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[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73917858]

• Features - Y
• TACs - Y
• Throws - N opposed to increased distances
• X-Factor - Y
• Damage - N opposed to 20% damage nerf
• Combos - Y
• Assists - N opposed to no mashing assists during superjump resets
• Other - Y

[/QUOTE]
You're opposed to any distance increase in throws?

 

[Dahbomb]

I really have no say in any of this stuff, but to me this seems unnecessary and takes away a pretty big tool that is is part of what makes him unique. Sasa summed up why this nerf is counter to the character's style of play pretty well previously. There was also probably some reason the designers felt it necessary to keep it as is when going to ultimate.

I am 50/50 on this to be honest. I don't know that much about Spider Man to comment but I do know it will hurt him if he loses it.

I am going to remove my vote option from Spider Man for now.

 

["God's Beard!"]

You're opposed to any distance increase in throws?

Yes, if we already have throw invincibility or whatever for a few frames.

 

[Dahbomb]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73918448]Yes, if we already have throw invincibility or whatever for a few frames.[/QUOTE]
No that's a completely different thing.

On ground there is no real throw recovery but during air throw there is. There's this small period of throw recovery you have in the air but if you are sped up you can recover out of it faster than your opponent. There's an exploit in the game with Wolverine where he is super sped up he can regrab someone when they are in their tech recovery which is an animation that can't be teched out of so its a guaranteed set up.

It's rare but it can happen so we addressed it. This does not apply to ground throws.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I thought we agreed before that you can't throw people immediately after a tech?

 

[Karsticles]

I am 50/50 on this to be honest. I don't know that much about Spider Man to comment but I do know it will hurt him if he loses it.

I am going to remove my vote option from Spider Man for now.

Here is the list for easy copy-pasting; please take a day or so to look over each section carefully to be sure you approve of it; "Y" votes may not be withdrawn once submitted:

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73918448]Yes, if we already have throw invincibility or whatever for a few frames.[/QUOTE]
That's just to prevent throws during the tech animation. It has to do with things like XF3 Berserker Charge Wolverine double air throwing you before you can land.

 

[Dahbomb]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73918813]I thought we agreed before that you can't throw people immediately after a tech?[/QUOTE]
Have you never been caught in a near endless throw tech loop on the ground? When both you and your opponents are mashing H and it's just a series of techs over and over again?

That's what we are changing with this.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Have you never been caught in a near endless throw tech loop on the ground? When both you and your opponents are mashing H and it's just a series of techs over and over again?

That's what we are changing with this.

Yeah, that's what I thought. I don't want more than that.

 

[Dahbomb]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73919458]Yeah, that's what I thought. I don't want more than that.[/QUOTE]
It's not more than that so you are basically agreeing with the changes.

So basically between you and me we just need to debate assist call at super jump height during recovery. That and the health buff.

 

[vg260]

I am 50/50 on this to be honest. I don't know that much about Spider Man to comment but I do know it will hurt him if he loses it.

I am going to remove my vote option from Spider Man for now.

Cool. For those for it, I'm just wondering what's problematic about it now to make a case for it being removed. It seems like an argument on the character design principle rather than it being one that makes the current balance out of whack. He's still gotta work pretty hard to open people up, and well, he's Spider-Man. He should keep the perk of being able to zip around fairly safely, especially w/ stubby normals. Maybe it's annoying to fight against, but that's what Spidey does. Otherwise, might as well choose Spencer.

 

[Dahbomb]

If anyone has their Vanilla MVC3 guide, please let us know because there's a particular frame data we need to look at.

 

[JeTmAn81]

If anyone has their Vanilla MVC3 guide, please let us know because there's a particular frame data we need to look at.

I thought GB had one so I didn't say anything. I still have my vanilla guide. Whatcha need? I won't be home to look at it until tonight though.

edit: Last night I had a dream I was top 3 at EVO and slated to fight HAZ Angelic. Then I woke up (in the dream) and realized it was all a dream. Then I woke up for real. Today I am reading MUGEN tutorials.

 

[Dahbomb]

Sentinel Rocket Punch frame data for both air and ground version.

I had a dream that Capcom released a trailer for the new UMVC3 patch. Their answer for throw tech loop was that after 5 throw techs both characters get dizzy.... lol.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I compared them yesterday when you guys brought it up. They're the exact same in vanilla and ultimate, except in vanilla they're - on hit. I don't have a PS3 to test if that means soft knockdown or what.

Frankly, it's more confusing to me that the Ultimate version has actual frame numbers, since it knocks down and should be - on hit as well.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";74005813]I compared them yesterday when you guys brought it up. They're the exact same in vanilla and ultimate, except in vanilla they're - on hit. I don't have a PS3 to test if that means soft knockdown or what.

Frankly, it's more confusing to me that the Ultimate version has actual frame numbers, since it knocks down and should be - on hit as well.[/QUOTE]
This fits with what the ultimate guide says, which is just that its hitstun was reduced.

 

[Dahbomb]

They are minus on hit in Ultimate too (-10). I want to figure how much - on hit it is for Vanilla. I mean they definitely messed with the frame data of the move going from Vanilla to Ultimate.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Not minus, a -. A dash.

That's what you use for knockdowns. Any move that knocks down gets a - because the frame advantage depends on character size, weight and relation to your character. Knocking down sentinel gives you less advantage than magneto because he hits the ground faster, for instance.

I don't know any moves that knock down on grounded opponents that have an actual number other than Rocket Punch off hand.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";74010968]Not minus, a -. A dash.

That's what you use for knockdowns. Any move that knocks down gets a - because the frame advantage depends on character size, weight and relation to your character. Knocking down sentinel gives you less advantage than magneto because he hits the ground faster, for instance.

I don't know any moves that knock down on grounded opponents that have an actual number other than Rocket Punch off hand.[/QUOTE]
Very true. I remember when Double Lariat was a hard knockdown, people could do this combo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg55mWtli8I&t=02m32s

 

[Dahbomb]

So we can't really make hit stun return to Vanilla status. We just have to make it -4 on hit on all versions.

Also Gonzo made a serious reply to the Marvel patch situation on his "The Show that Sucks". He basically says the same as most people... Nerf Zero, Vergil, Morrigan, Doom plus some high damage characters and nerf TACs. He also thinks like Fanatiq and me that TACs should be reactable or easier to guess/read against. Says Hsien Ko Pendulum should be cancelable. Didn't touch on much else he got side tracked by the Nemo money matches.

 

["God's Beard!"]

So we can't really make hit stun return to Vanilla status. We just have to make it -4 on hit on all versions.

I'm saying that -4 makes no sense. Rocket Punch still knocks down, I have no idea why the Ultimate guide doesn't have a -. If it has less hitstun now they pop out sooner, but it should still be a -. It's all very confusing.

 

[Karsticles]

So we can't really make hit stun return to Vanilla status. We just have to make it -4 on hit on all versions.

Also Gonzo made a serious reply to the Marvel patch situation on his "The Show that Sucks". He basically says the same as most people... Nerf Zero, Vergil, Morrigan, Doom plus some high damage characters and nerf TACs. He also thinks like Fanatiq and me that TACs should be reactable or easier to guess/read against. Says Hsien Ko Pendulum should be cancelable. Didn't touch on much else he got side tracked by the Nemo money matches.

Why not just say that Rocket Punch causes a soft knockdown again? What was so bad in Vanilla that it needed to change in the first place? I can only imagine that Capcom thought his post-TAC combos were too good...which is hilarious in retrospect.

And simple-minded people want only simple changes to the game.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";74014588]I'm saying that -4 makes no sense. Rocket Punch still knocks down, I have no idea why the Ultimate guide doesn't have a -. If it has less hitstun now they pop out sooner, but it should still be a -. It's all very confusing.[/QUOTE]
What do you mean? Rocket Punch doesn't cause knock down anymore in Ultimate. That's why Rocket Punch L x HSF whiffs sometimes even after a throw.

 

[Dahbomb]

Then all that is needed on Rocket Punch is the recovery reduced by 10 on air and ground version, HSD remains the same as it is now in Ultimate.

Why not just say that Rocket Punch causes a soft knockdown again? What was so bad in Vanilla that it needed to change in the first place?

Because he got extended combos with it in the air, particularly in the corner. If you reduce the recovery ON TOP of the soft knockdown that's veering into infinite territory.

 

[Karsticles]

Then all that is needed on Rocket Punch is the recovery reduced by 10 on air and ground version, HSD remains the same as it is now in Ultimate.

That doesn't fix the problem of Rocket Punch x HSF sometimes whiffing after a throw at mid-screen. That's a real problem.

 

["God's Beard!"]

It pops people into the air, right? That's a knockdown. Every sweep in the game is a knockdown. They knock people down. Soft and Hard knockdowns are different. As far as I can tell, Rocket Punch is the only move in the game that causes a standard knockdown and still has a specific number for frame data on hit. Maybe they locked it as some sort of balancing issue, I don't know.

The closest move I found was Haggar's Violent Axe, but that counts as a spinning knockdown so there's some other funny business going on there.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";74016403]It pops people into the air, right? That's a knockdown. Every sweep in the game is a knockdown. They knock people down. Soft and Hard knockdowns are different. As far as I can tell, Rocket Punch is the only move in the game that causes a standard knockdown and still has a specific number for frame data on hit. Maybe they locked it as some sort of balancing issue, I don't know.

The closest move I found was Haggar's Violent Axe, but that counts as a spinning knockdown so there's some other funny business going on there.[/QUOTE]
Knockdown = touches the ground, always.
Soft knockdown = touches the ground, always, and immediate recovery
Hard knockdown = touches the ground, always, and OTG-able
Spinning knockdown = touches the ground, always, but is in a spinning animation on the way down (more float time)

Rocket Punch is not a knockdown; the opponent never touches the ground as a result of the move in Ultimate.

 

[Dahbomb]

That doesn't fix the problem of Rocket Punch x HSF sometimes whiffing after a throw at mid-screen. That's a real problem.

The problem is that if you tinker around with Rocket Punch HSD he would then be able to do stuff like full combo into RP xx HSF like he could in Vanilla. I don't know how to properly fix it to be honest.

This is the best I can do:

Recovery improved by 10 frames across all RPs , advantage on block becomes -10 for ground RP and -4 for air RP, improve HSD by 5 frames ground RP becomes +5 on hit (for ground version only as it's only a ground version problem), air Rocket Punch becomes +6 on hit.

In layman's term, RP recovery improved by 10, HSD on ground RP increased by 5 frames.

 

[Karsticles]

The problem is that if you tinker around with Rocket Punch HSD he would then be able to do stuff like full combo into RP xx HSF like he could in Vanilla. I don't know how to properly fix it to be honest.

This is the best I can do:

Recovery improved by 10 frames across all RPs , advantage on block becomes -10 for ground RP and -4 for air RP, improve HSD by 5 frames ground RP becomes +5 on hit (for ground version only as it's only a ground version problem), air Rocket Punch becomes +6 on hit.

In layman's term, RP recovery improved by 10, HSD on ground RP increased by 5 frames.

Who cares if he does Rocket Punch x HSF at the end of a combo? Its damage is worse than Rocket Punch x Plasma Storm.

And I'm not saying let Rocket Punch hit into HSF at the end of a combo, anyway, just off of his ground throws. And I don't know what you mean by "improve HSD by 5 frames".

 

["God's Beard!"]

Knockdown = touches the ground, always.
Soft knockdown = touches the ground, always, and immediate recovery
Hard knockdown = touches the ground, always, and OTG-able
Spinning knockdown = touches the ground, always, but is in a spinning animation on the way down (more float time)

Rocket Punch is not a knockdown; the opponent never touches the ground as a result of the move in Ultimate.

Knockdown = knocks them off their feet
Soft Knockdown = guaranteed hitstun until they hit the ground
Hard Knockdown = guaranteed hitstun until they hit the ground, ends in OTG-state
Spinning Knockdown = special, slower animation that is usually, but not always accompanied by a Soft or Hard Knockdown

This is what they mean. Magneto's H is a knockdown. Vergil's 2H is a soft knockdown. Wesker's palm is a hard knockdown, Violent Axe is a spinning knockdown and the DHC glitch is a spinning knockdown accompanied by a hard knockdown.

 

[Dahbomb]

Who cares if he does Rocket Punch x HSF at the end of a combo? Its damage is worse than Rocket Punch x Plasma Storm.

And I'm not saying let Rocket Punch hit into HSF at the end of a combo, anyway, just off of his ground throws. And I don't know what you mean by "improve HSD by 5 frames".

If he can do RP into HSF then he can do another launcher, knock them down again into RP Plasma Storm. Or loop HSFs. I mean he already has a loopable super in Hard Drive he doesn't need HSF for it, HSF has enough utility as it is.

The improve HSD by 5 frames means now you have 5 more frames for the HSF to be able to connect. If it's just an inconsistency problem this would be able to fix it. Otherwise ground RP will have way more hit on advantage than aerial RP which would be weird.

 

[Karsticles]

If he can do RP into HSF then he can do another launcher, knock them down again into RP Plasma Storm. Or loop HSFs. I mean he already has a loopable super in Hard Drive he doesn't need HSF for it, HSF has enough utility as it is.

The improve HSD by 5 frames means now you have 5 more frames for the HSF to be able to connect. If it's just an inconsistency problem this would be able to fix it. Otherwise ground RP will have way more hit on advantage than aerial RP which would be weird.

Maybe you mean to write "hitstun" instead of "HSD", then.

 

[Dahbomb]

Yeah I meant to say hit stun.

 

[Karsticles]

Sentinel:
+Flight Startup reduced to 8 frames; Flight time increased to 180; Flight movement increased; Sentinel now turns faster when passing by opponents during Flight; Flight now limited by the number of specials used in the air total (3 per jump max).
+Health increased to 1,100,000.
+j.M, c.M, s.S, j.S, and j.H now deal 15% chip damage.
+s.S returned to Vanilla hyper armor status.
+Rocket Punch (all versions) recovery improved by 10 frames; hitstun increased by 5 frames; now -10 on block for the ground version and -4 for the aerial version; ground version +5 on hit, aerial version now +6 on hit.
+Hard Drive given a small vacuum effect on characters it hits; characters no longer drop out.
+Sentinel Force H startup reduced to 30 frames; drones arrive if Sentinel is hit on frame 1; bombs are dropped from a slightly greater height; area of effect slightly increased.
+j.H reduced to 14 frame startup.
-Damage on Plasma Storm and all non-beam normals reduced by 10%.

Assists: Sentinel Force L, Sentinel Force H, c.H

 

["God's Beard!"]

It's called "knockdown". Not a "knockup".
http://streetfighter.wikia.com/wiki/Knockdown
http://sonichurricane.com/articles/sfterms.html

Ask in the FGW thread or anywhere else if you don't believe me. The guide has a lot of stupid definitions and terms that no one uses anywhere else. Sentinel has great "crossover assists"! As if there were another kind of assist.

I don't give a damn. We're talking about frame data that's in the guide here not the ST guide or some bullshit.

"-not all knockdowns in UMVC3 knock the opponent to the turf!"

As long as we're talking about frame data in UMVC3, we're going to use UMVC3 terms. Not SF terms. Those games don't have hitstun decay like UMVC3, they don't have UMVC3's combo engine. Talking about UMVC3 in other games' terms is irrelevant.

Next we won't be able to use the term fuzzy guard for Ryu mixups because that's not what it means to Virtua Fighter players. And Crossover Assist is what the damn game calls it, not the guide.

 

[Dahbomb]

It should say only ground version has its hit stun being increased exclusively, does not apply to air version.

 

[MrKayle]

I had a dream that Capcom released a trailer for the new UMVC3 patch. Their answer for throw tech loop was that after 5 throw techs both characters get dizzy.... lol.

lol

 

[SolarPowered]

Sentinel:
+Flight Startup reduced to 8 frames; Flight time increased to 180; Flight movement increased; Sentinel now turns faster when passing by opponents during Flight; Flight now limited by the number of specials used in the air total (3 per jump max).
+Health increased to 1,100,000.
+j.M, c.M, s.S, j.S, and j.H now deal 15% chip damage.
+s.S returned to Vanilla hyper armor status.
+Rocket Punch (all versions) recovery improved by 10 frames; hitstun increased by 5 frames; now -10 on block for the ground version and -4 for the aerial version; ground version +5 on hit, aerial version now +6 on hit.
+Hard Drive given a small vacuum effect on characters it hits; characters no longer drop out.
+Sentinel Force H startup reduced to 30 frames; drones arrive if Sentinel is hit on frame 1; bombs are dropped from a slightly greater height; area of effect slightly increased.
+j.H reduced to 14 frame startup.
-Damage on Plasma Storm and all non-beam normals reduced by 10%.

Assists: Sentinel Force L, Sentinel Force H, c.H

I feel bad for people who run into this machine. You really gotta know what you are doing to avoid the fate of mutantkind.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Instead of 3 per jump max, you should say fly, unfly, refly so people don't think they get 3 flight uses per jump.

 

[Karsticles]

It should say only ground version has its hit stun being increased exclusively, does not apply to air version.

K.

I feel bad for people who run into this machine. You really gotta know what you are doing to avoid the fate of mutantkind.

And yet he's still worse than his MvC2 incarnation.

 

[Zissou]

So the current voting idea is voting on system changes and then character changes as described earlier, yeah? Communication via email completely out? (probably a good idea just for the sake of transparency)

 

[Karsticles]

So the current voting idea is voting on system changes and then character changes as described earlier, yeah? Communication via email completely out? (probably a good idea just for the sake of transparency)

Right. If you want to put your character votes in, you're welcome to (Dahbomb did), but it's fine to just do system stuff since we're ironing that out first. Note that you cannot change a Y vote to a N vote, so be cautious about what you vote for.

 

[Dahbomb]

Yeah you need to specify somewhere that the 180 frames of flight is all you have per jump... it doesn't matter how you distribute the flight frames you can't getting fucking 540 frames of flight in the air by doing flight cancel 3 times.

 

[Karsticles]

Yeah you need to specify somewhere that the 180 frames of flight is all you have per jump... it doesn't matter how you distribute the flight frames you can't getting fucking 540 frames of flight in the air by doing flight cancel 3 times.

Then why not just link it to total flight frames instead of tethering it to special limitations? This will be awfully complicated if flight is chained to two mechanisms.

 

[JeTmAn81]

I feel bad for people who run into this machine. You really gotta know what you are doing to avoid the fate of mutantkind.

Yeah, Sentinel with those changes seems really scary. Maybe too scary to have 1.1 million health. I'd feel better with 1 million.

 

[Karsticles]

Yeah, Sentinel with those changes seems really scary. Maybe too scary to have 1.1 million health. I'd feel better with 1 million.

For all the changes we made to Sentinel, he still gets destroyed by keepaway due to that huge body; he needs that health.

 

["God's Beard!"]

The reason there's a distinction is because of hitstun decay that only exists in Marvel's engine.

Moves that do knock people to the floor don't at higher levels of decay, like Rapid Slash or Magneto's H. If it used SF's combo engine they would be true knockdowns every time. But it doesn't.

So instead of calling every other move in the goddamn game a reset, we've got a higher level of knockdown varieties and hit states than other games.

Every game has its unique properties. 3D games have wall splats. Hitstun decay creates extra knockdown terms for Marvel.

 

[SolarPowered]

And yet he's still worse than his MvC2 incarnation.

He has to be. Too many of Marvel 3's characters pale in comparison to the Gods.

Yeah, Sentinel with those changes seems really scary. Maybe too scary to have 1.1 million health. I'd feel better with 1 million.

I'm not complaining much. Hsien-Ko with those changes and Ammy will do work against him.

 

[QisTopTier]

I still think you guys should remove firebrand's unblockable and give him comand dash cancelable fireballs to make up for it *and buff him with his gimmick being gone*

 

["God's Beard!"]

Edit: Question on this: then do you not intend for the second flight to be fly-cancelable?

There's no limit on special moves used during flight. But if you use Rocket Punch during the first flight then unfly, you don't get a second flight. But you could S-cancel the first flight then refly.

Or you could fly, do combos with normals,unfly, refly then do as many punches as you could fit.

 

[Karsticles]

I still think you guys should remove firebrand's unblockable and give him comand dash cancelable fireballs to make up for it *and buff him with his gimmick being gone*

I still think this is too good.

He has to be. Too many of Marvel 3's characters pale in comparison to the Gods.

I'm not complaining much. Hsien-Ko with those changes and Ammy will do work against him.

Indeed, you have to look at all the cast changes before judging. A lot of characters are vicious now.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";74027058]There's no limit on special moves used during flight. But if you use Rocket Punch during the first flight then unfly, you don't get a second flight. But you could S-cancel the first flight then refly.

Or you could fly, do combos with normals,unfly, refly then do as many punches as you could fit.[/QUOTE]
S-canceling the first flight probably won't work because j.S isn't special-cancelable. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Zissou]

Right. If you want to put your character votes in, you're welcome to (Dahbomb did), but it's fine to just do system stuff since we're ironing that out first. Note that you cannot change a Y vote to a N vote, so be cautious about what you vote for.

When should system change voting be completed? I generally know how I will vote, but I'd like to know how much time I have to mull things over.