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[The Mango Sentinel]

I'm not really a Dante player, but here is a good video on the subject by our own Azure J:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hfR2PcUCMI

My own video on X-Factor combos, ranging from XF1 to XF3. Plus some additional tricks you can use while in X-Factor.

I really need to make some videos again. Have a decent amount of 'new' tech that could be utilized. I was actually planning on making some a while ago, but my recording device is flaking on me. Need to troubleshoot, but eh... effort.

Spoiler

Was planning on making a video series on shit my team can do, so basically even if I tried to start it, it'd never get finished because that's too much work! lol

Acid rain loops are good. A couple reps in XF3 will kill the bulk of the cast.

Thanks guys. These vids are good stuff. I was asking for xf3 combos, but damn...I think I'm gonna have to start using xf1 more often if I know I can kill the last character. I didn't know there was fairly simple shit he could do in xf1 that could kill.

I've mostly just been doing volcano helm breaker about 3 times and then beehive twice. They're usually dead by then.

 

[Sigmaah]

I have fallen to the dark side... I picked up Spencer(well, gonna try to play him lol)

Team is Zero/Spencer/Vergil. I'm using Hadangeki, Slant Shot and Rapid Slash, best order for this team? I gain almost 2 bars in one combo (if nailed properly) and then I don't have to use lightning loops to kill a character, just Sougenmu then DHC into Spencer's long ass hyper and if the character isn't dead by then, I can still otg for dat 80K plus another long ass hyper. Then when I have Spencer in, I can zip with double hadangekis, pretty strong id say for Spencer. I gotta learn all them Spencer combos with rapid slash and just combos with Spencer himself.

Time to lab it up today.

 

[Dahbomb]

As if you weren't already on the dark side playing Zero AND Vergil.

 

[Frantic]

Looking at the doc, I already voted on Magneto's changed version as a Y. I'll vote Jill a Y if her Double Knee Drop is changed to 5 frames across the board instead of 10. Also a Y on Nemesis.

On Super-Skrull, Inferno no longer having him prone as he's coming down is probably a bad idea since that means he could probably start confirming off it, or looping them together more than he already can.... Hmmm... maybe we could just increase the blockstun, and make it so the final hit is no longer pushblockable so you can't bypass the blockstun with a pushblock? Needs a way to prevent any sort of shenanigans.


I'll go on to the next 10 characters, I suppose.

Taskmaster - N: I feel like Sword Master should be reverted back to its original form. It's an unblockable, sure, but it's rather situational, and usually pretty resource heavy compared to the others.

Thor - N: Mighty Speech assist is still dumb.

Trish - N: This is a big one, so...

- Hopscotch does not need a faster travel time or more hitstun. It won't really help for super jump confirms(the Peekaboo change is what really needs to happen to give her good super jump confirms in most situations), and all it does is make a good move better. Plus, if it's going to OTG, having more hitstun just means she'll have a ridiculous amount of time to confirm off it(which she already would). Not necessary.

- The hitboxes on Low Voltage(well, if you discount L)) are already pretty good. Don't agree with a durability buff if we're lowering recovery, either. It's one or the other for me, not both.

- Minimum air dash height is negligible, and frankly not necessary either. Just God's Beard being God's Beard.

That about covers my main problems. Trish is already a very good character, and she honestly doesn't need a whole lot.

Tron - Y

Vergil - N: I feel like, rather than making Spiral Swords a level 2 and kind of killing his second slot synergy(and ruining some of his own point capabilities), it'd be better to reduce his overall meter gain by lowering the base damage on several of his specials(namely Lunar Phase and Round Trip, but Judgment Cut might also get a small shaving) so he's not building 80% of a bar per loop. As it is, Vergil is kind of an anchor only character with these changes. His point abilities have been reduced because he'll be forced to use Devil Trigger to make a lot of things safe, and then he'll be completely unable to build meter afterwards. His second slot synergy is also no longer that great, since neither DT or Dimensional Slash leads to even decent damage post DHC... Devil Trigger is a strong DHC to get Vergil in, but it's not a good DHC to finish a job and point characters will either end up using a level 3, or just slapping Vergil anchor instead of second slot. It can ruin some team composition, which I don't like. Additionally, I'd probably lower the damage on Spiral Swords as well(to reduce chip and overall damage per loop). There is the issue of durability on it as well, but that wouldn't be terribly hard to fix.

Viewtiful Joe - Y

Wesker - Y

Wolverine - N: Don't see why Swiss Cheese needs to be nerfed. It's kind of a useless move as is, and makes the new assist version less useful for lockdown.

X-23 - Y

Zero - Still finding myself disagreeing with the Buster change, but I'll think about it some more.

Lots of words. I think I covered most of my grievances, though.

Can Spider-man even block during the startup frames of Web Glide right now?

No, he can't. I hit him out of the startup all the time. The only time he can block is when he's actually zipping around.

 

[Dahbomb]

I have basically spent over a year figuring out ways to nerf SS to a point where it would be both useful while not being OP at 1 bar.

You have to change the following stuff:

*Minimum scaling on his specials need to be halved (10% at most)
*Round Trip damage lowered
*Lunar Phase damage lowered
*Duration of SS lowered
*Durability of each sword reduced
*Number of hits per sword lowered (net loss of 1/3rd duration, damage and durability)
*Vertical hit box of swords nerfed


As you can see that's a lot of changes just to make that hyper fair. It would not fill into our 10 change limit per character because some of the other changes on the character have to be made.

2nd position Vergil would of course be greatly nerfed but right now he is too OP in that position. Anchor Vergil was nerfed anyway but still very strong. Point Vergil would just have to go for more resets and spend meter on DT which is still a top 5 utility hyper. He would save his meter for 2 bar SS plus Blistering Swords and Storm swords which would still be powerful.

He would still be a better support character than Wesker as well as a better anchor and about the same point capability.

 

[Frantic]

*Minimum scaling on his specials need to be halved (10% at most)
*Round Trip damage lowered
*Lunar Phase damage lowered
*Duration of SS lowered
*Durability of each sword reduced
*Number of hits per sword lowered (net loss of 1/3rd duration, damage and durability)
*Vertical hit box of swords nerfed

If you're lowering the damage on Round Trip and Lunar Phase right, you don't really need to lower the minimum damage scaling since the damage reduction would take care of most of it. The duration, durability, number of hits and hitbox of Spiral Swords can all go in the same change like we've done for other changes.

2nd position Vergil would of course be greatly nerfed but right now he is too OP in that position. Anchor Vergil was nerfed anyway but still very strong. Point Vergil would just have to go for more resets and spend meter on DT which is still a top 5 utility hyper. He would save his meter for 2 bar SS plus Blistering Swords and Storm swords which would still be powerful.

The main problem with point Vergil is that he now does not have a lot that'll stop the rushdown characters. He has no double-jump to help him stay out of other character's business at the start of the round; he's lost his Helm Breaker OS(and even if uses Helm Breaker, they can chicken guard it and punish it all the time now); has to cancel into Devil Trigger to make a whiffed normal or any solo mixup attempts safe. He'd be an inferior point character compared to a lot of others. Dante would fare better on point than Vergil, since Dante does have a double jump, he has back airdash j.H double-OS still intact, has moves that are naturally safe, has a semi-invincible move in Hammer, and has Devil Trigger to fall back on only if he really screws something up.

I just feel like we've nerfed Vergil to the point where it's hard to justify picking him over alternative characters. He's not a great assist, he's not a great point, a great second, and his anchor abilities are not so good that you wouldn't just pick a one of the other 'Dark' anchors and be better off overall.

Basically, Vergil is a pain in the ass to balance. He's either too good, or just kinda there.

 

[Karsticles]

The big reason Spiral Swords should cost 2 meters is how boring it makes the game. It offers way too much lockdown. Vergil with 5 bars and hidden missiles will do comparabme chip to Dormammu with 5 bars and hidden missiles. That is not good, and not fun.

 

[Dahbomb]

Vergil being able to chip at the same rate as Dorm is not the issue (otherwise why is it OK for Dorm to do it but not Vergil). The problem is that the lockdown is too oppressive and any lapse in judgment would lead into a dead character.

I guess that level of lockdown is already nerfed because we took out RT glitch (a major component of Vergil's lockdown) and reduced number of Missiles. Still though this is not what the character is about, he's a mix up/footsie character with high reliance on meter. If he can build back meter after using SS from just standard pressure then that is a major problem, its Strider Rocks level of absurdity. While not a true one player situation 1 meter SS makes it very close to a one player game where the person either dies from pressure or dies because je got opened up.

Vergil still out ranks every character except Ghost Rider in terms of normal priority. Dante vs Vergil is still a match where Vergil can apply pressure through his vastly superior normals and he is way better at handling rusdown characters than Dante because of his projectile canceling normals to cut through those beam assists. Even with the changes I have a hard time justifying Wesker's slot over Vergil's on a team.

 

[Frantic]

The big reason Spiral Swords should cost 2 meters is how boring it makes the game. It offers way too much lockdown. Vergil with 5 bars and hidden missiles will do comparabme chip to Dormammu with 5 bars and hidden missiles. That is not good, and not fun.

All of which can be changed. Too much lockdown? Reduce duration or the amount of hits it has. Too much chip? Reduce the damage. Vergil with 5 bars where he builds almost as much back through the strings he's using? Make it so his strings don't build so much freaking meter.

To me, changing Spiral Swords to a level 2 is a lazy(and Capcom) way of 'fixing' the problem without actually fixing the problem. Spiral Swords is still as dumb as it is now, but "it's okay, it now costs TWO meters instead of one!" Yeah, sure, he won't be able to use it as much as he could, but when he does use it it's still as dumb as it was before without making him any better without the meter.

Honestly, I just want Vergil to be more interesting as a character. As it is, he's a simple, braindead character who puts me to sleep just playing him. Changing Spiral Swords to a level 2 makes him less braindead, but makes him become an even more boring and simple character. Having to go for resets does nothing to make him more interesting, either. He's still drier than Nova and Wolverine combined.

Vergil still out ranks every character except Ghost Rider in terms of normal priority. Dante vs Vergil is still a match where Vergil can apply pressure through his vastly superior normals and he is way better at handling rusdown characters than Dante because of his projectile canceling normals to cut through those beam assists. Even with the changes I have a hard time justifying Wesker's slot over Vergil's on a team.

Eh... all Vergil has going for him in the Dante vs Vergil fight in this theoretical patch is his normals. If it was 1v1, Dante has superior zoning, superior pressure, superior resets, superior damage(now that Spiral Swords is a level 2), and superior safety

 

[Dahbomb]

Vergil still has a superior throw game and it's not like SS is not available to him. With 2 meters he becomes better than Dante, even at 1 meter for DT he can give Dante a hard time. While Dante will probably do more damage, Vergil still has access to Wolverine level of easy mode combos for easy damage.

SS being powerful (or as you say "dumb") at 2 bars is perfectly acceptable. People spend 3 bars for Orbs, 2 bars for SS AND Blistering/Storm sword formation is pretty damn good.

There isn't anything you can do to make Vergil more interesting aside from reworking him or adding more moves. The most interesting thing about him is Blistering/Storm swords but we can't make those 1 bar either it would be worse than Spiral Swords.

As far as the changes we could make to Vergil to accommodate 1 bar Spiral Swords, this is the change list. I can put this up as an alternative like we did for Firebrand and his unblockable. IMO Spiral Sword is a big issue so I don't mind spending more time discussing it.

Vergil:

- Round Trip glitch removed; Round Trip damage decreased from 20,000 per hit to 10,000 per hit
+/- Lunar Phase vertical hitbox increased slightly; damage decreased from 25,000 x 7 to 15,000 x 7
+ Rising Sun now causes the same hitstun as its point version when used as a crossover counter.
+ Sword Storm projectiles may now be fired manually with an A+S input, as with Blistering Swords.
- Rapid Slash is now -20 on block.
- Spiral Swords vertical hitbox decreased slightly, number of hits per sword changed from 3 to 2 (decreasing damage and durability of entire hyper by 33%), duration decreased by 33%
- Dimension Slash may no longer cross up.
- Helm Breaker can no longer be canceled into s.S.
- Invincibility frames on Devil Trigger removed.
- Judgment Cut damage decreased from 30,000 x 5 to 20,000 x 5

Assists: Rapid Slash, Rising Sun, Judgment Cut (Tracking)

 

["God's Beard!"]

+ Spiral Swords persists on tag out

 

[Frantic]

Vergil still has a superior throw game and it's not like SS is not available to him. With 2 meters he becomes better than Dante, even at 1 meter for DT he can give Dante a hard time.

Well, obviously, but Vergil is a lot less threatening for Dante when he doesn't have to worry about Spiral Swords.

Although theorizing about a matchup in a theoretical patch is getting a bit too theoretical for me. My original point was mainly that Dante generally has more answers to more situations across his wide variety of moves and tools. Vergil's answer to any given situation is more or less 'throw on Spiral Swords and regain control of the neutral' or 'HELM BREAKER' so nerfing both means he's got a lot less options now, especially when playing him on point. Not to mention anchor Vergil is less threatening now while still falling like a rock.

SS being powerful (or as you say "dumb") at 2 bars is perfectly acceptable. People spend 3 bars for Orbs, 2 bars for SS AND Blistering/Storm sword formation is pretty damn good.

I suppose free Blistering/Storm Swords is good, and the addition of being able to fire Storm Swords at will would definitely make that move much, much more tricky... but eh. I'm just not sure if we hit Vergil too hard with the nerf bat or not. He deserves nerfs, but I don't want him to end up bad or anything.

As for Ouroboros, people say it sucks at three bars.

Spoiler

It doesn't, but you know how people are. 2 bar Spiral Swords is gonna be ASS tier.

There isn't anything you can do to make Vergil more interesting aside from reworking him or adding more moves. The most interesting thing about him is Blistering/Storm swords but we can't make those 1 bar either it would be worse than Spiral Swords.

I just hate how boring he is in UMvC3. He's a ton of fun to play in DMC3:SE, but in here he's straight ResidentSleeper tier. It's weird, too, since he's very accurate to his DMC3 portrayal(more than Dante, even).

Spiral Sword is a big issue so I don't mind spending more time discussing it.

Spiral Swords, causing grief and problems since 2001.

But yeah, Spiral Swords is one of those things that's kinda hard to balance just because it'll either end up too good, or not really worth it... At least Vergil isn't invincible during the startup like his boss fight in DMC3.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";82924837]+ Spiral Swords persists on tag out[/QUOTE]God's Beard gonna God's Beard.

 

[Dahbomb]

I listed alternative changelog for Vergil using 1 bar Spiral Swords as template.

Reduced damage on his 3 main specials that build him a lot of meter in block strings and combos. Triple nerfed Spiral Sword in almost every department.

I honestly feel that a Vergil which is more cautious about his block strings and meter management while opting for more resets to conserve meter is a much more interesting character than a Vergil who can just "put on the belt" whenever things get rough. Even with the nerfs he would be able to power through various forms of zoning and apply free pressure for 1 bar.

 

[Frantic]

I listed alternative changelog for Vergil using 1 bar Spiral Swords as template.

Reduced damage on his 3 main specials that build him a lot of meter in block strings and combos. Triple nerfed Spiral Sword in almost every department.

That list is basically what I was thinking for a potential changelist for Vergil.

I honestly feel that a Vergil which is more cautious about his block strings and meter management while opting for more resets to conserve meter is a much more interesting character than a Vergil who can just "put on the belt" whenever things get rough. Even with the nerfs he would be able to power through various forms of zoning and apply free pressure for 1 bar.

Well, he would be more interesting in a way, but he wouldn't be all that interesting. I suppose I just dislike the fact that there's more or less one way to play Vergil with no real variance, and regardless of the change you'd end up with a singular playstyle.

I'll think about it some more, though. I suppose you could list me as 'undecided' right now.

 

[Dahbomb]

There are 3 ways to play Vergil.

*Pressure/Lockdown Vergil
*Teleport mix up Vergil
*Dark Vergil

And there's the extremely rare defensive footsie/Judgment Cut Vergil especially with DT on.

 

[Karsticles]

If you reduce Spiral Sword's hits, you mess up sword loops.

 

[Dahbomb]

If you reduce Spiral Sword's hits, you mess up sword loops.

Not really because you are not messing with the hit stun of the swords. The only thing that would impact his combos is the length of SS which will only impact the most optimized SS loops (which are absurd as it is), his basic loops will still work.

The number of hits change is only impacting his durability on the swords.

 

[Karsticles]

Not really because you are not messing with the hit stun of the swords. The only thing that would impact his combos is the length of SS which will only impact the most optimized SS loops (which are absurd as it is), his basic loops will still work.

The number of hits change is only impacting his durability on the swords.

Let me rephrase:
1) If you reduce SS duration, you destroy his combos.
2) If you keep SS duration at 1 bar, you create the 1-player game.

Hence, the only good option is making SS a 2 bar hyper.

Also, the number of hits would affect his combos, because the juggles would drop earlier. Lunar Phase after SS would probably lead to a hard knockdown.

 

[Dahbomb]

You wouldn't "destroy" his combos but he would have a more limited selection of sword loops with less duration.

Number of hits don't really matter much when it comes to comboability, all it changes is damage. You could decrease the number of hits from Jam Session, Flamethrower and most multi hitting moves but they would combo fine.

In any case I am fine with 2 bars SS because it's a simpler solution and makes no impact on his meterless game. So much has to change around with 1 bar SS to make it fair, not really worth it on a more limited patch with no chance to test stuff. Vergil loses his DHC glitch ability and loses SS loops but that's OK because no ones likes that and it inflates damage in the game.

 

[Karsticles]

You wouldn't "destroy" his combos but he would have a more limited selection of sword loops with less duration.

Number of hits don't really matter much when it comes to comboability, all it changes is damage. You could decrease the number of hits from Jam Session, Flamethrower and most multi hitting moves but they would combo fine.

In any case I am fine with 2 bars SS because it's a simpler solution and makes no impact on his meterless game. So much has to change around with 1 bar SS to make it fair, not really worth it on a more limited patch with no chance to test stuff. Vergil loses his DHC glitch ability and loses SS loops but that's OK because no ones likes that and it inflates damage in the game.

I don't see how Vergil loses his DHC ability - Devil Trigger is great to DHC into.

 

[Dahbomb]

I don't see how Vergil loses his DHC ability - Devil Trigger is great to DHC into.

I am talking about DHC glitch combos! Meaning getting nearly a full combo that does great damage even at max scaling. The combos you get with DT pale in comparison, they will hardly do any damage at all if they even combo. Vergil's Spiral Sword loop DHC is essentially game breaking because aside from Zero (who is also game breaking) there are very few ways in the game to inflict such high damage off of a single DHC.... in most cases it's a TOD.

It's obviously going to kill stuff like low damage character on point (theoretical Strider on point team) DHC into Vergil for high damage team synergies but it needs to be taken out or nerfed. Low damage characters are usually low damage for a reason.

 

[Karsticles]

I am talking about DHC glitch combos! Meaning getting nearly a full combo that does great damage even at max scaling. The combos you get with DT pale in comparison, they will hardly do any damage at all if they even combo. Vergil's Spiral Sword loop DHC is essentially game breaking because aside from Zero (who is also game breaking) there are very few ways in the game to inflict such high damage off of a single DHC.... in most cases it's a TOD.

It's obviously going to kill stuff like low damage character on point (theoretical Strider on point team) DHC into Vergil for high damage team synergies but it needs to be taken out or nerfed. Low damage characters are usually low damage for a reason.

Oh that - agreed entirely.

 

[Zissou]

Taskmaster - Y, though I could go either way on his sword master moves. They're useless presently (outside of combos), so giving him overhead options would be nice, I guess.

Thor - N, I agree with Frantic that mighty speech assist is dumb. Also, I'm kind of against giving him armored st.H. Every heavy does not need armored normals.

Trish - N, I need to think about her some more. I have some of the same concerns that others have mentioned.

Tron - Y

Vergil - Y

Viewtiful Joe - N, need to think more about charged voomerangs.

Wesker - Y

Wolverine - Y (if Dahbomb's commented changes are incorporated).

X-23 - Y

Zero - Y

 

[Dahbomb]

Normally I would agree that every heavy does not need an armored normal but in Thor's case he really needs it. Too easy to rush him down especially with his shit ground mobility.

 

[Karsticles]

Figure out a third assist for Thor if we are removing Mighty Speech.

 

[onionfrog]

Figure out a third assist for Thor if we are removing Mighty Speech.

Mighty Strike L?
Seems like it might be a decent horizontal assist choice.

Mighty Strike H could also be an option, give it a hit of armor(assist only). It could work similar to hulk's Anti-Air Gamma Charge assist.

...
or maybe Mighty Smash H to give more OTG assist choices in the game?

 

["God's Beard!"]

Mighty Strike H already has armor.

 

[Dahbomb]

Fully charged Mighty Strike that comes out instantly as an assist.

Basically a buffed version of what he has already.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Fully charged Mighty Strike M that comes out instantly as an assist.

why

 

[Dahbomb]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";83002877]why[/QUOTE]
Because I can't think of anything else. Maybe change up the direction of the Strike.

 

[onionfrog]

Fully charged Mighty Strike that comes out instantly as an assist.

Basically a buffed version of what he has already.

I like this but it might be too good. It'd be a quick anti-air assist that pretty much any character would have tons of time to get a full combo off of it.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";82999889]Mighty Strike H already has armor.[/QUOTE]
Cool, I wasn't entirely sure if that was the case. I think might strike H would make a pretty good assist.

 

[Dahbomb]

Yea that might be too good.. go through projectiles, armored and does a ton of hit stun. Probably settle on a middle ground for Mighty Strike.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Charged version only adds soft knockdown. It'd be fine if it was the horizontal one.

 

[Dahbomb]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";83007749]Charged version only adds soft knockdown. It'd be fine if it was the horizontal one.[/QUOTE]
Soft knockdown on an assist is a pretty big deal though. Not many assists have it.

Still I would be fine with it, would work like an expansion assist.

 

[SolarKnight]

If you ever want to feel better about yourself, just remember that you're not me and didn't get sent to the losers bracket with a lv3 from Nemesis of all people.

At least I actually won a match in losers that's like a miracle right there.

While on this subject, what's the most "humiliating" loss you guys have had?

 

[Professor Beef]

If you ever want to feel better about yourself, just remember that you're not me and didn't get sent to the losers bracket with a lv3 from Nemesis of all people.

At least I actually won a match in losers that's like a miracle right there.

While on this subject, what's the most "humiliating" loss you guys have had?

Lost to XF3 Vergil after having a perfect up until then

 

[Vice]

If you ever want to feel better about yourself, just remember that you're not me and didn't get sent to the losers bracket with a lv3 from Nemesis of all people.

At least I actually won a match in losers that's like a miracle right there.

While on this subject, what's the most "humiliating" loss you guys have had?

Had Nova, Hawkeye and Strider. 3+ bars and X-factor and lost to anchor Doom. Twice on stream against F. Champ. Choke to the maximum.

 

[Sigmaah]

If you ever want to feel better about yourself, just remember that you're not me and didn't get sent to the losers bracket with a lv3 from Nemesis of all people.

At least I actually won a match in losers that's like a miracle right there.

While on this subject, what's the most "humiliating" loss you guys have had?

Anytime I have 3 or 2 characters with X-Factor and I end up losing to a "Dark" whoever.

 

[shaowebb]

Is the game patch notes you were voting on done now?

 

[Dahbomb]

Is the game patch notes you were voting on done now?

Its almost done we are at the final stretch.

 

[Grecco]

Im genuinely wondering what an end game zero team looks like


zero vergil strider? zero dante strider? don't really think ZMC is strong in the long run cause of neutral game.

 

[Karsticles]

Charged Mighty Strike is good, but none of his grounded versions go forward, right? One goes up, one goes up-forward, and where does the third go?

 

["God's Beard!"]

Charged Mighty Strike is good, but none of his grounded versions go forward, right? One goes up, one goes up-forward, and where does the third go?

Forward.

 

[Karsticles]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";83134225]Forward.[/QUOTE]
Oh, but it must only be positive in the air, right?

 

["God's Beard!"]

Oh, but it must only be positive in the air, right?

Couldn't tell you off hand, but I think the ground one is positive if charged.

 

[FSLink]

Im genuinely wondering what an end game zero team looks like


zero vergil strider? zero dante strider? don't really think ZMC is strong in the long run cause of neutral game.

Zero/Dante/Strider most likely and I think Zero/Vergil/Dante will be a better ZMC setup once people get better at combating anchor Vergil.
I also think Zero/Frank West/Dante will be really good too.

 

[Dahbomb]

Im genuinely wondering what an end game zero team looks like


zero vergil strider? zero dante strider? don't really think ZMC is strong in the long run cause of neutral game.

End game Zero team either has Dante on it or Doom (for specific match ups). If you plan to play Doom then Vergil with him is standard. Otherwise probably Zero/Dante/Strider or Strider replaced with some horizontal assist maybe Strange.

If you really only want to play for Zero then Zero/Doom/Dante is the best but its two support characters. Not that Dante plus Dante isn't good but you need at least one top tier point on that team. Plasma Beam is absurd for Zero and Missiles are really annoying with him too. Zero/Dante/Hawkeye is pretty good too if you want two supports.

People hate on Zero plus Vergil but its really good, Rapid Slash does a lot of things for Zero and of course one is the best point the other is the best anchor. The main problem is that Dante and Vergil don't gel as well together but its still very competent.

As much as people don't want to admit it, ZMC is still an end game type team. It has the best point character with his best assist along with the best anchor... that is enough to make a top tier team. People will use that team in the order of Zero/Vergil/Dante like Flux does, he basically plays Vergil as a second point with Jam Session amd plays anchor Dante who is damn good. XF2 Dark Vergil with Jam Session is a beast. Also this team is the only real effective counter to ChrisG's team or a team like this (put Strider on the team as well).

 

[Sigmaah]

Looks like I'm playing ZMC wrong. I have Dante 2nd lol. I hate anchor Dante.

Would it be better to have Vergil 2nd?

The other day I was playing someone in player match and his mic was on and his buddy was talking to him about what he does after he finishes watching a porno... LMAO

 

[Karsticles]

Looks like I'm playing ZMC wrong. I have Dante 2nd lol. I hate anchor Dante.

Would it be better to have Vergil 2nd?

The other day I was playing someone in player match and his mic was on and his buddy was talking to him about what he does after he finishes watching a porno... LMAO

Dante should be second. DHC Vergil in safely.

 

[Dahbomb]

There are numerous schools of thoughts on the whole team order of ZMC. Dante second means he is just a meat shield until he DHCs Vergil in (that's two bars to get him in which he might not always have) where as if Vergil is second he can fight well with Jam Session behind him. Also if Zero is low on health he can just Sogenmu into SS/DT with Vergil to keep applying pressure where as with Dante he would give up some pressure/offense to get a better point in. On the other side, Dante has better ways to get out of incoming mix ups than Vergil so you will have a higher chance of getting to play. And of course XF3 Vergil is Da God.

Flux plays Dante last and he is a big proponent of it.