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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT4| Nothing Stops This Patch!

Dahbomb

Member
He actually starts to recover before all the icicles are out. The move doesn't really have active frames for Dante. It goes straight from startup to recovery, and the icicles have a unique active period of 42 frames. The +8 on block is a generalized number, and the one that's taken into account from point blank. If you hit a character with the very last icicle of Crystal, you can actually be +14 or more on hit, since you can link a Stinger from it. You basically have to take into account spacing, how deep into active frames the move is, how many hits there are, etc before you can calculate advantage on hit/block. You can't really just look at the frame data in the book and say it's +8 in every situation.

It's the same reason why Vergil's Round Trip is +89 on block; he recovers while active frames are still out and forcing block stun on someone, so technically he has 89 frames to do something while they're still in blockstun before they're taken out of blockstun.
Yea that's why I didn't include RT.

But Judgment Cut's block stun is pretty straight forward. It's always +8 so that move definitely has high block stun.

Anyway you can check out my Sentinel, Hsien Ko and Ghost Rider frame data to see if its good. I think it's fine although Ghost Rider's is definitely very wonk. You have to cut down recovery in HALF to make this super decent. I am with you that Capcom might not go to that extreme. I think if the move hits all characters properly and pushes back a lot it should be fine.
 
I incorporated Dahbomb's changes.

Also, since we have 4/5 committee members chatting, Dahbomb wants to get rid of double air dashes for Storm. I'm okay with this, but I want the Superjump -> Float -> Assist call back. Thoughts?

Ummm... I could, but it'd take a long time.
I'm lazy and don't wanna... lol
Well, don't expect me to. :p

In XF2, Katana-Rama has the same amount of recovery as the proposed change has, and you can loop Katana-Rama L four times as before they pop out(the startup becomes 10 frames, but they're propped pretty high). If we're increasing hitstun as well, I feel like it'd be best to stay on the safe side.
+Katana-rama! hitstun significantly increased; now -3 on block; -1 on hit.

Good?

Maybe make Chimichangas safer?
I want the change so Deadpool can AA with Katana-rama! It's a great move.

Mainly because you don't want to mess with the recovery of the move, since that's how he gets his level ups. If you reduce it, he'll probably be able to get more snapshots with extensions, making it easier to level up. The move only has 13 frames of blockstun right now, so you can increase it without pushblock messing things up(as is, pushblocking makes it safer than it actually is).
I'm okay with this.
Honestly, I'd just make it so it forces a ground bounce regardless before messing with the startup of moves. I never understood why he, Akuma and Hawkeye have that problem, but others can OTG just fine. Seems dumb.
It could be a difficult coding issue; better to just increase the startup time slightly.

I added the rest of the changes, I think.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I'm okay with this, but I want the Superjump -> Float -> Assist call back.
LOL this isn't supposed to be a bargain.

If someone held me to gun point and asked me to pick one I would choose super jump -> float. We have at least already experienced that in Vanilla.
 
LOL this isn't supposed to be a bargain.
It's not like we're bargaining two unrelated things. We're talking about Storm having some kind of special air mobility + power to call assists. I originally wanted Float calls, but settled for the double air dashes.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I don't know man... maybe the meta game has changed since Vanilla and people are better at protecting their assists or punishing them. I really want to know Capcom's reason for removing it, they must have had some good reason.

Now that we are giving her better zoning options, giving her the ability to call assists at SJ height would IMO be too good. Just call Jam Session while floating in mid air and use improved Typhoons.
 

Frantic

Member
But Judgment Cut's block stun is pretty straight forward. It's always +8 so that move definitely has high block stun.
Judgment Cut also works more or less the same way as Crystal. Bubble has active frames of 30, recovery of 30. It also has five hits, so you recover near the last hit, which has a set amount of blockstun that results in +8.

Anyway you can check out my Sentinel, Hsien Ko and Ghost Rider frame data to see if its good. I think it's fine although Ghost Rider's is definitely very wonk. You have to cut down recovery in HALF to make this super decent. I am with you that Capcom might not go to that extreme. I think if the move hits all characters properly and pushes back a lot it should be fine.
They all work out. The Hsien-Ko one is good(I wasn't thinking about reduction of hitstun in addition to recovery), the Sentinel one seems fine. Ghost Rider... well, the move was designed terribly(Capcom made a lot of poor design decisions) but it should work. If it could pushback full screen ala Magnetic Shockwave, and maybe have multiple hits on the final hit to provide blockstun, it'd definitely be safer.

+Katana-rama! hitstun significantly increased; now -3 on block; -1 on hit.

Good?
Eh... increasing the hitstun and making it -1 on hit doesn't really work, because it's actually + on hit as is...

The main problem with the move(that isn't a huge problem outside of super extended combos) is that after a certain point Chimichangas whiffs after an L or M version. At this point, it'd probably just be better to axe it since it almost never comes up outside of milking out 5k in a combo.

I want the change so Deadpool can AA with Katana-rama! It's a great move.
He can chain into Chimichangas from a blocked Katana-rama so it'd be the same thing. And it'd actually provide some protection vs AA chicken blocking since he could chain into it once they hit the ground.

The only problem I can see with making Chimichangas safer on block is after a Quick Work... although I'm not sure if he can cancel into it from Quick Work on block since it's a one/two frame cancel right now and I have enough trouble getting it to work on hit. >_>

It could be a difficult coding issue; better to just increase the startup time slightly.
I don't think it'd be that hard. Just extend the window of time they have where the ground bounce will occur. But it doesn't matter to me that much, just felt like bringing it up.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Karst are you doing the write up now or when we have finalized the stuff? Also are you doing it for every character?
 

Leetirl

Neo Member
I haven't been keeping up too well with the posts but a couple things:

Does raging demon do 900k because of how ridiculous it is to land?

Does Hulk need a wavedash? I'm just saying it doesn't seem like he needed one before.

Love what you guys have done with Skrull.
 
Karst are you doing the write up now or when we have finalized the stuff? Also are you doing it for every character?
When we have finalized everything, and yes, every character.

I can't do the write-up now because some people keep suddenly objecting to things that have been cemented, and it's not worth my time to explain things that may not be there in a week, or have new things to explain.

I haven't been keeping up too well with the posts but a couple things:

Does raging demon do 900k because of how ridiculous it is to land?

Does Hulk need a wavedash? I'm just saying it doesn't seem like he needed one before.

Love what you guys have done with Skrull.
Hulk basically can't move without using Gamma Charge effectively. Once you get him out, it's just too easy to keep him out. If you look at the characters who can't crouch-cancel their ground dashes, they only fall into two categories:
1) Characters that suck (Hulk, Tron).
2) Characters with air dashes (Doom, Dormammu).

I think that you have to give a character an incredible number of tools to justify no cancelable ground dashes.

Raging Demon does 900K because it's the goddamn Raging Demon. Also, because we've given almost every single level 3 a post-hyper follow-up, but not Raging Demon. Hypers need to be comparable to be worth landing, and right now it's almost always worth Akuma's time to save the meter for beams instead of Raging Demon, especially since he already has a level 1 invincible hyper.
 

Leetirl

Neo Member
Hulk basically can't move without using Gamma Charge effectively. Once you get him out, it's just too easy to keep him out. If you look at the characters who can't crouch-cancel their ground dashes, they only fall into two categories:
1) Characters that suck (Hulk, Tron).
2) Characters with air dashes (Doom, Dormammu).

I think that you have to give a character an incredible number of tools to justify no cancelable ground dashes.

Raging Demon does 900K because it's the goddamn Raging Demon. Also, because we've given almost every single level 3 a post-hyper follow-up, but not Raging Demon. Hypers need to be comparable to be worth landing, and right now it's almost always worth Akuma's time to save the meter for beams instead of Raging Demon, especially since he already has a level 1 invincible hyper.

Ah right, I see what you mean about Hulk/Tron. As for Raging Demon I like the idea, but I have a hard time believing that it will be approved by Capcom. Let's hope it does though.

Oh one other thing though, since Hulk's dash puts him in the air, doesn't that mean that a ground dash would require additional animations?
 
Ah right, I see what you mean about Hulk/Tron. As for Raging Demon I like the idea, but I have a hard time believing that it will be approved by Capcom. Let's hope it does though.

Oh one other thing though, since Hulk's dash puts him in the air, doesn't that mean that a ground dash would require additional animations?
His ground dash doesn't put him in the air, it just looks that way. He can ground dash x ground hyper, for example.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I can't do the write-up now because some people keep suddenly objecting to things that have been cemented, and it's not worth my time to explain things that may not be there in a week, or have new things to explain.
Nothing is really cemented yet though.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Also:

XtbpLeM.png


The machine is back.
 

smurfx

get some go again
one thing i wanted to add to haggar is a ground bounce after his level 3. he should have something in his arsenal that he can get huge damage off of if he is alone.
 

Dahbomb

Member
The Swiss Cheese change on Wolverine is a nerf not a buff. As is the last Voomerang change for Joe.

Also pretty sure everyone was against throws putting a distance outside cr.L range. I thought the distance was just enough so that you don't get grabbed again in that same range (to prevent throw tech loop).

The amount of buffs we dished out in that suggest list is crazy. I think the ratio is like 20 buffs to every 1 nerf. These are the only characters who got one or higher nerf on them:

Doom (a bunch of nerfs)
Vergil (a bunch of nerfs)
Zero (a bunch of nerfs)
Viper (a bunch of nerfs)
Dante (bold block, Jam Session nerf)
Morrigan (damage nerf on Soul Fists and Shell Kick nerf)
Dorm (damage nerf plus Flame Carpet)
Wesker (launcher, glasses and phantom dance)
Nova (throw game and Human Rocket)
Strider (Vajra nerf)
Spencer (damage nerf)
Chris (damage nerf)
Magneto (damage nerf)
Wolverine (damage nerf)
Iron Man (damage nerf)
Hulk (damage nerf)
Skrull (damage nerf)
Sentinel (damage nerf)
Shuma Gorath (damage nerf)
Strange (FotF nerf)
Spider Man (no more Web Glide block)


We definitely took the whole "nerf a few top tiers, buff the rest a lot... tone down damage" mantra very seriously.
 
one thing i wanted to add to haggar is a ground bounce after his level 3. he should have something in his arsenal that he can get huge damage off of if he is alone.
I wouldn't mind it placing opponents in a crumple state.

The Swiss Cheese change on Wolverine is a nerf not a buff. As is the last Voomerang change for Joe.

Also pretty sure everyone was against throws putting a distance outside cr.L range. I thought the distance was just enough so that you don't get grabbed again in that same range (to prevent throw tech loop).
I want throws to put opponents slightly outside of s.L/c.L distance.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I want throws to put opponents slightly outside of s.L/c.L distance.
I know you want that but that's not what the rest of the people want. Would change the ground throw game too much. Throwing out a cr.L after throw tech is a legitimate option and most cr.Ls can be up/backed against in that situation.
 
Committee Members:
Respond to my damn e-mail!

I know you want that but that's not what the rest of the people want. Would change the ground throw game too much. Throwing out a cr.L after throw tech is a legitimate option and most cr.Ls can be up/backed against in that situation.
Have you asked everyone?
 

Dahbomb

Member
God's Beard was definitely against it. A few other people on the board expressed their dissatisfaction with it particularly Darksim. I haven't really heard anyone defend it really. A lot of this was during that phase where people were confused about Wolverine's cr.L but since he has a 6 frame cr.L the whole argument of "I don't want to eat a Wolverine cr.L after a throw" fell flat and we never really talked about it again.
 
God's Beard was definitely against it. A few other people on the board expressed their dissatisfaction with it particularly Darksim. I haven't really heard anyone defend it really. A lot of this was during that phase where people were confused about Wolverine's cr.L but since he has a 6 frame cr.L the whole argument of "I don't want to eat a Wolverine cr.L after a throw" fell flat and we never really talked about it again.
Well who cares about Wolverine. Replace him with Amaterasu or something.
 

Dahbomb

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73904673]I don't know when I'm gonna be around for all this serious business. I'm in my finals period for the summer through monday.[/QUOTE]
Then we should wrap this up either tomorrow or Tuesday. I don't want to have this on a weekend if you are studying for exams.
 
Next Tuesday? Ech...I'm starting to think we should do another approach...

What if I just posted a section, and everyone voted whenever they logged on? I would keep track of who has voted "yes" on what until we get it all done. I think that would work out fine.
 
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73906283]You mean like a google hangout?[/QUOTE]
I just mean doing it here - I think I know how to do this right, give me a moment.
 
Rules: I have posted a list for every category of changes. Each committee member will fill the list out with a "Y" or "N" next to teach category. Example:

Features - Y
TACs - N
Throws - Y
X-Factor - N
Damage - Y
Combos - Y

If you post a "Y" for "Yes", then you are done for that section. If you put a "N" for "No", list specifically what in that section you do not approve of. All votes are being taken with respect to the master change list at the beginning of this thread. Any and all issues should be brought up. We will strive for 5 "Y"s for each subject. Going 4/5 on votes will be a last resort. If any member expresses dissatisfaction with a section, that section will be discussed until either unanimous support or a 4/5 vote can be accomplished. I will keep an excel sheet listing every member's approval.

Here is the list for easy copy-pasting; please take a day or so to look over each section carefully to be sure you approve of it; "Y" votes may not be withdrawn once submitted:

Features
TACs
Throws
X-Factor
Damage
Combos
Assists
Other
Akuma
Amaterasu
Arthur
Captain America
Chris
Chun-li
C. Viper
Dante
Deadpool
Dr. Doom
Dormammu
Dr. Strange
Felicia
Firebrand
Frank West
Ghost Rider
Haggar
Hawkeye
Hsien-ko
Hulk
Iron Fist
Iron Man
Jill
Magneto
M.O.D.O.K.
Morrigan
Nemesis
Nova
Phoenix
Wright
R. Raccoon
Ryu
Sentinel
She-Hulk
Shuma-Gorath
Spencer
Spider-man
Storm
Strider
Super-Skrull
Taskmaster
Thor
Trish
Tron Bonne
Vergil
Viewtiful Joe
Wesker
Wolverine
X-23
Zero
 
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73909413]
  • Features - Y
  • TACs - Y
  • Throws - N
  • X-Factor - Y
  • Damage - N
  • Combos - Y
  • Assists - N
  • Other - Y
[/QUOTE]
If you put a "N" for "No", list specifically what in that section you do not approve of. All votes are being taken with respect to the master change list at the beginning of this thread. Any and all issues should be brought up.
If you put a "N" for "No", list specifically what in that section you do not approve of. All votes are being taken with respect to the master change list at the beginning of this thread. Any and all issues should be brought up.
If you put a "N" for "No", list specifically what in that section you do not approve of. All votes are being taken with respect to the master change list at the beginning of this thread. Any and all issues should be brought up.
!!!!!!
 

Dahbomb

Member
Is this from Days of Future Past?
No its Ultron from Avengers 2....

Karst I will give my vote stuff in a minute. Its a lot to consider.

Features - Y
TAC - N because I want the 2nd option in there as well as an alternative solution
Throw - N Ground throw tech distance
X Factor - Y
Damage Changes - Y
Combo Changes - Y
Assist Changes - Y
Other - Y
 

Dahbomb

Member
Take a day or two to think on it all if you need to. Smart decisions are better than timely ones in this case.
I will vote on stuff I am sure on or stuff I don't really know much about and would rather other people sort it out. Right now I just submitted system changes stuff.
 
No its Ultron from Avengers 2....

Karst I will give my vote stuff in a minute. Its a lot to consider.

Features - Y
TAC - N because I want the 2nd option in there as well as an alternative solution
Throw - N Ground throw tech distance
X Factor - Y
Damage Changes - Y
Combo Changes - Y
Assist Changes - Y
Other - Y
I'll include the second option in the writeup. The patch notes should have a unified vision. Because if we include the second option, then we also have to include various fixed for the second option, like TAC infinites and the XFC TAC glitch. That would make the notes very confusing.

I'll give on the throw change and rewrite it as thus:
*Ground throw techs put enough distance between both teching characters to ensure that another ground throw cannot be initiated immediately after the tech.

Does this receive your support? (And GBs, since I know he is opposed to the current format).
 

Dahbomb

Member
Yeah that's fine.

Also I noticed that the XF2 new value is wrong. It should be 60%. Each incremental XF is 20% up (40/60/80). Otherwise XF2 becomes the most bang for your buck. And old X factor values used to be 40/70/100 which was 30% increase per XF value.

Akuma - Y
Amaterasu - Y
Arthur - Y
Captain America - N, Needs Backflip invincibility increased and recovery reduced
Chris - N, Grenade H is too powerful in the neutral especially with new overhead while Grenade M is unused. I feel this has to be changed slightly.
Chun Li - Y
C Viper - N, and this was my fault for not remembering. The character has a non TAC infinite which probably needs to be patched or at least addressed. The rest of the changes are a Y from me
Dante - N, Hammer buff is unneeded
Deadpool - Y although we need to properly write down the new frame data for Katanarama!
Doom - Y
Dormammu - Y
Frank West - N, Snapshots needs to be more - on block at least -17 as suggested
Felicia - Y
Ghost Rider - N, you need to make an extra comment under Maelstrom that the whips have to hit properly so that there is no gap where opponents are not in block stun or something. Makes it easy to punish Ghost Rider on chicken block during the move and would make our changes mostly useless otherwise.
Haggar - N, you can keep chip on pick but remove the projectile negation
Hsien Ko - Y
Iron Fist - Y
Iron Man - Y
Jill - N, health still too much and Double Knee drop is too fast right now at 10 frame start up reduction
Magneto - N, because we need to figure out a Magnetic Blast nerf. The rest is fine.
MODOK - Y
Morrigan - Y
Nemesis - Y
Nova - N, need to properly define what lowered block stun actually does and how much frame disadvantage he would be because this is a very vague change
Phoenix - N, New hyper needs to be ground only
Phoenix Wright - Y
Rocket Raccoon - Y
Ryu - Y
Sentinel - N, because the hit stun on Rocket Punch should not be to Vanilla level it should be somewhere in between. Also no hyper armor on his launcher
She Hulk - Y
Shuma - Y
Spencer - N, no Bionic Arm nerf
Storm - N, no double air dash
Strider - Y
Skrull - N, Brutal Pile Bunker is way too safe at -2. Needs to be more negative
Taskmaster - Y
Thor - N because Mighty Speech is still too goofy
Tron - Y
Vergil - Y
Joe - Y
Wesker - No, glasses mechanic change
Wolverine - Y
X23 - Y
Zero - Y


These are characters I feel we need to cut the fat down on as they are already good characters but are getting buffed significantly:

Dr Strange
Firebrand
Trish
Hawkeye
Trish
 
Yeah that's fine.

Also I noticed that the XF2 new value is wrong. It should be 60%. Each incremental XF is 20% up (40/60/80). Otherwise XF2 becomes the most bang for your buck. And old X factor values used to be 40/70/100 which was 30% increase per XF value.
Good catch; changes made; are you now a "Y" for all system change categories?
 

Dahbomb

Member
I can't find the Viper infinite. Marlinpie says he has it but I am unsure which infinite it is. But the character definitely has one.
 
I can't find the Viper infinite. Marlinpie says he has it but I am unsure which infinite it is. But the character definitely has one.
You are right that she does, and it's good that you remembered. Let me know when you find it and I'll just add it in - I'm sure no one will be opposed.
 

Dahbomb

Member
You are right that she does, and it's good that you remembered. Let me know when you find it and I'll just add it in - I'm sure no one will be opposed.
I am pretty sure it's related to her TK feinting. You can just add "adjust TK feinting to prevent infinite" until I have more of a source.

I do know she had one in Vanilla that MarlinPie discovered although I don't know if it was patched out or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE4J4XtQSyQ
 

vg260

Member
Spider Man (no more Web Glide block)

I really have no say in any of this stuff, but to me this seems unnecessary and takes away a pretty big tool that is is part of what makes him unique. Sasa summed up why this nerf is counter to the character's style of play pretty well previously. There was also probably some reason the designers felt it necessary to keep it as is when going to ultimate.
 
I really have no say in any of this stuff, but to me this seems unnecessary and takes away a pretty big tool that is is part of what makes him unique. Sasa summed up why this nerf is counter to the character's style of play pretty well previously. There was also probably some reason the designers felt it necessary to keep it as is when going to ultimate.
No one gets an air dash that puts their opponent in hit stun and lets them block while traveling. No one.

We gave him lots of good stuff to make up for the nerf.
 
  • Features - Y
  • TACs - Y
  • Throws - N opposed to increased distances
  • X-Factor - Y
  • Damage - N opposed to 20% damage nerf
  • Combos - Y
  • Assists - N opposed to no mashing assists during superjump resets
  • Other - Y
 
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