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[Karsticles]

Could you explain the 'projectile invincible' part of the 0D3C buff? I assume it's meant thay Dormammu himself becomes projectile invincible since the move itself moves along the ground in a way that it wouldn't be able to interact with other projectiles in the first place. My concern is that if there is complete projectile invincibility, someone trying to punish an assist call at a distance with a beam hyper ends up getting hit with 0D3C for their trouble. Maybe make Dormammu invincible to low/medium durability projectiles as a compromise? Otherwise Dorm gets meterless seven rings.

Dormammu doesn't become projectile invincible, but 0D3C comes out on frame 1 and is projectile invincible. So yes, it does counter beam hypers. Basically, it's an option to shut down random beams done by the opponent. 0D3C does clash with beam hypers. Actually, believe it or not, Dark Dimension is such a piece of shit that it loses to beam hypers. I should have fought for that change, but whatever.

Taking a closer look at the frame data in the guide and looking at the hitbox on youtube, this change is probably fine.

K.

The earliest that seven rings can hit somebody is 27 frames and gimlet is -50 on block. I don't understand why it doesn't work currently. I guess active frame for gimlet are practically non-existent and that's the issue (active frame are over during Strange's hyper flash or something?)

Basically, Dr. Strange is projectile invincible on frame 1, but the beam won't activate until frame 27 (or whatever). One option is to just make Dr. Strange's beam appear on frame 1, and I honestly don't see why that would be a big deal.

I just don't understand how mix-ups are where Felicia is lacking. She already is scary up close. It seems like fixing something that's not broken with the potential to have unintended conseqeunces.

I fully intend those consequences, though!

Felicia definitely has weak mix-ups, because Cat & Mouse is really slow. I mean when Felicia is in your face, this is what you have to look out for:
1) Command grab.
2) Low.
3) Air throw.

That's it. Compare that to Wolverine:
1) Instant overhead.
2) Left/right mix-up.
3) Low.
4) Air throw.
5) Ground throw.

Cat & Mouse isn't good enough for mix-ups, and there's no way that anyone here thinks her pressure is better than Wolverine's. Making it special cancelable gives her a new tool to mess with. Cat & Mouse x Command Grab.

Do you agree with me on the Rolling Uppercut part?

I was unaware that Ryu had a Hadouken buff. Hell spitfire currently sees use. Firebrand can chuck fireballs at a good clip and he can shoot them at the angle of his choosing.

It currently sees use because it's better than nothing, but it's not good. It's about as effective as spamming Low Voltage H with Trish in the air.

Trish's is 13 frame start-up and universally agreed to be good (can't always convert to combo on hit easily), and Phoenix's is 15 frame start-up and only ground bounces airborne opponents and it still sees neutral use. I'd be fine with a slight reduction in start-up, but 10 frames seems too quick.

Trish and Phoenix can both special cancel theirs into amazing stuff. Trish cancels hers into traps, fireballs, and flight. Phoenix cancels hers into teleports and flight usually. Plus, their dive kicks aren't shit on block. The auto-fly Firebrand goes into his dive kick is so goddamn annoying.

Didn't Frantic comment on this? I'll have to look back through the thread.

IIRC, we resolved his concerns.

You can do a 400k+ damage combo extension with chaos tide which builds back a ton of meter, no? I'll try to find video. Seems like it could lead to infinites or lightning loop level damage.

It definitely wouldn't lead to infinites, because once Chaos Tide is up the helper has to slowly fly off the screen. There are setups like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRr8fq2lf60

But that's not doing any more damage than a normal bnb. He won't get 400K as a late-combo extension. At max he gets around 200K with that string, making his bnb do 600K for 2 bars of meter. Yes, he'll build most of the 2 bars back, but I don't see that as inherently problematic due to the low damage and the fact that your opponent is gaining a ton of meter in the process.

It's important to also note that Chaos Tide is mega ass in the neutral. It's pretty much only useful in three situations: combos, chipping out very low health opponents, and trying to waste some of your opponent's X-Factor time.

I think the universal health buff is a boon to Frank. Take Noel Brown's Frank team- Wolverine/Frank/Wesker. In the current version of the game, if I land the first hit, he loses Wolverine and has to fight with lvl1 Frank. If he lands the first hit, he has a 66% of killing my character and gaining access to a ridiculously powerful character. In our proposed patched version, the scenario is different. If I land the frst hit, I can't kill Wolverine and he has another chance to level up Frank as planned. If he lands the first hit, he has a 100% chance to get a ridiculously powerful character. In the current version of the game, Frank teams have a somewhat balanced risk-reward. If the Frank player gets the first hit, they are at a gigantic advantage (will likely win the game) and if their opponent gets the first hit, the Frank player is fucked. In our proposed update, Frank players still get the win the game when they land a hit, but they get more chances to land that hit. Paddlesaw chip nerf doesn't matter when you have no tools to fight paddlesaws- it just takes him twice as many braindead j.Ms to kill you.

What do you suggest, then?

Considering the bike's speed, I guess I'm fine with that specific change. Dp.H is different from photon shot- maybe Deadpool jumping medium guns would be a better comparison. Deadpool covers normal jump height in front of him and it goes full screen but his projectiles have ass for durability points. Ghost Rider is firing ten Hadouken strength projectiles.

Deadpool guns are also not a good example, as they leave him with a heavy + on block, letting him spam them. Ghost Rider's dp.H is like -45 on block. Go into training mode (if you have your TV set up) and try spamming dp.H from full screen, and you'll see how much of a non-issue this is. It'll still be a situational harassment tool, but a less crappy one.

Tri-dashers are already being nerfed by the system changes by losing OSing throws during tri-dashes. I would like to avoid double nerfing or double buffing anything unintentionally.

That's not a matchup issue, though. And I'm curious why something like Ghost Rider's upper body invincible b.H is a problem for you, but Morrigan's Shadow Blade H isn't, even though it has way faster startup, a ton more hitstun, and covers a massive portion of the screen. To me, the upper body invincible assists like Flamethrower and Ghost Rider's b.H are just a way to give them a Shadow Blade H-like move as an option.

 

[Dahbomb]

Felicia has a ground throw as well and she has a right/left with cat mouse plus assist (about as effective as Cap's mix ups). Not saying she is better but let's not undersell her. Also her utility hyper with the help of an assist gives her soft unblockables. Main difference between her and Wolverine is that Wolverine just has better normals which leads to better OS thanks to his dive kick along with his ability to pressure with Berserker Charge.

I am indifferent on the Cat and Mouse change mostly because I don't think its THAT great in the current game and because I can't find much of a way to exploit a special cancelable Cat and Mouse. I am sure there would be tech but its hard to say exactly what would come up with it.

 

[Karsticles]

Felicia has a ground throw as well and she has a right/left with cat mouse plus assist. Not saying she is better but let's not undersell her. Also her utility hyper with the help of an assist gives her soft unblockables.

Wolverine's utility hyper is way better.

Felicia has a ground throw, but I'm not going to list 2 ground throws. It's not like I have to think about a ground throw and a command throw when Felicia is in front of me. She has Cat & Mouse + assist, but it's really slow and pushblocking her generally keeps it from crossing up. I actually haven't been hit by a Cat & Mouse cross-up in ages because I'm always pushblocking her away. Wolverine doesn't have the same problem with Berserker Slash. I think the move needs this bit of love.

 

[Dahbomb]

Its been ages since I tested this but I am pretty sure a push block puts Wolverine at the exact distance where even a H Berserker Slash will not cross up, negating that mix up. You mostly get hit by the Berserker Slash when you don't push block him or he whiffs a normal into B Slash or he does it raw.

In any case I agree the move could use some love. If special cancelable Cat and Mouse is not accepted then you can maybe improve its speed and/or its frame data.

 

[Zissou]

Can you guys give examples of mix-ups that special-cancellable cat and mouse would allow? Something concrete would help me understand your ideas better. Also, what do our resident Felicia players think?

Give me a bit of time to mull over the other characters' proposed changes some more. I'm surprised I'm alone in my thoughts on Frank.

 

[Karsticles]

Its been ages since I tested this but I am pretty sure a push block puts Wolverine at the exact distance where even a H Berserker Slash will not cross up, negating that mix up. You mostly get hit by the Berserker Slash when you don't push block him or he whiffs a normal into B Slash or he does it raw.

In any case I agree the move could use some love. If special cancelable Cat and Mouse is not accepted then you can maybe improve its speed and/or its frame data.

Yes, but Wolverine can be hard to pushblock in some situations where he does this. The big difference is that B Slash hits.

I don't like making Cat and Mouse more like combat rolls. Give it something interesting.

Can you guys give examples of mix-ups that special-cancellable cat and mouse would allow? Something concrete would help me understand your ideas better. Also, what do our resident Felicia players think?

Give me a bit of time to mull over the other characters' proposed changes some more. I'm surprised I'm alone in my thoughts on Frank.

I'm a bit with you on Frank West, but how else could he be toned down?

Felicia examples:
Hit, CM + Sentinel Force, right as you cross up cancel into Cat Spike H for a second crossup. If pushblocked on your hit, your just regained pressure a bit.

Ryu Hadoken, CM through it x command grab to punish.

CM to advance on Dormammu through Dark Hole x Cat Spike to counter hit.

CM + Sentinel Force x command grab immediately for fake crossup.

 

[Dahbomb]

Giving Frank less chip means characters can survive his chip for 120% longer time (twice as long for the chip nerf and then an extra 20% for health). That's a lot more time for a character to mount an offense, call a beam assist to lock him down and open him up. Frank wins many match ups one on one free but not super free against assisted characters, he still has to respect hit boxes on the screen. Its similar to mounting an offense against Haggar as a rushdown character, its hard but doable. At least his saws don't negate projectiles lol.

I know system mechanics sort of help out Frank more than before but there's no guarantee on what TAC system may be implemented. Remember that Frank is a level up character, if he is not top 2 point character in the game then he's garbage.

 

[Karsticles]

It's also worth noting that since TACs now cost a bar, Frank isn't going to be killing anyone off of a first combo.

 

[onionfrog]

Can you guys give examples of mix-ups that special-cancellable cat and mouse would allow? Something concrete would help me understand your ideas better. Also, what do our resident Felicia players think?

I like the change, it would give Felicia some interesting multi-layered mixups, while being a more interesting change than just speeding up the roll.

Felicia examples:
Hit, CM + Sentinel Force, right as you cross up cancel into Cat Spike H for a second crossup. If pushblocked on your hit, your just regained pressure a bit.

Ryu Hadoken, CM through it x command grab to punish.

CM to advance on Dormammu through Dark Hole x Cat Spike to counter hit.

CM + Sentinel Force x command grab immediately for fake crossup.

These are the kinds of interesting, multilayered mixups I was thinking of.

I don't like making Cat and Mouse more like combat rolls. Give it something interesting.

Agreed.


I'd be okay with removing the jump cancellable rolling uppercut change. But if you guys want it,I'll let it rock.

 

[Dahbomb]

It's also worth noting that since TACs now cost a bar, Frank isn't going to be killing anyone off of a first combo.

That's actually a good thing that he isn't going to kill because if the character dies before Frank properly levels up then he is sort of in a bad position ironically.

 

[Karsticles]

That's actually a good thing that he isn't going to kill because if the character dies before Frank properly levels up then he is sort of in a bad position ironically.

That should never happen unless your opponent starts getting hit at like 20% life. Proper combo management ensures that Frank West will always get the picture. You just have to TAC earlier, cut the combo short, etc.

 

[Dahbomb]

Well again that's assuming that Capcom would even implement our plan A change over just making simple changes to TAC. The safest way to get Frank to LVL4/5 is by doing a Nova/Skrull/Tron DHC into him. You would need to build one bar in the combo to get two bars and sometimes the character does die during the first hyper.

In any case an additional nerf to Frank has to be seriously discussed before approval.

 

[Ghazi]

So if TAC's cost a bar now, you guys are removing it's other bar altering properties (+1, -1 bar) right? What about Up TAC's doing the most damage, will all directions do the same damage?

 

[Dahbomb]

So if TAC's cost a bar now, you guys are removing it's other bar altering properties (+1, -1 bar) right? What about Up TAC's doing the most damage, will all directions do the same damage?

There's no real difference now as to which direction you TAC into... which I guess is a bit of a fault of the new system because everyone will just TAC into the direction that gives them the best combos. Meter gain is locked during any combo after TAC, hit stun builds back up normally but if any character touches the ground then scaling is set to maximum. There's no extra damage or meter change after a TAC.

I personally like my option B better though. Less of a drastic change and more chance of actually being implemented.

 

[Professor Beef]

Someone sent me some rage mail, FINALLY. Called Team Kusoru "cheap shit."

My day has gotten a little better.

 

[smurfx]

hawkeye on point is so much damn fun so why don't you ever see it being played?

 

[Dahbomb]

Shouldn't we have a tally of which of the new 10 characters we need to discuss? I think a few of the characters went by without any grievances.

 

[Karsticles]

And you know, I don't really get the Ice Breaker M change for Hawkeye. Neither does Frantic, apparently. Does someone understand what GB intended for that change to be?

Shouldn't we have a tally of which of the new 10 characters we need to discuss? I think a few of the characters went by without any grievances.

I said that since I changed some character stuff around due to feedback from you and Frantic, everyone needs to revote on them.

Here, I made a sheet for quick reference so everyone can know where we are:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Ah4zxqcb0_eodHVySXhJc1pUVXhJM1JmcGxmWEdldlE&output=html

After the changes I made from feedback, I think Firebrand is the character that needs to be talked about the most.

 

[Dahbomb]

I think he probably means to use the ground bounce in a juggle situation, which is fair I guess most ground bounces hit aerial opponents and still ground bounce them. Unless I am reading it incorrectly.

It seems we are done on Hulk and Hawkeye out of the new characters. I see Chris still being blank so I want to know what we are working on for him.

Hsien Ko just needs frame advantage adjustment, I already made a post about it if you fix that it should be fine. 10 recovery removed along with 10 less hit stun on hit.

Dr Strange is a definite no on 7 Rings getting a full combo. I don't know how to fix the Gimlet issue.

Frank West I am fine with the overall changes that are listed. I don't think he is a problem but it all depends on how the TACs are handled. Better to leave the character alone as much as possible because he really is fine as is.

Haggar definite no on projectile negation on Pipe.

Ghost Rider I already suggested the new frame data for Hellfire, should work out fine.

Firebrand definitely needs the whole Hellspitfire H to be retooled from what is listed on there, too many changes on it. I mean if he gets relaunches with that, that means he has more meter gain on combos, more damage and that means more opportunity to set up unblockables with meter usage (like Stalking Flare). The character right now is in a delicate state where if you improve his neutral and damage too much he becomes too good because he is still a character with an unblockable.

On Spitfire H, no change on recovery, give it slightly better start up, better posterior hit box so he gets a couple more hits in near the corner and soft knockdown on all but the final hit. Improve the untechable time on the backthrow. Indifferent on the other Spitfires, they are honestly fine as is especially in Luminous body.

Still indifferent on Felicia, I guess I will talk about her again in a tie breaker situation.

Dormammu is fine.

 

[Professor Beef]

Anyone on PSN wanna play for about 30 or so minutes?

 

[Karsticles]

Give me your votes on the new character versions present in the patch lists, gentlemen! That includes you, Dahbomb - the below stuff is not a vote.

Oh, and I respect the concerns about Chaos Tide becoming too good at 2 bars. I'm curious what else could be done to make it worth using, though. I don't think it will become an issue because it's never used at 3 bars, and it's unlikely that reducing a hyper from 3 to 2 bars will take it from a joke to broken.

I think he probably means to use the ground bounce in a juggle situation, which is fair I guess most ground bounces hit aerial opponents and still ground bounce them. Unless I am reading it incorrectly.

K.

It seems we are done on Hulk and Hawkeye out of the new characters. I see Chris still being blank so I want to know what we are working on for him.

We're not working on anything - I'm waiting for votes after I removed the prone shot and overhead changes.

Hsien Ko just needs frame advantage adjustment, I already made a post about it if you fix that it should be fine. 10 recovery removed along with 10 less hit stun on hit.

It's in there:

+Henkyo Ki recovery reduced to 20 for the L version, 22 for the M version, and 26 for the H version; L version now +4 on block; M version now +0 on block; H version now -4 on block; active frames increased by 50% (all levels).

I'm just waiting on votes.

Dr Strange is a definite no on 7 Rings getting a full combo. I don't know how to fix the Gimlet issue.

You should try checking the current patch list...like I said, I updated it based on feedback already. I'm waiting on you guys to vote.

Frank West I am fine with the overall changes that are listed. I don't think he is a problem but it all depends on how the TACs are handled. Better to leave the character alone as much as possible because he really is fine as is.

I want to hear Zissou's ideas, because Frank West does worry me.

Haggar definite no on projectile negation on Pipe.

Check the list.

Ghost Rider I already suggested the new frame data for Hellfire, should work out fine.

Check the list.

Firebrand definitely needs the whole Hellspitfire H to be retooled from what is listed on there, too many changes on it. I mean if he gets relaunches with that, that means he has more meter gain on combos, more damage and that means more opportunity to set up unblockables with meter usage (like Stalking Flare). The character right now is in a delicate state where if you improve his neutral and damage too much he becomes too good because he is still a character with an unblockable.

Firebrand can already relaunch with Hell Spitfire H in the present version.

On Spitfire H, no change on recovery, give it slightly better start up, better posterior hit box so he gets a couple more hits in near the corner and soft knockdown on all but the final hit. Improve the untechable time on the backthrow. Indifferent on the other Spitfires, they are honestly fine as is especially in Luminous body.

We are at 10 changes for Firebrand, so I can't add something about the back throw without messing removing something. I would rather just give Hell Spitfire H better startup to fix it.

My Marvel guide's frame data for Hell Spitfire H:
26 startup, 20 recovery, lasts 62 frames

My proposed change:
+Hell Spitfire H startup reduced to 16; aerial version no longer leaves Firebrand prone until landing; travel speed and back-side horizontal hitbox increased slightly.

The increased travel speed should fix the Frank West situation. Startup reduction helps combo off of aerial throws. Horizontal hitbox increase helps corner throws and doesn't affect the neutral.

Still indifferent on Felicia, I guess I will talk about her again in a tie breaker situation.

K.

Dormammu is fine.

K.

 

[Dahbomb]

16 frame start up is too fast. It should be no less than 20 frame. A 10 frame start up reduction is not a "slight" reduction at all.

I guess I need to vote on the new stuff, give me a minute.

Yes on the following (for the updated changes):

Chris, Felicia, Hulk, Dr Strange, Hawkeye, Hsien Ko, Dormammu, Haggar, Frank West

No on the following:

Firebrand: No on Spitfire H, 16 frame start up is too low
Ghost Rider: No on invincibility on Maelstrom. Its now a safe hyper with a lot of push back and the Bike hyper is the one that he would want to use to interrupt stuff.

 

[Karsticles]

16 frame start up is too fast. It should be no less than 20 frame. A 10 frame start up reduction is not a "slight" reduction at all.

I guess I need to vote on the new stuff, give me a minute.

He won't be able to convert off of back throws at a 6 frame reduction - it's pointless. He needs more time to position. Please feel free to figure out an alternative that fixes the problem - I'm open to it. Remember that he already has all 10 spots used.

16 frame start up is too fast. It should be no less than 20 frame. A 10 frame start up reduction is not a "slight" reduction at all.

I guess I need to vote on the new stuff, give me a minute.

Yes on the following (for the updated changes):

Chris, Felicia, Hulk, Dr Strange, Hawkeye, Hsien Ko, Dormammu, Haggar, Frank West

No on the following:

Firebrand: No on Spitfire H, 16 frame start up is too low
Ghost Rider: No on invincibility on Maelstrom. Its now a safe hyper with a lot of push back and the Bike hyper is the one that he would want to use to interrupt stuff.

The Ghost Rider invincibility was your suggestion. I agree regardless; I'll implement the change.

 

[Dahbomb]

He won't be able to convert off of back throws at a 6 frame reduction - it's pointless. He needs more time to position. Please feel free to figure out an alternative that fixes the problem - I'm open to it. Remember that he already has all 10 spots used.

Then how do you know the problem will be fixed with a 10 frame reduction? Going to look at some of the other changes for FB.

For Ghost Rider I don't remember suggesting invincibility. I suggested it be useful as a get off me move like Shockwave and allow him to clear some space to reset the neutral.

 

[Karsticles]

Then how do you know the problem will be fixed with a 10 frame reduction? Going to look at some of the other changes for FB.

Because I play Firebrand. ;-)

Really, I don't know. I think he might need it to be lower, and I don't see why everyone is so scared of Hell Spitfire H. Have you seen that move in the neutral? It's ass.

 

[Dahbomb]

Well its ass right now but with all those new changes it becomes more spam friendly. I am also always wary of potential infinites on moves that are already used for combos or starters. If not infinites then loops are always possible. Without playtesting its always better to be safe.

One change I don't fully understand is air QCB+S raising him higher. I don't understand this change, is this like a replacement for an up air dash? I think this might mess up some set ups like Apologyman going in with Firebrand and then fly canceling on top of them for a quick overhead. I would honestly think about replacing this change with more untechable time after back throw.

Also I would also recommend making Hell Claw fly cancelable on command not automatically. Jusf make it like the LB change where you can press S to cancel it if you feel like it.

 

[Karsticles]

Well its ass right now but with all those new changes it becomes more spam friendly. I am also always wary of potential infinites on moves that are already used for combos or starters. If not infinites then loops are always possible. Without playtesting its always better to be safe.

This isn't Fire Bottle. It has almost no neutral presence. It doesn't matter if it becomes spam friendly because it's never going to be useful as a spammy move. There's no potential for infinites because I removed the soft knockdown. Hell Spitfire H doesn't even juggle into itself at high HSD.

One change I don't fully understand is air QCB+S raising him higher. I don't understand this change, is this like a replacement for an up air dash? I think this might mess up some set ups like Apologyman going in with Firebrand and then fly canceling on top of them for a quick overhead. I would honestly think about replacing this change with more untechable time after back throw.

It's weird that a character with wings can't fly higher than he is presently.
His flight is pure garbage; there is no such thing as a "quick overhead" after a fly cancel. His flight has a 30 frame startup.

Also I would also recommend making Hell Claw fly cancelable on command not automatically. Jusf make it like the LB change where you can press S to cancel it if you feel like it.

That's a lot of coding there, and while I am not a fan of Hell Claw right now, it gives him something interesting and unique. With the changes we made, I think it's fine as-is. Holding S while doing a dive kick is awkward, and there wouldn't be a point to the fly-canceled version at all except for combos.

 

[Dahbomb]

It's weird that a character with wings can't fly higher than he is presently.

That's not a good reason as to why he needs it lol.

If you really think he needs a way to get more altitude then make it so that his Hell Charge (Demon Missile) H does a straight up Charge instead of that unblockable swoop.

 

[Karsticles]

That's not a good reason as to why he needs it lol.

If you really think he needs a way to get more altitude then make it so that his Hell Charge (Demon Missile) H does a straight up Charge instead of that unblockable swoop.

Wat.

Maybe you need some sleep man, that's a terrible suggestion. That move has so many uses outside of the unblockable.

I think a serious drawback to Firebrand that other pixie characters do not suffer is his lack of directional mobility. Every other pixie character can go up higher, and they can fake people out. Once Firebrand goes into the air, all of his command dashes move him closer to the ground. This severely limits him to a more linear style of play that is not fitting for his health bracket. He is already, astonishingly, the most limited aerial character in the game due to Flight adding absolutely nothing to his game.

 

[Dahbomb]

No I am saying the unblockable stays as is on the ground but in the air its a different move. I mean you did recommend that he gets the Demon Missile moves in the air.

Also you can't compare Firebrand's mobility to other pixie characters because they are all different. Which pixie character has an unblockable?

 

[Karsticles]

No I am saying the unblockable stays as is on the ground but in the air its a different move. I mean you did recommend that he gets the Demon Missile moves in the air.

Also you can't compare Firebrand's mobility to other pixie characters because they are all different. Which pixie character has an unblockable?

I think Demon Charge H as an aerial move has interesting possibilities for mix-ups. If you don't want qcb.S to raise him up, then we need to talk about making his Flight useful. Though it's difficult because you clearly don't have a strong understanding of Firebrand from the long back-and-forth we've had about his changes.

Is an unblockable directly relevant to movement options? Because Doom and Wolverine's foot dives are directly configured for their relative styles of play. Firebrand has really weak high/low options for a pixie, even with the j.L buff we gave him. He gets unblockables instead. /shrug

And hell, I've been with Q on removing the unblockable, but no one else seemed to want to put in the work to make him worth playing without it.

I really think you just need to take a break; your head is not on straight tonight.

 

[Dahbomb]

Is an unblockable directly relevant to movement options? Because Doom and Wolverine's foot dives are directly configured for their relative styles of play

It is because you said that Wolverine had a ground dash and Doom doesn't plus they were different characters in terms of archetype (more reason for Doom to not even have a Foot Dive to begin with because he can cover below him with air dash down j.M). So you were not comparing Dive Kicks, you were comparing characters and used it as an excuse to dismiss the argument. And thus I am dismissing this argument because Firebrand is a different character than most and a lot of it is because he has an unblockable and other characters don't.

Firebrand has a couple of aerial command dashes, air OK hypers, a dive kick, a horizontal dive kick (Bon Voyage), a slide on the ground, a good ground dash, 4 frame chainable jab, fireballs that can be aimed in different directions, an instant overhead and has an unblockable. Which characters have all of that? No one. So you saying that he NEEDS the up air mobility because other pixie characters have it is unjust because the comparison is unjust.

I think Demon Charge H as an aerial move has interesting possibilities for mix-ups

So you want MORE ways for him to mix you up? LOL!

You are now asking for too much now and this is definitely in the category of "want" more than "need". Does he NEED to do Demon Charge H in the air?

And hell, I've been with Q on removing the unblockable, but no one else seemed to want to put in the work to make him worth playing without it.

LOL are you kidding me? I have wanted the unblockable removed from day 1. Hell if all hard unblockables were removed from the game we would all be better off.

 

[Karsticles]

It is because you said that Wolverine had a ground dash and Doom doesn't plus they were different characters in terms of archetype (more reason for Doom to not even have a Foot Dive to begin with because he can cover below him with air dash down j.M). So you were not comparing Dive Kicks, you were comparing characters and used it as an excuse to dismiss the argument. And thus I am dismissing this argument because Firebrand is a different character than most and a lot of it is because he has an unblockable and other characters don't.

Firebrand is the same type of character as Magneto, Storm, etc. Doom is not the same type of character as Wolverine. I don't know how this can be more clear. One feature does not make two characters uncomparable, or else nothing would be comparable. However, sharing almost nothing in common makes two characters very difficult to compare, and it's doubtful that such comparisons have meaning.

Firebrand has a couple of aerial command dashes, air OK hypers, a dive kick, a horizontal dive kick (Bon Voyage), a slide on the ground, a good ground dash, 4 frame chainable jab, fireballs that can be aimed in different directions and has an unblockable. Which characters have all of that? No one. So you saying that he NEEDS the up air mobility because other pixie characters have it is unjust because the comparison is unjust.

Motherfucking woosh. I'm done for the night - I'll talk to you when you start reading what I type so we can have a conversation. I hate talking to empty space.

So you want MORE ways for him to mix you up? LOL!

You are now asking for too much now and this is definitely in the category of "want" more than "need". Does he NEED to do Demon Charge H in the air?

Um, we all talked about Firebrand together, and everyone agreed on these changes before...you are a wacko tonight, treating this as though it's my change log I'm forcing on everyone. We had unanimous consent on Firebrand as a draft, and the simple, undeniable fact was that he received less conversation than the rest of the characters you chose for that block because no one really cared what happened to him. Now you're all up in arms about 3-4 of his changes like you've never seen them before and didn't approve them yourself.

Consistently you post and bitch about how we aren't moving fast enough, and then you come in and say "Woah when did that change happen?", because you're more concerned with us "moving along" than actually reading the changes and thinking about them.

LOL are you kidding me? I have wanted the unblockable removed from day 1. Hell if all hard unblockables were removed from the game we would all be better off.

This is the last thing you said about Q's suggestion to remove the unblockable:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=74032763&postcount=864

Never once did you suggest removing it in patch discussion. Never. You can't maintain that you wanted the unblockable removed without ever actually suggesting the goddamn change.

 

[Dahbomb]

Firebrand is the same type of character as Magneto, Storm, etc. Doom is not the same type of character as Wolverine. I don't know how this can be more clear. One feature does not make two characters uncomparable, or else nothing would be comparable. However, sharing almost nothing in common makes two characters very difficult to compare, and it's doubtful that such comparisons have meaning.

What does Firebrand have in common with Magneto and Storm outside of a fly cancel? He doesn't even have a traditional 8 way air dash which DEFINES Magneto and Storm. Neither Magneto nor Storm have dive kicks. They don't have an install hyper. They don't have unblockables. They don't have 4 frame jabs. So you comparing Firebrand to these characters is pointless to me because I don't see them as the same type of characters. "Oh but they have low health and can fly" ... yeah OK buddy.

Motherfucking woosh. I'm done for the night - I'll talk to you when you start reading what I type so we can have a conversation. I hate talking to empty space.

So you agree that this whole talk of "can't compare moves because characters are different" is dumb?

 

[Zissou]

Damn, you guys got into it

 

[Karsticles]

Damn, you guys got into it

Since it probably got missed in the rubble, I made a link showing our patch talk progress:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah4zxqcb0_eodHVySXhJc1pUVXhJM1JmcGxmWEdldlE#gid=0

 

[Dahbomb]

Damn so much name calling and personal attacks yesterday. I just read the edited posts right now.

The reason why there wasn't big discussion on FB the first time around because we were still jotting down changes. I took it in good faith that since its your character you were making good changes on him. Now that its time for more finalized changes there is going to be more scrutiny. Something I missed might be picked by someone else, that's part of life I am only human. That's why we have more than 1 committee member. I am not just reading the FB changes, I am trying to weed out "wants" from "needs" which is why I brought up the QCB+S change because I thought that improved back throw time should have a slot (and since you had 10 buffs I had to figure out which of the 10 buffs he needed the least).

Back on topic, last thing we were discussing was the QCB+S change, the Hell Spitfire H change, the air OK Demon Missiles and now the unblockable. I don't remember the context of that post you pulled of mine but I will state for the record now that I have always been open to unblockable removal or nerf. I was the forefront in recommending nerf to FA unblockable and Taskmaster unlockable, why would I be against a FB unblockable nerf? So you can suggest a nerfed unblockable FB changelist and we can discuss on it.

 

[Karsticles]

Damn so much name calling and personal attacks yesterday. I just read the edited posts right now.

The reason why there wasn't big discussion on FB the first time around because we were still jotting down changes. I took it in good faith that since its your character you were making good changes on him. Now that its time for more finalized changes there is going to be more scrutiny. Something I missed might be picked by someone else, that's part of life I am only human. That's why we have more than 1 committee member. I am not just reading the FB changes, I am trying to weed out "wants" from "needs" which is why I brought up the QCB+S change because I thought that improved back throw time should have a slot (and since you had 10 buffs I had to figure out which of the 10 buffs he needed the least).

Back on topic, last thing we were discussing was the QCB+S change, the Hell Spitfire H change, the air OK Demon Missiles and now the unblockable. I don't remember the context of that post you pulled of mine but I will state for the record now that I have always been open to unblockable removal or nerf. I was the forefront in recommending nerf to FA unblockable and Taskmaster unlockable, why would I be against a FB unblockable nerf? So you can suggest a nerfed unblockable FB changelist and we can discuss on it.

I think Q suggested a good alternative: command-dash-cancelable fireballs. Basically, Firebrand has a very simple game. He can pretty much only go into the air and use a downward swooping attack at the opponent, or dash forward into c.L. He has a purposely limited mix-up game with low damage with the balance being unblockable setups. Thus, if we remove unblockables, we need to give him better mix-up options, better mobility, better approach options, and better damage. That seems like a lot, but that's basically what an unblockable is worth in this game (at least, looking at Capcom's design perspectives).

Some of these changes have already been made. We let j.L link into Bon Voyage. We are making his Demon Charge moves air OK so he can perform a new kind of mix-up. We gave him better wall cling moves, which are sort of like Magnetic Blast in their utility now. So really, he would need a damage buff at this point and something to give him a fiercer neutral game, such as Q's suggestion. This is because he is not like Magneto and Storm, who can tridash attack over and over for pressure. Firebrand gets one pressure attempt, and then he gets pushed out. Even the qcb.S change will not alter this.

 

[Dahbomb]

That's still ends up more than 10 changes on the character with the unblockable nerf. That's the main problem.

I think we should submit two Firebrand changelogs... one with the unblockable and one without. Or we can use a nerfed unblockable where its the same against a grounded opponent but causes a minimum hit stun strike in mid air that you can only combo off of with XF ala Viper.

IMO the only real way to make FB's mobility better is to somehow give him real air dashes and a better fly cancel. That way he would actually be comparable to the fliers.

 

[Karsticles]

That's still ends up more than 10 changes on the character with the unblockable nerf. That's the main problem.

I think we should submit two Firebrand changelogs... one with the unblockable and one without. Or we can use a nerfed unblockable where its the same against a grounded opponent but causes a minimum hit stun strike in mid air that you can only combo off of with XF ala Viper.

IMO the only real way to make FB's mobility better is to somehow give him real air dashes and a better fly cancel. That way he would actually be comparable to the fliers.

Real air dashes have pros and cons. On one hand, it means that Firebrand isn't using up his 3 special limitation once he goes into the air, which is very nice. On the other hand, right now Firebrand's actual vulnerable period during an air dash is rather small, so he can traverse the air with some degree of safety that other air dash characters can't.

The nerfed unblockable against a grounded opponent isn't a fix because most of Firebrand's setups either hit on the ground or hit the aerial opponent in such a way that the swoop is not the last thing that hits them. If we changed that, it wouldn't even make a difference to my team.

I am either for leaving him roughly as we have him now on the sheet, or removing the unblockable and adding in dash-cancelable fireballs. The changelog would look like this (please read carefully):

Firebrand:
+Wall cling fireballs no longer leave Firebrand prone until landing.
+Hell Spitfire H startup reduced to 16; aerial version no longer leaves Firebrand prone until landing; travel speed and back-side horizontal hitbox increased slightly.
+Luminous Body (air) no longer automatically puts Firebrand in Flight mode unless you hold S during the cinematic screen.
+Chaos Tide is now a level 2; all inputs now cause the helper to perform his H attack.
+Dark Fire hitstun increased significantly.
+qcb.S (air) now causes Firebrand to rise into the air further like Hell’s Elevator L; no higher than maximum superjump height.
+j.L hitstun increased slightly; can now link into Bon Voyage without Luminous Body.
+Devil’s Claw startup reduced to 10 frames.
+Demon Charge (all versions) now air OK; Demon Charge H can no longer be charged; Demon Charge H hitstun increased significantly.
+Hell Spitfire (all versions) now cancelable into Hell Dive (all versions) and Hell's Elevator (all versions).

Assists: Hell Spitfire L, Hell Spitfire H, Demon Charge M

Also, I do have concerns about Chaos Tide being a level 2, but I don't know what to change about it. I would really appreciate suggestions on that end. Particularly, Dark Harmonizer allows Firebrand to build 1.2 bars during Chaos Tide, so we could have another 1-player scenario if Firebrand comes in with a lot of meter and Morrigan backing him.

 

[Ghazi]

I didn't know that Jill's j. M is an instant overhead until just now, that's helpful!

 

[Dahbomb]

If we are going to consider giving him that new tool then you can't have H Spitfire be less than 20 frames start up. He can then just throw it below him, dash cancel into another fireball. 6 less start up frames and better traveling speed should be enough to allow him to combo from throws... if that's still not enough then the problem is definitely on that one back throw and you need a slot for that.

You should probably label the Demon Missile/Charge changes as "+/-" because there's a big nerf in there because there is no unlockable anymore.

Also what about H Spitfire dash cancel into another H Spitfire? Will that leave 2 fireballs on the ground?

 

[Karsticles]

If we are going to consider giving him that new tool then you can't have H Spitfire be less than 20 frames start up. He can then just throw it below him, dash cancel into another fireball. 6 less start up frames and better traveling speed should be enough to allow him to combo from throws... if that's still not enough then the problem is definitely on that one back throw and you need a slot for that.

You should probably label the Demon Missile/Charge changes as "+/-" because there's a big nerf in there because there is no unlockable anymore.

Also what about H Spitfire dash cancel into another H Spitfire? Will that leave 2 fireballs on the ground?

We can make it so that Hell Spitfire H only allows one on the screen at a time again - no bigs.

I'll adjust the +/- if we get everyone agreeing on this change.

Magnetic Blast L is a 14 frame startup - do you think the 20 frame startup on Hell Spitfire H is inherently problematic? The traveling speed is entirely about Frank West situations where it drops - it won't affect his general combo extensions.

Firebrand:
+Wall cling fireballs no longer leave Firebrand prone until landing.
+Hell Spitfire H startup reduced to 20; aerial version no longer leaves Firebrand prone until landing; only one allowed on the screen at a time - the fire will disappear as soon as Firebrand enters startup frames for a second Hell Spitfire H.
+Luminous Body (air) no longer automatically puts Firebrand in Flight mode unless you hold S during the cinematic screen.
+Chaos Tide is now a level 2; all inputs now cause the helper to perform his H attack.
+Firebrand now recovers significantly faster from all throw animations.
+qcb.S (air) now causes Firebrand to rise into the air further like Hell’s Elevator L; no higher than maximum superjump height.
+j.L hitstun increased slightly; can now link into Bon Voyage without Luminous Body.
+Devil’s Claw startup reduced to 10 frames.
+/- Demon Charge (all versions) now air OK; Demon Charge H can no longer be charged; Demon Charge H hitstun increased significantly.
+Hell Spitfire (all versions) now cancelable into Hell Dive (all versions) and Hell's Elevator (all versions).

Assists: Hell Spitfire L, Hell Spitfire H, Demon Charge M

 

[Dahbomb]

No I don't think 20 frame start up is the problem, I think 16 frame start up is the problem. The changelog looks fine now, going to think over it a bit then give some thoughts.

Hell Spitfire H is also +/- now although the - is really just a counter change to another buff.

On Chaos Tide, the other two committee members are right you might be able to loop it (it can build almost 2 bars in the corner). The easy solution is to just make it so that the Helper's attacks don't build meter. The damage isn't a problem on the hyper but if it was two meter it would venture into loopable territory.

 

[Karsticles]

No I don't think 20 frame start up is the problem, I think 16 frame start up is the problem. The changelog looks fine now, going to think over it a bit then give some thoughts.

Hell Spitfire H is also +/- now although the - is really just a counter change to another buff.

Nah, it's definitely +. No Firebrand player cares about only being able to throw more than one Hell Spitfire H at a time. The move is ass.

Actually, since Firebrand now recovers faster from all throws, some of the Hell Spitfire H changes are no longer needed - I went up and adjusted them accordingly.

 

[Dahbomb]

Well they don't care now but if you can do super jump Spitfire dash cancel into Spitfire that's two spots on the ground you can put the fireball on. Anyway that's now a moot point with the new change.

I suggested Chaos Tide change which would make it more appropriate for a LVL2.

 

[Karsticles]

Good suggestion on the helper. That will keep it from being loopable. Here are our two Firebrand versions, then (let me know if I made a mistake):

Firebrand:
+Wall cling fireballs no longer leave Firebrand prone until landing.
+Hell Spitfire H startup reduced to 16; aerial version no longer leaves Firebrand prone until landing; only one allowed on the screen at a time – the fire will disappear as soon as Firebrand enters startup frames for a second Hell Spitfire H.
+Luminous Body (air) no longer automatically puts Firebrand in Flight mode unless you hold S during the cinematic screen.
+Chaos Tide is now a level 2; all inputs now cause the helper to perform his H attack; the summoned helper no longer builds meter.
+Firebrand now recovers significantly faster from all throw animations.
+qcb.S (air) now causes Firebrand to rise into the air further like Hell’s Elevator L; no higher than maximum superjump height.
+j.L hitstun increased slightly; can now link into Bon Voyage without Luminous Body.
+Devil’s Claw startup reduced to 10 frames.
+Demon Charge (all versions) now air OK.
+Hell Spitfire L and M recovery reduced to 20 frames.

Assists: Hell Spitfire L, Hell Spitfire H, Demon Charge M

OR

Firebrand:
+Wall cling fireballs no longer leave Firebrand prone until landing.
+Hell Spitfire H startup reduced to 20; aerial version no longer leaves Firebrand prone until landing; only one allowed on the screen at a time - the fire will disappear as soon as Firebrand enters startup frames for a second Hell Spitfire H.
+Luminous Body (air) no longer automatically puts Firebrand in Flight mode unless you hold S during the cinematic screen.
+Chaos Tide is now a level 2; all inputs now cause the helper to perform his H attack; the summoned helper no longer builds meter.
+Firebrand now recovers significantly faster from all throw animations.
+qcb.S (air) now causes Firebrand to rise into the air further like Hell’s Elevator L; no higher than maximum superjump height.
+j.L hitstun increased slightly; can now link into Bon Voyage without Luminous Body.
+Devil’s Claw startup reduced to 10 frames.
+/- Demon Charge (all versions) now air OK; Demon Charge H can no longer be charged; Demon Charge H hitstun increased significantly.
+Hell Spitfire (all versions) now cancelable into Hell Dive (all versions) and Hell's Elevator (all versions).

Assists: Hell Spitfire L, Hell Spitfire H, Demon Charge M

 

[Giard]

Stupid question.

Is this all just for fun, or will this be in an eventual patch?

 

[Deleted member 13876]

Stupid question.

Is this all just for fun, or will this be in an eventual patch?

It's for agony, when none of this comes to pass.

 

[Dahbomb]

Stupid question.

Is this all just for fun, or will this be in an eventual patch?

Capcom says that they want the community to talk about a balance patch.

So we are doing just that.

+/- on Chaos Tide as well.

Wasn't it supposed to be 20 frame start up on both H Spitfire? Also are we voting for one version of FB or approving of both?