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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT4| Nothing Stops This Patch!

K

Karsticles

Member
Troubled Bat said:
Goddamn. I wish I could play you guys! I miss playing UMvC3.
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Buy it then!

The Mango Sentinel said:
Second is the one position I don't think Hawkeye should be at. Point or anchor in my opinion.
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I think Hawkeye can be good second. He is kind of like Dormammu and appreciates having the momentum established for him, because he can keep it well but can't create it. Anchor is alright, but if you have a team like Wesker/Vergil/Hawkeye, I think Wesker/Hawkeye/Vergil is better so you can DHC Vergil in safely.
 
S

smurfx

get some go again
DJ Ghazi said:
Is point Hawkeye any good?
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its really fun but i definitely need lariat assist in a lot of matches. if its against somebody like wolverine i just put task on point.

The Mango Sentinel said:
Heh...I told you man. As soon as I saw your team, I knew I was absolutely fucked.

I'm actually working on a team now, just to counter yours. I have never done this before....solely created a team just to fight one person. I mean I've made anti ChrisG teams, but I've never worried too much about it since I am probably not fighting ChrisG anytime soon, and the MorriDoom teams that I have fought are nowhere near his level.

I am hardcore debating learning Shuma just because of you.
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alright bring it! :D
 
F

Frantic

Member
Karsticles said:
Frantic and Zissou, where are you guys on this stuff?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=80077597&postcount=2001
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=80107461&postcount=2002
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As far as Magnetic Blast is concerned, I'd make it so that it has about 16-18 frames of blockstun, down from the 22 or so frames it is now. Frame advantage for aerial attacks is kind of difficult to determine, as most of the time there's different factors to take into account. You'll have less frame advantage if you connect an aerial as you're jumping then as you're coming down, etc. Sometimes Mag Blast will not be super advantageous, and sometimes it will. At 16-18 frames of blockstun, it'll be more in line with other jumping attacks.

I agree that Jill should probably be around 900k instead of 950k. I don't subscribe to the notion that Wolverine is better than Jill(even now in Ultimate). Easier, yes, but not necessarily better.

For MODOK's unblockable, I honestly don't think it's much of an issue. It's not easy to setup, and there's also no real completely unavoidable setups without using something like Slant Shot as far as I know. Plus, it's technically still blockable and not genuinely unblockable.

FotF should remain the same damage as is. It does 50k base damage and there are less FotF hits than Impact Palms(75k) anyway.


Also, because it came up quite a few pages back, and it's appropriate since we're discussing Jill - Jill can block with downback on the ground while in Mad Beast. She just can't block with back, upback, or while in the air. /themoreyouknow
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
I don't know how much a 5 frame difference is going to matter. That's like a poke on the wrist, not even a slap on the wrist type nerf. Probably need to add recovery to the move because that is the core of the issue. Changing it from +22 to +16 is still his advantage on defense and offense while still being hard as hell to punish on whiff.
 
A

Azn_Boy

Neo Member
Dahbomb said:
I don't know how much a 5 frame difference is going to matter. That's like a poke on the wrist, not even a slap on the wrist type nerf. Probably need to add recovery to the move because that is the core of the issue. Changing it from +22 to +16 is still his advantage on defense and offense while still being hard as hell to punish on whiff.
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It is a problem when I do plink addf mag blast, then Spencer does Bionic Arm, and I can block it.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
I don't see how the hitstun on Magnetic Blast is the problem. +22 or +15 won't matter because it gets pushblocked, which sets blockstun to 23 frames. We're just going to be screwing with his combos.

Now, adding a little more recovery is an interesting option, since it makes the move less safe in general against beam hypers and such. But at the same time, Magneto is not a dominant character right now. He gets a good amount of use, and we're buffing a lot of characters while not heavily nerfing any strong characters outside of Vergil and Zero. I'm still not convinced there's a problem that needs addressing.

As long as Wolverine has 50/50 mix-ups from a half screen away, he is going to be better than Jill. She needs to get in more than he does, and she has weaker tools to do so. 950K is justified unless you want to talk about lowering Wolverine to 900K.

MODOK's unblockable is easy to pull off with a pinning assist like Cold Star. I saw Keits do it over and over again at UFGT9. Or maybe that was RR...I think he plays both and that's why I'm confused, haha.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
He's not talking about hit stun he's talking about block stun. Read it again. Hit stun on Mag Blast is fine, its the recovery which makes it too safe and allows it to be +20 on block.

Magneto not a "dominant" character? Top 5 listed in everyone's tier list and has 3rd highest wins at tourneys with an EVO championship belt. With the series of heavy nerfs inflicted on Vergil, Viper and Zero he would undeniably be the best character in the game.

Jill also has invincible moves, a better slide, a command throw, a wall bounce move she can now use from the air, faster cr.L, a faster ground dash, a plus on block overhead. We can count tools all day long, this new Jill is always going to come out on top. This isn't even counting the lvl1 Mad Beast which aside from uppinv up her damage from combos greatly enhances her reset/mix up game much further than Berserker Charge.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Bionic Arm is fair, balanced and hype.

Haters gonna hate. Step up your defense and blocking, don't spam projectiles or press buttons when you don't need to.

Not even going to CONSIDER Bionic Arm nerf before a Foot Dive hit box nerf (or the dozen other hit box moves we didn't nerf). Frantic's got my back.

That THC Bionic Arm is bull shit though.
 
S

Sigmaah

Member
Professor Beef said:
And hype. Above all else it's so hype omg it feels so good like DmC please all over my face omggggggggggg

/dahbomb
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LMFAO AHAHAHAHAHA I'M FUCKING DYING OVER HERE.

DeadPhoenix9065 said:
Yep. Especially when this happens...
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Oh word? Totally fair and balanced and HYPE.

Dahbomb said:
Bionic Arm is fair, balanced and hype.

Haters gonna hate. Step up your defense and blocking, don't spam projectiles or press buttons when you don't need to.

Not even going to CONSIDER Bionic Arm nerf before a Foot Dive hit box nerf (or the dozen other hit box moves we didn't nerf). Frantic's got my back.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say it's balanced all the way, and it's not hype anymore... idgaf about the hitbox, it's the 1 bar super that leads to BS is what the problem is. We don't need to nerf it, but I don't like it lol.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
If you want to see a stupid use of 1 bar, then look no further than this:

EX_SEISMO.jpg


Yes indeed folks.. that hit box is absolutely extending beyond the top of the screen.

Compare with Bionic Arm:

bionicarm.jpg


Ignore the 2nd bubble, that doesn't appear normally it's just that was during a moving frame that I captured. That one hit box is barely bigger than one of the 3 hit box of EX Seismo on just the ground.

Yes yes I know... Viper doesn't go horizontal but she has WAY more invincible frames and is completely safe on EX Seismo. That is legitimately unfair.

Bionic Arm stays untouched. It being unsafe on block makes it fair and it's not even among the most invincible LVL1 moves in the game.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
We already nerfed UWG, that's a 400K+ reduction in his damage potential. That is actually an indirect nerf to Bionic Arm because the chances of him killing you off of Bionic Arm is much less considering that he would be doing way less damage and he already uses up his bounce when picking up OTG after a Bionic Arm.

I am not sure what is causing the Wolverine to not block the THC Bionic Arm but if that's a prevalent problem it should be addressed.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
MiniBossBattle said:
What is an easy Midscreen bnb for Strange?
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c.LMHS, sj.MMH, f.H, j.MMH, f.H, j.MMH, f.H, s.H, f.H, s.S, sj.MMH, f.H, sj.S, qcf.M, qcf.AA

Dahbomb said:
He's not talking about hit stun he's talking about block stun. Read it again. Hit stun on Mag Blast is fine, its the recovery which makes it too safe and allows it to be +20 on block.

Magneto not a "dominant" character? Top 5 listed in everyone's tier list and has 3rd highest wins at tourneys with an EVO championship belt. With the series of heavy nerfs inflicted on Vergil, Viper and Zero he would undeniably be the best character in the game.

Jill also has invincible moves, a better slide, a command throw, a wall bounce move she can now use from the air, faster cr.L, a faster ground dash, a plus on block overhead. We can count tools all day long, this new Jill is always going to come out on top. This isn't even counting the lvl1 Mad Beast which aside from uppinv up her damage from combos greatly enhances her reset/mix up game much further than Berserker Charge.
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Or the blockstun, whatever. It gets pushblocked regardless.

Dahbomb said:
Bionic Arm is fair, balanced and hype.

Haters gonna hate. Step up your defense and blocking, don't spam projectiles or press buttons when you don't need to.

Not even going to CONSIDER Bionic Arm nerf before a Foot Dive hit box nerf (or the dozen other hit box moves we didn't nerf). Frantic's got my back.

That THC Bionic Arm is bull shit though.
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I'll work on more defense and blocking while air dashing, which is the only two of my characters can move. It's not a death sentence to stay on the ground against Spencer or anything.

And stop being ass and getting hit by Foot Dive FFS.

Dahbomb said:
If you want to see a stupid use of 1 bar, then look no further than this:

EX_SEISMO.jpg


Yes indeed folks.. that hit box is absolutely extending beyond the top of the screen.

Compare with Bionic Arm:

bionicarm.jpg


Ignore the 2nd bubble, that doesn't appear normally it's just that was during a moving frame that I captured. That one hit box is barely bigger than one of the 3 hit box of EX Seismo on just the ground.

Yes yes I know... Viper doesn't go horizontal but she has WAY more invincible frames and is completely safe on EX Seismo. That is legitimately unfair.

Bionic Arm stays untouched. It being unsafe on block makes it fair and it's not even among the most invincible LVL1 moves in the game.
Click to expand...
That first one looks better to you? lol EX Seismo is only comparable because it's safe.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Hey man, I have accepted my fate and decided to get better when it comes to blocking Foot Dives. Time for everyone to start doing the same against Bionic Arm.

Push blocking does not negate Mag Blast, the problem is that the move is too good as a defensive move. You try to get in against Magneto while dodging his projectiles, following his movement and avoiding Missiles but then he makes you block Magnetic Blast. Now why the hell should I have to push block this move when I earned that space to get in? Instead because the move is +22 on block he gets a FREE MIX UP on me if I don't push block. If I DO push block then he establishes neutral control again and I have to start the whole thing. The recovery on that move is so good you can't even trip guard him and it's very hard to whiff punish it.

You are not thinking of the move as a defensive tool for Magneto, you are thinking of when Magneto is pressuring you with Mag Blast and you get him off you with Push Block. Yea sure that works when you are on the defensive but that's not what you want to be doing when you are on the offensive. The move is too good in its safety, from its recovery to its block advantage to its trajectory. Reducing the block stun would MAYBE put the move in trip guard territory but I think additional recovery is needed so that the move can actually be punished in realistic settings. Basically once someone has adjusted to the execution requirement of the move, it's a "no brainer" type move where you just spam it with impunity. I know that sounds like Morrigan using Soul Fist but Magneto is way more mobile than Morrigan both on the ground and in the air plus there are many cases where even if you push block it and he lands at that same time the push block is negated because again... the recovery on that move is absurd.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Dahbomb said:
Hey man, I have accepted my fate and decided to get better when it comes to blocking Foot Dives. Time for everyone to start doing the same against Bionic Arm.
Click to expand...
Just tell me how to block while air dashing and I'll do the same.

Push blocking does not "negate" Mag Blast, the problem is that the move is too good as a defensive move. You try to get in against Magneto while dodging his projectiles, following his movement and avoiding Missiles but then he makes you block Magnetic Blast. Now why the hell should I have to push block this move when I earned that space to get in? Instead because the move is +22 on block he gets a FREE MIX UP on me if I don't push block. If I DO push block then he establishes neutral control again and I have to start the whole thing. The recovery on that move is so good you can't even trip guard him.
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It's just like Soul Fist - you need to earn your way in. Except Magnetic Blast is not as good as Soul Fist.

You are not thinking of the move as a defensive tool for Magneto, you are thinking of when Magneto is pressuring you with Mag Blast and you get him off you with Push Block. Yea sure that works when you are on the defensive but that's not what you want to be doing when you are on the offensive. The move is too good in its safety, from its recovery to its block advantage to its trajectory. Reducing the block stun would MAYBE put the move in trip guard territory but I think additional recovery is needed so that the move can actually be punished in realistic settings.
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It needs to be reduced to like +10 to be punishable after a chicken block. Plus there are serious issues with this fucking up Magneto's combos.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
It only affects Magneto combos if you mess with the recovery or hit stun. We are not messing with the hit stun, the first step is the block stun reduction. Reducing block stun has 0 impact on his combos. I would be fine by making it +10-12 on block as long as it becomes to the point where I can chicken block it and not be at a huge disadvantage.

It's not like Soul Fist because Magneto can plink air dash back into Magnetic Blast then recover on the ground to pressure you. Morrigan can't do that at that speed because she does not have that level of mobility. That move on most other characters would not be as good but that move on Magneto is absurd.

As far as blocking during air dash goes.. it's the same as blocking during a special move. You don't use the move at the space where it can be punished. Basic fighting game fundamentals. Or better yet.... you can pick Spider Man. It's like me asking how should I block a cross up Foot Dive... it's a meaningless question. The answer to both is the exact same... you either improve your game and learn the move's hit box or you change the move. As Foot Dive nerf didn't go through on the basis of "it will make sure people learn how to block" then that is the same basis for Bionic Arm not getting nerfed.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Dahbomb said:
It only affects Magneto combos if you mess with the recovery or hit stun. We are not messing with the hit stun, the first step is the block stun reduction. Reducing block stun has 0 impact on his combos. I would be fine by making it +10-12 on block as long as it becomes to the point where I can chicken block it and not be at a huge disadvantage.

It's not like Soul Fist because Magneto can plink air dash back into Magnetic Blast then recover on the ground to pressure you. Morrigan can't do that at that speed because she does not have that level of mobility. That move on most other characters would not be as good but that move on Magneto is absurd.

As far as blocking during air dash goes.. it's the same as blocking during a special move. You don't use the move at the space where it can be punished. Basic fighting game fundamentals. Or better yet.... you can pick Spider Man. It's like me asking how should I block a cross up Foot Dive... it's a meaningless question. The answer to both is the exact same... you either improve your game and learn the move's hit box or you change the move. As Foot Dive nerf didn't go through on the basis of "it will make sure people learn how to block" then that is the same basis for Bionic Arm not getting nerfed.
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That would be "don't use the move at all", FYI.

I'm not convinced that there's a problem with Magnetic Blast.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Nah you can use the move/air dash when he's doing something else like jumping, super jumping, zip lining (not on you but close to you). If he's just standing there on the ground then obviously that is cue to not be air dashing low to the ground.

I don't know what else I can say to convince you on the matter of Magnetic Blast. I say just put it to the vote. My suggestion is to reduce block stun so that Magnetic Blast is reduced from +22 on block to +10 on block. This is the bare minimum.. increase in recovery is optional.

For reference Smart Bombs are less than +10 on block when used in the air (ranges from +1 to +5). For that move to be on Magnetic Blast level you would need to charge them up to get to the point where they have the block stun of a standard Magnetic Blast (under new patch changes, in the current game they are 100000x worse than Magnetic Blasts). I know comparing characters and moves is something that has become taboo in these discussions but Iron Man and Magneto are the two most comparable characters in the game.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
XxSlasherMcGirkxX said:
Air dashing is already powerful, you gotta commit to it.
Click to expand...
Zip line >>>>> air dashing.

Dahbomb said:
Nah you can use the move/air dash when he's doing something else like jumping, super jumping, zip lining (not on you but close to you). If he's just standing there on the ground then obviously that is cue to not be air dashing low to the ground.

I don't know what else I can say to convince you on the matter of Magnetic Blast. I say just put it to the vote. My suggestion is to reduce block stun so that Magnetic Blast is reduced from +22 on block to +10 on block. This is the bare minimum.. increase in recovery is optional.

For reference Smart Bombs are less than +10 on block when used in the air (ranges from +1 to +5). For that move to be on Magnetic Blast level you would need to charge them up to get to the point where they have the block stun of a standard Magnetic Blast (under new patch changes, in the current game they are 100000x worse than Magnetic Blasts). I know comparing characters and moves is something that has become taboo in these discussions but Iron Man and Magneto are the two most comparable characters in the game.
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Man, you have never played the matchups I am talking about. It is just way too obvious.

Smart Bombs is a piece of shit move. I dont mind that comparison, but I don't find it helpful as a gauge for changing Magnetic Blast. Making Magnetic Blast +10 on block puts it below most aerial normals. Plus, I dont know if we can make a move have significantly more hitstun than blockstun. Usually the values are somewhere near each other.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
And you haven't played the match ups I AM talking about!

Plus, I dont know if we can make a move have significantly more hitstun than blockstun.
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Nah there are plenty of moves with more than 10 frame difference between the frame advantage and hit advantage.

Examples:

Thunder Bolt: -1 on block, +13 on hit
Charging Star L: -17 on block, +13 on hit

Probably a lot more if I searched more but this is not even close to being unusual. In fact Magneto himself has air EMD at +10 on hit and -14 on block. Disruptors are generally pretty fair, they are fast but they are negative on block meaning if you block them you at least get to move in more. It all boils down to risk vs reward in all these discussions we have... there is very little risk to using Magnetic Blast and the reward is always huge (on block +22 Magneto gets a free mix up on the ground, safe against chicken block/trip guard, they push block you gain upper hand in neutral, difficult to whiff punish and on hit leads into a full combo).
 
K

Karsticles

Member
onionfrog said:
Dat spencer salt!
I think bionic arm is fine as is, there are way more important balance concerns in the game. Most of which have been covered well by the theoretical changelist
Click to expand...
I just hate mindless play that dumbs down the whole game in general. Spencer, Nova, and Vergil are probably the top culprits.

Dahbomb said:
And you haven't played the match ups I AM talking about!
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What? I have a pocket Spencer.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Oh sorry I thought you were talking Magneto match ups ie. offensive characters against Magneto having to deal with Mag Blasts.

You can't do much about those mindless characters like Vergil, Spencer, Wolverine, Nova etc. even the big bodies. It's just their design. There is hardly any way to change Spencer to make him a thoughtful character without either reworking him or making him shit. At least he wouldn't get broken damage off of stray Bionic Arm.

No lawnmower assist in the patch.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Dahbomb said:
Oh sorry I thought you were talking Magneto match ups ie. offensive characters against Magneto having to deal with Mag Blasts.

You can't do much about those mindless characters like Vergil, Spencer, Wolverine, Nova etc. even the big bodies. It's just their design. There is hardly any way to change Spencer to make him a thoughtful character without either reworking him or making him shit. At least he wouldn't get broken damage off of stray Bionic Arm.

No lawnmower assist in the patch.
Click to expand...
My Magneto experience is pretty limited both as a player and as an opposing force. I am speaking primarily from a tournament result perspective. As it is, he kind of relies on Magnetic Blast to win a lot of matchups, and I'm concerned about what a nerf there could do to him.

Also re: your frame data examples, Charging Star causes a knockdown; I am talking about moves that just cause hitstun. What is Thunder Bolt?
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Dante's DT move that shoots lightening.

Magneto wins match ups with the Mag Blast because of its speed, trajectory and safety. It creates a persistent hit box on the screen that makes Wolverine life difficult in terms of approaching. A reduction on block stun would have no bearing on that aspect of the match up..... not unless you change recovery on the move which like I said is optional.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Dahbomb said:
Dante's DT move that shoots lightening.

Magneto wins match ups with the Mag Blast because of its speed, trajectory and safety. It creates a persistent hit box on the screen that makes Wolverine life difficult in terms of approaching. A reduction on block stun would have no bearing on that aspect of the match up..... not unless you change recovery on the move which like I said is optional.
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Definitely no recovery change, as that would mess with his combos. We don't want to mess with that. Wolverine vs. Magneto seems to be in Wolverine's favor in tournaments.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Are we really going to bring tournaments into this? :/

Magneto has more tourneys won than Wolverine, an EVO championship and more top 8 appearances.

Now I am not saying Magneto wins the match up especially not at the start of round. I just used Wolverine as an example because that is something familiar to me. Lesser characters who are like Wolverine struggle way more getting around Mag Blasts and even when they get within point blank range of Magneto they have to eat Mag Blasts in the face, setting up an easy counter offense by Magneto.

No matter how it's diced, Magneto is a top 5 character whether you want to talk about tournament results, popularity, tier lists, on paper potential etc. There are a lot of reasons why he is an all around dominant character but the one thing that makes him supremely ahead of your average character is because of those Mag Blasts. Characters can deal with his mobility, his normals and his EMD but they have a very hard time dealing with Mag Blasts. Just like Capcom lowered the block stun on EMD going from Vanilla to Ultimate for being a dominant move, it stands to reason that Mag Blast get a similar treatment.

I think we have discussed this enough. Just put it to the vote unless there are more points that can be brought up. I say reduce hit advantage to no more than +10 on block and wrap up Magneto. Then we can move on to Jill's health or something.
 
S

Sigmaah

Member
Vice said:
I joined the dark side. Zero May Stride coming soon. Any Zero guides or tips?
Click to expand...

Dante or Vergil?

If you play Xbox, I can show you some stuff with Zero/Vergil/Strider cause I played that team for a while. I'm better at showing rather then telling lol.
 
JeTmAn81

JeTmAn81

Member
Is Nova a really bad matchup for Magneto/Doom (missiles)? This guy just sat on the other side of the screen with Gravimetric Pulses up (Disruptor won't go through), chucking Energy Javelins and calling Eye of Agamotto and there was almost nothing I could do. He wasn't even beaming me when I did call Doom either, which would've murdered the assist.
 
V

Vice

Member
JeTmAn81 said:
Is Nova a really bad matchup for Magneto/Doom (missiles)? This guy just sat on the other side of the screen with Gravimetric Pulses up (Disruptor won't go through), chucking Energy Javelins and calling Eye of Agamotto and there was almost nothing I could do. He wasn't even beaming me when I did call Doom either, which would've murdered the assist.
Click to expand...

Nova does very well against Magneto/Doom. Pulse, javelin and high speed tackle destroy the duo.
 
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