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[Zissou]

No, there is no way for me to punish someone who makes a Hidden Missiles call and forward techs in the air. Dr. Doom is now behind me. I don't have backwards attacks.

And I also gave you the Purification example. Why am I punished for using my best move in an appropriate situation?

I know missiles assist blows up super jump height resets- so don't do them against someone using missiles and go for grounded or normal jump height resets instead. All resets do not work equally against all teams, but this is not something that is inherently a flaw of the game. You're arguing that mindlessly spamming missiles assist while you're being comboed is braindead. I'm arguing that mindlessly doing the same reset regardless of your opponent's team comp is brandead as well.

Your purification example was that you can't safely release a stalking flare against certain teams when you hit them at super jump height by purification. You already hit them with purification- isn't that reward enough?

 

[Karsticles]

I know missiles assist blows up super jump height resets- so don't do them against someone using missiles and go for grounded or normal jump height resets instead. All resets do not work equally against all teams, but this is not something that is inherently a flaw of the game. You're arguing that mindlessly spamming missiles assist while you're being comboed is braindead. I'm arguing that mindlessly doing the same reset regardless of your opponent's team comp is brandead as well.

Your purification example was that you can't safely release a stalking flare against certain teams when you hit them at super jump height by purification. You already hit them with purification- isn't that reward enough?

No, my Purification example was that if I use Purification against an opponent, they get a free assist call on me, and I have to defend or get hit. The Stalking Flare example was secondary. And it's not certain teams, it's nearly any team. And no, doing 120K damage but then having to block is not a good trade.

And Hidden Missiles was just the most convenient answer. Any assist that hits at superjump height will provide an unfair advantage, and we're adding a lot more of those assists.

Vajra
Hidden Missiles
Mystic Ray
Jam Session

Resets aren't even the primary issue. It's just getting hit at a superjump height and getting an advantage your opponent does not. Let's look at an example:
1) Magneto superjumps to Magnetic Blast Morrigan.
2) Morrigan pre-empts the Magnetic Blast and superjumps after him; she goes for an air throw, but can't get more than a j.H off; she isn't able to connect with more than a Soul Fist after this due to the height and angle.
3) Magneto recovers from the j.H and gets to call a superjump anti-air assist.
4) Morrigan has to land before she can call an assist.
5) Magneto has the advantage.

Does that situation make sense to you from a game design perspective?

 

[Dahbomb]

I had some house guests to attend so I couldn't make some arguments but it seems a lot of points are covered.

I also see that the point of "is it broken?" is raised up. Quite a few changes we have made to the game aren't inherently broken but just allow for better, smarter play. Wolverine option selecting Dive Kick with throw isn't broken, it's just extremely brain dead. Mashing Hidden Missiles to escape throw or other types of resets is brain dead.

I wouldn't have that much of a problem with it if the assist was punishable (like Lariat on the ground can be beaten) but you can't punish a Hidden Missiles call from SJ height especially when it's behind you. So there is no smart play you can make to overcome the mindless action the other player is taken, you can't punish him for it. It's simply not a smart system and quite frankly it's an exploit because there is no other situation where you can call assists at super jump height like that... Storm could do it and it got patched out.

 

[Zissou]

Currently, the system is pretty logical to me:
If you yourself super jump: you lose the ability to call assists until you a) touch the ground again or b) take a hit. The act of you choosing to super jump is the sole thing that locks you out from making assist calls. If you attain altitude in any other way, you are free to call assists as per normal assist call rules.

The super jump height reset situation and your stray air-to-air hit situation are different and involve different changes. In the super jump height reset situation, your opponent gets to call assists as soon as they're free to act again since they themselves never superjumped in the first place. In the stray air-to-air hit situation, your opponent did super jump themselves, thus locking out assist calls, and Capcom decided that once they get hit, assist calls are allowed again.

Your current wording of the proposed change is:

*Assists can no longer be called after recovering from a hit after having entered a superjump state.

This doesn't affect the reset situation, because being in "a superjump state" is not about the height of your character, it is about whether you yourself super jumped. You have to address the two situations separately. My opinion is that assist calls should be allowed if someone launches you but drops the combo or deliberately resets you after your air tech recovery is over.

For the stray air-to-air hit situation it's a little muddy, and I'm still thinking it through. On one hand, I see where you're coming from. Situations like you described can happen where two characters super jump, meet air-to-air, and the character who landed the hit is in a sense punished since the other character is rewarded by being allowed to call assists. On the other hand, the current system keeps anti-air assists in check. Like people have mentioned several times, a lot of the time, people fighting AGAINST the anti-air assist reap these benefits rather than the anti-air assist user, since you can super jump and then deliberately get hit by the AA assist and then regain the ability to call assists yourself (and stall longer in the air since your air actions are reset). It also allows characters to land more safely, since you end up in situations where you super jump and because you're opponent is landing stray hits on you or hitting you with projectiles, you stay airborne for very long periods of time- in this situation regaining assist call privileges helps you eventually land (which can be difficult to do safely already).

Dahbomb mostly cares about the reset situation and you (Karst) mostly care about the stray hit situation, so I have to keep addressing both since I'm having two separate debates with two separate people.

 

[Karsticles]

Oh right, good point about the resets.

For the stray air-to-air hit situation it's a little muddy, and I'm still thinking it through. On one hand, I see where you're coming from. Situations like you described can happen where two characters super jump, meet air-to-air, and the character who landed the hit is in a sense punished since the other character is rewarded by being allowed to call assists. On the other hand, the current system keeps anti-air assists in check. Like people have mentioned several times, a lot of the time, people fighting AGAINST the anti-air assist reap these benefits rather than the anti-air assist user, since you can super jump and then deliberately get hit by the AA assist and then regain the ability to call assists yourself (and stall longer in the air since your air actions are reset). It also allows characters to land more safely, since you end up in situations where you super jump and because you're opponent is landing stray hits on you or hitting you with projectiles, you stay airborne for very long periods of time- in this situation regaining assist call privileges helps you eventually land (which can be difficult to do safely already).

I think that anti-air systems are best kept in check through the nerfs we gave them.

Here's an example that might bring out the dumbness a bit more:
1) Dormammu vs. Arthur.
2) Dormammu superjumps to get out of Arthur's dagger spam.
3) Arthur superjumps and throws daggers; Dormammu gets hit.
4) After recovering, Dormammu teleports + calls Mystic Ray.

Should Arthur have gotten mixed up by a superjump height teleport because he made a smart play?

 

[enzo_gt]

I'm not part of the committee but Local Replay Saving and uploading as well as a Scramble mode and accurate frame data next to moves in the command list.

But Local Replay Saving is the most important thing.

 

[Zissou]

I had some house guests to attend so I couldn't make some arguments but it seems a lot of points are covered.

I also see that the point of "is it broken?" is raised up. Quite a few changes we have made to the game aren't inherently broken but just allow for better, smarter play. Wolverine option selecting Dive Kick with throw isn't broken, it's just extremely brain dead. Mashing Hidden Missiles to escape throw or other types of resets is brain dead.

I wouldn't have that much of a problem with it if the assist was punishable (like Lariat on the ground can be beaten) but you can't punish a Hidden Missiles call from SJ height especially when it's behind you. So there is no smart play you can make to overcome the mindless action the other player is taken, you can't punish him for it. It's simply not a smart system and quite frankly it's an exploit because there is no other situation where you can call assists at super jump height like that... Storm could do it and it got patched out.

The answer is- don't do super jump height resets against hidden missiles users if said resets can get blown up by mashing missiles assist. You say it's brainless to mash missiles assists while you get hit with a combo. I say it's brainless to always assume your resets will work against every possible team comp.

Oh right, good point about the resets.


I think that anti-air systems are best kept in check through the nerfs we gave them.

Here's an example that might bring out the dumbness a bit more:
1) Dormammu vs. Arthur.
2) Dormammu superjumps to get out of Arthur's dagger spam.
3) Arthur superjumps and throws daggers; Dormammu gets hit.
4) After recovering, Dormammu teleports + calls Mystic Ray.

Should Arthur have gotten mixed up by a super jumpheight teleport because he made a smart play?

This is indeed a pretty dumb situation. I still don't like locking out assist calls indefinitely after super jumping until you touch the ground again. Maybe make it time-based, like you can call assists after super jumping if you get hit, but only 120 frames after you recover from the hit. It would stay pretty similar to how it is now, but the person who ate the hit would have to wait 2 seconds before they could call an assist, so most stupidity would be avoided.

 

[Dahbomb]

I actually care about all situations. The reset situation is just something that I have to deal with more because of the characters I play so it was easier to explain. Personally a character recovering at SJ height and then calling Dark Harmonizer for free meter is lame too. That kind of strategy practically incentives getting hit by stray projectilss in exchange for meter on a Phoenix team.

You have to pull some crazy mental gymnastics to justify all of this. It's a low risk medium to high reward thing. Actually there is 0 risk to mashing assists in that situation so it becomes "derp".

I actually would not be opposed to the time limit but then it just becomes arbitrary. It should just be cut and dry, either you get to call assists in that situation or you don't.

And it's not just one reset at that height. Most air dash characters have 3 resets at that height at minimum, all are negated by Missiles and other SJ assists. That's a major portion of someone's game plan taken out of the equation due to one system mechanic favoring a few assists. And aerial resets are superior to ground resets because characters have more options to avoid resets like raw tagging, using invincible hypers, reversals etc on the ground.

For teams that abuse TACs this isn't an issue but for teams who don't get good combos from TACs this is a major problem and it makes fighting against something like Missiles even more insufferable.

 

[Zissou]

Honestly, one big worry I have about changing super jump assist call mechanics is that it could have pretty big reprecussions in the eternal struggle between zoning and rushdown characters. Zoning is currently pretty strong in marvel. Characters like Hawkeye have certain match-ups against lower mobility characters hugely slanted in his favor already. Super jumping is one of the few ways characters like Haggar can work his way in. Taking away Haggar's ability to call an assist at super jump height after eating a hit is going to make it even worse for him.

 

[Professor Beef]

I'm not part of the committee but Local Replay Saving and uploading as well as a Scramble mode and accurate frame data next to moves in the command list.

But Local Replay Saving is the most important thing.

Ability to kick people from lobbies is more important.

 

[Dahbomb]

Honestly, one big worry I have about changing super jump assist call mechanics is that it could have pretty big reprecussions in the eternal struggle between zoning and rushdown characters. Zoning is currently pretty strong in marvel. Characters like Hawkeye have certain match-ups against lower mobility characters hugely slanted in his favor already. Super jumping is one of the few ways characters like Haggar can work his way in. Taking away Haggar's ability to call an assist at super jump height after eating a hit is going to make it even worse for him.

A good point but in that situation Hawkeye can punish Haggars assist because he is on the ground while Haggar is in the air. It is disadvantageous for a Haggar player to use the mechanic like that. Besides Haggar got a big buff to his roll as did many other characters who struggled with this sort of stuff like Iron Fist.

 

[enzo_gt]

Ability to kick people from lobbies is more important.

Already on the features list.

And nah.

 

[Dahbomb]

What's Scramble mode?

 

[enzo_gt]

What's Scramble mode?

Like the SFxTK mode with multiple characters per team on each side, each controllable. Just lunacy. Fitting for Marvel.

 

[Dahbomb]

Like the SFxTK mode with multiple characters per team on each side, each controllable. Just lunacy. Fitting for Marvel.

You mean at one time or just allow 3 players to control different characters in a match? So player 1 is point, player 2 is secondary and player 3 is anchor.

 

[enzo_gt]

You mean at one time or just allow 3 players to control different characters in a match? So player 1 is point, player 2 is secondary and player 3 is anchor.

At one time is Scramble. A co-op style mode could work too, which is in SFxTK as well.

Potentially on PS3 you can do 3v3 too.

 

[Professor Beef]

Make it like MvC1 for Dreamcast.

 

[Dahbomb]

At one time is Scramble. A co-op style mode could work too, which is in SFxTK as well.

Potentially on PS3 you can do 3v3 too.

That sounds more like a MVC4 request. Could present problems with loading 6 character's move list at one time.

Although with the Cross Assault glitch we at least know that 4 characters are possible on the screen at once in terms being able to do their moves properly.

Man the PS3 is going to CHUG under those conditions.

 

[DeadPhoenix9065]

Just a quick question, did anyone talk about TAC's being used low too the ground?

 

[Dahbomb]

Just a quick question, did anyone talk about TAC's being used low too the ground?

We actually haven't, what do you want done to them?

 

[Zissou]

I assume it's a reference to TAC glitches involves whiffs close to the ground.

 

[Karsticles]

I assume it's a reference to TAC glitches involves whiffs close to the ground.

Those can still be countered in the current game, and would still cost a bar of meter in our version; I don't see them as a problem.

 

[Dahbomb]

Yea I don't see a problem either. Unless there's a big exploit involving them it doesn't really need addressing.

In option B of the TAC suggestions one of the changes implemented is giving unlimited attempts at countering a TAC so you don't get duped into a TAC glitch.

 

[DeadPhoenix9065]

Ah, forgot about the meter cost suggestion. But my only problem now with TACs has to do with Amaterasu's cherry bomb. The hit frames stay too long. If the opponent isn't blocking, they can get hit by the cherry bomb even though the animation for the explosion is gone. Also this means she can get extra bounces from TAC's.
I don't see this as a problem since the suggestions could fix this from being abused. But does this still count toward something needing to be looked at?

 

[Dahbomb]

Well that's more like a glitch though and there are quite a few glitches in the game that should be addressed (like Nova's air hyper glitch). We can't list them all so we are just assuming most of the stuff will be fixed. We are just fixing the more prevalent stuff that rears its head in high level play often, like buff stacking, RT glitch, TAC infinites, TAC glitches.

Some glitches are cool like Kuboto escspe. If that stayed I wouldn't mind at all.

 

[Tirael]

Well that's more like a glitch though and there are quite a few glitches in the game that should be addressed (like Nova's air hyper glitch). We can't list them all so we are just assuming most of the stuff will be fixed. We are just fixing the more prevalent stuff that rears its head in high level play often, like buff stacking, RT glitch, TAC infinites, TAC glitches.

What's Nova's air hyper glitch?

 

[Ghazi]

What's Nova's air hyper glitch?

I believe he's talking about this.

 

[onionfrog]

Good Games Slasher.

These Random Alls are always hilarious.

I think my chaotic flame spamming and box dash S would make Karst and Professor Beef proud. (Respectively)

lol

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

Good Games Slasher.

These Random Alls are always hilarious.

Yes, it's definitely in their nature. I think you should try out Felicia/Chris/Strider one time. I think you were doing pretty good with Chris and seemed to know his combo's, could be an interesting idea.

Also as somebody who doesn't follow the FGC 100%, can someone explain to me what the drama that is supposedly going on now. Something about pot splitting and ominous info people aren't willing to talk about or something.

 

[onionfrog]

Yes, it's definitely in their nature. I think you should try out Felicia/Chris/Strider one time. I think you were doing pretty good with Chris and seemed to know his combo's, could be an interesting idea.

Good idea, I'm going to go into to training mode and mess around with it right now.

EDIT: Why does the game always have to check for downloadable content when it first boots. I already own all of it!

Also as somebody who doesn't follow the FGC 100%, can someone explain to me what the drama that is supposedly going on now. Something about pot splitting and ominous info people aren't willing to talk about or something.

Basically due to the staged grand finals between Chris G and Flocker at VxG and general unprofessional behavior from some top players, apparently a very large sponsorship deal fell through. (The details of this failed sponsorship are currently unknown)

People are worried that continued bad behavior from top players could jeopardize both existing sponsorships in the FGC and potential new sponsorships as well.

Someone correct me if any if this is inaccurate, I've been casually following this news in the FGW thread.

 

[FSLink]

Good idea, I'm going to go into to training mode and mess around with it right now.

EDIT: Why does the game always have to check for downloadable content when it first boots. I already own all of it!

Disable notifications in options menu. You're welcome.

Also I'm picking up Iron Man lately. His combos are fun. Zero/Dante/Iron Man? Or Dr. Strange/Iron Man/Vergil...

 

[Dahbomb]

There is now also an anti collusion rule put in place which basically means that if you are seen to under perform (ie. sandbag) you will be disqualified from the tournament right there and then. Any tournament which does not follow this rule will have sponsors pull out and it will receive no media coverage from the major sites.

Note that after this rule was put into play ChrisG colluded with Sanford in GF of AE at NLBC where Spooky got mad and pulled the plug on the console. Note that the rule didn't apply to locals yet but it was extremely bad timing on their part.

Also we need to wrap up these system mechanics we have been discussing them for a week. As far as super jump assist goes I can go either way but my vote is yes. If someone else disagrees with the rule then we have to remove it... otherwise it has to pass under the 3/4 rule.

 

[onionfrog]

Disable notifications in options menu. You're welcome.
..

It still checks for DLC, but it doesn't ask me if I want to check for DLC first.
This is still faster than it was with notifications on, so thanks!

 

[Zissou]

There is now also an anti collusion rule put in place which basically means that if you are seen to under perform (ie. sandbag) you will be disqualified from the tournament right there and then. Any tournament which does not follow this rule will have sponsors pull out and it will receive no media coverage from the major sites.

Note that after this rule was put into play ChrisG colluded with Sanford in GF of AE at NLBC where Spooky got mad and pulled the plug on the console. Note that the rule didn't apply to locals yet but it was extremely bad timing on their part.

Also we need to wrap up these system mechanics we have been discussing them for a week. As far as super jump assist goes I can go either way but my vote is yes. If someone else disagrees with the rule then we have to remove it... otherwise it has to pass under the 3/4 rule.

There are two separate issues.

1. Do you allow players to call assists after super jumping if they get hit yet? (Yes, keep it like it is now/No, not at all/Yes, after some fixed period of time)

2. Do you allow players to call assists if they are launched by the opponent (having never super jumped themselves) and the opponent drops/ends the combo? (Yes, keep it like it is now/No, add a new mechanic to the game where being launched by your opponent counts as you super jumping so your assist calls are locked out until you touch the ground again)

I'm conflicted on question number 1. For number 2, I am staunchly opposed to this change and vote "Yes, keep is like it is now" for reasons I've stated previously.

 

[Dahbomb]

I don't think the engine can make that distinction, you are either allowed to call assists on recovery at sj height or you aren't. No need to make it any more complicated. Seems you are a firm no on that angle so either we proceed with 3/4 votes or someone changes their mind and we keep things unchanged.

 

[Karsticles]

No, superjump height does not disable assists. Just superjumping. If you get launched, you are not superjumping, and out change will not change that. Zissou is right that #2 should not change.

If Zissou will concede the first change, we can move on with a 4/4 vote.

 

[Ghazi]

Just wondering, why do you Gus want to change no super jump height assists? I mean that could lead to some really bs situations that we may not forsee right now and frankly would be pretty annoying. Imagine people super jumping up and using flight modes to call in or spam beam assists, or worse Hidden Missiles because you can't see the assist character. You'd get forced into super jump height if you didn't want to take chip or risk getting hit and that could be bad news for certain characters who dominate the ground space, it'd be a huge advantage for air dominating characters.


Personally I feel like that is actually fine the way it is and I wouldn't like it changed.

 

[Zissou]

Just wondering, why do you Gus want to change no super jump height assists? I mean that could lead to some really bs situations that we may not forsee right now and frankly would be pretty annoying. Imagine people super jumping up and using flight modes to call in or spam beam assists, or worse Hidden Missiles because you can't see the assist character. You'd get forced into super jump height if you didn't want to take chip or risk getting hit and that could be bad news for certain characters who dominate the ground space, it'd be a huge advantage for air dominating characters.


Personally I feel like that is actually fine the way it is and I wouldn't like it changed.

No one is suggesting what you're describing. I don't want it changed. Karst and Dahbomb want to make it even harder than it is currently to call assists after super jumping.

 

[Dahbomb]

If we are going to separate super jump recovery assist call like that then I am just going to vote to keep things as is. This would be a big mechanical change where the game would have to keep track of pre hit conditions before determining if an assist can be called or not.

What if you had super jumped and someone does an air to air confirm, brings you to the ground then launches you? This is now a messy situation where you have to keep track of the player's status way before the combo and way before the launcher. I can't get behind this change, it's going to complicate stuff. I would rather deal with the current system.

 

[Karsticles]

If we are going to separate super jump recovery assist call like that then I am just going to vote to keep things as is. This would be a big mechanical change where the game would have to keep track of pre hit conditions before determining if an assist can be called or not.

What if you had super jumped and someone does an air to air confirm, brings you to the ground then launches you? This is now a messy situation where you have to keep track of the player's status way before the combo and way before the launcher. I can't get behind this change, it's going to complicate stuff. I would rather deal with the current system.

If you touch the ground, you are no longer in superjump status.

And we are not separating anything. I think you are confused and think superjumping.and getting launched to superjump height are the same.thing in the game's code, but they are not. They are.not even related.in the game. This change has never been about what happens after you get launched.

 

[onionfrog]

Good Games Slasher.
I liked that setup where you got a full combo off wright's overhead with Trish's peekaboo assist.

Salty Balance Suggestions

Strider
+Decrease start up time on Ouroboros significantly.
Slasher hit me out of its activation too many damn times today

+Make Legion not a piece of shit.
Thankfully, this is already covered in the current patch notes

Phoenix Wright
-Maya Shield only protects wright when hit from the front.
OR
-Maya Shield takes more damage when hit from behind.

/salt

 

[Dahbomb]

Super jumping and getting launched are two different things. I know that. But super jumping, then getting hit by a combo, leading into a launch, reset -> able to call assists despite super jumping.

This situation is muddy, how would you define what would be allowed in this case?

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

So I traveled over to shoryuken for old times sake and visited the Wright forums and like us they too have been discussing balance changes for the character.
http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/180808/a-lawyer-is-someone-who-smiles-no-matter-how-bad-it-gets-the-phoenix-wright-feedback-thread

Quick summary: Bad evidence issue could not come to a well agreed solution like us and the majority rule on C.H. hitting low, air evidence okay and a shield buff.

Good Games Slasher.
I liked that setup where you got a full combo off wright's overhead with Trish's peekaboo assist.

Really I don't remeber. I don't play Trish and it was probably a spur of the moment combo.

Salty Balance Suggestions

Strider
+Decrease start up time on Ouroboros significantly.
Slasher hit me out of its activation too many damn times today

Yea, when Strider is the only character left and has three bars and X-Factor you know he is gonna Oroboros. It's just a matter of predicting when he is going to do it. It's his only way of making quick full team comebacks. For three bars it should be instant.

Phoenix Wright
-Maya Shield only protects wright when hit from the front.
OR
-Maya Shield takes more damage when hit from behind.

/salt

Aww hell nah

 

[Kadey]

Anybody around for lobby? PSN. Going to leave it on while I'll be afk for a long time.

http://www.twitch.tv/kadey1up

 

[onionfrog]

Yea, when Strider is the only character left and has three bars and X-Factor you know he is gonna Oroboros. It's just a matter of predicting when he is going to do it. It's his only way of making quick full team comebacks. For three bars it should be instant.

Thank You. Can we add this to the theoretical patch notes?

Aww hell nah

You're right, it'd be unreasonable. I was just salty.

Edit: Good Games Slasher.

 

[Professor Beef]

What's with the ragequitters today? I've had two already back-to-back.

 

[Karsticles]

Good Games Slasher.
I liked that setup where you got a full combo off wright's overhead with Trish's peekaboo assist.

Salty Balance Suggestions

Strider
+Decrease start up time on Ouroboros significantly.
Slasher hit me out of its activation too many damn times today

+Make Legion not a piece of shit.
Thankfully, this is already covered in the current patch notes

Phoenix Wright
-Maya Shield only protects wright when hit from the front.
OR
-Maya Shield takes more damage when hit from behind.

/salt

Maya Shield is getting a well-deserved buff.

Ouroboros is fine. Spiral Swords also has a startup time that makes it unsafe. All you have to do is throw a Formation B out before starting it up instead of popping it randomly.

 

[onionfrog]

Maya Shield is getting a well-deserved buff.

I guess I'll just have to hold that shit.
#NerfSlasherMcGirk

Ouroboros is fine. Spiral Swords also has a startup time that makes it unsafe. All you have to do is throw a Formation B out before starting it up instead of popping it randomly.

I'll try that.

It's more the short period of time post hyper flash where strider can be hit after activating that bothers me more.

It doesn't need to be completely safe(that would be too much). but a bit less recovery time would be nice.

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

LOL everyone listen to Lythero for patch discussions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5BgVsiEBnw

 

[onionfrog]

LOL everyone listen to Lythero for patch discussions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5BgVsiEBnw

Lmfao

Maybe for Koryu edition