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[Dahbomb]

Where they already hit. L version close, M version mid space, H version anywhere because it's tracking but realistically in zoning you want to use it when they are full screen.

Spider Man needs the Web Throw nerf.

By the way... if we are doing God's Beard RR Oil Bomb mechanic where it can be light by any character then that definitely can't hit low anymore.

On Ryu, you probably want to replace upward aimable Shinku Hadouken with j.L instant overhead from fuzzy guards always links into Tatsumaki L version.

On She Hulk, "increased speed" should be replaced by "Falling and jump speed returned to Vanilla status".

 

[Killa Sasa]

Look at THIS and pause at 0:07. Are you telling me that hitbox can not lead to the most ambiguous bullshit ever? Or am I reading something wrong? Just standing there and hitting s.S is one of Vergil's easiest incoming mixups and it catches tons of people. Pretty sure Justin Wong actually got hit by it in his sets with Flocker at EVO.

ALL SKILL: The Launcher.

Shiiiieeet.

 

[Clockw0rk]

I'm assuming this is in the corner, is there any reason why there's no round trip in your notation? Ideally if you have time it should be , Cut > Helm Break xx Round Trip > Cut > cr.H xx Stinger. If for some reason you're far away some people dash up and Helm Break xx Cut > Round Trip > Cut > cr.H xx Stinger.

woah totally forgot about this post. thanks for the reply, will incorporate it into my game!

edit: after trying it out a bit, the cr.H seems to be difficult to get consistently (read: at all). The reason I was partial to the combos ending in cut to cr.H without the round trip is because the cr.H would hit consistently (since swords are still going towards the end). Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

 

[Karsticles]

Where they already hit. L version close, M version mid space, H version anywhere because it's tracking but realistically in zoning you want to use it when they are full screen.

Spider Man needs the Web Throw nerf.

By the way... if we are doing God's Beard RR Oil Bomb mechanic where it can be light by any character then that definitely can't hit low anymore.

On Ryu, you probably want to replace upward aimable Shinku Hadouken with j.L instant overhead from fuzzy guards always links into Tatsumaki L version.

On She Hulk, "increased speed" should be replaced by "Falling and jump speed returned to Vanilla status".

Upward Shinku Hadoken will let him get more damage off of his srk. I would like to keep that one.

 

[Dahbomb]

I don't think Akuma gets anything off his SRK either. Besides Ryu has two other SRKs to get a combo off of now.

 

[Karsticles]

I don't think Akuma gets anything off his SRK either. Besides Ryu has two other SRKs to get a combo off of now.

Akuma can cancel the second hit of his SRK into Messatsu Gohado-Ungyo and it connects. Ryu's dp.S is not meant for normals SRK situations; it is meant for a delayed counter against stuff like Wesker's Phantom Dance at full screen.

 

[Dahbomb]

Ah didn't know about that 2nd hit of the SRK connecting into the hyper.

Need to go through the Ryu list again although I was also talking about his SRK during Denjin mode.

Edit: Can't figure out which buff to replace because they are all stuff he should have as half are abilities being buffed to be even useful. I guess the 10 durable fireball during Denjin mode is a bit over the top especially because his charged fireball is 10 durable points too (so in Denjin mode there would be no reason to charge fireballs for durability wars). That or roll that fireball change with the regular fireball change on recovery as they are basically the same move just one is under powered up mode.

Or just roll the fuzzy overhead change with the projectile invincible Tatsumaki change.

 

[Karsticles]

Hado Kakusei should also no longer build meter with all the buffs we gave it. It is now roughly on par with Devil Trigger.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Why would you want to do charged fireballs in a timed mode anyway? If you needed Denjin mode to fight zoning you would use the faster ones to fill up the screen.

You could so something to make Denjin mode a bizarro astral vision type deal. Fast moving, high durability projectiles that cause good hitstun but do very little damage so Ryu can cut through projectiles and rush down.

 

[Dahbomb]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";81939681]Why would you want to do charged fireballs in a timed mode anyway? If you needed Denjin mode to fight zoning you would use the faster ones to fill up the screen.

You could so something to make Denjin mode a bizarro astral vision type deal. Fast moving, high durability projectiles that cause good hitstun but do very little damage so Ryu can cut through projectiles and rush down.[/QUOTE]
That's already what the Denjin mode does. His fireballs are 10 durability now, he is faster in the mode, it lasts longer and his fireballs have less recovery.

Charged fireball does cause a wall bounce so it would still be useful especially now that its aimable like Shinku Hadoken.

As far as making Denjin mode not build meter, I am for it as long as he retains the ability to extend the timer while hitting the opponent.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Well apparently it isn't very good at it then.

 

[Dahbomb]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";81941173]Well apparently it isn't very good at it then.[/QUOTE]
No I mean in our patch version he would be able to do something similar to what you are describing. In the current game Denjin mode can't do that and is one of the worst install hypers in the game, it's a pure combo extending ability.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Oh ok. I don't have the game or the guide so I get confused.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";81942529]Oh ok. I don't have the game or the guide so I get confused.[/QUOTE]
Glad to see you still come around here. What are you up to?

 

["God's Beard!"]

Glad to see you still come around here. What are you up to?

Well I'm all set up in SF now so I have a little more time. Mostly walking around the city getting reference photos or hitting the gym when I'm not drawing or going to class. The only game I play these days is SMTIV before bed but I also have Virtue's Last Reward. I can't play people online with my bad internet so I'm not even playing AE. The desk guy at my gym went to EVO this year but he doesn't live in the city.

I did go to the Winchester Mystery House for Friday the Thirteenth. That was pretty fun.

 

[Ghazi]

How do people go from Stinger->Teleport or Prop Shredder->Teleport with Dante, is it similar to jump cancelling Prop Shredder->Acid Rain?


Also, why do I see people doing s.M before going into Beehive?

 

[Dahbomb]

As an aside, since we are gearing towards the final changelog of the patch the new tier list is getting more and more obvious.

Like for example... I don't think with those changes Iron Man should have 950K health anymore. While his tri dash would still not be as fast as Storm/Magneto/Trish (it wasn't in Vanilla so it won't be here), getting a proper ground dash puts him closer to those characters in terms of speed and mobility. Nova has similar mobility to Iron Man and has 900K (he does have other tools like slides/human rockets but he won't be able to plink dash like IM can). If he stayed at 950K health he would be the most mobile character in the game at that health bracket. I think 850K would be too low but 900K feels right for new Iron Man.

I also think that Elemental Rage hyper for Storm should be better. For one it should track like Skrull's LVL3 and secondly, she should be able to get a combo off of it. This way she would be able to more easily link hypers because she does not have a LVL3. I guess to implement this change you would have to remove the forced wall bounce ability and make it a standard wall bounce so she can only link them together twice.

 

[FSLink]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRRseWdj-L8

Some neat Spiderman/Zero/Strange team synergy.

Was thinking of trying it but with Haggar as point since my Spiderman is doo-doo. Haggar + double Hadangeki assist sounds fun too.

 

[Dahbomb]

Ryu:
+Hado Kakusei no longer causes Ryu’s health to drain; startup reduced to 0+4; duration increased to 750 frames; no longer builds meter
+Aerial Shinku Hadoken can now be aimed upward.
+Hadoken recovery reduced by 10 frames across the board; Hado Kakusei Hadoken has 10 durability points.
+Baku Hadoken startup reduced to 30 frames; recovery reduced to 20 frames; now aimable like Shinku Hadoken; causes OTG ground bounce when aimed downward; 10 projectile durability.
+Ren Hadoken negates pushblock; -5 on block; now fires 4 fireballs max.
+Shin Tatsumaki Senpukyaku now causes spinning knockdown; comboable.
+Hado Kakusei Tatsumaki Senpukyaku now ignores projectiles.
+Hado Kakusei Shoryuken and Hado Shoryuken now cause a soft knockdown.
+Untechable time after air throws increased by 30 frames
+Fuzzy overhead j.L now links into Tatsumaki Senpykyaku L without needing assists

Assists: Hadoken L, Tatsumaki Senpukyaku H, Hado Shoruyken


Iron Man:
+Ground dash is now attack and crouch cancelable.
+Air dash down/forward and down back startup returned to Vanilla levels; current acceleration and momentum retained.
+s.S horizontal and vertical hitbox significantly improved.
+c.H missile travels straight forward now.
+Smart Bomb now differs in trajectory by input: L version closer to Iron Man, H version furthest away; hitbox significantly increased; can now be charged: after 15 additional frames of charging, gains a larger hitbox, more hitstun, more durability, and descends slower; assist version has 35 frames of startup.
+Proton Cannon recovery reduced from 47 to 25 frames; now -5 on block.
+s.H and j.M hit boxes extended to match the hit box of c.M.
+Iron Avenger vertical hitbox increased.
-Minimum damage scaling on specials reduced to 20%.
-Health reduced to 900K

Assists: Smart Bomb H, Repulsor Blast H, Unibeam M


She-Hulk:
+Lights Out startup reduced to 25 frames; horizontal hitbox increased.
+c.L chains into itself on block/hit.
+Emerald Cannon hyper forces a wall bounce; no longer swaps sides between inputs.
+Weight and jump speed restored to Vanilla values
+Emergency Landing (Catapult Cancel) no longer makes She-Hulk prone until landing.
+Canceling Runner’s Start has 0 frames of recovery; assists may now be called during Runner’s Start.
+c.H returned to Vanilla status.
+j.H hitbox improved slightly.
+Shooting Star now has 1 hit of armor; assist causes significant knockback on block.
+Torpedo causes less knockback on hit; assist version startup reduced to 35 frames startup.
+Somersault Kick has 1 hit of super armor beginning on frame 5.

Assists: Lights Out, Shooting Star, Torpedo


Storm:
+Lightning Sphere hitbox increased, recovery reduced significantly, chargeable for a larger hitbox/hitstun, H version now has slight tracking.
+All Double Typhoons now reach to superjump height. L and M Double Typhoon startup reduced from 63 frames to 42 frames but no longer OTG. H Double Typhoon now has tracking capability.
+Lightning Storm soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
+Flight startup reduced to 15 frames.
+Storm can now call assists during Float even at super jump height
+Fair/Foul Wind active frames reduced to 20, total opposing character movement unchanged.
+Whirlwind startup time reduced by 5 (all versions); durability and instance creation now beam-based; L version is 5x1, M version is 7x1, and H version is 9x1; all versions now travel full screen.
+Elemental Rage hyper now has tracking property; Recovery reduced so it's possible to follow up after the wall bounce; Wall bounce from Elemental Rage hyper no longer forced
+Grounds Light attacks can now properly chain into ground Heavy attacks

Assists: Whirlwind H, H Typhoon, Lightning Sphere H


I underlined the Storm Float assist change because I feel that we should come with a middle ground here. I don't like the idea of Storm sitting at super jump height, air dashing around, then Float to call an assist, fly, then Float to call another assist. This is just easy Dark Harmonizer spam into guaranteed Dark Phoenix or some other cheese strats. IMO we should let Storm call assists with Float at SJ height but there should be some limitation, like she can only call one assist with a super jump Float.

 

[Frantic]

My votes on the next 10. And also, I vote yes on the current Magneto. Is there anyone else I need to revote/vote on?

Rocket Raccoon: N – Mr. Flapper(Bear Trap) becoming 15 frame startup is something I'm still not sure of. The move is 27 startup as is, and a 12 frame reduction might be pushing it. It's a good neutral move, and it becoming 15 frames would probably just make it spammable. I'm not opposed to a reduction, but 12 frames is a pretty large reduction. 20-21 frames, and increasing the amount of time you have to OTG and still ground bounce would be a better, more reasonable change.

Ryu: N – You need to adjust the fall speed of characters after a Hado-Shoryu. Right now, they start descending extremely slow before they pop out. If they retain that fall speed, Ryu could probably loop Hado-Shoryu indefinitely, as they get propped up pretty damn high in the air.

Sentinel: Y

She-Hulk: Y

Shuma-Gorath: Y

Spencer: N – Launcher buff is unnecessary. Also, the faster fall speeds on zip wire may remove some of his midscreen hitconfirms and probably change a lot of his combos. I'll try to come up with something that will remove the infinite, but not remove any hitconfirms/combos.

Spider-Man: Undecided at the moment. Need to give the web zip change more thought.

Storm: N – No to the double airdash. Everything else seems fine.

Strider: Y – but change it to “Slide cancelable into Formation B(Shot)”. That's what I originally intended for the suggestion, but just forgot to add the 'shot' part.

Super-Skrull: Undecided. I fucking loathe Super-Skrull, so a lot of the changes need some time to digest before I vote. My knee-jerk reaction is 'no', so give me some time.

How do people go from Stinger->Teleport or Prop Shredder->Teleport with Dante, is it similar to jump cancelling Prop Shredder->Acid Rain?


Also, why do I see people doing s.M before going into Beehive?

Prop Shredder > Teleport is similar to jump canceling Prop Shredder > Acid Rain. Down, down, up + S. Stinger > Teleport is trickier. It's a bold cancel rather than a jump cancel. The way I do it is Stinger, hit down, hit A+S as Stinger is connecting, then hit down + S. I rarely, if ever, miss it. There are other ways to do it, naturally, but that's the easiest method for me.

The s.M or s.H before Volcano > Beehive is generally just a style thing. For me, it helps me slow my input down so I don't miss the Volcano. *shrug*

 

[Ghazi]

Prop Shredder > Teleport is similar to jump canceling Prop Shredder > Acid Rain. Down, down, up + S. Stinger > Teleport is trickier. It's a bold cancel rather than a jump cancel. The way I do it is Stinger, hit down, hit A+S as Stinger is connecting, then hit down + S. I rarely, if ever, miss it. There are other ways to do it, naturally, but that's the easiest method for me.

The s.M or s.H before Volcano > Beehive is generally just a style thing. For me, it helps me slow my input down so I don't miss the Volcano. *shrug*

Thank you! I will give them a try the next time I play!

I just yesterday got Injustice, I'm getting SFAE back from the friend I lent it to, and tomorrow I'm getting Tekken Tag 2. So I'll be up to my neck in things to be doing!

 

[Dahbomb]

Ryu: N – You need to adjust the fall speed of characters after a Hado-Shoryu. Right now, they start descending extremely slow before they pop out. If they retain that fall speed, Ryu could probably loop Hado-Shoryu indefinitely, as they get propped up pretty damn high in the air.

You're right. Probably much better to increase the hit stun considerably so that it's just enough that Ryu can jump and follow it up with a combo. I was always kinda wary of this change because it's basically Ryu's version of an Energy Javelin that instead of tracking has a boat load of invincibility. Would make the assist version less derpy too.

 

[Clockw0rk]

Also, why do I see people doing s.M before going into Beehive?

I believe whiffing normals before volcano (usually st.H) guarantees that beehive will connect in its entirety as the sword swing moves Dante forward.

 

[Karsticles]

@Clockw0rk: you might want to PM Solune about the Vergil stuff. He is a borderline combo genius with that character. Actually does SH loops instead of the normal stuff to me online...I've never even seen someone brave that in a tournament.

As an aside, since we are gearing towards the final changelog of the patch the new tier list is getting more and more obvious.

Like for example... I don't think with those changes Iron Man should have 950K health anymore. While his tri dash would still not be as fast as Storm/Magneto/Trish (it wasn't in Vanilla so it won't be here), getting a proper ground dash puts him closer to those characters in terms of speed and mobility. Nova has similar mobility to Iron Man and has 900K (he does have other tools like slides/human rockets but he won't be able to plink dash like IM can). If he stayed at 950K health he would be the most mobile character in the game at that health bracket. I think 850K would be too low but 900K feels right for new Iron Man.

I am comfortable with 950K for Iron Man still. He is right in line with other characters in that range in terms of overall strength.

I also think that Elemental Rage hyper for Storm should be better. For one it should track like Skrull's LVL3 and secondly, she should be able to get a combo off of it. This way she would be able to more easily link hypers because she does not have a LVL3. I guess to implement this change you would have to remove the forced wall bounce ability and make it a standard wall bounce so she can only link them together twice.

Are you aware that you can choose where Elemental Rage hits? It's not tracking, but it can hit at any range like Felicia's level 3.

She should not get combos off of it - that would make it a safe and more flexible Bionic Lancer. Storm players should position a character with an install hyper behind Storm to capitalize off of punishes. If JWong wanted to, he could anchor Ryu instead of Akuma and do this.

Ryu:
+Hado Kakusei no longer causes Ryu’s health to drain; startup reduced to 0+4; duration increased to 750 frames; no longer builds meter
+Aerial Shinku Hadoken can now be aimed upward.
+Hadoken recovery reduced by 10 frames across the board; Hado Kakusei Hadoken has 10 durability points.
+Baku Hadoken startup reduced to 30 frames; recovery reduced to 20 frames; now aimable like Shinku Hadoken; causes OTG ground bounce when aimed downward; 10 projectile durability.
+Ren Hadoken negates pushblock; -5 on block; now fires 4 fireballs max.
+Shin Tatsumaki Senpukyaku now causes spinning knockdown; comboable.
+Hado Kakusei Tatsumaki Senpukyaku now ignores projectiles.
+Hado Kakusei Shoryuken and Hado Shoryuken now cause a soft knockdown.
+Untechable time after air throws increased by 30 frames
+Fuzzy overhead j.L now links into Tatsumaki Senpykyaku L without needing assists

Assists: Hadoken L, Tatsumaki Senpukyaku H, Hado Shoruyken

Done.

Iron Man:
+Ground dash is now attack and crouch cancelable.
+Air dash down/forward and down back startup returned to Vanilla levels; current acceleration and momentum retained.
+s.S horizontal and vertical hitbox significantly improved.
+c.H missile travels straight forward now.
+Smart Bomb now differs in trajectory by input: L version closer to Iron Man, H version furthest away; hitbox significantly increased; can now be charged: after 15 additional frames of charging, gains a larger hitbox, more hitstun, more durability, and descends slower; assist version has 35 frames of startup.
+Proton Cannon recovery reduced from 47 to 25 frames; now -5 on block.
+s.H and j.M hit boxes extended to match the hit box of c.M.
+Iron Avenger vertical hitbox increased.
-Minimum damage scaling on specials reduced to 20%.
-Health reduced to 900K

Assists: Smart Bomb H, Repulsor Blast H, Unibeam M

I do not agree.

She-Hulk:
+Lights Out startup reduced to 25 frames; horizontal hitbox increased.
+c.L chains into itself on block/hit.
+Emerald Cannon hyper forces a wall bounce; no longer swaps sides between inputs.
+Weight and jump speed restored to Vanilla values
+Emergency Landing (Catapult Cancel) no longer makes She-Hulk prone until landing.
+Canceling Runner’s Start has 0 frames of recovery; assists may now be called during Runner’s Start.
+c.H returned to Vanilla status.
+j.H hitbox improved slightly.
+Shooting Star now has 1 hit of armor; assist causes significant knockback on block.
+Torpedo causes less knockback on hit; assist version startup reduced to 35 frames startup.
+Somersault Kick has 1 hit of super armor beginning on frame 5.

Assists: Lights Out, Shooting Star, Torpedo

Done.

Storm:
+Lightning Sphere hitbox increased, recovery reduced significantly, chargeable for a larger hitbox/hitstun, H version now has slight tracking.
+All Double Typhoons now reach to superjump height. L and M Double Typhoon startup reduced from 63 frames to 42 frames but no longer OTG. H Double Typhoon now has tracking capability.
+Lightning Storm soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
+Flight startup reduced to 15 frames.
+Storm can now call assists during Float even at super jump height
+Fair/Foul Wind active frames reduced to 20, total opposing character movement unchanged.
+Whirlwind startup time reduced by 5 (all versions); durability and instance creation now beam-based; L version is 5x1, M version is 7x1, and H version is 9x1; all versions now travel full screen.
+Elemental Rage hyper now has tracking property; Recovery reduced so it's possible to follow up after the wall bounce; Wall bounce from Elemental Rage hyper no longer forced
+Grounds Light attacks can now properly chain into ground Heavy attacks

Assists: Whirlwind H, H Typhoon, Lightning Sphere H

I am not a fan of your Double Typhoon change. I do not think it is necessary.

I underlined the Storm Float assist change because I feel that we should come with a middle ground here. I don't like the idea of Storm sitting at super jump height, air dashing around, then Float to call an assist, fly, then Float to call another assist. This is just easy Dark Harmonizer spam into guaranteed Dark Phoenix or some other cheese strats. IMO we should let Storm call assists with Float at SJ height but there should be some limitation, like she can only call one assist with a super jump Float.

How about we just limit her to one float per jump? I don't think it's an issue regardless, though. I've tried the Dark Harmonizer strategy with her, and it doesn't work well in practice. Running away is not an effective strategy in this game. Especially with the abundance of anti-airs we have added in. I'm fine with adding the float limit, though.

 

[Dahbomb]

There's no other character at Iron Man's health bracket with the same mobility as him. Even if you go 50K higher, he still has superior mobility to most characters only comparable to Dorm who does not even have a real ground dash. Closest character is Spider Man who does not have flight mode so he can't plink dash like IM can. The characters who have both a fast cancelable ground dash plus fast tri dash/flight are Trish, Magneto, Storm, Phoenix and new Iron Man. IM sticks out as having 950K health while everyone else has 850K or lower.

From a balance sense it no longer makes sense for IM to have 950K health. Yea in Vanilla and Ultimate it made sense, he had a slow air dash and a non cancelable ground dash... basically a worse Nova. Now his mobility is equivalent to a slightly slower Magneto only he has a 100K health advantage. His damage versus Magneto is around the same, he has great normals, a faster cr.L and most importantly he is still retaining acceleration/momentum from his dashes which combined with his faster start up on dashes would make his mobility very good.

I am not a fan of your Double Typhoon change. I do not think it is necessary.

I am fine with your Float change but I think the Double Typhoon change is necessary.

The only way to not have infinites with the move while having faster start up is to mess with her recovery on the move or the hit stun. Both of which would effect her ability to get combos off of air throw. Unless someone has a better suggestion. Personally this change makes sense.. we get faster Typhoons without worrying about her having infinites and such.

 

[Karsticles]

I said that Dormammu's can't do s.S, j.S, Purification OTG though. Why do you think Storm will be able to do it with Typhoon?

I updated the main changelist in the log with the changes you and Frantic suggested that were for clarification purposes or that we all agree on.

How is Iron Man's mobility not on par with MODOK's? Even with all of our changes, I think MODOK is still a better point character than him in general.

 

[Dahbomb]

I said that Dormammu's can't do s.S, j.S, Purification OTG though. Why do you think Storm will be able to do it with Typhoon?

Because Storm has WAY better hit stun on her Typhoon than Purification. The better hit stun on her Typhoon means that as long as she is able to connect with a Typhoon she will get a launcher after it. The reason she doesn't have an infinite because in most cases Typhoon is too slow to connect OTG after a j.S if the j.S is done high up.

How is Iron Man's mobility not on par with MODOK's? Even with all of our changes, I think MODOK is still a better point character than him in general.

MODOK doesn't really have much of a ground dash movement which is still important to have in the game. Plus regulation of health is more than just mobility, it's stuff like hit box size (which MODOK struggles with) and how fast your cr.L is (IM has one of the best cr.Ls in the game).

 

[Frantic]

I don't think it's possible for Double Typhoon to lead to infinites. Double Typhoon would require a launch to successfully loop into another one and eventually they'll flip out of the launch altogether due to hitstun decay.

It'll probably give her a loop, and it could lead to big damage with the right assists and what not, but I don't think it'll lead to infinites.

 

[Karsticles]

Because Storm has WAY better recovery and hit stun on her Typhoon that Purification. The better hit stun/recovery on her Typhoon means that as long as she is able to connect with a Typhoon she will get a launcher after it. The reason she doesn't have an infinite because in most cases Typhoon is too slow to connect OTG after a j.S if the j.S is done high up.

It's not about the recovery and hitstun, though, it's the startup. My point isn't that Dormammu can't combo off of the Purification, it's that Purification's startup is too slow to allow it to connect before the opponent roll recovers from a s.S, j.S. Since Double Typhoon's new startup is still slower than Purification, she should not be able to link it after the spike either unless she is in X-Factor.

MODOK doesn't really have much of a ground dash movement which is still important to have in the game. Plus regulation of health is more than just mobility, it's stuff like hit box size (which MODOK struggles with) and how fast your cr.L is (IM has one of the best cr.Ls in the game).

There are a lot of differences between the characters, but I feel as though Iron Man and MODOK are roughly on par. MODOK has poor ground dash movement, but he has dash-cancelable normals to make up for it, etc. I am comfortable with Iron Man having 950K health. It's not going to break the character if he has a bit too much. Hell, Spencer shouldn't have anywhere near his health; he's more of a 950K character himself. I'm more inclined to buff health when characters have too little than reduce it when characters have too much, though. Especially with the universal health buff.

 

[Frantic]

It's not about the recovery and hitstun, though, it's the startup. My point isn't that Dormammu can't combo off of the Purification, it's that Purification's startup is too slow to allow it to connect before the opponent roll recovers from a s.S, j.S. Since Double Typhoon's new startup is still slower than Purification, she should not be able to link it after the spike either unless she is in X-Factor.

This isn't necessarily true since Storm can use Double Typhoon in the air. She can go immediately into Double Typhoon the moment she recovers from the j.S.

It still wouldn't matter, though, as eventually j.S would fail to connect.

 

[Dahbomb]

Iron Man has dash cancelable normals too. New Iron Man would have fewer weaknesses than MODOK making him a more solid character, sort of like a new Magneto.

I guess if you guys don't think it will cause infinites then I will concede but I am wary of that change. It's not as simple as comparing Purification to Typhoon because A) Typhoon can be used in the air and still combo after it B) Storm can do a Lightning Sphere before the j.S, falling closer to the ground and have more time for the pick up C) Storm has a faster air dash down to get to the ground quicker (like Magneto/Doom).

What do you guys think about the Elemental Rage change?

We also need to come up with a change for Ryu's DP+S.

 

[Frantic]

I guess if you guys don't think it will cause infinites then I will concede but I am wary of that change. It's not as simple as comparing Purification to Typhoon because A) Typhoon can be used in the air and still combo after it B) Storm can do a Lightning Sphere before the j.S, falling closer to the ground and have more time for the pick up C) Storm has a faster air dash down to get to the ground quicker (like Magneto/Doom).

Honestly, changing any move's startup or recovery is one of those things that we can only go on hunches. There's no telling how that move would interact after the change without actually testing it, something that is impossible for us. That's why I generally favor small changes(1-5 frames) over the bigger changes because there's less likeliness of something screwing everything up.

 

[Dahbomb]

Pretty much everything on that list is going on hunch.

Like for example, I am 90% sure Iron Man with those changes would be like top 5, top 10 at worst. Getting in on him would be pretty difficult as he would be able to do air dash down back j.H (selection of j.H and j.d+H) with great speed. Coupled with the ground dash change he would be able to convert off of that when now he can't even convert off of max range j.H on the ground (he can but it's like a 1 frame link) easily.

He would also be able to self combo after Repulsar Spread from mid screen because of cancelable ground dash (something he can only do near the corner). He finally gets his tridash j.M pressure back which means even at large distances he can mix you up. The mobility changes will make IM's normals extremely oppressive. Combining Smart Bombs with a faster air dash + acceleration mechanic of UMVC3 IM means he can set up a pressure from super jump height with Smart Bomb (he can already do that but it's not as effective as it should be, now he would be on you faster if he gets you to block a Smart Bomb).

Proton Cannon at -5 confirms him to be a top tier support. It's one of the best DHCs and THC moves in the game and being able to bring in IM relatively safely is pretty big. With the Doom Plasma Beam nerf, IM's Beam becomes the best beam in the game. With the CC change in system mechanics, people using Repulsar Blast as an assist can get a full combo off of it now if they use it as a CC.

Not to mention qualify of life changes like better hit box on Iron Avenger (no longer whiffing when it shouldn't), better j.M/st.H hit boxes and better launcher. It's hard to say how much of an impact the new Smart Bombs will have but it's way better than what he has already.

The only reason why IM wouldn't be OP/broken is because he will still take skill to use like Magneto. You would still need to be on point with your hit confirms, you still need to have impeccable spacing and movement... you would still need to know optimum combos.

 

[Karsticles]

This isn't necessarily true since Storm can use Double Typhoon in the air. She can go immediately into Double Typhoon the moment she recovers from the j.S.

It still wouldn't matter, though, as eventually j.S would fail to connect.

Indeed. I will make a note in the annotations that we want to be sure this doesn't create a j.S, s.S, typhoon loop.

Iron Man has dash cancelable normals too. New Iron Man would have fewer weaknesses than MODOK making him a more solid character, sort of like a new Magneto.

I guess if you guys don't think it will cause infinites then I will concede but I am wary of that change. It's not as simple as comparing Purification to Typhoon because A) Typhoon can be used in the air and still combo after it B) Storm can do a Lightning Sphere before the j.S, falling closer to the ground and have more time for the pick up C) Storm has a faster air dash down to get to the ground quicker (like Magneto/Doom).

What do you guys think about the Elemental Rage change?

We also need to come up with a change for Ryu's DP+S.

I responded to the Elemental Rage change - check my earlier post.

MODOK has dash cancelable ground normals; Iron Man can only do it in the air, I believe.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I wouldn't exactly compare Elemental Rage to Bionic Arm. It is really fast, but it's not invincible. I think she should get something off of it. Plus the way the recovery of the move is, sometimes it puts you at a slight disadvantage.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Reducing Iron Man's health to 900k is completely arbitrary and uncalled for. 950k is fine, if anything it should be a million. He will never be powerful enough as a point character to justify 900k health, not that it matters much in this game.

Also chiming in again to say Vanilla Iron Man's trijump j.M mixup was completely overrated.

The only mobility change he needs is a better ground dash. You don't need to buff his air dash, its completely fine and suits his playstyle perfectly well. Just get rid of his dumb ground dash restriction.

 

[onionfrog]

I wouldn't exactly compare Elemental Rage to Bionic Arm. It is really fast, but it's not invincible. I think she should get something off of it. Plus the way the recovery of the move is, sometimes it puts you at a slight disadvantage.

I don't think it needs to be tracking, since you can control where it appears with L M or H.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I don't think it needs to be tracking, since you can control where it appears with L M or H.

I never mentioned that. That was Dahbomb.

I wouldn't be opposed to it though, just cause I'm lazy.

 

[onionfrog]

I never mentioned that. That was Dahbomb.

Oh my bad. I know Dahbomb mentioned it, I thought you meant that you were for it in your previous post.

 

[Karsticles]

Can Storm XFC cancel Elemental Rage's wall bounce into a combo?

 

[Dahbomb]

Reducing Iron Man's health to 900k is completely arbitrary and uncalled for. 950k is fine, if anything it should be a million. He will never be powerful enough as a point character to justify 900k health, not that it matters much in this game.

Also chiming in again to say Vanilla Iron Man's trijump j.M mixup was completely overrated.

The only mobility change he needs is a better ground dash. You don't need to buff his air dash, its completely fine and suits his playstyle perfectly well. Just get rid of his dumb ground dash restriction.

Its not arbitrary, its based on the buffs we gave him. You are looking at IM in just the old IM sense, this new IM would be way more potent.

The air mobility of IM in Vanilla was never unlocked because plink dash wasn't discovered yet, he didn't have acceleration on his tri dashes and he didn't have dash cancelable into normals back then. By giving him his old air dash back with a proper ground dash he essentially becomes a second Magneto in the game with a tridash that retains acceleration and insanely good normals.

I don't think it needs to be tracking, since you can control where it appears with L M or H.

Mostly because just like with Skrull's LVL3 in Vanilla you could actually whiff the super even if chose the correct distance.

Calling Elemental Rage super a Bionic Arm is disingenuous because it lacks the invincibility and lacks the vertical hit box of thd Arm to work against tri dashers. The wall bounce on it is paltry, you don't get much of anything off of it. The super is cinematic so you can't X factor it. Also like Mango said the move doesn't even put you into a great positioj after connecting it. Its just a mediocre super all around.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Can Storm XFC cancel Elemental Rage's wall bounce into a combo?

No sir.

 

[Karsticles]

No sir.

I would be okay with giving her that, then. But no combos when doing it normally. It would be way too good. Storm already has some of the best hypers in the game. We could also buff the damage.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I would be okay with giving her that, then. But no combos when doing it normally. It would be way too good. Storm already has some of the best hypers in the game. We could also buff the damage.

The super is cinematic.....not quite sure how that would work.

I'd take invincibility over more damage though.

 

[Karsticles]

The super is cinematic.....not quite sure how that would work.

I'd take invincibility over more damage though.

I figure it would work like the XFC on Lost In Nightmares.

 

[Dahbomb]

Storm only really has one good super.

Damage on Elemental Rage is irrelevant mostly because it's not used for damage, her other hypers do more damage. You can't give her XFC off of the hyper because it's a cinematic hyper. The wall bounce from the move is also not that much, less than most wall bounces so I am not even sure that would help her get a combo off of it.

Much rather take invincibility start up on it than XFC and more damage. She should still get tracking on it though because the move can whiff even if you selected the right distance.

 

[Karsticles]

Storm only really has one good super.

Damage on Elemental Rage is irrelevant mostly because it's not used for damage, her other hypers do more damage. You can't give her XFC off of the hyper because it's a cinematic hyper. The wall bounce from the move is also not that much, less than most wall bounces so I am not even sure that would help her get a combo off of it.

Much rather take invincibility start up on it than XFC and more damage. She should still get tracking on it though because the move can whiff even if you selected the right distance.

I have never seen the move whiff when you select the right distance. Ever. If it is really a thing, and I would want a video to prove it, we should just increase the hitbox.

We could end the cinematic screen on Elemental Rage earlier so it can be XFCed. I am a no vote on giving that move invincibility. Then it could counter beam hypers on reaction.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I have never seen the move whiff when you select the right distance. Ever. If it is really a thing, and I would want a video to prove it, we should just increase the hitbox.

We could end the cinematic screen on Elemental Rage earlier so it can be XFCed. I am a no vote on giving that move invincibility. Then it could counter beam hypers on reaction.

I think that's the idea.

I love punishing jackasses that just randomly do beam hypers........................even though I do it all the time

 

[Dahbomb]

Then it could counter beam hypers on reaction.

So just like 7 Rings only it does way less damage and she can't even XFC into a combo with it.

What I want to know is that what is the exact utility of Elemental Rage... because the hyper generally sucks in most situations that is supposed to be used for. It's just a fancy combo extender in most situations or used in situations where Hailstorm is too slow to combo.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

If I can kill with Elemental Rage then I will, since it takes an unusually long time for the next character to come in and I have time to get set up.


EDIT: Ummm yeah....I can't think of much use for it. It's sometimes better for bringing in another character with a DHC. And uhhh.....well....I can't think of much else. It'a really mediocre super. The one thing it has going for it is speed.