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[The Mango Sentinel]

Man, BlazBlue has some crazy bad matchups. I used to main Tager!

I'll pick up Xrd when it comes out, no doubt. I'm waiting for a single good aesthetic design in BlazBlue, though. Most of the cast looks horrendous.

It's the life of a grappler. He has it much better off than Capcom grapplers. At least he has the tools to keep you close and 3 good guesses means it's a wrap for the opponent.

All I was implying is that Aksys makes their characters offense so goddamn brutal that every character usually has a chance, especially in Guilty Gear. I don't think I've seen so many different characters win tournaments.

In BlazBlue, Kokonoe makes everyone irrelevant though.

 

[Karsticles]

Counter picking is a result of characters having different strengths and weaknesses. In an ideal world there would be no point to counter picking if every character had all 5-5 match ups. But we don't live in a world where there is even one fighting game like that so counter picking exists.

Would it be better if everyone was on an equal footing regardless of character choice? Of course but that situation doesn't exist so we can't really talk about it other than on a hypothetical level.


Also if you don't like counter picking you should play Tekken. No one counter picks in Tekken... in fact counter picking is mostly a 2D fighter thing.

Okay, so we would be better off if counterpicking didn't exist - glad we can agree on that.

Tekken sucks, I'm not playing that just because I don't like to counterpick. I don't even get angry when people counterpick me.

It's the life of a grappler. He has it much better off than Capcom grapplers. At least he has the tools to keep you close and 3 good guesses means it's a wrap for the opponent.

All I was implying is that Aksys makes their characters offense so goddamn brutal that every character usually has a chance, especially in Guilty Gear. I don't think I've seen so many different characters win tournaments.

In BlazBlue, Kokonoe makes everyone irrelevant though.

The thing about grapplers is that I feel like I'm mixing myself up half the time. Go for a grab, eat an overhead into a full combo. Go for an anti-air, get hit by a ground string. Go for a low, eat a DP. I'm not a fan of games that have that sort of rock/paper/scissor right up close and personal.

 

[Dahbomb]

Apparently I am not in the "know" and the Marvel 3 meta has shifted where Wolverine is a better character than Zero. And Wolverine beats Zero in the match up.

Also Firebrand goes even with Zero.

Someone please educate me on this.

 

[Karsticles]

Apparently I am not in the "know" and the Marvel 3 meta has shifted where Wolverine is a better character than Zero. And Wolverine beats Zero in the match up.

Also Firebrand goes even with Zero.

Someone please educate me on this.

Pfft, no.

I even once said to a very good Zero player that Firebrand was just a shitty version of Zero, and the Zero player agreed.

 

[Seyavesh]

firebrand is an example of the power of matchup knowledge. the char himself objectively is worse but if nobody uses him at that high level then suddenly his tools and the nature of his game plan become much stronger. so he is allowed success. it used to be the same with Chris g's early morrigan play but he's developed the char and changed the competitive environment enough to where it's not the same anymore

 

[Dahbomb]

Shitty version is kinda of under selling him when even being a lesser form of Zero makes him a terror against some of the Mid even High tier characters.

But that's not the point... the point was that Firebrand some how goes even against Zero in the match up which I just don't see how that is. Firebrand's main tool of moving around and catching people by surprise with Bon Voyage can get stuffed out and punished by a simple air Buster. The match up is really more about about who can get above the other first and apply pressure (so if FB manages to get in that position he is at an advantage) but other than that Zero is at an advantage at every other space except jab range.


Also Apologyman has surpassed the point of where people lose to him due to match up unfamiliarity. He plays long ass sets against FChamp and still bodies him frequently (they are about even in match ups actually). FChamp knows the FB/Magneto match up, he knows about the character but he still loses to Apologyman.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I'd rather fight a good Zero than a good Firebrand ANY day. Zero is better though, don't get me wrong.


Oh and I think Wolverine beats Zero unless the Zero player is playing lame (which he should be). Zero is no joke when he decides to go full zoning.

 

[Frantic]

I just gloss over Deckard Cain's posts about Marvel at this point. They're just a step away from being as mindblowing as "Dante is midtier" with midtier somehow being within the top 15 characters, and Jam Session not being good enough to be in the top 5 assists.

But yeah, Firebrand is only "even" if Zero doesn't have Jam Session, and even then it's not really even.

 

[Karsticles]

firebrand is an example of the power of matchup knowledge. the char himself objectively is worse but if nobody uses him at that high level then suddenly his tools and the nature of his game plan become much stronger. so he is allowed success. it used to be the same with Chris g's early morrigan play but he's developed the char and changed the competitive environment enough to where it's not the same anymore

I agree with this. So many people eat a c.L after Bon Voyage because they think the move must be negative on block and start mashing. Hardly anyone pushblocks Bon Voyage, which you should always do.

Shitty version is kinda of under selling him when even being a lesser form of Zero makes him a terror against some of the Mid even High tier characters.

But that's not the point... the point was that Firebrand some how goes even against Zero in the match up which I just don't see how that is. Firebrand's main tool of moving around and catching people by surprise with Bon Voyage can get stuffed out and punished by a simple air Buster. The match up is really more about about who can get above the other first and apply pressure (so if FB manages to get in that position he is at an advantage) but other than that Zero is at an advantage at every other space except jab range.


Also Apologyman has surpassed the point of where people lose to him due to match up unfamiliarity. He plays long ass sets against FChamp and still bodies him frequently (they are about even in match ups actually). FChamp knows the FB/Magneto match up, he knows about the character but he still loses to Apologyman.

Bon Voyage is like +16 on block. It's not getting punished by anything.

I'd rather fight a good Zero than a good Firebrand ANY day. Zero is better though, don't get me wrong.


Oh and I think Wolverine beats Zero unless the Zero player is playing lame (which he should be). Zero is no joke when he decides to go full zoning.

Haha, what? Any time I see Firebrand on a team I rejoice. The character is totally free in so many matchups if you know how to handle him. He doesn't even have solo mix-ups without spending meter. No high/low game, no left/right game, and no command grabs. He just has good pressure and priority. He eats through people who have no patience.

I just gloss over Deckard Cain's posts about Marvel at this point. They're just a step away from being as mindblowing as "Dante is midtier" with midtier somehow being within the top 15 characters, and Jam Session not being good enough to be in the top 5 assists.

But yeah, Firebrand is only "even" if Zero doesn't have Jam Session, and even then it's not really even.

If Zero doesn't have an anti-air, then there might be a case. The main issue is that Zero can have two great neutral assists, but Firebrand can only have one. Firebrand's second assist needs to be lockdown-oriented for unblockables. However, he also can't survive just with Jam Session assist, so ZMC teams will always have an answer for him while Firebrand won't have a similar answer. Part of why I like my team is that it gives Firebrand a beam assist that also anti-airs, so I tend to do pretty well against Zero players. I just stay away from Zero until I get a lucky Mystic Ray hit.

 

[Dahbomb]

Bon Voyage is like +16 on block. It's not getting punished by anything.

I was talking about whiff punishment. As in Firebrand does Bon Voyage mid screen but because of the angle of Buster it makes it really easy to snipe Firebrand out of it as Zero.

Not to mention that Zero can fill the screen with Lightning bolt that make it really hard for FB to move around properly without getting hit by those lasers.


Who does Firebrand loses to? Genuine question for my knowledge. I expect Firebrand to lose in these match ups:

Morrigan - Everyone knows this
Magneto - It's close but I slightly favor Magneto. Well placed EMDs give FB trouble, Shockwave can disrupt his approaches and Mag Blasts are generally better at occupying space than FB's fireballs.
Dorm (if set up) - Not sure how Firebrand does if Dormammu is properly set up, I don't think he does quite well. But if the opposite is true and Firebrand is on Dorm then I feel this is really hard for Dorm.
Zero - Buster destroys Bon Voyage angle of approach. Lightning cutting the screen in half gives him issue. Zero out ranges FB at any range further than jab range.
Vergil - Better priority at any range further than jab range. I don't think it's completely free for Vergil, Firebrand can definitely whiff punish his normals really easily with Bon Voyage. Helm Breaker cuts down his approaches pretty hard I would imagine.

 

[Karsticles]

I was talking about whiff punishment. As in Firebrand does Bon Voyage mid screen but because of the angle of Buster it makes it really easy to snipe Firebrand out of it as Zero.

Gotcha.

Also, Angelic posted this a while ago; interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpNpUJIkRHM&list=UUBILhJSywJs-Ahqxcw9jKFQ&index=8

Also, this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgLJA1JumRo&list=UUBILhJSywJs-Ahqxcw9jKFQ&index=11

And this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAxgvglz0rk&index=13&list=UUBILhJSywJs-Ahqxcw9jKFQ

And this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skgPI4BNDKw&index=16&list=UUBILhJSywJs-Ahqxcw9jKFQ

LOL Hard Drive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebg0mWO9_NU&list=UUBILhJSywJs-Ahqxcw9jKFQ&index=17

The Dormammu bnb no one will ever do on stream:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXXg-IfhVjs&list=UUBILhJSywJs-Ahqxcw9jKFQ&index=29

 

[Azoth]

What do you have against counterpicking? That's ridiculous.

Counterpicking is one of the benefits of knowing more characters than your opponent. It rewards knowledge and game versatility. We wouldn't be better off in a game that counterpicking didn't exist in, because then we would lose the extra plane of skill involving learning more than one character, and learning what every character is weak to in regards to other matchups, and introduces the entire dynamic of how much time you can spend on any one character; is it more useful to know how to play 3 characters, with 250 hours of experience each, or 1 character, with 750 hours of experience?

I myself run two teams, with very different point characters, and pick which team will be more effective based on the opponent. As it stands, matchup charts exist. How things would be if every matchup was 5-5 notwithstanding(as I stated, I feel that would remove an entire plane of skill and versatility), in the game and world we live in where that is NOT the case, counterpicking is still a good thing.

I don't know how you think this hypothetical scenario where two players pick a counterpick every game to put their opponent at a ~3-7 matchup is any worse than the real scenario we experience right now, where a player specializing in his character endures a ~3-7 matchup for the whole set because he doesn't know any other characters to the degree of competency that he knows the disadvantaged one.

That said, zero definitely > firebrand. Saying Firebrand doesn't have mixups is ridiculous, though. His hi/low game is fantastic with any sort of lockdown, and the number of characters that have actual "solo mixups" they can do from neutral without risking their neck is pretty close to 0(for instance, Zero and Magneto do not; wolverine is the only character that comes to mind, and his also costs meter). Much like Magneto, if you get stuck blocking with Firebrand ontop of you, you're probably going to get hit.

Firebrand's problem is that he's too limited in synergy. He requires Skrull, a thoroughly mid tier character, to be top tier, and needs some way to extend his lackluster damage, such as a good rawtag, TAC, or DHC character. Zero is more versatile in who he can make use of, and those he does make good use of are also high tier.

 

[Dahbomb]

Technically Wolverine has no "solo" mix up either.

Instant overhead requires an obscene tall character like Sentinel or requires an assist to help confirm it or a fuzzy set up or x factor... all of which are about the same as the requirement for instant overhead with Firebrand (you need an assist, meter, obscene tall character or x factor).

Berserker Slash requires meter/x factor or assist to get anything out of. Without those factors it's a high risk low reward solo mix up tool.


So this whole business of "character has no solo mix up" is kinda dumb to be honest especially when said character is played as a point. Firebrand is by no means on the same level as Chris who has nothing to open you up with even when he has you locked down and has assists. If you get locked down by Firebrand you are getting opened up... period.

 

[Frantic]

Who does Firebrand loses to? Genuine question for my knowledge. I expect Firebrand to lose in these match ups:

As far as my mains go, I would argue Strider wins between the two, though it's not by a huge margin. Between his normals, Formation B safety and pressure, teleports, fast ground movement, and Formation C being in the prime spot for all of Firebrand's approaches makes it difficult for him to deal with Strider - be it on defense or offense. Admittedly, I'm thinking with him on point, and with a team like mine (Strider/Strange/Dante),so depending on the assists it might go more in Firebrand's favor. I don't really have a whole lot of good Firebrand experience with Strider on point, but I've played a few with him on point, and it feels in his favor.

Dante has all the tools necessary to fight Firebrand even solo, but he has to be extremely careful since everything is slow to startup. If you mistime something with Dante, you're probably going to eat a Bon Voyage. Dante/Vajra is extremely efficient against Firebrand, though.

Trish is more or less even against him, imo. Neither one has a clear edge, but I would say that Trish has an easier time as she can make it harder for Firebrand to come to her than vice-versa.

As far as "solo mixups" go, Strider sorta has solo mixups. Dash in low or dash in double-jump instant overhead j.H(that can crossup) and is an OS airthrow. You can upback it, sure, but he can do it when you wouldn't expect. Been practicing so I can do it consistently. Other than that, I can't think of any "solo mixups" that don't require something else to get the benefit.

 

[Professor Beef]

I just gloss over Deckard Cain's posts

fixed that for you

 

[Karsticles]

Call me ridiculous, then!

Technically Wolverine has no "solo" mix up either.

Instant overhead requires an obscene tall character like Sentinel or requires an assist to help confirm it or a fuzzy set up or x factor... all of which are about the same as the requirement for instant overhead with Firebrand (you need an assist, meter, obscene tall character or x factor).

Berserker Slash requires meter/x factor or assist to get anything out of. Without those factors it's a high risk low reward solo mix up tool.


So this whole business of "character has no solo mix up" is kinda dumb to be honest especially when said character is played as a point. Firebrand is by no means on the same level as Chris who has nothing to open you up with even when he has you locked down and has assists. If you get locked down by Firebrand you are getting opened up... period.

Berserker Slash is better than anything Firebrand has for solo mix-ups. Firebrand has nothing unless the opponent is pinned.

Also, solo mix-ups are really important as a feature. It's a huge part of why Zero is such a terror.

I was talking about whiff punishment. As in Firebrand does Bon Voyage mid screen but because of the angle of Buster it makes it really easy to snipe Firebrand out of it as Zero.

Not to mention that Zero can fill the screen with Lightning bolt that make it really hard for FB to move around properly without getting hit by those lasers.


Who does Firebrand loses to? Genuine question for my knowledge. I expect Firebrand to lose in these match ups:

Morrigan - Everyone knows this
Magneto - It's close but I slightly favor Magneto. Well placed EMDs give FB trouble, Shockwave can disrupt his approaches and Mag Blasts are generally better at occupying space than FB's fireballs.
Dorm (if set up) - Not sure how Firebrand does if Dormammu is properly set up, I don't think he does quite well. But if the opposite is true and Firebrand is on Dorm then I feel this is really hard for Dorm.
Zero - Buster destroys Bon Voyage angle of approach. Lightning cutting the screen in half gives him issue. Zero out ranges FB at any range further than jab range.
Vergil - Better priority at any range further than jab range. I don't think it's completely free for Vergil, Firebrand can definitely whiff punish his normals really easily with Bon Voyage. Helm Breaker cuts down his approaches pretty hard I would imagine.

Shockwave actually isn't great at disrupting Firebrand just because his air dashes are command dashes, and they don't last long. I've had a lot of people try and punish my command dashes with hypers and I still (somehow) get to block in time. The matchup is definitely in Magneto's favor, though, just because he has so many more options. I would say 5.5-4.5, though. It's a stressful matchup, but I never feel overwhelmed.

Dormammu is tough because he can cut off Bon Voyage. I never fear Firebrand when I play Dormammu.

Zero is bad.

Vergil isn't scary at all. Helm Breaker has to be done pre-emptively against Bon Voyage, so Vergil players just kind of have to hope to catch it randomly. Plus he's almost never on point, so he gets unblockable'd anyway!

Hawkeye is very frustrating. j.H locks out Bon Voyage, and the arrows do the rest. A lengthy projectile war is the way to go here, and usually it ends up with me DHCing Firebrand out once I get to two bars for a Chaotic Flame punish, and then beating Hawkeye with Dormammu + Mystic Ray mix-ups.

Wolverine is pretty tough because his normals are huge and his pressure is better than Firebrand's. The best thing for Wolverine to do is to just turtle while calling Plasma Beam and then hit confirming off of it. It's a pretty annoying matchup that forces both sides to play it slow.

Nova's moronic air range has led to some stupid stuff.

Dr. Strange is frustrating because he can keep Firebrand out and Firebrand can't pressure and mix-up like Wolverine can, so getting in isn't necessarily the end.

MODOK and Wright can both cause trouble because of their shields. Firebrand doesn't have an easy way to side swap and get behind them. Generally I play it slow and wait for careless play. Against Wright I bring in Dormammu, though.

Haggar can Double Lariat Bon Voyage. You have to play it super slow against him and bait things out or go for lots of lows once you get in.

Dante and Vergil can both sometimes anti-air Firebrand just by mashing random sword normals. Annoying.

These are the only characters that cause any hesitation for me when I play. Of these, I would say the following are truly troublesome:
Magneto
Haggar
Wolverine
Hawkeye
Morrigan

Everything else loses to Firebrand at the start of the round gamble, which helps a lot with the matchup problems.

As far as my mains go, I would argue Strider wins between the two, though it's not by a huge margin. Between his normals, Formation B safety and pressure, teleports, fast ground movement, and Formation C being in the prime spot for all of Firebrand's approaches makes it difficult for him to deal with Strider - be it on defense or offense. Admittedly, I'm thinking with him on point, and with a team like mine (Strider/Strange/Dante),so depending on the assists it might go more in Firebrand's favor. I don't really have a whole lot of good Firebrand experience with Strider on point, but I've played a few with him on point, and it feels in his favor.

Dante has all the tools necessary to fight Firebrand even solo, but he has to be extremely careful since everything is slow to startup. If you mistime something with Dante, you're probably going to eat a Bon Voyage. Dante/Vajra is extremely efficient against Firebrand, though.

Trish is more or less even against him, imo. Neither one has a clear edge, but I would say that Trish has an easier time as she can make it harder for Firebrand to come to her than vice-versa.

As far as "solo mixups" go, Strider sorta has solo mixups. Dash in low or dash in double-jump instant overhead j.H(that can crossup) and is an OS airthrow. You can upback it, sure, but he can do it when you wouldn't expect. Been practicing so I can do it consistently. Other than that, I can't think of any "solo mixups" that don't require something else to get the benefit.

I don't feel compelled to go after Trish. Firebrand has a superior ranged game since he can shoot aerial horizontal fireballs and she just has crappy Sparda.

Strider has the better neutral, but he has to hit me several times to kill Firebrand, while I only have to hit him once to kill the whole team. So he doesn't really bother me too much. Mucho respect for anyone who brings Strider out on point in this game.

Dante is pretty even, but Dante/Strider is a pain.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Haha, what? Any time I see Firebrand on a team I rejoice. The character is totally free in so many matchups if you know how to handle him. He doesn't even have solo mix-ups without spending meter. No high/low game, no left/right game, and no command grabs. He just has good pressure and priority. He eats through people who have no patience.

You play Firebrand, I don't. I've only dabbled in him. Maybe 300 or so matches. So I can play him if need be. But I have almost no experience against him. There aren't a lot of Firebrand players out there. Zero on the other hand, I've seen plenty of, so I'm much more comfortable fighting against him.

Or Magneto for example... I've played as him so much and played against him so many times I barely fear him.

Point Haggar is still the character that makes me sweat the most though.

Strider has the better neutral, but he has to hit me several times to kill Firebrand, while I only have to hit him once to kill the whole team. So he doesn't really bother me too much. Mucho respect for anyone who brings Strider out on point in this game.

Dante is pretty even, but Dante/Strider is a pain.

Point Strider is some ridiculous fun. I always recommend people at least try him on point.

Well it's fun unless you get hit first.

 

[Dahbomb]

I don't get it... why can't Firebrand just zone out Haggar with Fireballs? I also remember both Apologyman and FChamp saying that Firebrand beats Haggar pretty easily (faster back ground dash means Haggar has trouble catching up to him).

Freakin' Tron can zone out Haggar....

Of these, I would say the following are truly troublesome:
Magneto
Haggar
Wolverine
Hawkeye
Morrigan

Honestly aside from Morrigan none of these match ups are truly that bad. Like against Hawkeye I would imagine once Firebrand is in with an assist against Hawkeye has huge problems. This isn't a Doom vs Hawkeye type bad match up here.

It's not that easy for Wolverine to camp behind Plasma Beam because Firebrand can duck it and when he's not ducking it he is just staying above it. I do agree that Wolverine has advantage over Firebrand particularly in close to mid range but it's not worse than a 6-4. Hell I would say of those 5 listed aside from Morrigan nothing is worse than a 6-4 for Firebrand.


If this was SF4 Firebrand would be considered an A/High tier character based on match up chart alone. But this isn't SF4 of course and match ups don't matter as much here. Still it's good to see that Firebrand does relatively well against a majority of the cast as far as neutral game goes.


What about Viewtiful Joe? I would imagine that being a frustrating match up for FB even if it's evenish for both.

 

[Karsticles]

You play Firebrand, I don't. I've only dabbled in him. Maybe 300 or so matches. So I can play him if need be. But I have almost no experience against him. There aren't a lot of Firebrand players out there. Zero on the other hand, I've seen plenty of, so I'm much more comfortable fighting against him.

Or Magneto for example... I've played as him so much and played against him so many times I barely fear him.

Point Haggar is still the character that makes me sweat the most though.

Point Strider is some ridiculous fun. I always recommend people at least try him on point.

Well it's fun unless you get hit first.

Point Haggar scares me the most when I'm coming in. Stupid ass Violent Axe crossups...

I don't get it... why can't Firebrand just zone out Haggar with Fireballs? I also remember both Apologyman and FChamp saying that Firebrand beats Haggar pretty easily (faster back ground dash means Haggar has trouble catching up to him).

Freakin' Tron can zone out Haggar....

It's a team game, you know. I'm thinking about team play here, and Plasma Beam + Haggar is tough for Firebrand since it blows through his fireballs and Firebrand can't approach well from above.

Honestly aside from Morrigan none of these match ups are truly that bad. Like against Hawkeye I would imagine once Firebrand is in with an assist against Hawkeye has huge problems. This isn't a Doom vs Hawkeye type bad match up here.

It's not that easy for Wolverine to camp behind Plasma Beam because Firebrand can duck it and when he's not ducking it he is just staying above it. I do agree that Wolverine has advantage over Firebrand particularly in close to mid range but it's not worse than a 6-4. Hell I would say of those 5 listed aside from Morrigan nothing is worse than a 6-4 for Firebrand.

Morrigan is definitely in a tier of her own of bad matchups against Firebrand. Though my team handles her better than ApologyMan's, since I have the Dormammu DHC for punishes, and Dormammu does pretty well against her. Mystic Ray can make things messy for her as well. It's still my hardest matchup, though.

Agreed on the matchup listings. Wolverine players will turtle and wait for a dive from Firebrand before calling Doom, though. I'd call it 5.5-4.5 against Firebrand, because Wolverine's dive kick beats all of Firebrand's options outside of fireballs.

Viewtiful Joe is even. Voomerangs don't really hit in Firebrand's space, and Firebrand can keep up with them with his own fireballs as well. Bon Voyage is hard to hit against a target as mobile as Joe, plus the triple jumps + assist calls mean he isn't easy to get in on and open up. The match is a lot like Spider-man. Annoying as hell, but not really against Firebrand's favor.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I don't get it... why can't Firebrand just zone out Haggar with Fireballs? I also remember both Apologyman and FChamp saying that Firebrand beats Haggar pretty easily (faster back ground dash means Haggar has trouble catching up to him).

Freakin' Tron can zone out Haggar....


Honestly aside from Morrigan none of these match ups are truly that bad. Like against Hawkeye I would imagine once Firebrand is in with an assist against Hawkeye has huge problems. This isn't a Doom vs Hawkeye type bad match up here.

I play Chris and I can't zone Haggar

It's truly depressing. That's on point though. If he's coming in second then he's done.

You know what's an even more awful matchup than Doom vs Hawkeye? Chris vs Doom. Chris vs Trish sucks ass too.

 

[Frantic]

I don't feel compelled to go after Trish. Firebrand has a superior ranged game since he can shoot aerial horizontal fireballs and she just has crappy Sparda.

I tend to view it from the perspective of my team and the way I play - aka, Trish backed by Jam Session (or Weasel Shot, as is more often the case) and Vajra while playing extremely lame while pushing forward a little bit at a time. Firebrand definitely has the better ranged game, but with those assists he can't really take to the air safely, meaning he has to stick around the ground where she can "defensively" work her way in on him(thanks to the two assists, her traps, and her dash + airdashes) to the point where he can be put in bad spots easier than Firebrand can put Trish into bad spots when he tries to work his way in. It's not easy by any means, but the fact she can limit his mobility(and offense) with her traps while still pushing forward makes it "even" imo.

Admittedly, I've never played a Firebrand that can do wall cling fireballs consistently, so that would probably make things more difficult for her, but Vajra is still there to be a pain in his ass.

Strider has the better neutral, but he has to hit me several times to kill Firebrand, while I only have to hit him once to kill the whole team. So he doesn't really bother me too much. Mucho respect for anyone who brings Strider out on point in this game.

Eh, I tend to think "if I get a hit with Strider, I've won", simply because when he's backed by proper assists, he can pressure you so much, and put you into so many resets/mixups so fast during that pressure that you can't realistically block them all. Plus, if I run my main team with Strider on point, I've got stuff like this to kill characters.

And I still say Strider is the best start of the round character in the game, even though I know pretty much everyone would disagree with me. I've never felt threatened at the start of the round with him...

Spoiler

then again, I walk forward against Wolverine with Dante on point, so maybe I'm just fearless.

What about Viewtiful Joe? I would imagine that being a frustrating match up for FB even if it's evenish for both.

Viewtiful Joe is the most annoying and frustrating character to fight against in this game for everyone(probably). Even when I win against him, I don't feel that great, because it was annoying to do.

 

[Karsticles]

I tend to view it from the perspective of my team and the way I play - aka, Trish backed by Jam Session (or Weasel Shot, as is more often the case) and Vajra while playing extremely lame while pushing forward a little bit at a time. Firebrand definitely has the better ranged game, but with those assists he can't really take to the air safely, meaning he has to stick around the ground where she can "defensively" work her way in on him(thanks to the two assists, her traps, and her dash + airdashes) to the point where he can be put in bad spots easier than Firebrand can put Trish into bad spots when he tries to work his way in. It's not easy by any means, but the fact she can limit his mobility(and offense) with her traps while still pushing forward makes it "even" imo.

Admittedly, I've never played a Firebrand that can do wall cling fireballs consistently, so that would probably make things more difficult for her, but Vajra is still there to be a pain in his ass.

I can do wall cling fireballs consistently...on the left side. -_- It's basically the same input as an IAD in anime fighters.

Moving the stick toward me is so much harder than moving it away.

If we're talking full teams, I still don't feel threatened by the range game. Mystic Ray sweeps up Trish, Jam Session, and Vajra all at once. Usually I will just ground Bon Voyage under Trish while calling Mystic Ray; safe and effective. I think my perspective on the Firebrand matchup is different from most folks since no one plays my team. Though I did find some Firebrand/Dormammu/Shuma-Gorath matches on Youtube.

Eh, I tend to think "if I get a hit with Strider, I've won", simply because when he's backed by proper assists, he can pressure you so much, and put you into so many resets/mixups so fast during that pressure that you can't realistically block them all. Plus, if I run my main team with Strider on point, I've got stuff like this to kill characters.

Eh, that was 3 bars of meter. I've never played a good Strider before, though. Just scrubby XF3 Ouroboros crap.

And I still say Strider is the best start of the round character in the game, even though I know pretty much everyone would disagree with me. I've never felt threatened at the start of the round with him...

Spoiler

then again, I walk forward against Wolverine with Dante on point, so maybe I'm just fearless.

I don't disagree with you, but I don't know anything about that either.

 

[Frantic]

If we're talking full teams, I still don't feel threatened by the range game. Mystic Ray sweeps up Trish, Jam Session, and Vajra all at once. Usually I will just ground Bon Voyage under Trish while calling Mystic Ray; safe and effective. I think my perspective on the Firebrand matchup is different from most folks since no one plays my team. Though I did find some Firebrand/Dormammu/Shuma-Gorath matches on Youtube.

The way I'm talking about the matchup is a forward moving turtle on the ground. I don't really take to the skies with Trish offensively, so Firebrand won't really be able to ground Bon Voyage away - I play her very ground based(because I love cr.M and s.H too much). If she's on the ground with a Hopscotch at her feet, Firebrand would have issues getting away, because he can't easily escape that sort of scenario like, say, Magneto can. Mystic Ray will work against the assists, but Trish herself can just chicken block it, and it won't do anything to Hopscotch(and I love me some Hopscotch).

Of course, this is only based on what I've played of the matchup. I've never had a Firebrand effectively run away from my Trish(and they try to, since the real Trish lame play gets blown up by his ranged game), not unless she was assist-less, but the really good ones I've played usually never really let Trish actually play. It was either Dante killing Firebrand, or Firebrand killing my team.

Eh, that was 3 bars of meter. I've never played a good Strider before, though. Just scrubby XF3 Ouroboros crap.

Good Striders are hard to come by, honestly. Played a few that were good, but they never felt scary or left me feeling helpless like he can make you feel at times(they were too passive, and would back off. With the right assists and strings, Strider should never have to back off). I'm pretty good with the ninja, but no where near his potential scariness. Need to master his instant overheads, and then I'll be closer.

I don't disagree with you, but I don't know anything about that either.

His options pretty much blow up everyone's options, without having to choose too many of them. You can get by with three-four starters(f.H throw OS into cr.L, slightly delayed j.H into Excalibur L, forward dash OS > cr.L > s.H, and just raw four frame s.L at the right distance) and beat pretty much every opening gambit from any character. This is in contrast to a character like Dante, where you have to come up with twenty different opening gambits to deal with one matchup. I could go deep into the rabbit-hole of the rock-paper-scissors opening between him and Magneto, but I won't. Just know that for every option Magneto has, Dante has a counter, and for every counter, Magneto has a counter, and for every counter-counter, Dante has a counter, etc, etc. When I play Strider on point, it's like "man, I don't have to think about which option I'm gonna take! This is great!"

It's probably how Wolverine players feel, really. That is, until I beat their opening gambit with Strider.

 

[biosnake20]

Dante/Dante/Dante combo video with 2 Dante's at the same time

 

[JeTmAn81]

I have a hard time zoning a good Haggar with Magneto/Missiles :/. It also makes me want to rage when even characters with airdashes/flight can't really escape Haggar on incoming (dash away, get piped, block him and get crossed up underneath).

 

[Dahbomb]

Dante/Dante/Dante combo video with 2 Dante's at the same time

There aren't enough SSSs in the world to describe this.

 

[commanderpepper]

I'm thinking about Morrigan/Doom/Dante team and the possibilities of Shadow Blade super into Devil Trigger. I think that it can lead into the Morrigan soul drain TAC infinite. I'd like to see the soul drain TAC infinite get more exposure in 2015.

 

[Azoth]

What are the specifics on the soul drain infinite, anyway? How does it function, is it because one of her air normals has landing frames, or because it's done on the first frame she lands? How executionally intensive is it, compared to her normal TAC infinite?

 

[commanderpepper]

Here's the video of the Soul Drain infinite.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfY...eature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_1370584815

I don't do Morrigan TAC infinites so I can't comment on the execution of the infinite.

 

[Azoth]

Ah, the video says shell kick has landing frames, so that's it.

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

I think counter picking is fine. A good player should be ready for anything. Also the person doing the counter pick most times makes them look weak.

 

[Seyavesh]

one of my training partners (busby) says the morrigan soul drain inf is impractical and he's got some of the best execution i've seen and hits a whole bunch of crazy shit with viper and hits the other morrigan inf literally 100% of the time

so it's probably impractical for tourney play

also yeah it works by canceling the landing frames of the normal, which is a major reason why it's so tight apparently bc it's like a 3f window or something really stupid

 

[Dahbomb]

ChrisG also said it was impractical and he has excellent execution.

 

[commanderpepper]

I think some crazy execution monster can pull it off eventually.

 

[Azoth]

Crazy execution monsters can't even pull off Hadoukens 100% of the time; 99.9%, maybe, but human error is unavoidable, and it's always a question of risk vs reward, not a matter of black and white.

Which is why Viper and Point Strider will never be SSS tier, like MvC2 Dhalsim wasn't, etc etc. IMO, anyway.

 

[Dahbomb]

I don't think Dhalsim was ever as good as Viper relatively speaking to their games. Viper has actually done some work at tournaments. Even so Viper at her theoretical maximum is still not SSS tier. Like I would not put her above Zero, Magneto or Morrigan in terms of best teams. At her best she is around Wolverine tier and then you have to realize how much easier it is to play Wolverine as his theoretical max.

Point Strider will never be a thing because Anchor Strider is just way way better.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I don't think Dhalsim was ever as good as Viper relatively speaking to their games. Viper has actually done some work at tournaments. Even so Viper at her theoretical maximum is still not SSS tier. Like I would not put her above Zero, Magneto or Morrigan in terms of best teams. At her best she is around Wolverine tier and then you have to realize how much easier it is to play Wolverine as his theoretical max.

Point Strider will never be a thing because Anchor Strider is just way way better.

Yeah until you run out of xf. Strider with assists is too dope though.

 

[Azoth]

I don't think Dhalsim was ever as good as Viper relatively speaking to their games. Viper has actually done some work at tournaments. Even so Viper at her theoretical maximum is still not SSS tier. Like I would not put her above Zero, Magneto or Morrigan in terms of best teams. At her best she is around Wolverine tier and then you have to realize how much easier it is to play Wolverine as his theoretical max.

Point Strider will never be a thing because Anchor Strider is just way way better.

I didn't say MvC2 Dhalsim was as good as MvC3 Viper in tournament play. I said both of them were SSS Tier in theory and not anywhere close to that in actuality.

Viper at her theoretical maximum has fullscreen projectiles with less requirement frames than soul fist, halfscreen+ overheads into full combos, the best reversal in the game, ToD damage, etc.

Execution is the only thing stopping Viper from running over everyone with Rapid FADC Seismos and viperball pressure. You just haven't SEEN "maximum viper", because it's not feasible to use "Hold L -> 623 -> M -> 9 -> H+S -> Hold H -> Let go of L -> L+M + Assist -> 2149Atk~S" during a match, to do Seismo into FADC into Viperball while charging a laser.

The end result is as if Zero could cancel his L1-3 buster into a DT Vergil airdash, while calling an assist.

Nevermind doing it over and over again, which her neutral would allow, and which would be overpowering, resulting in large projectile hitboxes into free hi/low mixups from halfscreen+.

At "theoretical maximum", she craps all over everyone. The point is, theoretical maximums based on the flawed logic that humans will attain executional perfection are pointless. Humans won't. Humans can't even react to something they see faster than ~6-7 frames, and marvel won't even process the button you push for ~5 frames, so even a theoretical human maximum would have to account for 11 frames of delay between every single reactionary decision you make and it manifesting into input. That's without even accounting for human error.

Concert pianists miss the occasional note timing. Professional baseball players make errors. People with a lot more experience and crowd-sourced talent, who have a LOT more riding on their success than marvel tournament players, mess up, and so do Marvel players. Even the best ones, even at the top of their game.

The fact of the matter is, some things will ALWAYS be "too executionally demanding to be to good", even when the players and game evolve, and a lot of people have this idea that anything we find tricky now, after three years of playing the game, will be ez pz in a couple years. That's not really the case.

If that guy's friend and Chris G both say the Soul Drain infinite isn't practical, I'd say they're probably right, and it'll probably never see any kind of consistent competitive daylight.

 

[Dahbomb]

The thing is that what you said about Viper doesn't actually deal with her problem which is her match ups against Morrigan, Zero and Magneto. She has trouble dealing with those characters because she has limited capability at the SJ height even at her theoretical level. She will always have trouble with Soul Fist spam.

Viper is SSS tier on the ground (or near the ground) and she should never technically lose to rushdown/grappler only characters. That is to say on paper she should never lose to Wolverine but she does because of human error.

 

[Azoth]

wat?

1.) Viper can Seismo faster than Morrigan can Soul Fist. Seismo neutralizes soul fist. Seismo has enough vertical range to also neutralize standard Flight Height Air H fists.

2.) Eyebeam straight out beats soul fist, penetrates to hit assists, and does 90k damage in the process.

3.) Viper can dash between seismos, forward or back, as much as she wants.

4.) Viper can float for days with an airdash and burnkick feints, to just avoid AV if she wants. Both of these(airdash and all air feints) are refreshed if she gets hit, by something like missiles.

"Theory viper" has 0 problem with soul fist spam, and can bully morrigan to pieces any time she tries it.

As far as the Ground vs Air game goes, Wolverine and Vergil both have terrible air control, and are both top tier. This game isn't about air control. If you have good ground movement and unbeatable ground pressure, it doesn't matter how good the opponent's air movement and control is, they have to play your game eventually.

Viper has ALL these tools, to be undeniably soft-ban-levels of broken, but it's irrelevant, because they're too executionally demanding. The room for error required for trying to play her that way, as a human, means the risk/reward will never pay off.

That's why "theory tiers" are irrelevant, and why people need to incorporate execution into how good they think a character is. Unless you're talking about making algorithms to have the computer play itself with said characters, you're always going to have to deal with the fact that some things are more trouble than they're worth, in human hands.

 

[Martal]

So I just got Marvel. Any scrubs on 360 who want their confidence boosted?

 

[Dahbomb]

You still didn't state anything in that post that allows Viper to deal with Morrigan where it matters. Stalling with Viper against AV just means you get hit by Missiles or locked down into more fireball chip. If she jumps then she will eat chip. Staying on the ground to spam Seismos and beam means Morrigan is free to stay at SJ height and throw fireballs all day long uncontested. Seismos aren't going to help you here. Eye beam does not deal with Fireballs coming out behind her from AV.

Vergil has Helm Breaker and a tracking teleport to deal with super jumpers.... Viper does not have those. Vergil also has Spiral Swords and fireball negating normals to break through tough zoning. Also Vergil has faster movement on the ground,a teleport and longer normals which means whenever someone is about to land Vergil will be there to mix them up from underneath.

I do agree that execution does matter in rating characters as tiers are rating of character strengths based on peak human level. Viper's stuff generally surpasses human limitation (unless we are proven wrong and someone starts doing her shit) and thus only the practical stuff is taken into the equation.


Hsien Ko has a 1 frame link infinite loop that is completely disregarded in her ranking as a character for example.

 

[Karsticles]

Part of the reason Hsien-ko is disregarded, though, is that no one can start the infinite of their own volition.

 

[Karsticles]

This new Thor as a woman thing is exactly why we can't have roster predictions right now. Hahaha.

 

[Azoth]

I don't think you're understanding the Morrigan vs Viper matchup very well, dude. Morrigan can only threaten viper with SFs during AV, and even during AV, still trades beamhits with hits from behind. In AV, Viper can avoid her until she isn't in AV, fairly easily.

Anything NOT in AV, loses heavily to seismo and beam. The higher Morrigan tries to do it, such as SJ height, the less SFs she can throw, and the more easily it loses to seismo's jump-height hitbox.

Going over the finer points of exactly how Morrigan gets bodied by 'Theory Viper' could take all day, but that's more of a useless conversation for the SRK Tier List Thread.

The point to be made, was that even though she loses hard to theory viper, it's irrelevant due to the fact that execution is a character flaw, and the higher demand for execution a character or technique has, the more room for human error it invites.There is no perfectly played character, only characters played well in the confines of human capability.

Saying 1-frame infinites don't count is only the start. Even viper has a 1-frame infinite,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjtbgVTQYlI

You have to also incorporate 11-frame reaction times, how badly an error in otherwise standard input will hurt you, etc.

And wait, they made thor-lady comics?

 

[Dahbomb]

New Thor kinda looks like Hawkgirl.

 

[Zissou]

Thor in Earth X (15 years ago!) was a woman and looked cool:

 

[mr. puppy]

Counterpicking Firebrand/ with Vergil/Magneto/Dante would be my answer.

Vergil>Firebrand, and disruptor can screw up Doom calls.

Now here's a question: Does Vergil have so little health that Firebrand->Doom hard tag does not build enough meter to have 2 bars for the guaranteed unblockable? Magneto can escape Firebrand/Tenderizer.

 

[Dahbomb]

Vergil does not counter pick Firebrand as bad as Morrigan counter picks Firebrand.

 

[FSLink]

Yeah I like Morrigan/Magneto/Doom against Firebrand.