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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT4| Nothing Stops This Patch!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
Yeah, I did most of my damage of Machine Gun sprays but kept getting hit out of them by missiles. I did actually manage to kill Hulk when I fought the guy a second time (though I didn't realize it was him until I saw his team) by machine gun spray+ DHC into Dante Million Dollars and X-Factor cancel for the kill like you said. Good shit.
Probably haha, Dimension Slash for days.
Nova has a slide and has superior zoning options plus a superior forward air dash game. Not even comparable.
A more comparable analogy would be C Viper and Chun Li. Viper still has a 5 frame low and has way more overheads than Chun Li (like around 4 at least) plus superior reversal and zoning options along with easier damage plus better pressure. Not to mention that we now gave Firebrand self comboability from his instant overhead so his up close game solo game is way more threatening now.
Akuma N: The Raging Demon buff is a bit overboard I think. I'm not opposed to buffing it, but buffing the damage that high is kinda OD. Also, I'm not so sure about adjusting the startup on the OTG assist. It's an overhead, so that'd make it the fastest overhead assist in the game.
Amaterasu - Y
Arthur - Y
Captain America Y
Chris - Y
Chun-li - Y
C. Viper N: Her normals could use a slight damage scaling reduction as well. From 20 to 15 at least. She uses normals more in her combos than her specials, so reducing the specials won't do a whole lot to her overall damage.
Dante Y: Although I could live without the Hammer buff if it comes to that.
Deadpool - Y
Dr. Doom N: I'm kinda on the agreement that j.S is fine as is.
Amaterasu - Y
Arthur - Y
Captain America Y
Chris - Y
Chun-li - Y
C. Viper N: Her normals could use a slight damage scaling reduction as well. From 20 to 15 at least. She uses normals more in her combos than her specials, so reducing the specials won't do a whole lot to her overall damage.
Dante Y: Although I could live without the Hammer buff if it comes to that.
Deadpool - Y
Dr. Doom N: I'm kinda on the agreement that j.S is fine as is.
Magneto and Wolverine both have 6 frame lows and they do just fine. That's not even getting into the fact Chun-Li's cr.M is jump cancelable into an instant overhead(d.M). Having a low hitting cr.L isn't really needed for her(not that I'm opposed to her having one).
Both of them have a chainable cr.L, quite different there. Wolverine also has crazy pressure and Magneto has godlike mobility with solid zoning.
Damn you all for recommending a revert of the Doom Foot Dive nerf. That is ridiculous... I want all the god damn Helm Breakers nerf reverted then.
Look at this shit!!!!!
Compared to a Helm Breaker that everyone is complaining about:
At least the Helm Breaker hit box doesn't cover Vergil's entire body and clothing!
Then Spencer. His cr.L is 7 frames, one frame slower, and it's not chainable. Six frame low isn't the end of the world or anything, especially when said low is jump cancelable.
I ultimately don't care, but whenever I see someone bring up 6 frame low compared to 4 frame, I just smh. 2 frames, especially in the 1-10 range is not enough to matter in actual real life play.
As for Foot Dive's hitbox... the hitbox is also his hurtbox more or less, so there's a lot of moves that can actually beat it. It doesn't outright beat a lot of moves, since they'll at worst trade. The upper hitbox almost never comes into play outside of teleporters. On the flipside, Vergil's hitbox is a sword normal, so his hurtbox is completely disconnected with the sword so he's generally much safer using it and will beat out a lot of normals that try to punish it. Besides, wasn't the hitbox on Vergil's Helm Breaker left alone? I see no mention of that change on his list, only that he can't cancel it into s.S.
Chris Baker is a glaring omission from this list a.k.a. the guy in charge of Marvel Games Licensing a.k.a. the only guy that can actually do something about a potential patch.
Doom comes down extremely fast for a lot of non sword normal moves to anti air it on reaction.. the risk/reward is rarely in your favor. Plus that move crosses up WAY more than any of the Helm Breakers.
Also it takes a bit for Vergil's HB to get to that hit box, before which you can knock Vergil out of it. Exhibit A Justin Marvelous Wong beating out a Vergil Helm breaker on incoming with a well timed Wolverine cr.M, st.H at the grand EVO stage.
And off topic but that moment shocked me to my core. I play both characters and even I didn't know about that. I don't think anyone did in that crowd, both Magus and Yipes were flabbergasted.
Also it takes a bit for Vergil's HB to get to that hit box, before which you can knock Vergil out of it. Exhibit A Justin Marvelous Wong beating out a Vergil Helm breaker on incoming with a well timed Wolverine cr.M, st.H at the grand EVO stage.
And off topic but that moment shocked me to my core. I play both characters and even I didn't know about that. I don't think anyone did in that crowd, both Magus and Yipes were flabbergasted.
Both of them have a chainable cr.L, quite different there. Wolverine also has crazy pressure and Magneto has godlike mobility with solid zoning.
Damn you all for recommending a revert of the Doom Foot Dive nerf. That is ridiculous... I want all the god damn Helm Breakers nerf reverted then.
Look at this shit!!!!!
Compared to a Helm Breaker that everyone is complaining about:
At least the Helm Breaker hit box doesn't cover Vergil's entire body and clothing!
That footdive picture is misleading because it's very hard to see Doom's hurtbox where the hurtbox and hitbox overlap. Here's what is looks like with Doom's hurtbox highlighted:
Lots of stuff can anti-air foot dive. The hitbox barely extends beyond the hurtbox.
Doom's footdive is stupidity incarnate. If you don't make any adjustments to it, then your proposed patch is instantly less palatable.
In the case of a trade, which will happen more often than not given that hitbox, Doom gets a full combo.
The fact that there's complete overlap of hurtbox and hitbox isn't necessarily a bad thing. In the case of Helm Breaker, there are pockets that you can avoid the sword and hit Vergil or Dante. In Doom's case, he's just a giant fucking descending hitbox.
And looking at this logically, there's no reason why Doom should have a hitbox on his torso + head
In the case of a trade, which will happen more often than not given that hitbox, Doom gets a full combo.
The fact that there's complete overlap of hurtbox and hitbox isn't necessarily a bad thing. In the case of Helm Breaker, there are pockets that you can avoid the sword and hit Vergil or Dante. In Doom's case, he's just a giant fucking descending hitbox.
And looking at this logically, there's no reason why Doom should have a hitbox on his torso + head
Agreed.
Wolverine's Dive Kick was adjusted going from Vanilla to Ultimate. Doom's Foot Dive is dash cancelable FFS. They don't call it YOLO for nothing.
It's a pure derp button, we have nerfed less stupid stuff than this in the patch. Not only that but Capcom themselves have nerfed way less derp stuff than this.
If there is even a patch in the work for this game then you can bet your candy ass a nerf on Foot Dive is on there. No point in trying to fight it, it's best to come up with the most logical change on it.
Yeah, I thought that the patch was supposed to encourage intelligent play. Footdive is rarely used intelligently. And without changes, it will continue to be used in such a fashion successfully. When pros get hit with it in tournament, you can almost hear the collective groan from the crowd.
If it weren't dash cancelable, it wouldn't be nearly as bad. But since that aspect of it is staying, something else has to go.
Karsticles
Member
What if we just removed the ground bounce so you have to dash cancel it to follow up like in Vanilla?
That's too much. All I ask for is a slight hit box nerf so it's not an auto cross up in so many sitiations and less untechable time so when you trade with it Doom doesn't get a full combo. This is not even an unfair request, he can still get a full combo from it, it would still be fast and dash cancelable and it would still have a great hit box.
Face it Tiger..
Banned
Professor Beef
Banned
Anyone on PSN wanna play some late-night Marvel in about 15 minutes from now?
I think that might just irritate Doom players without addressing the main issue that people have when fighting Doom. Though, the removal of the groundbounce might be an easy way of adopting the whole "reduce untechable recovery from j.S" nerf.
The reduction of the hitbox wouldn't change the fact that Footdive would still be considered an incredible move. It's super fast, short startup, has quick recovery, is dash cancellable, causes hard knockdown. The only change is that Doom would have to think about his opponent's options more before throwing it out there, and there would be more consistent punishes on the opposite side (much like what was done to Helm Breaker).
Karsticles
Member
Code:
D F K Z
Akuma N N Y N
Amat Y Y N N
Arthur Y Y Y Y
Cap Am N Y N Y
Chris N Y N N
Chun-li Y Y N N
C. Vip N N N N
Dante N Y Y Y
Deadpl Y Y Y Y
Doom Y N N NWe are officially done with Deadpool and Arthur.
Zissou or Frantic, would either of you be willing to keep track of everyone's grievances by character?
Karsticles
Member
Thank you. Akuma is probably the easiest to resolve, and he is first on the list.
Dante demolishes Hulk/ Anything that puts character in a special state goes through armor. If he tries that gamma wave nonsense just hit him with grapple. Unless he x-factors he's screwed.
Professor Beef
Banned
I wish Hulk had Log Trap instead of Raccoon.
Karsticles
Member
I wish Dormammu had Hidden Missiles.
Professor Beef
Banned
I just hate how Log Trap is chained to a shitty character. It's like Captain Commando, but worse because I actually LIKED using him.
Make raging demon cause a crumple. I think the crazy damage is fine, but people will get hung up on it and use it to discredit our list. Causing a crumple will accomplish functionally the same thing damage-wise, but it will be more like other level 3 grab hypers, so people wouldn't bat an eye.
Karsticles
Member
In Marvel 3, teleport and shitty character do not make sense together.
You are probably right. If Akuma were way down the list, it might not be a problem, but if people see the damage on that for our first character...
Sigh.
What are your thoughts on a Doom j.S nerf? I'm thinking we won't get away with no changes at all, and as the resident Doom player I'm curious what you think makes the most sense.
If only we had Max in here to help us. Though I don't know if be would be much help nerf-wise, he loves gettin dem foot daves.
Max himself considers Doom like a top 3 character so yea he would propose nerfs.
Raging Demon causing a crumple is kinda weird to me... the whole point of that super has been that the screen goes black, you see a bunch of flashes and the opponent is lying flat on the ground. Having it end in a crumple takes away from the history of the Raging Demon.
Or just increase knockdown time enough that Akuma can Demon Flip into Dive Kick for OTG pick up. It already causes a hardknockdown state just not long enough.
Raging Demon causing a crumple is kinda weird to me... the whole point of that super has been that the screen goes black, you see a bunch of flashes and the opponent is lying flat on the ground. Having it end in a crumple takes away from the history of the Raging Demon.
Or just increase knockdown time enough that Akuma can Demon Flip into Dive Kick for OTG pick up. It already causes a hardknockdown state just not long enough.
I think this is a good solution, personally.
Character grievances:
Akuma:
God's Beard: +Raging Demon now does 900,000 damage. This is obscene. There's no legitimate reason for Akuma to have this.
Zissou : Raging Demon damage
Dahbomb: Raging Demon damage
Frantic: Raging Demon damage
Total Grievances: Raging Demon x4 otherwise no issues with the character
Amaterasu:
Karsticles: maybe Divine Instruments should cause a crumple state?; Thunder Edge +1 on block should read Thunder Edge L; should we let her air dash backward like the change we made to Chun-li?
Zissou: not sure about allowing meter building during veil of mist. DHCing slow super into something like astral vision could get absurd. You can already be juggled for 50% life by soul fists, and mixing in soul drains (which might work during veil of mist) things could get out of hand.
Total Grievances: Issue of allowing her to combo into LVL3, allowing air dash backward and allowing meter gain during Veil of Mist for team partners
Captain America:
Dahbomb: Carthweel change
Karsticles: Cartwheel change
Total Grievances: Only an issue on the Cartwheel, everyone agrees with the rest
Chris
Dahbomb: Overhead and M/H Grenades grievances
Zissou: I don't think the prone position change is necessary. It's already an effective move in some situations and is difficult for certain characters to deal with.
Total Grievances: Overhead, M/H grenade and Prone position issue
C Viper:
God's Beard: -EX moves can no longer be canceled into one another. What's the problem with this? She spends a bar to cancel thunder knuckle. Big deal.
Karsticles: Her level 3 needs to cause a post-hyper crumple state to be brought in line with other level 3s
Frantic: Her normals could use a slight damage scaling reduction as well. From 20 to 15 at least. She uses normals more in her combos than her specials, so reducing the specials won't do a whole lot to her overall damage.
Zissou: not sure about taking away cancelling ex moves into each other. Like others have said, you can make bionic arm safe by spending a bar for the DHC, so what's the difference? I'd rather her scaling be further nerfed- even reducing special max scaling from 30% to 20% her damage is still really high.
Dahbomb: EX cancelling into EX moves should not be taken out
Total Grievances: EX cancel into EX issue, LVL3 being comboable and scaling on normals/specials still not low enough
Chun Li:
Zissou: not sure why she needs her cr.L to hit low. Her up close game is already really fast and difficult to block and cr.M hits low and is only two frames slower than her cr.L anyway.
Karsticles: "Shichisei Ranka now air OK" - this needs another change, I think; all of our level 3s are either being given utility or post-combo follow-up. This should cause a crumple state; EX Spinning Bird Kick should probably be a little less safe on block - I vote that we change it back to -6 but make it hyper cancelable; I don't see the point of Spinning Bird Kick negating pushblock
Total Grievances: Cr.L hits low, EX SBK, SBK push block negation and LVL3 issues.
Dante:
Dahbomb: Against Hammer buff
Frantic: Although I could live without the Hammer buff if it comes to that.
Total Grievances: Only a Hammer issue, otherwise no problems with the character
Dr. Doom:
Karsticles: I am against the j.S nerfs.
Zissou: I still think footdive is fine and I don't understand why molecular shield assist is being changed from the M to the H version. What was the explanation on that?
Frantic: I'm kinda on the agreement that j.S is fine as is.
Total Grievances: Foot Dive controversy and explanation for Molecular Shield change
Akuma:
God's Beard: +Raging Demon now does 900,000 damage. This is obscene. There's no legitimate reason for Akuma to have this.
Zissou : Raging Demon damage
Dahbomb: Raging Demon damage
Frantic: Raging Demon damage
Total Grievances: Raging Demon x4 otherwise no issues with the character
Amaterasu:
Karsticles: maybe Divine Instruments should cause a crumple state?; Thunder Edge +1 on block should read Thunder Edge L; should we let her air dash backward like the change we made to Chun-li?
Zissou: not sure about allowing meter building during veil of mist. DHCing slow super into something like astral vision could get absurd. You can already be juggled for 50% life by soul fists, and mixing in soul drains (which might work during veil of mist) things could get out of hand.
Total Grievances: Issue of allowing her to combo into LVL3, allowing air dash backward and allowing meter gain during Veil of Mist for team partners
Captain America:
Dahbomb: Carthweel change
Karsticles: Cartwheel change
Total Grievances: Only an issue on the Cartwheel, everyone agrees with the rest
Chris
Dahbomb: Overhead and M/H Grenades grievances
Zissou: I don't think the prone position change is necessary. It's already an effective move in some situations and is difficult for certain characters to deal with.
Total Grievances: Overhead, M/H grenade and Prone position issue
C Viper:
God's Beard: -EX moves can no longer be canceled into one another. What's the problem with this? She spends a bar to cancel thunder knuckle. Big deal.
Karsticles: Her level 3 needs to cause a post-hyper crumple state to be brought in line with other level 3s
Frantic: Her normals could use a slight damage scaling reduction as well. From 20 to 15 at least. She uses normals more in her combos than her specials, so reducing the specials won't do a whole lot to her overall damage.
Zissou: not sure about taking away cancelling ex moves into each other. Like others have said, you can make bionic arm safe by spending a bar for the DHC, so what's the difference? I'd rather her scaling be further nerfed- even reducing special max scaling from 30% to 20% her damage is still really high.
Dahbomb: EX cancelling into EX moves should not be taken out
Total Grievances: EX cancel into EX issue, LVL3 being comboable and scaling on normals/specials still not low enough
Chun Li:
Zissou: not sure why she needs her cr.L to hit low. Her up close game is already really fast and difficult to block and cr.M hits low and is only two frames slower than her cr.L anyway.
Karsticles: "Shichisei Ranka now air OK" - this needs another change, I think; all of our level 3s are either being given utility or post-combo follow-up. This should cause a crumple state; EX Spinning Bird Kick should probably be a little less safe on block - I vote that we change it back to -6 but make it hyper cancelable; I don't see the point of Spinning Bird Kick negating pushblock
Total Grievances: Cr.L hits low, EX SBK, SBK push block negation and LVL3 issues.
Dante:
Dahbomb: Against Hammer buff
Frantic: Although I could live without the Hammer buff if it comes to that.
Total Grievances: Only a Hammer issue, otherwise no problems with the character
Dr. Doom:
Karsticles: I am against the j.S nerfs.
Zissou: I still think footdive is fine and I don't understand why molecular shield assist is being changed from the M to the H version. What was the explanation on that?
Frantic: I'm kinda on the agreement that j.S is fine as is.
Total Grievances: Foot Dive controversy and explanation for Molecular Shield change
Going to make another post to address the grievances:
Akuma: Only Raging Demon has to be changed. I say keep damage the same, increase hard knockdown time so he can do more than just air hyper after it. Should be able to Demon Flip into kick after it. While I like the idea of it being a super nuke in the game and it being unique, most people are going to flip out when they see Raging Demon doing 900K damage.
Amaterasu: I don't care about LVL3 being comboable but I agree with Zissou that you shouldn't be allowed to build meter for your partner in it either. It's a very powerful hyper and there's a big reason why meter gain is locked during it. Better to not mess with it, the character is already very good as it is.
Captain America: Just a simple Backflip change, reduce recovery by 5 frame and add those 5 frames to the invincibility of it. Otherwise the character is fine.
Chris: On Prone position, the move sort of has a slow start up to really do much practical stuff. Making it 5 frame would allow it to stuff some hypers on reaction and make match ups more manageable, like dealing with mix ups and pressure.
On my grievances, right now I think H Grenade is too good (especially with the overhead buff) and M grenade is not as good. There has to be some incentive to use M grenade in the neutral. I don't want to nerf H grenade but Chris having an overhead with it is sort of unsettling and M grenade is sort of a fluff move in the neutral. This needs addressing IMO.
C Viper: A lot of people are simply against the EX change. I say take it out. Instead just nerf the damage scaling a bit more. Still indifferent on the LVL3 change mostly because it's always going to be redundant on her.
Chun Li: Cr.L controversy (already touched upon) and SBK changes.
SBK negating push block allows Chun Li to set up incoming mix ups with an assist. A very useful attribute to have on moves. The moves otherwise are pure shit so this would make them more usable. I don't care about the EX SBK change and I am fine with her LVL3 only being air OK. That is a good enough option as it is, if she is played on anchor she can guarantee her entrance and it's not like she really needs the meter in the neutral like Morrigan.
Dante: Just revert the Hammer buff and the character is fine. He has already gotten enough buffs as it is.
Dr Doom: Molecular shield needs more clarification... otherwise there is only the issue of Foot Dive. Foot Dive has been discussed already.
Akuma: Only Raging Demon has to be changed. I say keep damage the same, increase hard knockdown time so he can do more than just air hyper after it. Should be able to Demon Flip into kick after it. While I like the idea of it being a super nuke in the game and it being unique, most people are going to flip out when they see Raging Demon doing 900K damage.
Amaterasu: I don't care about LVL3 being comboable but I agree with Zissou that you shouldn't be allowed to build meter for your partner in it either. It's a very powerful hyper and there's a big reason why meter gain is locked during it. Better to not mess with it, the character is already very good as it is.
Captain America: Just a simple Backflip change, reduce recovery by 5 frame and add those 5 frames to the invincibility of it. Otherwise the character is fine.
Chris: On Prone position, the move sort of has a slow start up to really do much practical stuff. Making it 5 frame would allow it to stuff some hypers on reaction and make match ups more manageable, like dealing with mix ups and pressure.
On my grievances, right now I think H Grenade is too good (especially with the overhead buff) and M grenade is not as good. There has to be some incentive to use M grenade in the neutral. I don't want to nerf H grenade but Chris having an overhead with it is sort of unsettling and M grenade is sort of a fluff move in the neutral. This needs addressing IMO.
C Viper: A lot of people are simply against the EX change. I say take it out. Instead just nerf the damage scaling a bit more. Still indifferent on the LVL3 change mostly because it's always going to be redundant on her.
Chun Li: Cr.L controversy (already touched upon) and SBK changes.
SBK negating push block allows Chun Li to set up incoming mix ups with an assist. A very useful attribute to have on moves. The moves otherwise are pure shit so this would make them more usable. I don't care about the EX SBK change and I am fine with her LVL3 only being air OK. That is a good enough option as it is, if she is played on anchor she can guarantee her entrance and it's not like she really needs the meter in the neutral like Morrigan.
Dante: Just revert the Hammer buff and the character is fine. He has already gotten enough buffs as it is.
Dr Doom: Molecular shield needs more clarification... otherwise there is only the issue of Foot Dive. Foot Dive has been discussed already.
For Akuma, I don't care how he happens to combo after raging demon, as long as he can. Whatever's easiest, I guess.
For C.Viper, I really think she needs a scaling nerf on her normals. It's currently 20 percent. Nerf to 15 or less.
Dante- I think he needs the hammer buff. It's not giving it more invincibility like back in the vanilla days, it's just making it less likely to whiff and leave you fucked over. You're nerfing his helm breaker already and he has shitty landing options as is.
Doom- just keep the current wording in the main change list. Appease the whiners while changing as little as possible.
SpaceHammer
Neo Member
You guys still doing open discussion about any characters or are you only focusing on a select few?
Its always open discussion but we like to go over small portions of the changelist one at a time so its easier to discuss. If you have good suggestions you can list them.
Just remember the two main rules:
*No new moves
*Can't have more than 10 changes so if you have a change on a character with 10 changes listed you need to suggest the change as a replacement
Karsticles
Member
Thanks for that awesome list, Dahbomb. My thoughts:
Akuma:
OK, let's just give it an OTG follow-up. I'll add that in since it seems popular.
Amaterasu:
Zissou mentions the Soul Drain issue, and that's exactly why I want this change. Right now, if Amaterasu DHCs to Morrigan, Soul Drain doesn't steal meter. It still removes meter from the opponent, but Morrigan doesn't get it. At the very least, I think Soul Drain should function. There may be concerns that this would be too good, but Morrigan already has long Soul Drain combos with the right team:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNN1aCcQ4WY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2I_B7rSK4E
I'm only posting those two, but Morrigan can get 6-8 Soul Drains with a lot of teammates. With two assists like Cold Star and Log Trap, she can activate Astral Vision mid combo AND chain 4 Soul Drains together. With Dante, she can chain 4-6 Soul Drains together. So, I don't think this is a big deal. If people are uncomfortable with meter gain in general, then at least let me change it to say that Soul Drain still functions, because that basically is an oversight.
I'll drop the air dash change.
I assume no one is opposed to the Thunder Edge change because it's just an issue of clarification.
Captain America:
I actually put the Cartwheel note as a courtesy to you, Dahbomb. I'd like a strong argument that this needs a particular change, and you do need to convince Zissou and Frantic as well.
Chris:
Most keepaway characters have some way to open you up. Morrigan has scary as hell mix-ups, Arthur has scary mix-ups, Hawkeye has mix-ups, etc. Chris is the only keepaway character in the game without a mix-up option. I think a standing overhead at 24 frames is fair for him.
What are the grenade issues, exactly?
I think the Prone Position change has limited use. It's only hyper cancelable. However, that has an important use in some matchups. For example, if you Prone Position Akuma, he can just jump and beam you. Let Chris cancel into his Grenade hyper to negate the beam so it's safer.
C. Viper:
EX moves canceling into one another are not the same as Bionic Lancer. Bionic Lancer requires you to DHC and change your team positioning. It also means you lose pressure once you DHC. C. Viper gets to stay on point and jump-cancels her EX Seismo cancel, which means she can immediately call a pinning assist while the opponent is in blockstun to retain momentum.
The EX cancel is also different from a DHC because when you DHC from Bionic Lancer, you pretty much have two options: chain into something that makes Bionic Lancer safe (Devil Trigger), or chain into something that can punish someone who was trying to punish you (Shinku Hadoken or something). C. Viper gets both. Her EX cancels let her stagger two invincible moves that lead to full combos, and both are safe. What Spencer DHCs offer this?
I'm open to reducing her minimum damage scaling on normals to 15%, and of course I back the level 3 change.
Chun-li:
I'll concede SBK block negation since Dahbomb showed me how it is useful.
Is anyone opposed to returning EX SBK to its current frame disadvantage on block?
Obviously I am for the post-level 3 follow-up.
c.L hitting low...I can go either way on this. We immensely improved her rushdown game.
Dante:
The Hammer change is only effective when it is low to the ground. I do think this move needs a little help. It got nerfed too hard in Ultimate, and now everyone has to cancel into it from j.S first.
Doom:
3/4 of us are against j.S nerfs, so I think it's actually on Dahbomb to convince 3/4 of us to make the changes. I honestly don't see a problem with the move. The most I'm willing to support is a decrease in its knockdown time, which also means removing his mid screen OTG combos.
Molecular Shield was changed to the H version for better projectile absorption and pinning.
Akuma:
OK, let's just give it an OTG follow-up. I'll add that in since it seems popular.
Amaterasu:
Zissou mentions the Soul Drain issue, and that's exactly why I want this change. Right now, if Amaterasu DHCs to Morrigan, Soul Drain doesn't steal meter. It still removes meter from the opponent, but Morrigan doesn't get it. At the very least, I think Soul Drain should function. There may be concerns that this would be too good, but Morrigan already has long Soul Drain combos with the right team:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNN1aCcQ4WY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2I_B7rSK4E
I'm only posting those two, but Morrigan can get 6-8 Soul Drains with a lot of teammates. With two assists like Cold Star and Log Trap, she can activate Astral Vision mid combo AND chain 4 Soul Drains together. With Dante, she can chain 4-6 Soul Drains together. So, I don't think this is a big deal. If people are uncomfortable with meter gain in general, then at least let me change it to say that Soul Drain still functions, because that basically is an oversight.
I'll drop the air dash change.
I assume no one is opposed to the Thunder Edge change because it's just an issue of clarification.
Captain America:
I actually put the Cartwheel note as a courtesy to you, Dahbomb. I'd like a strong argument that this needs a particular change, and you do need to convince Zissou and Frantic as well.
Chris:
Most keepaway characters have some way to open you up. Morrigan has scary as hell mix-ups, Arthur has scary mix-ups, Hawkeye has mix-ups, etc. Chris is the only keepaway character in the game without a mix-up option. I think a standing overhead at 24 frames is fair for him.
What are the grenade issues, exactly?
I think the Prone Position change has limited use. It's only hyper cancelable. However, that has an important use in some matchups. For example, if you Prone Position Akuma, he can just jump and beam you. Let Chris cancel into his Grenade hyper to negate the beam so it's safer.
C. Viper:
EX moves canceling into one another are not the same as Bionic Lancer. Bionic Lancer requires you to DHC and change your team positioning. It also means you lose pressure once you DHC. C. Viper gets to stay on point and jump-cancels her EX Seismo cancel, which means she can immediately call a pinning assist while the opponent is in blockstun to retain momentum.
The EX cancel is also different from a DHC because when you DHC from Bionic Lancer, you pretty much have two options: chain into something that makes Bionic Lancer safe (Devil Trigger), or chain into something that can punish someone who was trying to punish you (Shinku Hadoken or something). C. Viper gets both. Her EX cancels let her stagger two invincible moves that lead to full combos, and both are safe. What Spencer DHCs offer this?
I'm open to reducing her minimum damage scaling on normals to 15%, and of course I back the level 3 change.
Chun-li:
I'll concede SBK block negation since Dahbomb showed me how it is useful.
Is anyone opposed to returning EX SBK to its current frame disadvantage on block?
Obviously I am for the post-level 3 follow-up.
c.L hitting low...I can go either way on this. We immensely improved her rushdown game.
Dante:
The Hammer change is only effective when it is low to the ground. I do think this move needs a little help. It got nerfed too hard in Ultimate, and now everyone has to cancel into it from j.S first.
Doom:
3/4 of us are against j.S nerfs, so I think it's actually on Dahbomb to convince 3/4 of us to make the changes. I honestly don't see a problem with the move. The most I'm willing to support is a decrease in its knockdown time, which also means removing his mid screen OTG combos.
Molecular Shield was changed to the H version for better projectile absorption and pinning.
Karsticles
Member
Here are my changes to Amaterasu and Akuma given the feedback; I would like everyone to vote specifically on these two characters today in this state; I vote Y for both:
Akuma:
+Gohadoken can now be canceled into Demon Flip.
+Hyakkishu L x Hyakki Gojin (assist) now has 36 frames of startup.
+Messatsu-Gohado Ungyo (air) can now be X-Factor canceled into Messatsu-Gohado Ungyo or Agyo.
+Health increased to 850,000.
+Raging Demon hard knockdown time increased; now possible to OTG follow-up with Hyakki Gojin.
Assists: Tatsumaki Zankyaku M, Gohadoken H, Hyakkishu L x Hyakki Gojin
Amaterasu:
+Bloom’s frame data is now the same as Dark Harmonizer.
+Minimum damage scaling on normals increased to 15%.
+Minimum damage scaling on hypers increased to 40%.
+Weapon Change startup reduced to 5 frames.
+Divine Instruments untechable knockdown time increased; follow-up combo possible.
+Veil of Mist no longer prevents meter generation from meter-generation moves (Soul Drain, Pick Me Up, etc.).
+Thunder Edge L is now +1 on block.
+Devout Beads Whip and Rosary Chain Combo Ichi, Ni, San, and Shi are now special cancelable.
+Rosary Chain Combo Ichi, Ni, San, and Shi all pull the opponent in closer on block or hit.
+Amaterasu is now able to block 5 frames after the player lets go of her air dash input; air dash ceases immediately when inputs are let go of.
Assists: Cold Star H, Power Slash H, Bloom
Akuma:
+Gohadoken can now be canceled into Demon Flip.
+Hyakkishu L x Hyakki Gojin (assist) now has 36 frames of startup.
+Messatsu-Gohado Ungyo (air) can now be X-Factor canceled into Messatsu-Gohado Ungyo or Agyo.
+Health increased to 850,000.
+Raging Demon hard knockdown time increased; now possible to OTG follow-up with Hyakki Gojin.
Assists: Tatsumaki Zankyaku M, Gohadoken H, Hyakkishu L x Hyakki Gojin
Amaterasu:
+Bloom’s frame data is now the same as Dark Harmonizer.
+Minimum damage scaling on normals increased to 15%.
+Minimum damage scaling on hypers increased to 40%.
+Weapon Change startup reduced to 5 frames.
+Divine Instruments untechable knockdown time increased; follow-up combo possible.
+Veil of Mist no longer prevents meter generation from meter-generation moves (Soul Drain, Pick Me Up, etc.).
+Thunder Edge L is now +1 on block.
+Devout Beads Whip and Rosary Chain Combo Ichi, Ni, San, and Shi are now special cancelable.
+Rosary Chain Combo Ichi, Ni, San, and Shi all pull the opponent in closer on block or hit.
+Amaterasu is now able to block 5 frames after the player lets go of her air dash input; air dash ceases immediately when inputs are let go of.
Assists: Cold Star H, Power Slash H, Bloom
Doom is not going to lose his mid screen OTG combos, not even close. The untechable time I want decreased is to the point where if you trade with the move Doom doesn't get a full combo off of it. Right now the untechable time is OBSCENE... like reaching Nova level of derp which we nerfed. There is no way Doom should be allowed to get hit, roll across and then OTG you into a combo from it... it's ridiculous.
Also Zissou changed his vote just now to keep the Foot Dive nerf so it's really 2/2.
On the note of Captain America, the Backflip was always a mix up tool even in Vanilla. It didn't have invincibility frames in Vanilla so it was useless in the neutral. It was given invincibility frames in Ultimate to make it more usable on the neutral. It still does not provide the utility that it was intended and still not all that usable in the neutral due to not that much invincibility and more importantly it still has a lot of recovery. Shaving off frames from recovery and adding it to invincibility would allow it to be more usable in the neutral like it was intended to be.
On Chris, he doesn't have high/low mix ups but his throw game is ABSURD for a zoner. Gets full TOD combos from air and ground throw which makes his mine game scary. The damage output of the character combined with the heavy lockdown and chip he can produce puts him in a situation where giving him a legitimate high low mix up makes his mine game absurd. Option select throw + overhead or don't do anything let them get chipped by mines or get hit by it... all of which would lead into a dead character.
The Grenade issue I already stated. M grenade is useless in the neutral as H Grenade outclasses it by a significant margin. Instead of giving him an overhead we should be figuring out how to make M grenade more useful.
On Viper, Karst you are listing issues on why EX Seismo is absurd... not why she should not be allowed to cancel EX moves into EX moves. Let's put this another way... would you care about this mechanic if EX Seismo was punishable like EX TK? Because your grievances with the character is purely related to her EX Seismo being safe and allowing her to get free pressure off of it. She is allowed to do this in SF4 as well, no one cares in that game either because they know that if she burns 2 meter trying to bait out a button/move she is now a much worse character without the reversal option.
I will concede to the Dante Hammer change, I don't think people are interested in changing it.
I am fine with new Amaterasu and Akuma changes.
Also Zissou changed his vote just now to keep the Foot Dive nerf so it's really 2/2.
On the note of Captain America, the Backflip was always a mix up tool even in Vanilla. It didn't have invincibility frames in Vanilla so it was useless in the neutral. It was given invincibility frames in Ultimate to make it more usable on the neutral. It still does not provide the utility that it was intended and still not all that usable in the neutral due to not that much invincibility and more importantly it still has a lot of recovery. Shaving off frames from recovery and adding it to invincibility would allow it to be more usable in the neutral like it was intended to be.
On Chris, he doesn't have high/low mix ups but his throw game is ABSURD for a zoner. Gets full TOD combos from air and ground throw which makes his mine game scary. The damage output of the character combined with the heavy lockdown and chip he can produce puts him in a situation where giving him a legitimate high low mix up makes his mine game absurd. Option select throw + overhead or don't do anything let them get chipped by mines or get hit by it... all of which would lead into a dead character.
The Grenade issue I already stated. M grenade is useless in the neutral as H Grenade outclasses it by a significant margin. Instead of giving him an overhead we should be figuring out how to make M grenade more useful.
On Viper, Karst you are listing issues on why EX Seismo is absurd... not why she should not be allowed to cancel EX moves into EX moves. Let's put this another way... would you care about this mechanic if EX Seismo was punishable like EX TK? Because your grievances with the character is purely related to her EX Seismo being safe and allowing her to get free pressure off of it. She is allowed to do this in SF4 as well, no one cares in that game either because they know that if she burns 2 meter trying to bait out a button/move she is now a much worse character without the reversal option.
I will concede to the Dante Hammer change, I don't think people are interested in changing it.
I am fine with new Amaterasu and Akuma changes.
Karsticles
Member
Zissou was not right in the head when he changed his vote.
I'm okay with reducing the untechable time, but not the other j.S nerfs.
Type the change.
Throws are techable, and we're nerfing the fire to make it visable when you are out of blockstun. His throw game is only good because that's so confusing. And we nerfed his damage. Throw/overheads aren't OSes. The startup is too big. You're always choosing one over the other. Nova doesn't OS his overheads.
Figure it out, then. I don't see what can be done there.
No, I definitely am showing why EX cancels are absurd. It's just that EX Burn Kick kind of sucks.
K. I will make Dante all Ys then.
There are only 2 nerfs on j.S. Untechable time and hit box change. The hit box change is only on his posterior side which is the angle at which he hits your collar bone which makes it read as a cross up (ie. Doom can still be facing the same directio yet have the move register as a cross up).
I mean we changed Violent Axe similarly so that it doesn't register as a cross up all the time.
Captain America - Backflip recovery reduced by 5 frames (from 21 to 16), invincibility increased by 5 frames (from 1-13 to 1-18)
BTW I just saw Ultrachen's suggested changes for UMVC3... LOL! The Iron Man changes are especially lolworthy.
I mean we changed Violent Axe similarly so that it doesn't register as a cross up all the time.
Captain America - Backflip recovery reduced by 5 frames (from 21 to 16), invincibility increased by 5 frames (from 1-13 to 1-18)
BTW I just saw Ultrachen's suggested changes for UMVC3... LOL! The Iron Man changes are especially lolworthy.
Karsticles
Member
Dahbomb, do you want to play some Skullgirls?
I suggest:
+Backflip recovery reduced to 30; now invincible from frames 1-18.
And then Zissou and Frantic need to share their thoughts on it.
IMO, the only time Doom can cross you up with j.S and it's entirely ambiguous is when he has you locked down so he can position over you like Clockwork does. Otherwise, I always up-back to make sure it doesn't happen or I dash under him.
Where are you getting that frame data from? The guide just says Backflip has 34 frames of recovery.
I suggest:
+Backflip recovery reduced to 30; now invincible from frames 1-18.
And then Zissou and Frantic need to share their thoughts on it.
IMO, the only time Doom can cross you up with j.S and it's entirely ambiguous is when he has you locked down so he can position over you like Clockwork does. Otherwise, I always up-back to make sure it doesn't happen or I dash under him.
21 recovery + 13 frames invincible = 34 frames total time.
When you increase invincibility frames you automatically reduce the amount of time he is punishable for. The 5 frame reduction in recovery statement was more of a formality... all you really need to list is invincibility increased from 1-13 to 1-18.
Also James Chen made a lot of suggestions on Felicia. Don't know if they are good or not. He did make a Storm change that I really like, I may in fact be suggesting it when it's Storm's turn.
When you increase invincibility frames you automatically reduce the amount of time he is punishable for. The 5 frame reduction in recovery statement was more of a formality... all you really need to list is invincibility increased from 1-13 to 1-18.
Also James Chen made a lot of suggestions on Felicia. Don't know if they are good or not. He did make a Storm change that I really like, I may in fact be suggesting it when it's Storm's turn.
Karsticles
Member
Do you want to change the recovery and the invincibility? Because I feel like you are treating them like two sides of the same coin, and that's not the way to think about it.
*Backflip invincibility changed to frames 1-18.
Good?
SpaceHammer
Neo Member
I have been maining Thor since Vanilla and just wanted to add in my thoughts if you all don't mind.
+Mighty Spark startup hitbox extended downward more; now safe for blockstrings against crouching characters.
This is good, he needs a reliable block string that doesn't require an assist.
+Mighty Smash L super armor from frames 6-20.
This move is pretty useless currently. While armor on it is cool, you wouldn't be able to confirm it into a combo other that Mighty Thunder. How do you guys feel about making the second hit an overhead? This would add to Thor's ground mix-ups.
+Flight Startup reduced to 20 frames.
OMG YES. His flight start-up is awful. I wish 0 frame unfly was universal...
+s.H has super armor from frames 6-20.
I fully agree he needs a normal with armor but I'm not sure if s.H is the best option. Have you guys considered a.H or c.H? He is more of an aerial fighter so a.H would give him better aerial dominance (plus Thor can get thrown out of this move if timed right so it wouldn't be super OP). Armor on c.H may be a bit extreme since it's a slide as well but it has slow start-up and is punishable unless special cancelled.
edit: The reason I don't like s.H is because it has a knockback effect and it can only be converted at certain ranges as where other armor moves generally allow from a free combo (i.e. ground bounces or they have good range).
+s.L startup reduced to 6 frames.
+Startup on all versions of Mighty Strike reduced to 15-25 (charged) frames, have super armor from frames 12-30 regardless of charging.
Agree on both of these. Also, s.L has horrible recovery frames too. I'm not saying he should be able to chain it but it is super punishable.
Have you guys considered making Mighty strike a S+A move so Thor could aim it (like drill claw)? It wouldn't need new animations as you could reverse the images and such. I feel this would give him more aerial dominance that the god of Thunder deserves.
+Mighty Thunder now causes pushback equivalent to Magnetic Shockwave; startup decreased to 10+4.
If I had my way, this move would function exactly like magnetic shockwave. Thor's supers aren't that great in the neutral game.
+Air throws now cause enough knockdown to ensure Mighty Thunder can always connect afterward.
I'm on the fence on this one. It is possible to confirm his air throws if you have a fast OTG assist like Wesker. I think the design idea was that they would rather you go for Mighty Hurricanes instead of regular air grabs.
Also about Mighty Hurricane, there is currently a glitch when using this move against Ammy. Currently, this move gives you a "free" ground bounce which allows to follow up with Mighty Smash M at some point during the combo. Thor does not get this "free" ground bounce against Ammy. Once you grab Ammy, the next Mighty Smash M will not ground bounce.
As a last note, making a.H dash cancelable would be freaking awesome.
Karsticles
Member
I added the Felicia suggestions to my document; I'll update the patch list later. Most of them are just added as considerations.
Those Felicia ideas are good.
Skullgirls?
Feel free to make a specific suggestion for s.L.
I did read it, and you're saying something different than you think you are. Recovery frames are animation frames; they're independent from the invincibility frames. So you were writing out two changes when you only wanted to make one.
Those Felicia ideas are good.
Skullgirls?
I don't think that change is necessary. Thor is supposed to be an aerial character, and he already has a good high/low mix-ups. This could also provide unblockables that are too good. The goal is just to give him a bit of an anti-air tool. He doesn't need full combos off of it, since other anti-airs don't get that usually.
What is his unfly? I would think about changing that.
No armored aerial normals. Definitely not. He already has Mighty Strike. I don't see the point of s.H having armor, really, but that's for GB to defend, not me. It was his suggestion as a Thor player.
How would an A+S input help him?
Feel free to make a specific suggestion for s.L.
Not all characters have good neutral hypers, and that's okay.
Well, not everyone wants to use an OTG assist. This gives Thor another option. His j.H is a good option select. I get lots of air throws with him; it's not always possible to make a HCB input at a moment's notice.
I forgot about this glitch - I'll add it to the notes.
Haha, no way.
Then just say invincibility frames increased by 5 frames, no need to make it complicated.
Not on my PC to play Skullgirls.
I just read those James Chen changes and they are actually pretty good for Felicia. Too bad his suggestions for most other characters suck, didn't even bother to list them.
Not on my PC to play Skullgirls.
I just read those James Chen changes and they are actually pretty good for Felicia. Too bad his suggestions for most other characters suck, didn't even bother to list them.
Karsticles
Member
Basically the way to prevent Typhoon infinites/loops with the character is to have H version of Typhoon stay the same in properties but be tracking (slow start up, high hit stun/low recovery). This way her combos are unaffected by it.
The L/M versions have improved start up (basically exactly what we have now) but they don't OTG. With this method you can also just have the H version be the assist without worrying about giving it extra properties. And of course make them go all the way up to super jump height like Purification.