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[Karsticles]

The 3rd Strike patch was done and submitted to Capcom for over a year before it finally came out. The programming side was done. It took Capcom a year for their internal people to do whatever tests they do. What, is there one guy checking every patch for every game?

Clearly 3S is a better investment than Marvel. ;-)

 

[Dahbomb]

I don't know anything about coding, patching or anything of the sort. I don't think it's as simple as changing one line of coding though. Capcom could have an intern try to patch TAC infinites but when the patch is released some other bug is discovered that needs addressing. This is a very common thing in patching games, something gets patched and some seemingly innoucous or even unrelated element of the game gets bugged.

Imagine if they release a TAC infinite removal patch but they also re-introduce the throw tech glitch. What would the community do in this instance? Wait for another patch, play the latest version or play the previous version? You still need a lot of people to test the game especially one with so many variables and of course those guys that code can't test it. You also can't test most of the game in a few days especially if you have a few guys testing it.


TLR version: Patching even a single bug requires more time and effort than one guy changing a line of coding in one day. You have to account for actually testing the change.

 

[Karsticles]

TAC infinites are directly the result of one line of code, though. It's a simple if->then situation.

Patching the XFC TAC glitch would take some work, though, as would other things like the camera-moving glitches. Playable Galactus would be a simple fix.

Not that it matters anyway.

 

[FSLink]

TAC infinites are directly the result of one line of code, though. It's a simple if->then situation.

Patching the XFC TAC glitch would take some work, though, as would other things like the camera-moving glitches. Playable Galactus would be a simple fix.

Not that it matters anyway.

It's really not always that simple. The simplest is to not give infinite hitstun while in the air so they don't have to figure out a way for the game to properly detect the player hits the ground (the game detects this but not properly, this probably wouldn't be difficult but it's not a simple 1 code thing like you're assuming). But say they figure out what's wrong and their fix did work there's still QA and such to make sure everything else still works as intended.
The Marvel issue is the main thing though, I agree. I just don't agree with you calling it a 1 line fix (should still be an easy fix if they didn't do some shoddy coding for the engine itself)

 

[Karsticles]

It's really not always that simple. The simplest is to not give infinite hitstun while in the air so they don't have to figure out a way for the game to properly detect the player hits the ground (the game detects this but not properly, this probably wouldn't be difficult but it's not a simple 1 code thing like you're assuming). But say they figure out what's wrong and their fix did work there's still QA and such to make sure everything else still works as intended.
The Marvel issue is the main thing though, I agree. I just don't agree with you calling it a 1 line fix (should still be an easy fix if they didn't do some shoddy coding for the engine itself)

The theoretical line of code is probably something like:

if (character.position.y ==0){
hitstundeterioration = 500}

Okay, so technically two lines, and four if you space it out like I do. It's pretty damn easy, though. Just check for the y coordinate of the character's base every frame during a TAC (it will be an imbedded conditional). If the value is ever 0 (the base - or whatever it would be in their coordinate scheme), then set the hitstun to a crazy high number. It wouldn't be a perfect fix, but it would be good enough. There's probably a better solution, but obviously we don't have their code on hand.

Or they could just delete the TAC section of the code entirely. That would be fine, too. ;-) Maybe even move over a few documents and delete Vergil, too. :-D

 

[Dyni Crippler]

Maybe even move over a few documents and delete Vergil, too. :-D

Heh.

 

[shaowebb]

TAC infinites are directly the result of one line of code, though. It's a simple if->then situation.

Patching the XFC TAC glitch would take some work, though, as would other things like the camera-moving glitches. Playable Galactus would be a simple fix.

Not that it matters anyway.

I'm sorry, but how are you so certain its like this? Was there a code rip or a stream showing it somewhere? If its tied directly to physics or movement by not calling subroutines or using an array improperly it could be way more complex than this. If you were using an array and writing values to it then a change across the way it read/writes that value could really mess up a lot of memory locations. Those are just a couple of scenarios that are off the top of my head and this doesn't even take into account potential for loop scenarios or magnitude to get messedup on other attacks in terms of push pull properties on hit or block.

It may very well be easy, but on a big project like this it is quite likely a bit more complex than that as you reuse command lines often to lessen the file size and all the computational effort. I'm betting on subroutines and arrays and any change to those involves quite a bit of trouble shooting because simply checking out and making a small change to a subroutine checks out aaaaaaaaaaaaaall the other code and messes with them...its very easy for it to simply screw up commands due to crap like a version number change happening in a subroutine, it then checking out a file that called that subroutine and it auto changes the version number listed in a point id array and then BAM a hard scripted line of code they made just for THAT piece of code no longer has the version number it was hard coded to call of said subroutine in existence anymore and it immediately fails. You haven't even changed code in this scenario...just the version id number and it can screw up stuff depending on how programs are written and believe me many folks try to tip toe around large infrastructure on deadlines like arrays and a ton of subroutines and junk if they can just write a hard coded line and be done in a minute without anyone noticing too much of a size spike.

Trust me...this shit is pretty close to home right now. Even if it is one line of code...its likely it will mess with a lot more than you imply unless you have some really inside coder stuff. If so...pass it my way

 

[Karsticles]

I'm sorry, but how are you so certain its like this? Was there a code rip or a stream showing it somewhere? If its tied directly to physics or movement by not calling subroutines or using an array improperly it could be way more complex than this. If you were using an array and writing values to it then a change across the way it read/writes that value could really mess up a lot of memory locations. Those are just a couple of scenarios that are off the top of my head and this doesn't even take into account potential for loop scenarios or magnitude to get messedup on other attacks in terms of push pull properties on hit or block.

It may very well be easy, but on a big project like this it is quite likely a bit more complex than that as you reuse command lines often to lessen the file size and all the computational effort. I'm betting on subroutines and arrays and any change to those involves quite a bit of trouble shooting because simply checking out and making a small change to a subroutine checks out aaaaaaaaaaaaaall the other code and messes with them...its very easy for it to simply screw up commands due to crap like a version number change happening in a subroutine, it then checking out a file that called that subroutine and it auto changes the version number listed in a point id array and then BAM a hard scripted line of code they made just for THAT piece of code no longer has the version number it was hard coded to call of said subroutine in existence anymore and it immediately fails. You haven't even changed code in this scenario...just the version id number and it can screw up stuff depending on how programs are written and believe me many folks try to tip toe around large infrastructure on deadlines like arrays and a ton of subroutines and junk if they can just write a hard coded line and be done in a minute without anyone noticing too much of a size spike.

Trust me...this shit is pretty close to home right now. Even if it is one line of code...its likely it will mess with a lot more than you imply unless you have some really inside coder stuff. If so...pass it my way

You are right that I don't know how good Capcom is at coding, and whether their code might be an endless maze of indiscernible, comment-less arrays. If their code is solid, though, they should be able to handle it in a small period of time. MikeZ makes huge numbers of changes to Skullgirls on a weekly basis, and he's just one man. He put an entire new character into the game with 3 days of coding. Sure, there are testing periods and such, but there's no reason to think that resolving TAC infinites would be a back-breaking chore.

 

[Azoth]

You are right that I don't know how good Capcom is at coding, and whether their code might be an endless maze of indiscernible, comment-less arrays. If their code is solid, though, they should be able to handle it in a small period of time. MikeZ makes huge numbers of changes to Skullgirls on a weekly basis, and he's just one man. He put an entire new character into the game with 3 days of coding. Sure, there are testing periods and such, but there's no reason to think that resolving TAC infinites would be a back-breaking chore.

" I think [PS3 is] a waste of everybody's time," he said. "Investing in the Cell, investing in the SPE gives you no long-term benefits."

"There's nothing there that you're going to apply to anything else. You're not going to gain anything except a hatred of the architecture they've created. I don't think they're going to make money off their box. I don't think it's a good solution,"

- Gabe Newell, of Valve

Reason, reporting for duty.

The idea that you're correlating Mike Z releasing patches to a PC executable, to something that is supposed to run on PS3/360 architecture, is kind of silly.

I'm sorry, but I don't think either of us have even a small idea of what kind of work, or reworking, would be required to change that.

 

[FSLink]

It's also tons easier to coordinate changes like that with a smaller development team. Although big companies could still learn a lot from indie studios, logistically they work differently.

 

[Karsticles]

" I think [PS3 is] a waste of everybody's time," he said. "Investing in the Cell, investing in the SPE gives you no long-term benefits."

"There's nothing there that you're going to apply to anything else. You're not going to gain anything except a hatred of the architecture they've created. I don't think they're going to make money off their box. I don't think it's a good solution,"

- Gabe Newell, of Valve

Reason, reporting for duty.

The idea that you're correlating Mike Z releasing patches to a PC executable, to something that is supposed to run on PS3/360 architecture, is kind of silly.

I'm sorry, but I don't think either of us have even a small idea of what kind of work, or reworking, would be required to change that.

You know MikeZ patches the PS3/360 versions too, right? He just doesn't do the weekly beta updates because they need to go through certification, so it would never matter anyway.

 

[biosnake20]

double dante infinite

 

[Karsticles]

How is the one Dante in permanent flight?

 

[Trace]

How is the one Dante in permanent flight?

Glitches.

 

[Seyavesh]

How is the one Dante in permanent flight?

it's a byproduct of the nova snap glitch. the assist character that comes in keeps any state changes they do permanently so that includes installs and flight

helpers and spiral swords don't last though

 

[shaowebb]

You are right that I don't know how good Capcom is at coding, and whether their code might be an endless maze of indiscernible, comment-less arrays. If their code is solid, though, they should be able to handle it in a small period of time. MikeZ makes huge numbers of changes to Skullgirls on a weekly basis, and he's just one man. He put an entire new character into the game with 3 days of coding. Sure, there are testing periods and such, but there's no reason to think that resolving TAC infinites would be a back-breaking chore.

Double edged sword. Mike Z is just one man, but he wrote the whole thing pretty much himself. Marvel likely didn't bottleneck itself the way Mike does. Makes it faster but its harder to make changes when you didn't create each part of the thing yourself. I work with a guy who doesn't even indent his stuff *shiver* and several who often forget and make "adjustments" without version updates or proper comments when they get into a hurry.

Its not easy. It never is. Mike can do all kinds of crazy stuff because its all setup and ready to do so because he did it himself. Its much harder in a group made batch of code to find what you need and get it changed to how you want it to work when you aren't 100% on all the other things folks have done relative to that code.

 

[Karsticles]

Double edged sword. Mike Z is just one man, but he wrote the whole thing pretty much himself. Marvel likely didn't bottleneck itself the way Mike does. Makes it faster but its harder to make changes when you didn't create each part of the thing yourself. I work with a guy who doesn't even indent his stuff *shiver* and several who often forget and make "adjustments" without version updates or proper comments when they get into a hurry.

Its not easy. It never is. Mike can do all kinds of crazy stuff because its all setup and ready to do so because he did it himself. Its much harder in a group made batch of code to find what you need and get it changed to how you want it to work when you aren't 100% on all the other things folks have done relative to that code.

Hahaha, sounds fun.

I indent like crazy. To me, it is like grammar in a sentence. If the grammar is off, I start to have problems reading.

 

[onionfrog]

Double edged sword. Mike Z is just one man, but he wrote the whole thing pretty much himself. Marvel likely didn't bottleneck itself the way Mike does. Makes it faster but its harder to make changes when you didn't create each part of the thing yourself. I work with a guy who doesn't even indent his stuff *shiver* and several who often forget and make "adjustments" without version updates or proper comments when they get into a hurry.

No indentation in their code? Sometimes they don't include comments?

Shaowebb plz ;_;

 

[shaowebb]

Hahaha, sounds fun.

I indent like crazy. To me, it is like grammar in a sentence. If the grammar is off, I start to have problems reading.

No indentation in their code? Sometimes they don't include comments?

Shaowebb plz ;_;

Yeah...shit is cringe worthy but right there it is in code their using in the industrial company I'm with (not a small one either...hint they had the biggest sign at the olympics). Doesn't matter that some of this shit is in Fortran its fucking code and you don't do that without indenting. The comments thing is a god damned hassle too. Checked forever to find out if something was checked out by mistake due to a subroutine change, but turns out it had literal code differences between the plant and the R&D code we test with. Someone had gone in, changed shit on the plant and NOT put in version comments to distinguish which changes happened first. Had to use Beyond Compare historian to track down a time to even find out which was the current one and even then the required comment on that save was just the dude mashing the keypad with bullshit to get through the save screen.

Wasn't even old code...it was done in May of this year ;_;

 

[Karsticles]

Yeah...shit is cringe worthy but right there it is in code their using in the industrial company I'm with (not a small one either...hint they had the biggest sign at the olympics). Doesn't matter that some of this shit is in Fortran its fucking code and you don't do that without indenting. The comments thing is a god damned hassle too. Checked forever to find out if something was checked out by mistake due to a subroutine change, but turns out it had literal code differences between the plant and the R&D code we test with. Someone had gone in, changed shit on the plant and NOT put in version comments to distinguish which changes happened first. Had to use Beyond Compare historian to track down a time to even find out which was the current one and even then the required comment on that save was just the dude mashing the keypad with bullshit to get through the save screen.

Wasn't even old code...it was done in May of this year ;_;

I thought you were working on game stuff.

 

[shaowebb]

I thought you were working on game stuff.

My own. I currently do system support in the industrial field. I have 2 degrees. One is in Computer Science Animation and the other is a dual degree in Power Plant Technology/Process Technology Operations.

I spent a year in the game industry and it sucked ass with how the market currently is. No stability, and often no pay...just promises of full time work and even then nothing guaranteed longer than 2 years. I went back into industrial stuff, and now I'm about to move again after being bought out by a power company. Full boiler maker union in a few weeks and within 3 years the pay will near 6 figures. Best part is its still 8 hour shift outside of the overtime which means I now have enough time and money to build my own stuff.

At least I'll have the time stuff soon. I started trying to put together a crew back in December before finishing out my last 21 hours in a single semester and it got too busy to keep pushing. Plus the engine I was going to use eventually just outright had its publisher admit that it wasn't going to handle what I needed. I'll be using a Unity based thing once I get settled in and since then I've gotten okay with C#, VBnet, C++ and Fortran (who the hell uses this?). Now I can animate, code (fairly. Still study a lot), and produce my own stuff and all it took was leaving the industry lol.

It'll take time, but I got it. Its ideas on paper, and quite a lot of engine tooling for me over the next year. Modeling and animation is stuff I've non stop boarded and poked between college months, the current job, and the move stuff related to the new one.

Aint nothing free. Gotta work to pull anything off and I'm putting in quite a bit. Just glad its all coming together well enough to allow me to follow my dreams without falling apart financially to do so like that first year in the industry.

 

[Karsticles]

My own. I currently do system support in the industrial field. I have 2 degrees. One is in Computer Science Animation and the other is a dual degree in Power Plant Technology/Process Technology Operations.

I spent a year in the game industry and it sucked ass with how the market currently is. No stability, and often no pay...just promises of full time work and even then nothing guaranteed longer than 2 years. I went back into industrial stuff, and now I'm about to move again after being bought out by a power company. Full boiler maker union in a few weeks and within 3 years the pay will near 6 figures. Best part is its still 8 hour shift outside of the overtime which means I now have enough time and money to build my own stuff.

At least I'll have the time stuff soon. I started trying to put together a crew back in December before finishing out my last 21 hours in a single semester and it got too busy to keep pushing. Plus the engine I was going to use eventually just outright had its publisher admit that it wasn't going to handle what I needed. I'll be using a Unity based thing once I get settled in and since then I've gotten okay with C#, VBnet, C++ and Fortran (who the hell uses this?). Now I can animate, code (fairly. Still study a lot), and produce my own stuff and all it took was leaving the industry lol.

It'll take time, but I got it. Its ideas on paper, and quite a lot of engine tooling for me over the next year. Modeling and animation is stuff I've non stop boarded and poked between college months, the current job, and the move stuff related to the new one.

Aint nothing free. Gotta work to pull anything off and I'm putting in quite a bit. Just glad its all coming together well enough to allow me to follow my dreams without falling apart financially to do so like that first year in the industry.

I dig. I'm learning Unity myself right now. I just finished the basics of the GUI this week (hotkeying abilities from a menu), and now I'm going to work on inventory management stuff. My wife is learning to draw, and I'm going to invest in a Cintiq 13HD for her so she can get digital. The only area I don't really have covered at all is music/sound. Not sure what to do about that right now...

Anyway, maybe in a few years we'll have the project done, and it'll sell well enough so that we can drop our current full-time jobs and do this for a living. I would definitely prefer it...

 

[shaowebb]

I dig. I'm learning Unity myself right now. I just finished the basics of the GUI this week (hotkeying abilities from a menu), and now I'm going to work on inventory management stuff. My wife is learning to draw, and I'm going to invest in a Cintiq 13HD for her so she can get digital. The only area I don't really have covered at all is music/sound. Not sure what to do about that right now...

Anyway, maybe in a few years we'll have the project done, and it'll sell well enough so that we can drop our current full-time jobs and do this for a living. I would definitely prefer it...

Keep at it. Thats the only real advise their is. That and don't bet everything on it. Take care of family first. I got lucky. I almost ended up back doing 12 hour swingshift as Power Plant Operator. High dollar but no life. I just found 2 back to back perfect positions for this kind of thing and had spent most of my life in and out of industrial operations and have a LOT of overlap in my degrees. Took like a decade to get enough skillsets and training to land this.

As far as sound goes, wait till its needed. Use place holder on all cast till its near the end. Then choose what sort of genre (or multiple genres) fit. Then I honestly think either go for a pro group that does this like Hyper Duck or something or possibly go for a net person like 331 e-rock or someone from the OG Remix list of sound engineers to join you. Voice acting to a minimal IMO if you are on budget. Hit sounds work fine for many situations. It worked back in the day so if the game is good and you are low on cash then go that route and possibly dive into crowdfunding for that part of it because VA is expensive. If you can choose a design that allows you to work within your limitations easily. If there isn't a theme yet you might try looking into some sort of loose theme that would make sense to go low VA with.

By the way Cintiq is nice, but Intuos 4 works too. If this is your first time into the pool know that a good tablet helps but the difference between Cintiq results and Intuos results IMO is largely just the artist's experience. Cintiq is closer to real life paper, but I've used both that sort of thing and Intuous and once you learn to draw without watching your hands (couple of days) on an Intuos the extra cost doesn't really mean much IMO. To each their own but its a bit overkill if you ask me.

We should swap stories as the months roll on. We'll probably each be hitting roadblocks as we pass milestones left and right and since we both went with Unity we may have useful stories to swap. I'm going the route of modding [Universal Fighting Engine in Unity since my C# is limited for now. If you haven't seen it there is some real potential for you to shortcut some stuff if it meets your needs.

 

[Karsticles]

Keep at it. Thats the only real advise their is. That and don't bet everything on it. Take care of family first. I got lucky. I almost ended up back doing 12 hour swingshift as Power Plant Operator. High dollar but no life. I just found 2 back to back perfect positions for this kind of thing and had spent most of my life in and out of industrial operations and have a LOT of overlap in my degrees. Took like a decade to get enough skillsets and training to land this.

As far as sound goes, wait till its needed. Use place holder on all cast till its near the end. Then choose what sort of genre (or multiple genres) fit. Then I honestly think either go for a pro group that does this like Hyper Duck or something or possibly go for a net person like 331 e-rock or someone from the OG Remix list of sound engineers to join you. Voice acting to a minimal IMO if you are on budget. Hit sounds work fine for many situations. It worked back in the day so if the game is good and you are low on cash then go that route and possibly dive into crowdfunding for that part of it because VA is expensive. If you can choose a design that allows you to work within your limitations easily. If there isn't a theme yet you might try looking into some sort of loose theme that would make sense to go low VA with.

By the way Cintiq is nice, but Intuos 4 works too. If this is your first time into the pool know that a good tablet helps but the difference between Cintiq results and Intuos results IMO is largely just the artist's experience. Cintiq is closer to real life paper, but I've used both that sort of thing and Intuous and once you learn to draw without watching your hands (couple of days) on an Intuos the extra cost doesn't really mean much IMO. To each their own but its a bit overkill if you ask me.

We should swap stories as the months roll on. We'll probably each be hitting roadblocks as we pass milestones left and right and since we both went with Unity we may have useful stories to swap. I'm going the route of modding [Universal Fighting Engine in Unity since my C# is limited for now. If you haven't seen it there is some real potential for you to shortcut some stuff if it meets your needs.

Zero interest in voice acting. I actually prefer my games in general without them.

There is a NeoGAF indie developer thread - I will probably post about what I'm working on there as we move along. I hope to see you post there, too.

I'm not betting everything on this. The wife and I are still keeping our full-time jobs. At the age of 29, I am actually making more than $30k/yr with 3 degrees for the first time ever. Yay!, I think. I will check out the list of guys you mentioned. I might just do the sound stuff on my own, since programming will take less time than all the art stuff I'm demanding of my wife.

The Intuos stuff is good, but I don't think she's interested in that kind of experience. We talked a lot about it. We both work two jobs, so we'll be able to pay for the Cintiq. I found a refurbished model for $800 on a website. Skullgirls lead animator Mariel Cartwright just bought one, so I'm curious how it's working out for her.

 

[shaowebb]

Zero interest in voice acting. I actually prefer my games in general without them.

There is a NeoGAF indie developer thread - I will probably post about what I'm working on there as we move along. I hope to see you post there, too.

I'm not betting everything on this. The wife and I are still keeping our full-time jobs. At the age of 29, I am actually making more than $30k/yr with 3 degrees for the first time ever. Yay!, I think. I will check out the list of guys you mentioned. I might just do the sound stuff on my own, since programming will take less time than all the art stuff I'm demanding of my wife.

The Intuos stuff is good, but I don't think she's interested in that kind of experience. We talked a lot about it. We both work two jobs, so we'll be able to pay for the Cintiq. I found a refurbished model for $800 on a website. Skullgirls lead animator Mariel Cartwright just bought one, so I'm curious how it's working out for her.

Good man. I look forward to seeing your progress as you go. And I got to agree on the VA stuff. So help me listening to Nova and Doom combos drives me up the wall. I keep thinking of the times of Nova saying "YOU LIKE...YOU LIKE" over and over again and it cringes me. Quotes mid match are good for like a few times then they are pretty bleh IMO. End quote and intro is fine though also hypers getting them to yell if fitting and fun. No one dislikes hearing "The Chaos Dimension!" or "Inferno!" when it happens.

Good Luck Karsticles. I'm eager to find out more about the GGPO Unity stuff folks have been talking about. I know Beast's Fury was planning to use it, but I'm not certain if anyone has done it yet on Unity to ask questions about setting it up when the time comes.

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

Then again, I look down on swapping between ultras in USFIV based on matchup!

I'm curious Karst why?

 

[onionfrog]

Yeah...shit is cringe worthy but right there it is in code their using in the industrial company I'm with (not a small one either...hint they had the biggest sign at the olympics). Doesn't matter that some of this shit is in Fortran its fucking code and you don't do that without indenting. The comments thing is a god damned hassle too. Checked forever to find out if something was checked out by mistake due to a subroutine change, but turns out it had literal code differences between the plant and the R&D code we test with. Someone had gone in, changed shit on the plant and NOT put in version comments to distinguish which changes happened first. Had to use Beyond Compare historian to track down a time to even find out which was the current one and even then the required comment on that save was just the dude mashing the keypad with bullshit to get through the save screen.

Wasn't even old code...it was done in May of this year ;_;

Damn. This would be a nightmare scenario for me. Proper comments and documentation are just as important as the code itself.

 

[Karsticles]

Good man. I look forward to seeing your progress as you go. And I got to agree on the VA stuff. So help me listening to Nova and Doom combos drives me up the wall. I keep thinking of the times of Nova saying "YOU LIKE...YOU LIKE" over and over again and it cringes me. Quotes mid match are good for like a few times then they are pretty bleh IMO. End quote and intro is fine though also hypers getting them to yell if fitting and fun. No one dislikes hearing "The Chaos Dimension!" or "Inferno!" when it happens.

Good Luck Karsticles. I'm eager to find out more about the GGPO Unity stuff folks have been talking about. I know Beast's Fury was planning to use it, but I'm not certain if anyone has done it yet on Unity to ask questions about setting it up when the time comes.

Do you have a link to the GGPO Unity stuff? First I've heard of this.

I think repetitive quotes are a delicate area. They can really make a game memorable and fantastic if done right. Personally, I like Dormammu's quotes, but Nova's drive me nuts.

I'm curious Karst why?

I feel like you should pick your stuff against whatever you face. Play what you play, don't try to win by changing the matchup. It's like swapping assists based on opponent.

 

[shaowebb]

Do you have a link to the GGPO Unity stuff? First I've heard of this.

Thats the thing. Its all talk. Beasts Fury talked they were going for it, but I've yet to hear more than folks just talking about the creator of GGPO trying to get it to work in Unity. I know it runs in C++ based code hunky dory. Skullgirls is proof of that. Thing is Unity is in C#. All I got on this is quotes from other indie folk so its vaporware.

Most I know is its likely happening as Unity is something he's obviously wanting it to run on, but it hasn't happened yet. We're both in early pre alpha drawing board test the waters stages...that means we have time and can wait so we're in the good for now.

Some bridges you just cross when you get there. All I know is the only other engine I was looking at other than Unity was the Skullgirls engine because they said they would eventually put it out there, but from what I've read from the Fighting is Magic folk even if you have it I think you still need to setup a way to draw and setup hitboxes even with the engine. Those guys and Lab Zero both built seperate tools to do that for them. Plus no GUI to my knowledge..;pure C++. Could be wrong if Mike Z has added anything to the engine since it definitely isn't out and about yet. Either way...I don't really have other engines appropriate for a fighter. Its build your own or use whats on market which is old fighter maker PC 02 stuff (not as bad as it sounds), Shit you can't commercialize like MUGEN (as bad as it sounds), EF 12 (nearly did this but japanese comments are sketchy to understand the translations they gave and the engine is only really suited to Tekken/Soul Calibur stuff...not ready) and thats about it.

Im using Universal Fighting Engine as my front end GUI for this in Unity since Unity is easy to mod, and work with and has a very active community I can turn to. It also has a GUI setup for this stuff with hitbox editor etc from Universal Fighting Engine. Only thing I need is netcode and all I can do is deal with that once there is actually enough game to worry...which is a long way off.

First I hear about GGPO in Unity finally being supported it'll be the two of us partying. Hell most developers in Unity would party that shit. Means a LOT of things for the indies the day that gets finished.

 

[Karsticles]

Thats the thing. Its all talk. Beasts Fury talked they were going for it, but I've yet to hear more than folks just talking about the creator of GGPO trying to get it to work in Unity. I know it runs in C++ based code hunky dory. Skullgirls is proof of that. Thing is Unity is in C#. All I got on this is quotes from other indie folk so its vaporware.

Most I know is its likely happening as Unity is something he's obviously wanting it to run on, but it hasn't happened yet. We're both in early pre alpha drawing board test the waters stages...that means we have time and can wait so we're in the good for now.

Some bridges you just cross when you get there. All I know is the only other engine I was looking at other than Unity was the Skullgirls engine because they said they would eventually put it out there, but from what I've read from the Fighting is Magic folk even if you have it I think you still need to setup a way to draw and setup hitboxes even with the engine. Those guys and Lab Zero both built seperate tools to do that for them. Plus no GUI to my knowledge..;pure C++. Could be wrong if Mike Z has added anything to the engine since it definitely isn't out and about yet. Either way...I don't really have other engines appropriate for a fighter. Its build your own or use whats on market which is old fighter maker PC 02 stuff (not as bad as it sounds), Shit you can't commercialize like MUGEN (as bad as it sounds), EF 12 (nearly did this but japanese comments are sketchy to understand the translations they gave and the engine is only really suited to Tekken/Soul Calibur stuff...not ready) and thats about it.

Im using Universal Fighting Engine as my front end GUI for this in Unity since Unity is easy to mod, and work with and has a very active community I can turn to. It also has a GUI setup for this stuff with hitbox editor etc from Universal Fighting Engine. Only thing I need is netcode and all I can do is deal with that once there is actually enough game to worry...which is a long way off.

First I hear about GGPO in Unity finally being supported it'll be the two of us partying. Hell most developers in Unity would party that shit. Means a LOT of things for the indies the day that gets finished.

I'm not actually working on something that needs netcode right now, so it's more of a curiosity than anything to me. Designing a fighting game is far beyond my present skill level.

Wild that you've gone through so many engines like that, though!

 

[Professor Beef]

I feel like you should pick your stuff against whatever you face. Play what you play, don't try to win by changing the matchup. It's like swapping assists based on opponent.

Play to win.

 

[Karsticles]

Play to win.

Says the THawk main and Ryu anchor user!

I consider "play to win" to be a comment on playing the game, not the meta. Like, no one would say Abegen isn't playing to win just because he uses his team.

 

[Professor Beef]

Says the THawk main and Ryu anchor user!

I consider "play to win" to be a comment on playing the game, not the meta. Like, no one would say Abegen isn't playing to win just because he uses his team.

Hey, I switch Ultras all the time depending on the matchup!

 

[Seyavesh]

I feel like you should pick your stuff against whatever you face. Play what you play, don't try to win by changing the matchup. It's like swapping assists based on opponent.

i really don't understand this from a competitive mindset.. it's really strictly non-competitive because it demands people purposefully limit their options

also it's a really strange statement to me in general because it's limiting players to one specific set of options rather than believing that they have the ability to competitively use a wide range of 'em.

like saying that infiltration should play akuma 100% of the time because that's the character he is most known for when he's shown he's equally competitive with other characters that work better in various matchups

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I feel like you should pick your stuff against whatever you face. Play what you play, don't try to win by changing the matchup. It's like swapping assists based on opponent.

That's the whole idea of having options though. I switch assists and ultras all the time based on my opponents playstyle and which character they pick.

Like I pick U2 with T.Hawk a majority of the time, but if I notice that my opponent is really disciplined and stays on the ground, or they pick a character that doesn't need to jump around much, then I go with U1.

 

[DR2K]

Community could just ban things like TAC infinites and certain character combinations.

 

[Zissou]

Community could just ban things like TAC infinites and certain character combinations.

Slippery slope- will never happen.

 

[shaowebb]

If somebody Project M-ed Marvel I'd come back. I'm still wishing for TvC more at this point though. Such a good game. Probably be easier to fix its flaws than Marvel.

 

[LakeEarth]

Play to win.

Back in Vanilla Marvel, there was a guy who's entire gameplan was to land the Deadpool/Trish glitch (where you're infinitely stuck in her trap) and win by timeout. Playing to win can suck.

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

I feel like you should pick your stuff against whatever you face. Play what you play, don't try to win by changing the matchup. It's like swapping assists based on opponent.

Okay I can sympathize with this. This has been my mentality with Marvel. I always feel like I lost when I change the order of my team at the start based on the matchup. It's just the thought of I wanna be the very best that I can possibly be with this exact setup no matter what is thrown against me. So if this goes as far as assists and ultra's I understand your reasoning.

Play to win.

Play to win under your own conditions.

 

[Karsticles]

Hey, I switch Ultras all the time depending on the matchup!

Yeah, but you play grapplers. You aren't picking up Yun, right?

i really don't understand this from a competitive mindset.. it's really strictly non-competitive because it demands people purposefully limit their options

also it's a really strange statement to me in general because it's limiting players to one specific set of options rather than believing that they have the ability to competitively use a wide range of 'em.

like saying that infiltration should play akuma 100% of the time because that's the character he is most known for when he's shown he's equally competitive with other characters that work better in various matchups

Think of it this way: if everyone counterpicked, then matches would look like this in the endgame: A counterpicks B and wins. Then B counterpicks A. Now A counterpicks B's new choice.

You can't tell me that if this were the standard practice you wouldn't find it just a bit distasteful. Everyone loves to see a counterpick fail. Everyone. Remember when Noel Brown would scrub his way over to Phoenix after two losses in Vanilla? He always got laughed at.

Akuma has a good matchup against most of the AD cast. I think it is lame to counterpick his few bad matchups because someone can't handle it. Exception to when Infiltration picked Hakan, because that was a beautiful set with some history behind it.

That's the whole idea of having options though. I switch assists and ultras all the time based on my opponents playstyle and which character they pick.

Like I pick U2 with T.Hawk a majority of the time, but if I notice that my opponent is really disciplined and stays on the ground, or they pick a character that doesn't need to jump around much, then I go with U1.

If somebody Project M-ed Marvel I'd come back. I'm still wishing for TvC more at this point though. Such a good game. Probably be easier to fix its flaws than Marvel.

I don't think TvC2 will happen for a long time. I don't even know how a Wii exclusive fighter with no appeal to the western audience was approved during Inafune's tenure at all! Capcom needs a heavy hitter ASAP for the new generation. Even Darkstalkers would be a mistake, I wager.

 

[FSLink]

Back in Vanilla Marvel, there was a guy who's entire gameplan was to land the Deadpool/Trish glitch (where you're infinitely stuck in her trap) and win by timeout. Playing to win can suck.

It's more hilariously awful if they have Thor. Do the glitch, hard tag in Thor, Mighty Speech until timeout.

 

[Dahbomb]

Think of it this way: if everyone counterpicked, then matches would look like this in the endgame: A counterpicks B and wins. Then B counterpicks A. Now A counterpicks B's new choice.

I don't see anything wrong with that.

People laugh at counter picks when it's clear someone has no idea what they are doing with a counter pick and then proceed to get bodied.

No one laughed when FChamp picked Morrigan in GF against Apologyman and won using it. That was an effective use of counter picking.


Until counter picking gets banned in tournaments, it's a valid strategy that should be used if the player is able to do so.

I think it is lame to counterpick his few bad matchups because someone can't handle it.

"Lame" is irrelevant. The highest chance of winning is what counts.

If Infiltration thinks he has a higher chance of winning against a Guile using Gouken instead of Akuma then he should use Gouken. Likewise if he thinks he has a better chance winning against a Rufus with Ryu than with Akuma then he should use Ryu.

In the end character choice is irrelevant... player decision and skill is all that should matter. Until they add in character locks for tournaments, counter picks will and should happen. Saying stuff like "counter picking is lame" is just veering into scrub mentality territory.

 

[shaowebb]

It's more hilariously awful if they have Thor. Do the glitch, hard tag in Thor, Mighty Speech until timeout.

Fun times

 

[Karsticles]

I don't see anything wrong with that.

People laugh at counter picks when it's clear someone has no idea what they are doing with a counter pick and then proceed to get bodied.

No one laughed when FChamp picked Morrigan in GF against Apologyman and won using it. That was an effective use of counter picking.


Until counter picking gets banned in tournaments, it's a valid strategy that should be used if the player is able to do so.



"Lame" is irrelevant. The highest chance of winning is what counts.

If Infiltration thinks he has a higher chance of winning against a Guile using Gouken instead of Akuma then he should use Gouken. Likewise if he thinks he has a better chance winning against a Rufus with Ryu than with Akuma then he should use Ryu.

In the end character choice is irrelevant... player decision and skill is all that should matter. Until they add in character locks for tournaments, counter picks will and should happen. Saying stuff like "counter picking is lame" is just veering into scrub mentality territory.

I think it highlights the worst aspect of fighting games, which is inherent advantages between players. In an ideal world, every character is of equal power but has a unique style of play. To me, counterpicking is stepping away from a skill-based game by trying to give yourself inherent advantages. You don't want fighting games to become Pokemon...

Fun times

Akuma looks like he's enjoying that speech a little too much in the second half.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I think it highlights the worst aspect of fighting games, which is inherent advantages between players. In an ideal world, every character is of equal power but has a unique style of play. To me, counterpicking is stepping away from a skill-based game by trying to give yourself inherent advantages. You don't want fighting games to become Pokemon...

Haha, you should be playing Guilty Gear and Blazblue then.

 

[Dahbomb]

Recognizing the time when you need to counter pick is a skill itself (or rather it's a demonstration of knowledge and experience). Not everyone can counter pick and win with it. The more characters you play, the less focus you have on a single character.

The game starts at the character select screen as they say. That screen is just as important to the impact of the final round KO.

 

[Karsticles]

Haha, you should be playing Guilty Gear and Blazblue then.

Man, BlazBlue has some crazy bad matchups. I used to main Tager!

I'll pick up Xrd when it comes out, no doubt. I'm waiting for a single good aesthetic design in BlazBlue, though. Most of the cast looks horrendous.

Recognizing the time when you need to counter pick is a skill itself (or rather it's a demonstration of knowledge and experience). Not everyone can counter pick and win with it. The more characters you play, the less focus you have on a single character.

The game starts at the character select screen as they say. That screen is just as important to the impact of the final round KO.

Answer this: is it good that fighting games have counterpicks, or would it be better if everyone were on even footing?

 

[Frantic]

I kinda like the whole "counter-picking" stuff myself, just because to me it adds another layer of strategy. Although, I'm mainly thinking along the lines of switching my team order for certain matchups, or switching assists for certain matchups. Particularly, if I was an actual tournament player, I would almost always pick Hopscotch assist over Low Voltage assist against Wolverine players, for example. I would lose offense, but gain a valuable defensive assist that would force Wolverine to slow his offense and allow me offense.

I do like seeing the counterpicks in SF4 where player A picks sub that beats player B's main, player B switches to sub that beats player A's sub, player A switches to main that beats player B's sub. Mainly cuz they still lose sometimes, showing that you still need skill to back up "good/easy" matchups.

 

[Dahbomb]

Answer this: is it good that fighting games have counterpicks, or would it be better if everyone were on even footing?

Counter picking is a result of characters having different strengths and weaknesses. In an ideal world there would be no point to counter picking if every character had all 5-5 match ups. But we don't live in a world where there is even one fighting game like that so counter picking exists.

Would it be better if everyone was on an equal footing regardless of character choice? Of course but that situation doesn't exist so we can't really talk about it other than on a hypothetical level.


Also if you don't like counter picking you should play Tekken. No one counter picks in Tekken... in fact counter picking is mostly a 2D fighter thing.