into a combo.
*Startup on normals decreased by 2 frames across the board; hitstun increased slightly on all normals.
*Shield Deflect stagger caused by counter lasts longer.
*Fire Bottle (Gold Armor) now has a wider hitbox and more consistently OTGs characters; assist version startup changed to 34.
*Scythe Toss recovery reduced to 30.

Assists: Dagger Toss, Crossbow, Fire Bottle

 

[QisTopTier]

I'd like it if people stopped pussyfooting around their opinions with "do we want this" when they have an opinion. Speak up and voice your opinion and argue it!

It's not pussyfooting, it's a question of would the character be more fun if his toolset was powered up vs it staying mostly how it is because of the unblockable. People like both aspects, so it's debatable. I'd prefer it if he actually played as he was ment to be designed, but he'd need a lot of small changes.

 

[Karsticles]

Dahbomb, I decided to swap Dormammu's Dark Matter assist out for Dark Hole (Tracking), as per your suggestion.

It's not pussyfooting, it's a question of would the character be more fun if his toolset was powered up vs it staying mostly how it is because of the unblockable

Okay, but you're bringing it up, so presumably you have an opinion on it, right? Voice that opinion - that's all I'm saying.

Firebrand is unblockable-centric, and changing that would require a buttfuck-ton of buffs to make up for it. He's not like C. Viper, who gets along fine without her unblockable. That said, I'm open ears for a Firebrand without unblockables; I just need to hear something.

 

[QisTopTier]

For Arthur I'd say remove the sheild reflect change for the Goddess Bracelet one. He already has an SRK he can cancel into goddess bracelet to stay safe, with a buffed up godess Bracelet this becomes extra potent

 

[onionfrog]

I think they could get away with a $5-10 charge just for a balance patch if they added the Vita features in plus some of the features we requested up there.

I think anyone other than us(People that are really diehard about the game) would be outraged if capcom charged for a balance patch.

I'd be for it if it was a paid balance patch or nothing at all.

 

[Dahbomb]

Cool.

And yeah anyone making suggestions on characters who already have 10 changes... you not only need to make a case for your new change but make a case for how one of the 10 changes is not needed and can be replaced.

Right now these characters have 10 changes on them:

Amaterasu (10 buffs)
Arthur (10 buffs, needs all of them)
Dante (both buffs and nerfs)
Doom (both buffs and nerfs)
Dorm (both buffs and nerfs)
Dr Strange (9 buffs, 1 nerf)
Felicia (10 buffs)
Firebrand (10 buffs)
Ghost Rider (10 buffs, needs all of them)
Hawkeye (10 buffs)
Hsien Ko (10 buffs, needs all of them)
Iron Fist (10 buffs, needs all of them)
Iron Man (9 buffs, 1 nerf)
Nemesis (10 buffs, needs all of them)
Phoenix Wright (10 buffs, needs all of them)
Ryu (10 buffs)
RR (10 buffs)
Sentinel (9 buffs, 1 nerf)
She Hulk (10 buffs, needs all of them)
Shuma Gorath (10 buffs, needs all of them)
Storm (10 buffs)
Skrull (9 buffs, 1 nerf)
Thor (10 buffs)
Trish (10 buffs)
X23 (10 buffs)


Around half of the cast has 10 changes, and it's definitely geared towards the bottom half. 8 of the characters in bottom 10 should definitely be left alone for having 10 buffs (Chun Li and Tron got 9 buffs so they should be left alone as well). The rest of the characters could use some fat cutting.

Right now I am looking at these characters as maybe needing a second pass:

Trish
Amaterasu
Hawkeye
Firebrand
Thor
Ryu
RR
X23
Storm
Felica

None of these are bad characters (well Ryu is debatable) but they got a ton of buffs and we should definitely look at them again.

 

[Karsticles]

For Arthur I'd say remove the sheild reflect change for the Goddess Bracelet one. He already has an SRK he can cancel into goddess bracelet to stay safe, with a buffed up godess Bracelet this becomes extra potent

If another committee member approves, I'll swap them up.

I think anyone other than us(People that are really diehard about the game) would be outraged if capcom charged for a balance patch.

I'd be for it if it was a paid balance patch or nothing at all.

I think the recent SFxT DLC discovery shows that Capcom is willing to charge for nothing, so charging for a patch makes perfect sense.

 

[QisTopTier]

Firebrand is unblockable-centric, and changing that would require a buttfuck-ton of buffs to make up for it. He's not like C. Viper, who gets along fine without her unblockable. That said, I'm open ears for a Firebrand without unblockables; I just need to hear something.

Why not make make his fireballs command dash cancel-able for starters?
Decrease his recovery frames on his demon missile as well

I'll think of some more stuff, but you already have some good changes on there he mostly needs his damage up the most if he loses the unblockable.

Those two plus fixing his combo scaling alone would give him a ton more synergy with how he's designed

 

[Karsticles]

Why not make make his fireballs command dash cancel-able for starters?
Decrease his recovery frames on his demon missile as well

I'll think of some more stuff, but you already have some good changes on there he mostly needs his damage up the most if he loses the unblockable.

If you make the fireballs command dash cancelable, then you're basically creating an AV-less Morrigan mixed with Wolverine. As fun as that sounds (haha), I can't see that being an okay change.

 

[QisTopTier]

If you make the fireballs command dash cancelable, then you're basically creating an AV-less Morrigan mixed with Wolverine. As fun as that sounds (haha), I can't see that being an okay change.

Well it is marvel, there is plenty of crazy shit in already. In context of him in the current patch game it's not as bad as it sounds. Buffed up Hseinko would probably wreck his shit hard and in context of the current game it's still not as bad as zero is right now.

 

[onionfrog]

I think the recent SFxT DLC discovery shows that Capcom is willing to charge for nothing, so charging for a patch makes perfect sense.

True.
I'll keep on hoping.

 

[Dahbomb]

If another committee member approves, I'll swap them up.

What's going to change and why? Please summarize these Arthur changes because I was having problems following the arguments.

 

[QisTopTier]

What's going to change and why? Please summarize these Arthur changes because I was having a problem following the arguments.

Replace the extended shield stagger buff with being able to walk in goddess bracelet

Sheild reflect is ment to be a reversal but he already has one with his SRK, being able to walk during Goddess Bracelet would make this reversal more potent and add in more spacing controll for arthur as jumping typically drops the hyper

 

[Karsticles]

Exhibit A of Bionic Lancer having too high of a vertical hitbox:
http://www.twitch.tv/sandiegofgc/b/437951306?t=4h28m50s

Well it is marvel, there is plenty of crazy shit in already. In context of him in the current patch game it's not as bad as it sounds. Buffed up Hseinko would probably wreck his shit hard and in context of the current game it's still not as bad as zero is right now.

Hmmm...I'm curious what others think.

True.
I'll keep on hoping.

Believe!

What's going to change and why? Please summarize these Arthur changes because I was having a problem following the arguments.

Basically, Arthur can't walk during Goddess Bracelet. Q and I think he should be able to (either to walk away or toward an opponent based on the situation). But that means removing a change. Q suggested this one:
*Shield Deflect stagger caused by counter lasts longer.

 

[QisTopTier]

Hmmm...I'm curious what others think.

Yeah, I just mostly want him to be less of a one trick pony and more interesting honestly. This change alone completely opens up new venues of play with him

 

[Dahbomb]

Why do you want him to walk during it when he can jump towards you? I don't understand which situation that would be useful or preferable in.

 

[QisTopTier]

Why do you want him to walk during it when he can jump towards you? I don't understand which situation that would be useful or preferable in.

Why would I want to jump when this causes the hyper to stop hitting?

I already explained it, by letting him walk it keeps them locked in hit stun so if he's close he can do his solo fallow ups, if they are not hit he can safely walk back and get his spacing set up again. It's not "too good" because it's tied to the hyper bar and this prevents a lot of fucked up drops that happens with the super

 

[Karsticles]

Why do you want him to walk during it when he can jump towards you? I don't understand which situation that would be useful or preferable in.

It drops if you jump against a standing opponent. If you let him walk, he could gain space while keeping the opponent in hit/blockstun, or he could walk toward the opponent and get a small follow-up if he got the hit up close.

 

[Dahbomb]

Why would I want to jump when this causes the hyper to stop hitting?

Then just not jump? I don't see the utility of this. I mean this MIGHT be useful if his walk speed wasn't complete shit.

The other change is kinda meh too so I wouldn't really be bothered if it gets replaced anyway. Seems like both changes are sort of non essential.

Exhibit A of Bionic Lancer having too high of a vertical hitbox:
http://www.twitch.tv/sandiegofgc/b/437951306?t=4h28m50s

I see Morrigan doing an accidental Finishing Shower hyper and getting punished for it (rightfully so).

If we want to start bringing in evidence of busted ass hit boxes in the game there would be no end to it. I mean before we even begin on Bionic Arm we should be addressing Vergil's normals particularly his launcher that has a huge hit box behind him! *Que Frantic posting a pic of "seems legit" Vergil*

 

[QisTopTier]

Then just not jump? I don't see the utility of this. I mean this MIGHT be useful if his walk speed wasn't complete shit.

The other change is kinda meh too so I wouldn't really be bothered if it gets replaced anyway. Seems like both changes are sort of non essential.

This one is actually a pretty large buff

And his walk speed is being buffed but even without that, being able to move this way during this hyper is huge.

 

[Dahbomb]

This one is actually a pretty large buff

And his walk speed is being buffed but even without that, being able to move this way during this hyper is huge.

If you think this is a huge buff then put it in/replace it. I don't know much about the character to argue.

 

[JeTmAn81]

Depends on what you want to hack. Certain stuff is way easier to mess with on modern systems because it adheres to certain common formats/structures. A big example is translation stuff; it's usually easier to fuck around with a modern game in Shift-JIS than an old game that has to use custom tables and compression routines to save space.

It's got to be a lot easier if you just want to make balance changes and use existing game assets than if you want to add new content. Most balancing stuff would literally just be tweaking a variable somewhere.

Sometimes I wonder if we have enough programming experience in here to just make our own fighting game - hahaha.

Maybe not from scratch, but it would definitely be possible using a development engine. Wasn't Divekick started in MUGEN, or did I make that up? I don't think they wrote all their code from scratch.