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[SolarPowered]

Indeed, you have to look at all the cast changes before judging. A lot of characters are vicious now.

That and you gotta get good at blocking which is why I'm calm. You personally know I got that down lol. Unless we're talking Nemo types of mixups...

 

[Karsticles]

When should system change voting be completed? I generally know how I will vote, but I'd like to know how much time I have to mull things over.

I haven't set a hard limit yet; if you need a day or two to mull it over, go for it. If you want to only vote on a few system changes, that's fine too, since it lets us know what we're squared away on. For example, GB, Dahbomb, and me are all fine with the throw changes. So if you and Frantic can at least say you're fine with those, then we know we have throws 100% cemented and can turn our attention elsewhere.

That and you gotta get good at blocking which is why I'm calm. You personally know I got that down lol. Unless we're talking Nemo types of mixups...

You are definitely one of the best at blocking I've played against.

 

[QisTopTier]

I still think this is good good.

If people are worried about it being too strong his fireball damage can be nerfed I guess, but it's not like he get's double fireballs at anypoint *which I can assume is the main reason behind morrigans nerf*

 

["God's Beard!"]

I'm okay with saying that a move causes knockdown at low HSD even though it doesn't at HSD. There's some logic to that, though there should really be more specialized terms to communicate that. What I'm not okay with is calling moves that cause aerial recovery at 0 HSD "knockdown" moves. Even at 0 HSD, Rocket Punch never knocks an opponent to the floor in Ultimate.

Knockdown just means any move that knocks people off their feet from standing in Marvel. The amount of hitstun changes dramatically from move to move.

Soft Knockdown is the old knockdown term.

All the other distinctions have to do with special states. OTG-capability, falling animation changes, bounces. There's a reason for all of them.

S-canceling the first flight probably won't work because j.S isn't special-cancelable. Thank you for the clarification.

Well, you could x-factor I guess.

 

[Karsticles]

If people are worried about it being too strong his fireball damage can be nerfed I guess, but it's not like he get's double fireballs at anypoint *which I can assume is the main reason behind morrigans nerf*

Morrigan's fireball damage was nerfed to lower her meter gain during Astral Vision and slightly reduce her chip capacity.

And Firebrand could apply way more pressure than Morrigan with this change; example scenario:
1) Double tap to wall cling
2) L input.
3) Follow-up fireball input immediately after cling ends (two fireballs right next to each other now).
4) qcb.L to cancel that fireball.
5) Fireball on the ground.

Now there are 2 fireballs at jump height, and 1 on the ground. Plus he would get his own mini-Fireball wall with this change:

1) qcf.L
2) qcb.L
3) qcf.L
4) qcb.L

 

["God's Beard!"]

As long as Astral Vision puts fireballs behind you that don't go away when the front ones or morrigan are hit, Morrigan is the queen of pressure.

 

[Karsticles]

Sentinel:
+Flight Startup reduced to 8 frames; Flight time increased to 180; Flight movement increased; Sentinel now turns faster when passing by opponents during Flight; Flight now tethered to the number of specials used in the air total (fly and fly-cancel both count as a special input); total Flight time limited to 180 frames before the ground must be touched.
+Health increased to 1,100,000.
+j.M, c.M, s.S, j.S, and j.H now deal 15% chip damage.
+s.S returned to Vanilla hyper armor status.
+Rocket Punch (all versions) recovery improved by 10 frames; hitstun increased by 5 frames on the ground version; now -10 on block for the ground version and -4 for the aerial version; ground version +5 on hit, aerial version now +6 on hit.
+Hard Drive given a small vacuum effect on characters it hits; characters no longer drop out.
+Sentinel Force H startup reduced to 30 frames; drones arrive if Sentinel is hit on frame 1; bombs are dropped from a slightly greater height; area of effect slightly increased.
+j.H reduced to 14 frame startup.
-Damage on Plasma Storm and all non-beam normals reduced by 10%.

Assists: Sentinel Force L, Sentinel Force H, c.H

 

[QisTopTier]

Morrigan's fireball damage was nerfed to lower her meter gain during Astral Vision and slightly reduce her chip capacity.

And Firebrand could apply way more pressure than Morrigan with this change; example scenario:
1) Double tap to wall cling
2) L input.
3) Follow-up fireball input immediately after cling ends (two fireballs right next to each other now).
4) qcb.L to cancel that fireball.
5) Fireball on the ground.

Now there are 2 fireballs at jump height, and 1 on the ground. Plus he would get his own mini-Fireball wall with this change:

1) qcf.L
2) qcb.L
3) qcf.L
4) qcb.L

I don't really see the problem with something like this in mvc3 let alone this version of the game.

 

[Zissou]

I thought moves that caused a soft knockdown kept the opponent in hitstun until they touched the ground regardless of HSD, while other moves may cause a knockdown, but since it's not a soft knockdown, whether or not the opponent recovers before they hit the floor is contingent upon HSD.

 

[Karsticles]

But should neutral Firebrand really be able to go toe-to-toe with neutral Morrigan? No Luminous Body, no AV. That's what I'm concerned about. I get that Morrigan wins in AV, but Morrigan doesn't always get to have AV up.

I don't really see the problem with something like this in mvc3 let alone this version of the game.

Spoiler

Neither do I, but if I accept it everyone will just say it's because I play Firebrand, so I am going to reject it unless other committee members support it.

Plus, there are issues with Firebrand's intended design. Thus far, I think we have done a good job of giving characters buffs that make sense for the archetype Capcom designed them for. This is a pretty big archetype change.

 

[Dahbomb]

Then why not just link it to total flight frames instead of tethering it to special limitations? This will be awfully complicated if flight is chained to two mechanisms.

No one is really going to be using Rocket Punches in the air that much when limbs chip now (except for confirming a long distance j.H). I am with God's beard though that special limit should apply for flight cancel, makes it more interesting that way.

And while I think Sentinel is top 10 now, he would still have bad match ups. On the ground he is still instant over head city, in the air he is still a big target that is susceptible to zoning like Dorm, Morrigan, Hawkeye, Strange etc. He definitely needs the health no doubt about it. But I think the combination of higher health and superior tool plus great support value puts him in the top 10 bracket of this game. It just makes him a fair top 10 character due to everyone being able to fight him.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Does flight have pre-jump frames?

I thought moves that caused a soft knockdown kept the opponent in hitstun until they touched the ground regardless of HSD, while other moves may cause a knockdown, but since it's not a soft knockdown, whether or not the opponent recovers before they hit the floor is contingent upon HSD.

Yes, the only difference is that some moves knock people down and they never go all the way to the floor. They're just swept.

 

[QisTopTier]

But should neutral Firebrand really be able to go toe-to-toe with neutral Morrigan? No Luminous Body, no AV. That's what I'm concerned about. I get that Morrigan wins in AV, but Morrigan doesn't always get to have AV up.

Spoiler

Neither do I, but if I accept it everyone will just say it's because I play Firebrand, so I am going to reject it unless other committee members support it.

Plus, there are issues with Firebrand's intended design. Thus far, I think we have done a good job of giving characters buffs that make sense for the archetype Capcom designed them for. This is a pretty big archetype change.

I dont see why Morrigan having someone on par with her is a bad thing, and once they transform they both upgrade in different ways. Firebrand would most likely revert to his melee game at that point where morrigan would stick with her buffed up range game.

It's a big change, but I feel that's what would be needed if he lost the unblockable, and let's be honest that's a shit thing to focus a character around. They gave him a bunch of different fireballs, the wall cling and all his other tools but the whole fact he is limited by the sole fact he has an unblockable move is ass.

 

[Dahbomb]

Because Morrigan does not have an unblockable or horizontal/vertical dive kicks she can confirm off of.

No to this command dash cancelable fireball non sense. The character is already pretty good, we made him better.

Edit: Oh nevermind this is INSTEAD of an unblockable. I am now a bit more curious about this.

 

[DR2K]

And yet he's still worse than his MvC2 incarnation.

I wonder if logic like this was applied they they were balancing Virgil? MVC2 is a disaster in terms of balance and broken characters, this game should never be brought up when balance talk comes in.

 

[SolarPowered]

You are definitely one of the best at blocking I've played against.

Thanks

I really think you'll love Squigly. She can open up my defenses quite a bit. Probably a much better fit for you than Parasoul.

No to this command dash cancelable fireball non sense. The character is already pretty good, we made him better.

I really want to play the game you guys are putting together. I'd pay a full $60 if I could get my hands on it right now. It sucks that the odds of this patch happening are super low.

 

[Karsticles]

I wonder if logic like this was applied they they were balancing Virgil? MVC2 is a disaster in terms of balance and broken characters, this game should never be brought up when balance talk comes in.

I think you misread the intention of my statement; there's no intention at justification there.

Thanks

I really think you'll love Squigly. She can open up my defenses quite a bit. Probably a much better fit for you than Parasoul.

I just can't handle Parasoul's Street Fighter-esque dash. I really love Painwheel and Peacock, though.

I really don't care about getting past people's defenses. I just want to lock them down.

 

[Frantic]

We're just doing the system changes atm, right? I'll work on characters a little bit at a time.

Features - Y
TACs - Y
Throws – Y
X-Factor – Y: BTW, the original values are 40/70/100, not 45/75/100 as listed. Also, are we doing anything about Dark Phoenix's values? Currently, Dark Phoenix has values of 50/100/145. Are we reducing that any, or leaving as is?
Damage - Y
Combos - Y
Assists – Y: Although I'm most okay with everything, I'm somewhat unsure of the 'unable to call assists during recovery or rolls' bit. How long into recovery, will there be any 'lag' after recovery/rolling is finished? I think it needs a little more details, just for clarification. Also, was assists being affected by HSD ever brought up?
Other - Y

The characters will be harder for me to decide on, so it'll probably be a couple days before I post them(plus I'll be a bit busy over the next few days).

 

[Dahbomb]

'unable to call assists during recovery or rolls' bit. How long into recovery, will there be any 'lag' after recovery/rolling is finished? I think it needs a little more details, just for clarification. Also, was assists being affected by HSD ever brought up?

Basically as soon as you are able to do any move, you can call an assist. What this is removing is call an assist WHILE rolling like Lariat and escape all types of reset attempts after knockdowns.

BTW, the original values are 40/70/100, not 45/75/100 as listed

Yeah I told him that, he was supposed to have fixed this already.

I really want to play the game you guys are putting together. I'd pay a full $60 if I could get my hands on it right now. It sucks that the odds of this patch happening are super low.

I would pay $1000 for the best game ever made.

Actually second best, best game is DMC5 as suggested by myself.

 

[Karsticles]

We're just doing the system changes atm, right? I'll work on characters a little bit at a time.

Features - Y
TACs - Y
Throws – Y
X-Factor – Y: BTW, the original values are 40/70/100, not 45/75/100 as listed. Also, are we doing anything about Dark Phoenix's values? Currently, Dark Phoenix has values of 50/100/145. Are we reducing that any, or leaving as is?
Damage - Y
Combos - Y
Assists – Y: Although I'm most okay with everything, I'm somewhat unsure of the 'unable to call assists during recovery or rolls' bit. How long into recovery, will there be any 'lag' after recovery/rolling is finished? I think it needs a little more details, just for clarification. Also, was assists being affected by HSD ever brought up?
Other - Y

The characters will be harder for me to decide on, so it'll probably be a couple days before I post them(plus I'll be a bit busy over the next few days).

I fixed the X-Factor values.

You can call an assist the moment you recover from the roll. Basically, just no BS where you roll under someone during recover and call Cold Star or something on top of them. I do this all the time with Mystic Ray; it basically means that putting me into a reset situation benefits me more than it benefits you for a lot of teams.

Assists being affected by HSD was never brought up, and it's a good thing to bring up. I'd like to change it back to Vanilla status, personally. Assists being affected by HSD selectively benefits some characters more than others.

And a good point on Dark Phoenix values. I'm curious what others think.

Yeah I told him that, he was supposed to have fixed this already.

No, you told me I had one of the new values wrong. I just copy/paste the stuff you guys type for this, so...

 

["God's Beard!"]

I would pay $1000 for the best game ever made.

Jojo's is already available on XBL and PSN.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";74038288]Jojo's is already available on XBL and PSN.[/QUOTE]
You didn't even buy it.

So let's discuss these two points:
1) Should Dark Phoenix X-Factor values change?
2) Should assists be affected by HSD?

 

[GuardianE]

I really don't care about getting past people's defenses. I just want to lock them down.

I said this in the Skullgirls' thread, but I'll say it again here.

Squigly's Drag'N Bite assist feels like a tracking, autocorrecting, higher priority Shopping Cart assist.

 

[Dahbomb]

If you guys want to change Phoenix that's fine by me I don't really care. Make it like XF (50/85/120).

2) Should assists be affected by HSD?

Then Disruptor beams becomes a godly assist because you can then use it for combo extensions late into a combo. I feel that having properties like what Doom and Iron Man have on their beam are there for a reason. This just inflates damage in the game and we want to avoid that as much as possible.

No, you told me I had one of the new values wrong. I just copy/paste the stuff you guys type for this, so...

New values are correct. Old values should be 40/70/100.

This was my post where I brought it up, I don't know what you copied/pasted:

Also I noticed that the XF2 new value is wrong. It should be 60%. Each incremental XF is 20% up (40/60/80). Otherwise XF2 becomes the most bang for your buck. And old X factor values used to be 40/70/100 which was 30% increase per XF value.

 

[Karsticles]

I said this in the Skullgirls' thread, but I'll say it again here.

Squigly's Drag'N Bite assist feels like a tracking, autocorrecting, higher priority Shopping Cart assist.

Which move is that?

If you guys want to change Phoenix that's fine by me I don't really care. Make it like XF (50/85/120).

I feel like, with the health buffs, we might need to keep Dark Phoenix's values as they are. I'm curious what others think, though. I'm not opposed to a small reduction.

 

[SolarPowered]

I just can't handle Parasoul's Street Fighter-esque dash. I really love Painwheel and Peacock, though.

I really don't care about getting past people's defenses. I just want to lock them down.

August is gonna be a good month when Tim Burton edition arrives on consoles.

I would pay $1000 for the best game ever made.

Chill

I bought a special and standard edition of Vanilla. Then I bought both versions of ultimate full price. I'm all Marvel'd out.

 

[GuardianE]

Which move is that?

I think it's QCF.HP.

I use Parasoul. You can cancel her dash at any time, so I'm not sure why you're saying her movement is SF-esque? Her walk is unusual, though.

Chill

I bought a special and standard edition of Vanilla. Then I bought both versions of ultimate full price. I'm all Marvel'd out.

Like DahBomb, I'd pay an exorbitant amount of money for an update to this game. Second probably only to DMC5.

 

[FlyFaster]

Sentinel:
+Flight Startup reduced to 8 frames; Flight time increased to 180; Flight movement increased; Sentinel now turns faster when passing by opponents during Flight; Flight now limited by the number of specials used in the air total (3 per jump max).
+Health increased to 1,100,000.
+j.M, c.M, s.S, j.S, and j.H now deal 15% chip damage.
+s.S returned to Vanilla hyper armor status.
+Rocket Punch (all versions) recovery improved by 10 frames; hitstun increased by 5 frames; now -10 on block for the ground version and -4 for the aerial version; ground version +5 on hit, aerial version now +6 on hit.
+Hard Drive given a small vacuum effect on characters it hits; characters no longer drop out.
+Sentinel Force H startup reduced to 30 frames; drones arrive if Sentinel is hit on frame 1; bombs are dropped from a slightly greater height; area of effect slightly increased.
+j.H reduced to 14 frame startup.
-Damage on Plasma Storm and all non-beam normals reduced by 10%.

Assists: Sentinel Force L, Sentinel Force H, c.H

Wow, if only you guys had a boner like this for Iron Man, maybe his change list would make him look fun to play. smh

 

[Dahbomb]

Like DahBomb, I'd pay an exorbitant amount of money for an update to this game. Second probably only to DMC5.

Nah son DMC5 is #1 priority always.

Wow, if only you guys had a boner like this for Iron Man, maybe his change list would make him look fun to play. smh

He IS fun to play. We gave him all the buffs he needs.

And I don't care for Phoenix aside from making her new hyper ground only.

 

[GuardianE]

Nah son DMC5 is #1 priority always.

I said this update was second to DMC5. C'mon, man.

 

[Karsticles]

Here are my votes:

Features Y
TACs Y
Throws Y
X-Factor Y
Damage Y
Combos Y
Assists N - I want a discussion about HSD and assists.
Other N - I have become more uneasy about this change over time: *Ground neutral tech recovery is now slightly slower and more deliberately visualized; why? Initially I was indifferent, but this could take a lot of work to be implemented (more animation frames?), and is it really a problem that needs fixing? Shouldn't players be rewarded for using another recovery option to mess with their opponent's setups?

I don't get this.

I think it's QCF.HP.

I mean what does it look like - I haven't touched Squigly yet.

Wow, if only you guys had a boner like this for Iron Man, maybe his change list would make him look fun to play. smh

Dahbomb is an Iron Man main. Your suggestions were generally moronic and completely ignored all of the rules we set forth. If you had ever said a single intelligent thing, we would have conversed with you: I promise.

 

[Dahbomb]

*Ground neutral tech recovery is now slightly slower and more deliberately visualized; why? Initially I was indifferent, but this could take a lot of work to be implemented (more animation frames?), and is it really a problem that needs fixing? Shouldn't players be rewarded for using another recovery option to mess with their opponent's setups?

I am still indifferent about this. The argument provided was valid... they get up too fast sometimes and it's hard to tell what is happening but that's the game we play. Everything is too fast and hard to tell as it is. I can go either way on this.

Unless you clarify it most people are just going to have a fit over it and think it's something that it's now. Better to remove it if you feel uncomfortable about it.

 

[GuardianE]

I mean what does it look like - I haven't touched Squigly yet.

She moves forward while stabbing Leviathan out in front of her about 5 times or so. Hitbox is huge. Keeps the opponent standing. Ridiculous priority. Lasts a while. And if you cross over, or if the opponent closes in while you retreat? Squigly appears behind them and actually stabs them from behind, autocorrecting.

 

[Karsticles]

I am still indifferent about this. The argument provided was valid... they get up too fast sometimes and it's hard to tell what is happening but that's the game we play. Everything is too fast and hard to tell as it is. I can go either way on this.

Unless you clarify it most people are just going to have a fit over it and think it's something that it's now. Better to remove it if you feel uncomfortable about it.

Well, every other committee member voted "Y" for it except for Zissou, who has not yet voted. I am thus in the minority. If Zissou votes "Y", we'll deliberate on my grievance and see how others feel. If the majority remains a "Y" for the change, then I will be overruled. The list was flexible and I felt it was okay to remove things before because it was all rough-draft-y. But we're cementing things now, and I'm no longer able to change things so whimsically.

She moves forward while stabbing Leviathan out in front of her about 5 times or so. Hitbox is huge. Keeps the opponent standing. Ridiculous priority. Lasts a while. And if you cross over, or if the opponent closes in while you retreat? Squigly appears behind them and actually stabs them from behind, autocorrecting.

Does the move always track? Or does she appear in front of your character? One of those is far more useful to me than the other.

Also, re: Parasoul's ground dash: I just mean that it only goes a limited distance, so I have to mash double taps over and over until I get to where I need to be. Everyone else I've used has a "running" dash that goes forever. She's also the only character I can't reasonably dash with by using a two-button input because Napalm Shot charges so fast. I have to double-tap with her. So I am two-button dashing with my other two characters, but double tapping with Parasoul. Those are the two ways her dashes are "Street Fighter-esque" to me.

 

[Dahbomb]

Well, every other committee member voted "Y" for it except for Zissou, who has not yet voted. I am thus in the minority. If Zissou votes "Y", we'll deliberate on my grievance and see how others feel. If the majority remains a "Y" for the change, then I will be overruled.

I feel the assist HSD change is more controversial than this.

That's a big change as it was from Vanilla and Ultimate. We finally adjusted to the changes (some assists got worse, others got better) but I think don't people should be subjected to reverting back to it. Like for example, I LIKE that some assists are better combo extenders than others.

 

[Frantic]

Other N - I have become more uneasy about this change over time: *Ground neutral tech recovery is now slightly slower and more deliberately visualized; why? Initially I was indifferent, but this could take a lot of work to be implemented (more animation frames?), and is it really a problem that needs fixing? Shouldn't players be rewarded for using another recovery option to mess with their opponent's setups?

I think the important thing is how much slower are we talking? If we're talking like five frames, then it's not a big deal IMO. If we're talking ten or more, that's something else entirely.

I was thinking it'd just be around fiveish frames(since it's 'slightly' slower) so I didn't have a problem with it.

 

[GuardianE]

Does the move always track? Or does she appear in front of your character? One of those is far more useful to me than the other.

She appears like on top of your character, maybe a little in front. It's utility is the same as Shopping Cart, which is why I described it like I did.

I'm not positive if she'll turn around mid-stab, but she'll track in the beginning if your opponent is trying to cross you up.

 

[Dahbomb]

I think the important thing is how much slower are we talking? If we're talking like five frames, then it's not a big deal IMO. If we're talking ten or more, that's something else entirely.

I was thinking it'd just be around fiveish frames(since it's 'slightly' slower) so I didn't have a problem with it.

That's what I was thinking too. We don't want this option to be WORSE we want this option to be better visualized. Making it significantly slower would make it significantly worse.

 

[Karsticles]

Alright, I changed the language to this:
*Ground neutral tech recovery is now 5 frames slower and more deliberately visualized.

And I change my vote to a "Y". As the section was changed, any member is allowed to change his vote to a "N" for that section now.

I feel the assist HSD change is more controversial than this.

That's a big change as it was from Vanilla and Ultimate. We finally adjusted to the changes (some assists got worse, others got better) but I think don't people should be subjected to reverting back to it. Like for example, I LIKE that some assists are better combo extenders than others.

What bothers me is that certain character combinations are less viable. As usual, I'll use a Dormammu example, since I'm most familiar with his synergies:

Vanilla Dormammu/Akuma bnb:
j.S, c.LMS, sj.MMHS, dash forward, df.H + Tatsu call, Dark Hole, Chaotic Flame

Ultimate:
j.S, c.LHS, sj.MMHS, dash forward, df.H + Tatsu call, Dark Hole (whiffs)

The change was supposed to hurt the Wolverine/Akuma combination, but it's alive and well as Evo showed. Instead, it just ended up hurting other character combinations that didn't need the damage.

I think the important thing is how much slower are we talking? If we're talking like five frames, then it's not a big deal IMO. If we're talking ten or more, that's something else entirely.

I was thinking it'd just be around fiveish frames(since it's 'slightly' slower) so I didn't have a problem with it.

I've become less convinced that it needs to be changed at all, though.

She appears like on top of your character, maybe a little in front. It's utility is the same as Shopping Cart, which is why I described it like I did.

I'm not positive if she'll turn around mid-stab, but she'll track in the beginning if your opponent is trying to cross you up.

That's not very helpful for my style of play. I will probably use her DP assist, since it's the only good one for Painwheel AFAIK.

 

[Frantic]

I've become less convinced that it needs to be changed at all, though.

Oh.

Uh, well... I never really had a problem with the way neutral techs worked, personally. I use them a lot, honestly(neutral tech > super jump is the last thing anyone expects!) so I'm not opposed to the change being removed. I can go either way, honestly.

 

[SolarPowered]

I don't get this.

Her ground dash is like the propulsion mechanism for "cars" in The Jetsons. It craps all over Parasoul's ground mobility.

Like DahBomb, I'd pay an exorbitant amount of money for an update to this game. Second probably only to DMC5.

I'd do unspeakable things for a Melee HD with online done by Namco. Nintendo could literally do whatever they want with the series if I had an HD Melee to fall back on.

 

[GuardianE]

That's not very helpful for my style of play. I will probably use her DP assist, since it's the only good one for Painwheel AFAIK.

Figured I'd throw it out there since you were talking about locking down your opponent.

 

[FlyFaster]

@ karst

but I posted a bunch of IM gifs from the movies!


seriously tho, while I admit that some of my suggestions were over the top, I think a few things could help.

Why was the change to unibeam not included in his final changes? You guys had something down about increasing hitstun so he use them in combos ala MvC2.

 

[Dahbomb]

The change was supposed to hurt the Wolverine/Akuma combination, but it's alive and well as Evo showed. Instead, it just ended up hurting other character combinations that didn't need the damage.

First of all, Tatsu was hurt because it was soft knockdown now it isn't. Soft knockdown on Tatsu was way too fucking good.

Secondly, Tatsu is a great assist outside of its combo utility. It has projectile negation, it locks down, it comes out fast and sets up for combo confirms. So it being not being an excellent combo extender on top of this is not a big deal, in fact it is still functional as such for numerous teams (like a Spencer team).

If certain assists have trouble with combo extensions then you need to look at those assists selectively. Improve their minimum hit stun, give them more lock down (like say Unibeam) or give them soft knockdown property. I don't think this is necessary, we have already given many characters better assists including better OTG assists.

 

[Karsticles]

Her ground dash is like the propulsion mechanism for "cars" in The Jetsons'.

Ah, I get it now!

Figured I'd throw it out there since you were talking about locking down your opponent.

I like to lock my opponent down from afar, though. Basically, this is my way of thinking about fighting games:

If I play rushdown, then I am always hoping my opponent has an error in judgment. He didn't tech a throw, he thought I was going low when I was going high, etc. I don't like relying on my opponent to win. I know that's not how most people think of rushdown, but it's how I do. Whenever I hit someone in rushdown I think "Sigh, I am winning because he is not good at blocking".

Instead, I like strategies that guarantee I win so long as I make smart decisions. Where, even with perfect play, my opponent is still dead. That's why I like Dormammu; in theory, so long as I use good judgment with Purification, Dark Spells, etc., I will win. Every time I lose, it's my fault for having poor judgment in the situation and not maximizing my skill usage. This is why I prefer projectile characters in every other game as well; there are no melee characters who play like this (well, except for Ghost Rider). They are always about mix-ups and pressure, which actually demotivate me sometimes.

Unfortunately, Marvel makes me compromise because there are no good zoning characters who are viable on point. That's why I play Firebrand. I would rather play Sentinel, Ghost Rider, or Dormammu on point, since they fit my playstyle more. In Skullgirls, I like Painwheel because she is basically a mini-Sentinel with her playstyle, and has very good space control (especially with her movement). I like Peacock for the same reason. I should like Parasoul, but I just find her movement too uncomfortable to use. Squigly could be good for me, but I won't know until I sit down and test her.

Why was the change to unibeam not included in his final changes? You guys had something down about increasing hitstun so he use them in combos ala MvC2.

I do not recall this change, and I do not think I have eliminated any Iron Man suggestions that were in aside from the minimum air dash height change, which GB and Dahbomb are both opposed to.

First of all, Tatsu was hurt because it was soft knockdown now it isn't. Soft knockdown on Tatsu was way too fucking good.

Secondly, Tatsu is a great assist outside of its combo utility. It has projectile negation, it locks down, it comes out fast and sets up for combo confirms. So it being not being an excellent combo extender on top of this is not a big deal, in fact it is still functional as such for numerous teams (like a Spencer team).

If certain assists have trouble with combo extensions then you need to look at those assists selectively. Improve their minimum hit stun, give them more lock down (like say Unibeam) or give them soft knockdown property. I don't think this is necessary, we have already given many characters better assists including better OTG assists.

I don't think any of this negates the point I made, which is a good one. I don't disagree with anything you said here, though.

 

[Dahbomb]

Why was the change to unibeam not included in his final changes? You guys had something down about increasing hitstun so he use them in combos.

Was that the change about Unibeam being fly cancelable or Unibeam having more hit stun to allow for more combos with it?

We are VERY cautious about adding or subtracting hit stun on moves unless we absolutely need to. Like recently we had this big discussion about the hit stun on Rocket Punch and we only entertained it because he has legitimate issues with linking HSF from it at the start of throws (which shouldn't be a problem but the move is so garbage). So even if you want Unibeam hit stun increased you have to realize it affects more than just combos. Unibeam is also an assist, so now you have buffed the assist and right now in this patch it's already the BEST beam assist in the game. If Unibeam has improved hit stun to the point where Iron Man can get combos off of it that means that I can confirm a combo off of ground or air unibeam. I mean I could do Unibeam L, they would be in hit stun and dash up cancel into cr.M (the real buff we gave Iron Man which is dashes cancelable into normals like a normal character) which would lead into a full combo. Or I am flying in the air, I do Unibeam and then confirm that combo with a tri dash down j.H which has huge hit box. Not to mention that IM already has 20% damage scaling on specials (we actually had to nerf this by the way) so if he was doing Unibeams mid combos that's a damage buff to him.

Would being able to combo with Unibeam be fun? Yes it would be. Would it be balanced? We are not sure and arguments can be made either way.

I don't think any of this negates the point I made, which is a good one. I don't disagree with anything you said here, though.

I don't deny your point, yes quite a few teams were affected by this change (mainly MarlinPie's team which is what prompted him to make the change to Doom). But people adjusted to the changes and now you are asking them to adjust back only a lot of things would've been changed as well alongside. I feel like all this would do is make the good assists even better like Disruptor or Tatsu. The bad assists are bad already not because they don't combo properly, they just lack overall utility. Assist improvements should be made on a case by case basis (which we did, a lot actually) not on a system wide basis IMO.

 

[FlyFaster]

Was that the change about Unibeam being fly cancelable or Unibeam having more hit stun?

We are VERY cautious about adding or subtracting hit stun on moves unless we absolutely need to. Like recently we had this big discussion about the hit stun on Rocket Punch and we only entertained it because he has legitimate issues with linking HSF from it at the start of throws (which shouldn't be a problem but the move is so garbage). So even if you want Unibeam hit stun increased you have to realize it affects more than just combos. Unibeam is also an assist, so now you have buffed the assist and right now in this patch it's already the BEST beam assist in the game. If Unibeam has improved hit stun to the point where Iron Man can get combos off of it that means that I can confirm a combo off of ground or air unibeam. I mean I could do Unibeam L, they would be in hit stun and dash up cancel into cr.M (the real buff we gave Iron Man which is dashes cancelable into normals like a normal character) which would lead into a full combo. Or I am flying in the air, I do Unibeam and then confirm that combo with a tri dash down j.H which has huge hit box. Not to mention that IM already has 20% damage scaling on specials (we actually had to nerf this by the way) so if he was doing Unibeams mid combos that's a damage buff to him.

Would being able to combo with Unibeam be fun? Yes it would be. Would it be balanced? We are not sure and arguments can be made either way.

OK, fair enough.

@ karst

It was some pages back, but ya, the idea was to make it so Iron Man could use unibeam in combos. But dabomb explained why you guys are against it.

 

[Dahbomb]

Iron Man can still use one more change.

But it's only going to get in if he NEEDS it or if there is some legitimate issue in some move that is causing inconsistencies, which granted the character has a lot of. We of course cant' give him new moves, otherwise I would've love to have his Knee Dive and Warmachine's War Destroyer as another hyper.

 

["God's Beard!"]

We can give him passive hyper armor and remove his ability to block, though.

 

[AnkiRendan]

Well I ended up deciding on the team I want to use. All I really ended up doing was swapping one member for another. The lawyer is out and the dark knight is in. Now I'm thinking about my options.

I know Vergil is known as one of the best anchors, but Amaterasu is known as a good anchor too. I don't think she would fare too badly on point, and her meter building is pretty good. I was thinking of using her to build meter so I could get Hsien-Ko in to do her thing and tag back out.

Of course, there's also the option of Hsien-Ko being on point, backed up by Ammy's Cold Star while Vergil waits in the back. I haven't really had much experience with Rapid Slash so I'm not sure how it could help my characters, but it does look like the best one.

Finally, I can have Ammy in the back and Vergil in the middle. But with Hsien-Ko's meter building being mediocre, I don't think Vergil gets much help at all in the event that she dies.

I'd appreciate any input. Just messing around in training mode, I feel like I'll really enjoy this change.