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[Karsticles]

I just need Frantic's votes now.

I felt like I put a really good argument out there as to why the EX cancel nerf is nothing like DHCs. I'd like to see the response argument to that and why that feature is okay for her to have.

I really wish I knew how to play Dr. Strange.

Pair him with Rapid Slash. Best combination in the world.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Akuma can cancel his DP into Tenma-Gozanku Agyo, which is +5 on block at point blank.

HP Goshoryuken and EX Thunder Knuckle have the same exact invincibility frames, 1-10. EX Thunder Knuckle only has one invincible active frame.

C.Viper pays a bar for utility. For one bar she gets range and crumple. A second bar makes it safe. Cancelability is irrelevant to the other two EX moves. I feel like you haven't been able to present a reason why spending two bars on EX Thunder Knuckle is a problem.

 

[Dahbomb]

It's because an EX move has its own advantages and disadvantages. One of the advantages that it had was that there was no pre flash animation, now that she flashes yellow its a telltale sign of her using an EX,move, which is a nerf to her.

A regular hyper you can DHC into AND out of. If I could DHC in with EX Seismo she would be a godlike support character and could be played down the order. You also can't use EX moves as part of THCs. They obviously have to be good, better than regular hypers in fact to make up for these differences.

I feel like since you are putting a pre EX yellow signal you can afford to keep chainable EX moves. It would be easier to react to multi EX moves as it is.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I don't get the flash anyway. Is it just cosmetic to make her more like SF4? You aren't changing the startup of her moves, which aren't terribly fast to begin with. And it'd be really annoying to stop the game like Angry Scar for a couple frames every time she did an EX move, especially since it'd fuck up jump cancels on EX Seismo.

 

[Karsticles]

It's because an EX move has its own advantages and disadvantages. One of the advantages that it had was that there was no pre flash animation, now that she flashes yellow its a telltale sign of her using an EX,move, which is a nerf to her.

A regular hyper you can DHC into AND out of. If I could DHC in with EX Seismo she would be a godlike support character and could be played down the order. You also can't use EX moves as part of THCs. They obviously have to be good, better than regular hypers in fact to make for these differences.

I feel like since you are putting a pre EX yellow signal you can afford to keep chainable EX moves. It would be easier to react to multi EX moves as it is.

They're always going to be better because there is no pre-flash screen. A little flash won't change that, it'll just make things a little easier to notice. List the number of hypers that are invincible, safe on block, leads to free pressure on block, AND lead to full combos. EX Seismo is the only one. The least we can do to tone down the move is not let players use it as a frame trap from other effectively invincible moves.

Chainable EX moves are nothing like DHCs. I explained why this is the case already:
1) DHCs force a character swap; chainable EX moves do not.
2) DHCs are limited by team structure; EX moves are not.
3) DHCs that are done to make a move safe do not also lead to full combos while still being safe. You have to choose between DHCing to a safe hyper (Devil Trigger) or DHCing to a hyper that is invincible and leads to full combos, but is punishable on block (Bionic Lancer). EX cancels get both. Again, no DHC offers what an EX cancel does.

One of our goals here is to increase thoughtful play. EX cancels are not thoughtful, but proper use of EX moves are. There's no reason C. Viper should be able to do this:
1) EX Thunder Knuckle from half screen (blocked).
2) Cancel to EX Seismo (blocked).
3) Air jump cancel, call Cold Star (blocked).
4) Use Cold Star for mix-ups.

There is no team setup that provides this for two bars of meter. Plus the infinitely valuable lack of a cinematic screen. They're just too strong right now.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";75853111]I don't get the flash anyway. Is it just cosmetic to make her more like SF4? You aren't changing the startup of her moves, which aren't terribly fast to begin with. And it'd be really annoying to stop the game like Angry Scar for a couple frames every time she did an EX move, especially since it'd fuck up jump cancels on EX Seismo.[/QUOTE]
It's a little way to help differentiate her moves from the opponent. EX Thunder Knuckle becomes more obvious at mid-screen, for example.

 

[Dahbomb]

Again your arguments have now boiled down to "EX Seismo is too good".

For two meters, you can do Bionic Arm -> Spiral Swords/DT/Sogenmu and then pressure after it. You can go from DT to Bionic Arm but you can't go from DT to EX Seismo.

Viewtiful Joe has a meterless dodge that he can cancel into Uppercut for a combo or safety or he can spend one bar into Mach Speed for insane invincibility.

 

[Karsticles]

Again your arguments have now boiled down to "EX Seismo is too good".

No, it's "EX Thunder Knuckle canceled into EX Seismo is too good". If C. Viper is in my face, I feel she earned the EX Seismo because it's basically a better Double Lariat for 1 bar of meter. That makes sense to some degree. What does not make sense is C. Viper plowing right next to your character and then getting that option.

And of course I'm going to use EX Seismo as the example - EX Thunder Knuckle can only cancel into two moves (not itself), and EX Burn Kick is kind of ass. I'd be willing to look at an EX Burn Kick buff if anyone has ideas, by the way.

 

[Dahbomb]

That's a two bar option, I already showed you how duos can already do that.

Bionic Arm -> Utility hyper
Speeding Tackle -> Utility hyper
Hyper Charging Star -> Utility hyper
Full Screen Hailstorm -> Berserker Charge

So are these teams now brain dead because for two bars they get in PLUS they get pressure after the initial meter burn? Of course its not brain dead because its a huge allocation of resources for something that might not even lead into anything if both EXs are blocked. Stuff like Doom Ammy THC is WAY derpier than this or Spencer plus Dante THC (get in for free, combo on hit and get free mix ups).

We wouldn't even be having this discussion if EX Seismo was unsafe on block. Personally speaking that has always been my issue with that move. No one cares about any of her other moves but EX Seismo alone makes Viper a top character because it basically allows her to win all rushdown character match ups on paper.

 

["God's Beard!"]

EX Seismo is her defining move, though. Playing around that is the whole game. It's cool.

What on earth does Akuma have to do with this? Akuma's DP doesn't lead to full combos, and neither does hyper canceling it.

It also doesn't cost a bar.

 

[Karsticles]

That's a two bar option, I already showed you how duos can already do that.

Bionic Arm -> Utility hyper
Speeding Tackle -> Utility hyper
Hyper Charging Star -> Utility hyper
Full Screen Hailstorm -> Berserker Charge

So are these teams now brain dead because for two bars they get in PLUS they get pressure after the initial meter burn? Of course its not brain dead because its a huge allocation of resources for something that might not even lead into anything if both EXs are blocked. Stuff like Doom Ammy THC is WAY derpier than this or Spencer plus Dante THC (get in for free, combo on hit and get free mix ups).

We wouldn't even be having this discussion if EX Seismo was unsafe on block. Personally speaking that has always been my issue with that move. No one cares about any of her other moves but EX Seismo alone makes Viper a top character because it basically allows her to win all rushdown character match ups on paper.

Holy shit, read my post.

NONE of those examples you gave do what I said.

Not a single fucking one.

The only other way I would consider changing EX moves in lieu of the cancel nerf is EX Seismo no longer being jump cancelable; instead it causes a soft or hard knockdown. Then it's more in line with Bionic Lancer. My real problem with the EX cancel is the free pressure afterward that it provides. I'd rather not go this route, though. I think it's a more significant nerf than the other suggestion.

I want to reword this:

-j.S untechable time decreased slightly; still allows for full combos off of a non-dash-canceled j.S; posterior hitbox reduced slightly.

To this for clarity, since it's the real problem:

-j.S no longer causes a ground bounce; posterior hitbox reduced slightly.

And I vote "N" on the posterior hitbox reduced slightly portion. Here are my votes in general:

Chris - Y
Chun-li - Y, though I'm not entirely certain on letting her air dash backward
C. Viper - Y, though I'd be open to an EX Burn Kick buff
Dante - Y
Doom - N; no posterior hitbox reduction; the ground bounce reduction is enough.

Also an FYI: when I do the write-up, I plan on mentioning other approaches we considered taking.

I am also going to pass the assist changes on a 3/4 vote since Zissou won't concede the superjump assist call change. I feel like we have given this a lot of time for discussion, and not a lot of headway has been made. I don't like passing things on 3/4 votes, but it seems I must in this case. I will start doing the writeup for system changes next week.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";75855943]It also doesn't cost a bar.[/QUOTE]
So you agree that your comparison makes no sense at all?

 

[Dahbomb]

Holy shit, read my post.

NONE of those examples you gave do what I said.

Not a single fucking one.

The only other way I would consider changing EX moves in lieu of the cancel nerf is EX Seismo no longer being jump cancelable; instead it causes a soft or hard knockdown. Then it's more in line with Bionic Lancer. My real problem with the EX cancel is the free pressure afterward that it provides. I'd rather not go this route, though. I think it's a more significant nerf than the other suggestion.

1) EX Thunder Knuckle from half screen (blocked).
2) Cancel to EX Seismo (blocked).
3) Air jump cancel, call Cold Star (blocked).
4) Use Cold Star for mix-ups.

1) Bionic Arm from half screen (blocked)
2) DHC into Spiral Swords (blocked)
3) Call Nova assist (blocked)
4) You just got unblockabled from half screen away using two bars


How the hell is this different from EX moves? Yes I realize that this requires team configuration but that's the difference between HYPERS and EX moves. They have their advantages and disadvantages.

Disadvantages of EX moves:

1) Cannot be used as THCs (can't do EX Seismo with Amaterasu hyper which is absurd as a THC)
2) Cannot be DHC'd into or out of to either to bail out a character OR bring in Viper with them.
3) Do less raw damage than LVL1 hypers

Viper's hypers are shit in general for bringing her in which is why she is super reliant on EX moves especially to cover her mediocre normals.

Advantages of EX moves:

1) Hard to react to because of no hyper flash screen (this is now nerfed because there is a yellow flash. In SF4 this yellow flash is not that difficult to react to so you know if she is using EX or non EX moves).

2) EX moves can be chained into other EX moves (you want this nerfed to0)


So what is even the advantage remaining of EX moves if you remove #2 from this option? The problem with EX moves is not that they are EX moves... it's that EX Seismo is way too good. If it was unsafe there would be no problem with EX moves being chainable.

The only other way I would consider changing EX moves in lieu of the cancel nerf is EX Seismo no longer being jump cancelable;

I suggested this change first and it was rejected. God's Beard just said that the bounce should be less so she has a harder time getting a combo off of it.

If she loses jump cancelable EX Seismo she is basically going to drop like 10 spots in the tier list.

 

[Karsticles]

1) Bionic Arm from half screen (blocked)
2) DHC into Spiral Swords (blocked)
3) Call Nova assist (blocked)
4) You just got unblockabled from half screen away using two bars


How the hell is this different from EX moves? Yes I realize that this requires team configuration but that's the difference between HYPERS and EX moves. They have their advantages and disadvantages.

That setup costs 3 bars now, so it's not relevant. We all know Spiral Swords is too good in its current state.

Disadvantages of EX moves:

1) Cannot be used as THCs (can't do EX Seismo with Amaterasu hyper which is absurd as a THC)
2) Cannot be DHC'd into or out of to either to bail out a character OR bring in Viper with them.
3) Cannot use EX Seismos in any way with team compositions
4) Do less raw damage than any LVL1 hyper in the game

Less raw damage isn't a downside when it leads to full combos.

EX Siemos can be used in team composition through alpha counters.

Viper's hypers are shit in general for bringing her in which is why she is super reliant on EX moves especially to cover her mediocre normals.

That's entirely fair, but has nothing to do with cancelable EX moves. These moves are still very good without being cancelable.

Advantages of EX moves:

1) Hard to react to because of no hyper flash screen (this is now nerfed because there is a yellow flash. In SF4 this yellow flash is not that difficult to react to so you know if she is using EX or non EX moves).

2) EX moves can be chained into other EX moves (you want this nerfed to0)

So what is even the advantage remaining of EX moves if you remove #2 from this option? The problem with EX moves is not that they are EX moves... it's that EX Seismo is way too good. If it was unsafe there would be no problem with EX moves being chainable.

You are overestimating the benefits of the yellow flash change. Startups on her EX moves:
Burn: 9
Thunder Knuckle: 10
Seismo: 14

In other words, they all have lower startup than a TAC attempt, and no one can counter TACs on reaction. A 10 frame flash won't break Thunder Knuckle.

Like I said, I'm open to making EX Seismo unsafe, but it would be weird if C. Viper could jump-cancel her normal Seismos but not her EX version.

I suggested this change first and it was rejected. God's Beard just said that the bounce should be less so she has a harder time getting a combo off of it.

If she loses jump cancelable EX Seismo she is basically going to drop like 10 spots in the tier list.

I have the same concerns.

Can C. Viper S-cancel EX Thunder Knuckle during its late active frames or recovery frames? If so, the EX moves could no longer be cancelable, but she could S-cancel and then go into EX Seismo. It would just provide a little more breathing room for opponents.

 

[Dahbomb]

You can react to a TAC flash, the reason you get TACs wrong is because there is still a guess on what they are doing. If there was a 14 frame red/green flash, some people would be able to break it although it would still be hard. Having the yellow flash on EX moves is definitely a nerf, especially for the EX Seismo. You are just reacting to the yellow flash, you aren't reacting to anything else... like against a Magneto tri dash you are still reacting against a j.L vs cr.L mix up there is no mix up involved with an EX Seismo... it's either block or don't block.

And even if you can't do Spiral Swords now because of the extra meter cost, you can still do Bionic Arm -> Berserker Charge -> Pressure. That was basically my point, your point was arguing that using 2 bars to get in AND set up pressure is too good when I showed that characters can already do that. Something like full screen Hailstorm into Berserker Charge is INSANELY good even on someone's tech roll because it's free overheads all day long but it's a very expensive tactic.

Like I said, I'm open to making EX Seismo unsafe, but it would be weird if C. Viper could jump-cancel her normal Seismos but not her EX version.

It's a big nerf. I am uncomfortable with it. I would've been more comfortable with it if she didn't get the other nerfs. IMO aside from the damage nerf, this is the ONLY thing she would ever need to be fair and balanced.

Going to be unavailable for the rest of the day... it's TI3 time now.

 

[Karsticles]

You can react to a TAC flash, the reason you get TACs wrong is because there is still a guess on what they are doing. If there was a 14 frame red/green flash, some people would be able to break it although it would still be hard. Having the yellow flash on EX moves is definitely a nerf, especially for the EX Seismo. You are just reacting to the yellow flash, you aren't reacting to anything else... like against a Magneto tri dash you are still reacting against a j.L vs cr.L mix up there is no mix up involved with an EX Seismo... it's either block or don't block.

I know it's a nerf, I just don't think the moves are as bad as you think they are now.

And even if you can't do Spiral Swords now because of the extra meter cost, you can still do Bionic Arm -> Berserker Charge -> Pressure. That was basically my point, your point was arguing that using 2 bars to get in AND set up pressure is too good when I showed that characters can already do that. Something like full screen Hailstorm into Berserker Charge is INSANELY good even on someone's tech roll because it's free overheads all day long but it's a very expensive tactic.

NO. That was not my point. You are missing a key ingredient in the comparison. EX TK x EX Seismo:
1) EX Thunder Knuckle from mid screen (hit opportunity 1).
2) EX Seismo cancel (hit opportunity 2).
3) Jump cancel + assist call (hit opportunity 3).

Bionic Lancer to Berserker Charge:
1) Bionic Lancer from mid screen (hit opportunity 1).
2) Berserker Charge DHC (NO hit opportunity).
3) Attack + assist call (hit opportunity 2).

EX cancels get the frame trap and post-block pressure. There are no 2-meter DHCs that offer this. I specifically said that DHCs have to choose between the frame trap or the post-block pressure, and you've consistently ignored this except for the Spiral Swords example, which is of course not relevant in our version.

It's a big nerf. I am uncomfortable with it. I would've been more comfortable with it if she didn't get the other nerfs. IMO aside from the damage nerf, this is the ONLY thing she would ever need to be fair and balanced.

We'll see where Frantic comes in on it, since he is the last C. Viper vote.

Going to be unavailable for the rest of the day... it's TI3 time now.

TI3?

 

[Sigmaah]

People complain about Dante's damage right?
My BnB with him using 2 assists (Vergil/Task) gives me about 700K+ damage and if I already have 1 bar, by the time I'm done with the combo, I build another bar and just DHC to Task for 900K+ Damage... and it's like the simplest BnB on earth lol.

His damage isn't as bad as ppl make it seem...

Hmm........

 

[Frantic]

Cap - Y

Chun - Y

Viper - Y: I feel like if you make a bad read with something like EX Thunder Knuckle, you should get punished. It's nothing like Bionic Lancer > DHC because with Bionic Lancer you have a large window to react to Bionic Lancer with an invinicible move/hyper. That's the main difference, imo. If anything, there should still be EX Thunder Knuckle > delay > Emergency Combination

Dante - Y: Although 'always connects when used near the ground' probably needs better clarification. You don't want it to connect if you Tiger Knee it or what not.

Doom - Y

Chris - N: Don't like the overhead change on Stun Rod. Leave it as is. Also don't particularly care for the prone change. I have not seen a reasonable explanation for the change other than 'it'll help him dodge beams' or some such, and I don't know why he needs that.

 

[Professor Beef]

People complain about Dante's damage right?
My BnB with him using 2 assists (Vergil/Task) gives me about 700K+ damage and if I already have 1 bar, by the time I'm done with the combo, I build another bar and just DHC to Task for 900K+ Damage... and it's like the simplest BnB on earth lol.

His damage isn't as bad as ppl make it seem...

Hmm........

It's just Dante players being greedy. Par for the course.

EDIT: I swear to christ my mind goes blank and I'm like a bull charging at a bullfighter every single time I fight Dante online.

 

[hypernima]

I just need Frantic's votes now.

I felt like I put a really good argument out there as to why the EX cancel nerf is nothing like DHCs. I'd like to see the response argument to that and why that feature is okay for her to have.


Pair him with Rapid Slash. Best combination in the world.

I don't even know any good BnBs (or can execute them) besides magic xx hyper. :\

 

[Tirael]

I don't even know any good BnBs (or can execute them) besides magic xx hyper. :

Most of those actually deal respectable damage, and you would be surprised how many combos are just essentially variations on that. Consistent damage is actually extremely important. Work on proper blocking and evasion, and setups to open people up, and you're pretty much golden. The rest will come naturally with time.

 

[Karsticles]

I don't even know any good BnBs (or can execute them) besides magic xx hyper. :

My easy Strange bnb:
S, sj.mmh, wait f.h, j.mmh, j.fh, j.mmh, j.fh, h, f.h, s, sj.mmh, sj.fh, wait, sj.s, qcf.m, qcf.aa

 

["God's Beard!"]

Can C. Viper S-cancel EX Thunder Knuckle during its late active frames or recovery frames? If so, the EX moves could no longer be cancelable, but she could S-cancel and then go into EX Seismo. It would just provide a little more breathing room for opponents.

Uhh, you can't S-cancel EX Thunder Knuckle during active or recovery period.

So you agree that your comparison makes no sense at all?

Uhh, it's making an invincible move safe by spending a bar. It's not that different.

 

[Ken]

What's a good starter BnB for RR?

 

["God's Beard!"]

What's a good starter BnB for RR?

Oh geez lol

LMH6HS, jMS, rocket skates xx Mr. Flapper, Log Trap, Log Trap xx hyper?

He doesn't have a good, easy, midscreen combo unfortunately.

 

[SolarKnight]

What's a good starter BnB for RR?

Oh hey something I can be useful for

(Jump in), ground chain, S, jM, jS, (S+A) xx dp+M, dp+H, c.M, S, j.M, j.S, qcf+M xx qcf super

The last part has to be done fast, as in, inmediately one after the other, you can't wait for the trap to hit.

 

[Ken]

Oh hey something I can be useful for

(Jump in), ground chain, S, jM, jS, (S+A) xx dp+M, dp+H, c.M, S, j.M, j.S, qcf+M xx qcf super

The last part has to be done fast, as in, inmediately one after the other, you can't wait for the trap to hit.

What's ground chain? Like a ground combo?

 

[SolarKnight]

Well yeah, whatever variation of LMH you use.

 

[Tyree]

Both of them have a chainable cr.L, quite different there. Wolverine also has crazy pressure and Magneto has godlike mobility with solid zoning.

Damn you all for recommending a revert of the Doom Foot Dive nerf. That is ridiculous... I want all the god damn Helm Breakers nerf reverted then.

Look at this shit!!!!!

Compared to a Helm Breaker that everyone is complaining about:

At least the Helm Breaker hit box doesn't cover Vergil's entire body and clothing!

That footdive pic is fake.
http://youtu.be/pxYGC7zmi6o

 

[Dahbomb]

The posterior hit box in the real thing is worse than the fake one!

Granted it doesn't go all the way up to his head at least.

By the way when I first saw the Doom hit box of foot dive I thought it was a fake but people were claiming I didn't know how to read hit boxes or some shit.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Hey, better hitboxes like this than the nonsense in Vampire Savior. Ask Rotanibor about that.

edit: Looks like Viscant might be picking up Zero/Frank/Dante. I'm surprised nobody thought of that team before, as far as I remember.

 

[Frantic]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";76013847]edit: Looks like Viscant might be picking up Zero/Frank/Dante. I'm surprised nobody thought of that team before, as far as I remember.[/QUOTE]It's been around for a while, though I think the order that has existed is Zero/Dante/Frank.

 

[Dahbomb]

Zero/Frank/Dante

Two best characters in the game with their best assists.

What's the combo from Zero to Frank to get him to LVL4-5? Curious to see it, probably wouldn't be that hard.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I think it has to do with a raw tag off of a lightning loop, according to Viscant's twitter.

 

[Frantic]

There is probably something like that. I do know Zero/Dante/Frank has a baby mode level 4 with Rekkoha > Devil Trigger > raw tag > snapshot. Or, if you want level 5, and have tighter timing, you can Knee Drop > Snap Shot + Jam Session > Snap Shot if you haven't used Jam Session.

I think I prefer Zero/Dante/Frank since if Zero dies you have a character with decent options coming in with Dante rather than Frank Wack. Not to mention Dante can level up Frank up with his combos, so you have a better chance of getting Frank + Jam Session.

 

["God's Beard!"]

You can DHC Glitch off of Dante's grapple too, right?

 

[Frantic]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";76050215]You can DHC Glitch off of Dante's grapple too, right?[/QUOTE]Yep. Dante has a ton of different ways to level up Frank.

 

[Sigmaah]

I play a pretty good Zero/Frank/Dante player and what he does with Zero is his standard shit and then he does like double lightning or some shit and TACs up to get frank in. It's really good cause you never expect it and it just looks so weird lol. FUCK TACS.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";76034007]I think it has to do with a raw tag off of a lightning loop, according to Viscant's twitter.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like a lot of dropped combos.

I don't get why someone would give up point Zero to get Frank.

 

[Frantic]

I don't get why someone would give up point Zero to get Frank.

It's not 'giving up' Zero, it's making your team stronger. Why wouldn't you want a team with two of the best point characters in the game backed by their favorite assist?

 

[Karsticles]

It's not 'giving up' Zero, it's making your team stronger. Why wouldn't you want a team with two of the best point characters in the game backed by their favorite assist?

Zero on incoming is better than Frank. So you are giving up Zero mixups for Frank ones.

 

[FSLink]

Zero on incoming is better than Frank. So you are giving up Zero mixups for Frank ones.

Disagree since this was my main team for awhile. It's more that you have Lv4/5 Frank in the back when Zero dies just in case.

I still think Zero May Cry or Zero/Doom/Vergil is a stronger team just because Dante is a worse anchor (even though you can make him work).

I also think that instead of going for a TAC, it's better to just lightning loop and go for a mixup. I mean yes, there's the double TAC glitch with Zero to almost guarantee Frank but I find it harder than just straight going into loops.

 

[Frantic]

Zero on incoming is better than Frank. So you are giving up Zero mixups for Frank ones.

Sure, but that doesn't mean Frank's mixups are easy to block. Only by comparison are they easy to block, and even then it's only barely. Frank + Jam Session is multi-layered and ambiguous as they come. His basic mixup of roll + Jam Session is incredibly hard to block since there's no telling which side he'll be on. Depending on when and where Frank decides to roll, he could be on the left or the right, and there's really no way to tell. His better mixups are even more difficult to block, and I have not seen anyone block Bee's Frank + Jam Session more than once.

I just don't see why you wouldn't want to have both of them on the same team. You don't have to leave Frank in once you get level 4/5. The team is simply designed so that if one of them gets bopped, you still have an incredibly good and oppressive character coming in to clean up shop.

 

[Dahbomb]

Frank West also has some of the scariest and difficult to block incoming mix ups in the game. Zero is better... but that's why he's the best character in the game.

And where are we at with the votes? Man this patch talk has slowed down to a crawl. Let's just start on the next 10 characters so we have something to talk about.

 

[Karsticles]

        D	F	K	Z	DONE
Cap	Y	Y	Y	Y	Y
Chris	N	N	Y	N	N
Chun-li	Y	Y	Y	Y	Y
Viper	N	Y	Y	Y	Y
Dante	Y	Y	Y	Y	Y
Deadpl	Y	Y	Y	Y	Y
Doom	Y	Y	N	N	N

Basically, under 3/4 rules, C. Viper is done. Everyone else has consensus except for Doom and Chris.

I will remove the Chris overhead and change prone position back to its previous form. Please vote Y/N on this version of new version of Chris:

Chris:
*Grenade fires now dim significantly when the active frames have finished.
+Flamethrower vertical hitbox increased; slight upper body invincibility on assist version.
+s.S now cancels Chris’ Grenade Launcher and Satellite Laser hypers.
+Grenade Toss L +1 on block.
+Combination Punch follow-up inputs made more lenient.
+Gun Fire L grounded hitbox extended downwards; no longer whiffs up close.
-Flamethrower damage reduced to 120,000 maximum.

Assists: Gun Fire M, Grenade Toss H, Flamethrower

Doom's j.S nerf also received two "N" votes. I suggest this version of Doom as a compromise. The video we saw demonstrates that the posterior hitbox is not too big; it's actually very reasonable.

Doctor Doom:
+Molecular Shield inputs can now be held to keep the shield active for more frames before releasing the rock; 30 frames max; startup decreased by 2 frames across the board; L version now -3 on block; M version now -1 on block; H version now +1 on block.
+Hidden Missiles is now dash and hyper cancelable.
+j.L hitbox improved so that it can hit small crouching characters while tri-dashing.
+Recovery after a forward air throw reduced slightly.
+j.f+H hitstun increased slightly.
-Hidden Missiles (assist): fires two fewer missiles; missiles which have not yet gained their tracking property fail to do so.
-Plasma Beam no longer appears behind the point character.
-j.S no longer causes a ground bounce.
-Damage on normals reduced by 10% across the board.

Assists: Plasma Beam M, Molecular Shield H, Hidden Missiles

My votes:
Chris - Y
Doom - Y

 

[Karsticles]

Please vote on the next 10 characters while deliberations continue on Chris and Doom:
Dormammu
Dr. Strange
Felicia
Firebrand
Frank West
Ghost Rider
Haggar
Hawkeye
Hsien-ko
Hulk

Remember that a "Y" vote may not be retracted once it is made.

 

[Dahbomb]

If j.S doesn't cause a ground bounce will he still be able to combo after it?

Also I just noticed that you kept that Flamethrower upper body invincibility? I thought we didn't put that in!!! Nah man that has to go, as an assist that's too good. Even if you make Flamethrower a regular assist, it would still be insane good for the lock down and combo extension.

Voting no on the upper body invincibility on Chris's Flamethrower assist. Especially if you are buffing the vertical hit box on it.

 

[Karsticles]

If j.S doesn't cause a ground bounce will he still be able to combo after it?

Also I just noticed that you kept that Flamethrower upper body invincibility? I thought we didn't put that in!!! Nah man that has to go, as an assist that's too good. Even if you make Flamethrower a regular assist, it would still be insane good for the lock down and combo extension.

Voting no on the upper body invincibility on Chris's Flamethrower assist. Especially if you are buffing the vertical hit box on it.

It's going to be difficult to time as an AA assist. It's not invincible, just upper body invincible. It will be like we're making Gustaff Fire.

Doom can still combo off of j.S without the ground bounce. He doesn't get the ground bounce in his combos, so it doesn't affect them at all. The only difference is that he'll have to dash-cancel the j.S sometimes to follow up from it (making it take more skill to use), and he won't be able to trade hits and still have time to hit confirm.

 

[Dahbomb]

It has more horizontal reach and more active frames than Gustaff, it's not supposed to be an AA (even in the neutral). If it was actually good as an AA then Chris would not struggle against that portion of the screen where he is weak against.

I am fine with the Doom change then although you should probably clarify in the explanations (when you get to them) that Doom can still follow up.

On the new characters:

Dormammu - Yes
Dr Strange - No, the 7 Rings change is a bit extreme. This change basically makes him even better at shutting down and punishing zoners.
Felicia - Probably should go over the James Chen changes as well, there were some good ones in there that we might be able to incorporate in. Otherwise I am indifferent on Felicia.
Firebrand - Yes
Frank West - Yes
Ghost Rider - No, Need specification that Hellfire on block is a change in block stun, not recovery. Also Heartless Spire is upper body invincible as an assist only right?
Haggar - No on projectile negations on Pipe. Would allow him to bully rushdown characters even more who have to use a beam assist just to get in on Haggar.
Hawkeye - Yes
Hsien Ko - No, Henkyo Ki needs the appropriate hit stun change to balance out the change in recovery, otherwise she might have infinites with it (she already has loops with it). I definitely remember recommending this, not sure why it's not in there.
Hulk - Yes

 

[Karsticles]

My votes:

Dormammu - Y
Dr. Strange - N; EoA and Dagger of Denak not longer making him prone until landing
Felicia - N; She currently has 13 changes with the James Chen suggestions; we need to narrow this down. I recommend removing both of the James Chen suggestions and the dash speed increase change.
Firebrand - Y; though I expect we are going to have a conversation about his unblockables still
Frank West - Y
Ghost Rider - Y
Haggar - N; we need to talk about projectile negation on the pipe and reword the c.H change for clarity
Hawkeye - Y
Hsien-ko - Y
Hulk - Y

 

[Dahbomb]

Increased command throw range?

PLEASE!!!!! Who the hell recommended that? She already has a solid command throw range. It was probably QisTopTier...

Also multiple Cat and Mouse versions? What's the basis for that?

 

[Karsticles]

Increased command throw range?

PLEASE!!!!! Who the hell recommended that? She already has a solid command throw range. It was probably QisTopTier...

Also multiple Cat and Mouse versions? What's the basis for that?

Um, multiple Cat and Mouse versions was the James Chen suggestion that you said was really interesting, so I included it...

There is no suggestion about increased command throw range that I see.