Support NeoGAF

[Solune]

woah totally forgot about this post. thanks for the reply, will incorporate it into my game!

edit: after trying it out a bit, the cr.H seems to be difficult to get consistently (read: at all). The reason I was partial to the combos ending in cut to cr.H without the round trip is because the cr.H would hit consistently (since swords are still going towards the end). Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

Hey Clock! That's the original post, see the other reply I gave below. This SHOULD be way easier and also gives more damage than S > UpperSlash albeit not by much approx 13k damage.

Tried a few variations , as well as on multiple sizes. The most consistent after DHC is, immediately release roundtrip, judgement cut L, judgement cut L, cr.H > Stinger. You will always have roundtrip charge for the wallbounce.

Also a few things, congratulations on qualifying for SS, was rooting for you all the way. Second I was impressed with your Vergil air throw into Rawtag Doom combo!

 

[Karsticles]

So just like 7 Rings only it does way less damage and she can't even XFC into a combo with it.

What I want to know is that what is the exact utility of Elemental Rage... because the hyper generally sucks in most situations that is supposed to be used for. It's just a fancy combo extender in most situations or used in situations where Hailstorm is too slow to combo.

Dr. Strange pays for his hyper in a lot of ways as a character. This is not something to give out lightly, and we have already made a lot of improvements to Storm. Elemental Rage can punish some things that many other hypers cannot, like Hyper Sentinel Force, Stalking Flare, and Photon Array.

 

[Dahbomb]

By punish you mean doing very little damage. In most cases, Storm can punish hypers like those with Hailstorm and do higher damage. If Hail getz blocked or trades Storm would still be in an advantageous position. And Storm can THC the Hailstorm for instant activation at 2 bars and/or XFC it even for higher damage, more chip and more pressure.

Elemental Rage sucks, it might as well not exist. Storm's meter is very precious and even in cases where she can use Elemental Rage to punish a random hyper for low damage.... she would much rather save it for an assist call, DHC out/in, safe chip or do bigger damage in combos with Hailstorm. At least we buffed her air hyper to be slightly more useful. Seems like double standard when pretty much every character got their lesser used/useless moves buffed including some hypers.

List of hypers that were buffed (and mind you most of these were already pretty damn good to begin with):

Messatsu-Gohado Ungyo
Raging Demon
Divine Instruments
Gold Armor
Final Justice
Hyper Charging Star
Grenade Launcher
Kikosho
4th Wall Crisis
Happy Happy Trigger
Spell of Vishanti (considered to be one of the best hypers in the game)
Kitty Helper
All of Firebrand's hypers
Spirit of Vengeance
Hellfire Maelstrom
Giant Haggar Press
Gimlet (considered one of the best hypers in the game)
Chireitou
Gamma Quake
Volcanic Roar
Dragon's Prey
Proton Cannon
Mad Beast
Hyper Psionic Blaster
Killer Illumination
Darkness Illusion
All of Nemesis' hypers
Mad Hopper
All of Ryu's LVL1 hypers
Hard Drive
Emerald Cannon
Chaos Dimension
Ultimate Web Throw
Maximum Spider
Lightning Storm
Legion
Inferno (well buff and nerf but the buff is WAY better)
Skull Torch
Aegis Counter
Mighty Thunder
High Voltage
Servbot Takeout
Rhino Charge
Berserker Charge
Weapon X Prime



Pretty much every character in the game got a buff to one of their hypers and in some cases more than one. A lot of those hypers were already way better than Elemental Rage to begin with. In comparison, the hyper might as well not even exist because in most cases it's a waste of bar. Meter management is all about considering opportunity cost of moves and the profit from using Elemental Rage over Hailstorm is in most cases significantly lower.

 

[Karsticles]

Elemental Rage is better than you give it credit for. Install hyper dhcs lead to full combos, and it can punish a ton of stuff.

 

[Dahbomb]

So you need two bars to convert off of a non invincible move when there are invincible moves in the game that can convert solo without additional meter required (X23, Nova, Spencer, Spider Man)...

At the very least make it so that Storm can XFC (like every single punish hyper in the game) and combo herself from it although you would have to rework the move a bit so that the wall bounce is more exaggerated on it so that you can XFC the recovery and combo off of the wall bounce. It being a cinematic hyper means that you usually have to wait until the character is in hard knockdown state before you can even XF.

 

[XxSlasherMcGirkxX]

Wait what? Why are we buffing Inferno hyper?

 

[Clockw0rk]

Hey Clock! That's the original post, see the other reply I gave below. This SHOULD be way easier and also gives more damage than S > UpperSlash albeit not by much approx 13k damage.


Also a few things, congratulations on qualifying for SS, was rooting for you all the way. Second I was impressed with your Vergil air throw into Rawtag Doom combo!

Thanks man, this one seems to work better. I'll play around with it and see if I can make it happen consistently.

And thanks! That rawtag combo is nothn special though!

 

[Frantic]

Wait what? Why are we buffing Inferno hyper?

Because Karst has bias towards characters that he'll strategically cover up with a logical argument.

Spoiler

If I remember the conversation right, Karst mainly wants Inferno to be somewhat safe so that he doesn't just die after attempting a solo mixup. Basically the same thing as how Wolverine cancels into Berserker Charge to make Berserker Slash safe. I can sort of agree, since Meteor Smash is much more obvious than Berserker Slash, and it's also much easier to avoid and punish.

Of course, I'd still rather Skrull just die.

 

[Dahbomb]

Wait what? Why are we buffing Inferno hyper?

It's completely safe now at the expense of doing less damage.

To be honest I don't see the point of making both Skull Torch and Inferno safe, one is enough. Especially Skull Torch since it has some invincibility on it.

 

[MiniBossBattle]

Does Tron even have a good assist? I can only see her on point.

 

[Karsticles]

It's completely safe now at the expense of doing less damage.

To be honest I don't see the point of making both Skull Torch and Inferno safe, one is enough. Especially Skull Torch since it has some invincibility on it.

Skrull Torch is not safe. That hyper is pure ass.

So you need two bars to convert off of a non invincible move when there are invincible moves in the game that can convert solo without additional meter required (X23, Nova, Spencer, Spider Man)...

At the very least make it so that Storm can XFC (like every single punish hyper in the game) and combo herself from it although you would have to rework the move a bit so that the wall bounce is more exaggerated on it so that you can XFC the recovery and combo off of the wall bounce. It being a cinematic hyper means that you usually have to wait until the character is in hard knockdown state before you can even XF.

I am okay with adding the XFC cancel combo to E Rage. Nova's hyper is not invincible, Spencer's is op, X-23's does not have startup invincibility, and Spider-man's is not invincible. Check the frame data. Spencer is the only character with an invincible level 1 that leads to full combos from anywhere beyond melee distance.

 

[Dahbomb]

All of those hypers had more invincibility than Elemental Rage (whether active or projectile or start up) or had some other utility like being good combo enders. I didn't specify just start up invincibility... hell if Elemental Rage even had some projectile invincibility that would be decent. In any case I am fine with just the XF change.

Didn't you make a change on the Torch hyper so that he doesn't go prone after the hyper? Maybe the wording confused me but it seemed like the hyper was safer.

 

[Sigmaah]

I'm down for inferno being safe and torch being safe. Skrull needs to be more safe!

 

[Dahbomb]

Skull Torch shouldn't be safe if it has start up invincibility... otherwise it would make Inferno being safe redundant.

 

[Karsticles]

Skull Torch shouldn't be safe if it has start up invincibility... otherwise it would make Inferno being safe redundant.

It doesn't have startup invincibility, it has invincibility shortly after startup iirc. I wish it did! Skrull Torch is pretty useless. I can't think of a reason to ever use it.

 

[Dahbomb]

It doesn't have startup invincibility, it has invincibility shortly after startup iirc. I wish it did! Skrull Torch is pretty useless. I can't think of a reason to ever use it.

Yea I know, I thought you added it in the patch changes.

That is to say I am under the impression that in our changes Skull Torch gains full start up invulnerability while not being prone after the hyper. I am fine with the invulnerability but I don't want this hyper to be completely safe, that's just non sense. With better invincibility it can at least be a bail out move like Viper's Emergency Combination or move you can use to bait out a button then punish with it like Hulk, unsafe move, Gamma Crush.

 

[FSLink]

Does Tron even have a good assist? I can only see her on point.

Tron Fire assist is a decent alpha counter, and Boulder is a pretty good projectile. Strike is really just a pressure tool/combo extension much like Wolverine's Berserker Barrage assist.

 

[Karsticles]

Yea I know, I thought you added it in the patch changes.

That is to say I am under the impression that in our changes Skull Torch gains full start up invulnerability while not being prone after the hyper. I am fine with the invulnerability but I don't want this hyper to be completely safe, that's just non sense. With better invincibility it can at least be a bail out move like Viper's Emergency Combination or move you can use to bait out a button then punish with it like Hulk, unsafe move, Gamma Crush.

I agree, that would be too good.

 

[Dahbomb]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=679725

I am just going to leave this here for the DMC fans in this thread.

It MIGHT be happening and just like it's the motto of NeoGAF... I WILL BELIEVE!!!

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

First time in a while I couldn't find a match immediately. I think people are on that GTA 5. I don't blame them though, the shit is good. But after playing it for 3 hours I needed a break.

Any Dante players have good xf combos? I'm looking for good damage without wasting much time.

 

[onionfrog]

Any Dante players have good xf combos? I'm looking for good damage without wasting much time.

I'm not really a Dante player, but here is a good video on the subject by our own Azure J:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hfR2PcUCMI

 

[Frantic]

First time in a while I couldn't find a match immediately. I think people are on that GTA 5. I don't blame them though, the shit is good. But after playing it for 3 hours I needed a break.

Any Dante players have good xf combos? I'm looking for good damage without wasting much time.

My own video on X-Factor combos, ranging from XF1 to XF3. Plus some additional tricks you can use while in X-Factor.

I really need to make some videos again. Have a decent amount of 'new' tech that could be utilized. I was actually planning on making some a while ago, but my recording device is flaking on me. Need to troubleshoot, but eh... effort.

Spoiler

Was planning on making a video series on shit my team can do, so basically even if I tried to start it, it'd never get finished because that's too much work! lol

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Its not arbitrary, its based on the buffs we gave him. You are looking at IM in just the old IM sense, this new IM would be way more potent.

The air mobility of IM in Vanilla was never unlocked because plink dash wasn't discovered yet, he didn't have acceleration on his tri dashes and he didn't have dash cancelable into normals back then. By giving him his old air dash back with a proper ground dash he essentially becomes a second Magneto in the game with a tridash that retains acceleration and insanely good normals.

Iron Man had the same ground dash restrictions in Vanilla he had in Ultimate if I'm not mistaken.

The thing about chaning Iron Man's health is his current skillset doesn't justify him having 950 instead of a million. If you're going to buff him, its justifying his current health amount, not making it worse.

 

[Dahbomb]

Iron Man had the same ground dash restrictions in Vanilla he had in Ultimate if I'm not mistaken..

I know that.

Basically I am saying that Ultimate Iron Man is fine at 950K - 1 million.

However, having a proper ground dash (like Nova, Magneto) plus his tri dash offense and plink air dashing from Vanilla while also having dashes being able to be canceled into normals like Magneto WHILE also having the acceleration/momentum of Nova/UMVC3 IM would make this new Iron Man much superior and quite frankly not deserving of 950K health. And this is just talking about only two of the buffs that were given to Iron Man in this patch. This is why I feel 900K would be appropriate for this new IM. He would basically be a second Magneto in the game, only he would be slightly slower while having longer reaching normals.

In UMVC3, Iron Man is like a Nova without having his slide or his fast ground movement or his j.H throw OS air dash game.

 

[Frantic]

I had someone call my Dante boring because all I did was "jump and run". If my constant movement + perfectly placed zoning was boring, I presume his super jumping forward and hitting S on the way down is a varied and interesting playstyle. I've been doing things all wrong!

 

[Azure J]

My own video on X-Factor combos, ranging from XF1 to XF3. Plus some additional tricks you can use while in X-Factor.

I really need to make some videos again. Have a decent amount of 'new' tech that could be utilized. I was actually planning on making some a while ago, but my recording device is flaking on me. Need to troubleshoot, but eh... effort.

Spoiler

Was planning on making a video series on shit my team can do, so basically even if I tried to start it, it'd never get finished because that's too much work! lol

I feel bad because I've fallen out of love with Marvel. I partially blame my inability to justify paying for XBLive with all the games coming up in the near future (Pokemon's going to consume my soul) and a PS4/new laptop in the works. I also blame the game somewhat because of the silly things in it with no chance of getting changed outside of something dramatic from Ono.

I really want to put out a "Baby's First Dante Pressure Strings" video just to keep my mind going on what could be done further with my team and my boy, but every time I've been reminded to do so, I either had no camera or wasn't playing Marvel enough even as a lab monster.

 

[Vice]

First time in a while I couldn't find a match immediately. I think people are on that GTA 5. I don't blame them though, the shit is good. But after playing it for 3 hours I needed a break.

Any Dante players have good xf combos? I'm looking for good damage without wasting much time.

Acid rain loops are good. A couple reps in XF3 will kill the bulk of the cast.

 

[Azure J]

Acid rain loops are good. A couple reps in XF3 will kill the bulk of the cast.

The three best tools Dante has to rack up damage in XF are (in order of how much damage they do fastest) Thunderbolt in Devil Trigger, Shot Loops and Twister xx Tempest (which while subject to HSD, can deal absurd amounts of damage while building half - 2/3rds a bar with each rep).

The only reason why I'd say Acid Rain isn't among these is because on any confirm you could go into Acid Rain from, the initial damage before the loops isn't high enough for them to kill immediately (thus requiring further readjustment) or you could just go into Shot Loops which are stupidly high damage (and also build lots of meter).

 

[Frantic]

I feel bad because I've fallen out of love with Marvel. I partially blame my inability to justify paying for XBLive with all the games coming up in the near future (Pokemon's going to consume my soul) and a PS4/new laptop in the works. I also blame the game somewhat because of the silly things in it with no chance of getting changed outside of something dramatic from Ono.

I really want to put out a "Baby's First Dante Pressure Strings" video just to keep my mind going on what could be done further with my team and my boy, but every time I've been reminded to do so, I either had no camera or wasn't playing Marvel enough even as a lab monster.

Salty's Dream Cast Casino > Marvel!

I still love to play Marvel, though. I haven't found any shocking new tech, but I still find stuff that's cool and either makes Dante's zoning better, or his pressure more difficult to deal with. Plus, there's nothing like completely dominating an opponent when I'm on my A game. I'd probably enjoy playing even more if I wasn't playing online, but eh... got no real choice at the moment. I still arrogantly believe I'm top 5 Dante when I'm playing at my best, and that I have potential to be the best if I keep working at it!

 

[Azure J]

Salty's Dream Cast Casino > Marvel!

I still love to play Marvel, though. I haven't found any shocking new tech, but I still find stuff that's cool and either makes Dante's zoning better, or his pressure more difficult to deal with. Plus, there's nothing like completely dominating an opponent when I'm on my A game. I'd probably enjoy playing even more if I wasn't playing online, but eh... got no real choice at the moment. I still arrogantly believe I'm top 5 Dante when I'm playing at my best, and that I have potential to be the best if I keep working at it!

Yeah, I feel all of this honestly. I enjoy it as "that one dumb game I put time into" and I'm definitely not against dabbling in it, but I think its days as my main/default game are over. I also love developing tech too much to have the game and not at least lab monster it out.

 

[GuardianE]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=679725

I am just going to leave this here for the DMC fans in this thread.

It MIGHT be happening and just like it's the motto of NeoGAF... I WILL BELIEVE!!!

I... I can't... I can't have hope... because it will be dashed away and leave me an emptier shell than I was before.

 

[Ghazi]

I... I can't... I can't have hope... because it will be dashed away and leave me an emptier shell than I was before.

Bisonyes.gif

That's exactly what Capcom wants to make happen.

 

[Dahbomb]

I... I can't... I can't have hope... because it will be dashed away and leave me an emptier shell than I was before.

Believe son. You won't feel alive unless you do.

 

[Dahbomb]

Going to be really busy for the next month or so starting Monday. I need this patch thing done by the weekend so I can move on without worrying about getting my votes in.

 

[Karsticles]

Going to be really busy for the next month or so starting Monday. I need this patch thing done by the weekend so I can move on without worrying about getting my votes in.

Push it forward, then. The votes are up for everyone to see.

 

[Dahbomb]

Push what forward? Where are the votes? I already gave mine on the characters we were doing, I thought we were waiting on other votes.

 

[Karsticles]

You should really bookmark this so you can know the voting situation:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah4zxqcb0_eodHVySXhJc1pUVXhJM1JmcGxmWEdldlE#gid=0

I updated Storm in the patch notes and deleted her entries. Please re-vote on Storm based on this version.

I am going to go ahead and vote on the next 10 so we can have everything on the table. Then we will start to wrap characters up 1 by 1. My "N" votes for a few characters such as MODOK and RR still stand, as I am opposed to them having unblockables. It doesn't make sense to remove some unblockables but not others, especially when Dahbomb made such a big deal about Flame Carpet no longer hitting low (which is a big nerf).

Taskmaster - Y
Thor - Y (I am sure I will be vetoed on Mighty Speech)
Trish - Y
Tron Bonne - Y
Vergil - Y
Viewtiful Joe - Y
Wesker - Y
Wolverine - Y
X-23 - Y (I wish we could give her better assists)
Zero - Y

 

[Dahbomb]

Are the changes in the OP the most current changes?

Jill - Y

Magneto - Y to the new changes but we forgot to remove that glitch which allowed him to guard cancel with his Repulsion.

Nemesis - Y

Ryu - Y

Sentinel - N, still no to hyper armor on launcher

She Hulk - Y

Shuma Gorath - Y

Spencer - Y although I still don't like the Bionic Arm nerf. You also need to adjust the change on Swing Wire appropriately to fix the infinite as I don't know how that would affect his combos.

Spider Man - N, the Web Throw nerf has to be implemented because he can get 8 of those in a row. Probably need to add hit stun timer to the move or something because it counts as a cinematic hyper so it stalls hit stun deterioration.

Storm - N to the new Float change, it's a big nerf to the move just so it can call assists. You won't be able to do stuff like Float, block then Float again. The change should be made on assist call (limiting them during Float) not on Float itself.

Strider - Y

Super Skrull - Y as long as you specify that Skrull Torch is not completely safe.

Taskmaster - N I know I suggested the change but I want the unblockable/overhead change reverted. We kept some unblockables in tact and Taskmaster's unblockable isn't even that good compared to the others. Some teams do use the unblockable as a way to kill the final character with XFC. I don't like the unblockable but some players may not like its removal and quite frankly the new changes don't make much sense either.

Thor - N to Mighty Speech as an assist.

Trish - N to minimum height change, it's an unnecessary change especially when she has gotten so many buffs already. I also think the Low Voltage recovery change needs a second look at just to brush up on the frame data and to make sure it's consistent.

Tron - Y

Vergil - Y although not sure why Lunar Phase needed buffing, the move functions as intended and if you want a bigger hit box then that's what the DT form is for.

Joe - Y

Wesker - Y

Wolverine - N, first of all you need to state clearly that Fatal Claw's damage has to be reduced significantly below Berserker's Barrage in order to make that move actually useful versus the many utility that Fatal Claw has (air OK, linkable etc). AT LEAST a 50K damage decrease down to around 300K damage (which is still decent for a LVL1). Secondly I think Wolverine needs a base damage decrease like Dorm does only his shouldn't be as high because unlike Dorm Wolverine has no other source of damage. His base damage should be reduced by 5%.

X-23 - Y

Zero - Y

 

[Karsticles]

Are the changes in the OP the most current changes?

They should be. Sometimes I miss stuff since I'm so busy; let me know if something looks outdated.

Edit: I updated your votes and implemented some of your suggestions. Lunar Phase was buffed because characters sometimes drop out during the move, and they really shouldn't. I also hate the "sort of" blockstring it causes against characters. It rewards stupid play sometimes.

I removed the safety from Skrull Torch since it has full invincibility now.

I added the Spider-man Web Throw nerf.

I don't follow your Magneto comment.

 

[Zissou]

RR - No for now- especially since everybody else voted no and he'll be one of those controversial characters we have to revisit at the end anyway.

Ryu - Y

Sent - N, against hyper armor on his launcher.

She-hulk - Y

Shuma - Y

Spencer - N for launcher changes and other stuff. Again, seems like a character we'll hash out later.

Spider-man - No, I need a bit more time to think about blocking during web glide. Everything else is fine. Did spider-man players weigh in on this?

Storm - Y

Strider - Y, but I still think bird bomb assist would be cool!

Super Skrull - No, against brutal pile dunker change.

 

[Dahbomb]

Yeah the Phoenix change is not updated with the hyper being ground only.

On the whole soft unblockable thing... MODOK, RR and Dorm aren't the same characters and have distinct differences (like MODOK having no fast low and RR being a low damage character with low damage from zoning). Flame Carpet also has more utility than just being an unblockable set up and because it persists for a while, you can get raw tag unblockables (like the FChamp classic of set Stalking Flare plus Flame Carpet with a Magneto tri dash mix up on incoming).

There would be no use for Boulder Trap if it didn't hit high, it would be relegated to just a combo extending move. In order to make it worthwhile you would have to buff it up some other way to make up for the unblockable loss.

MODOK falls somewhere in the middle on his unblockable where it does have some utility (OTG capable and decent as a zoning move) but you can't really use it for raw tag unblockable set ups because the low property on the snot doesn't last as long and is position specific (ie. the low is only at the edge of the snot not in the middle). If Web Zip isn't better than Zipline then there is not much point to using Spider Man over Spencer.

So it's not as simple as "why does this character not have it but the others do?".


On the Spider Man Web Glide change, I think he should be able to block during the portion where he is shooting out the web. At that point he hasn't moved so he should be able to block. Once he has committed to the glide (ie. actually moving) that's when he shouldn't be able to block. I think this would make the move still be pretty good/safe to use without being derpy.

 

[Karsticles]

I updated Sentinel and Phoenix. Please vote on Sentinel again.

Bird Bomb assist would be cool on Strider - I'm open to removing Gram H for it.

Boulder Trap will always be useful because it is RR's fastest trap (IIRC).

It doesn't matter how much utility Flame Carpet has. Either unblockables are good, or they are bad when it comes to game design. There's no middle ground here. You can set traps with RR and tag him out, too.

Web Zip is better than Zipline because Spider-man can attack cancel it. No one has ever seen Spider-man get thrown out of his Web Zip, but Spencer gets thrown out of his sometimes. It is significantly safer than Zipline even without being able to block.

Spider-man being able to block-cancel a move's startup sounds dangerous...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah4zxqcb0_eodHVySXhJc1pUVXhJM1JmcGxmWEdldlE#gid=0

 

[Dahbomb]

Y on both new Phoenix and Sentinel.

On Web Zip, it's supposed to be dangerous, he is Spider Man he is supposed to be highly mobile, safe and agile especially more than robot man Spencer. Spencer still has better and meatier limbs than Spider Man plus he has the Arm. There is very little reason to be using Spider Man over Spencer in the new patch especially with the differences in their support capability. That edge in mobility is something that Spider Man needs over Spencer. Right now Spider Man is a point only character competing with numerous other great air dash characters with better limbs, better zoning and better rushdown... that Web Glide being good is the only thing that makes someone even start to consider putting him on a slot, it's a character trait.

I say we meet half way on the Web Glide change, allow the shooting animation to be block cancelable but not after he starts moving forward.

I also don't agree about unblockables being either good or bad. Slow unblockables that are hard to set up, require assists or meter and don't lead into 3 characters dead are normally fine. Most unblockables that are on the ground can be avoided by stuff like CC which we are buffing. And utility of a move does matter... if a move can OTG, create a persisting hit box for quite some time on the screen, works as a combo extender, works as a block string ender AND it hits OTG to set up unblockable which is attached to a character that is already equipped to do proper mix ups both high low and right left while doing good damage than that unblockable is unneeded and unnecessary.

One thing I will say on RR and I am well aware of this is that he should not be able to set up the rocks with a raw tag set up on incoming. I have seen RR set up an unblockable into Spencer against an incoming which of course leads into dead characters and then if he builds enough meter he can unblockable again. If we can figure out how to prevent RR to not be able to set up raw tag incoming unblockables then that is acceptable to me.

For MODOK the unblockable nerf I can suggest is that the active frame time for the low property on the snot is lowered so that the unblockable window is lower.

Edit: Going to think more about how to change these unblockables especially RR.

 

[Dahbomb]

Ok so the RR fix is pretty easy to fix as far as not having it work against incoming characters/raw tag as well.

Basically have the trigger "hit box" of the trap be a bit higher than "opponent being on the ground and then it triggers". The trap if triggered while the enemy is just above the ground will make it so that the trap is no longer an unblockable as the opponent would be above the ground. This makes it so that if you chicken blocked just as he set up the lock down trap you would avoid the unblockable completely. Right now if he sets it up and makes you block even in mid air, once you land you that's when the trap will trigger and hit you with the unblockable. This also negates incoming unblockable set up as characters come in from the air and he can't just set the trap in advance as it will trigger while the opponent is still in the air.

 

[Karsticles]

Can Spider-man even block during the startup frames of Web Glide right now?

I am still a no on the RR and MODOK stuff. Why not just make MODOK's goo not hit low?

Unblockables are bad because 1-player matches are boring.

 

[Vice]

IIRC MODOk only has one low, the goo.

 

[Zissou]

IIRC MODOk only has one low, the goo.

Cr.M hits low, no?

ninja edit: err... I meant cr.H!

 

[Dahbomb]

Can Spider-man even block during the startup frames of Web Glide right now?

I am still a no on the RR and MODOK stuff. Why not just make MODOK's goo not hit low?

Unblockables are bad because 1-player matches are boring.

It's not "1 player matches" because with better CCs you can get out of them as they are all grounded set ups unlike a FB or a Viper unblockable which is a true 1 player set up.

Besides the change I suggested for RR at least completely removes the 1 player aspect of the move will still making it useful for some mix ups and set ups.

I think these moves should just be fixed so that if you guess right on like a tech roll in advance you get out of them. Even if you remove unblockables of RR, he is going to open you up under Cold Shots anyway same logic for Viper and her unblockable. What shouldn't happen is that RR can 1) set up the trap on incoming then raw tag and 2) guarantee the unblockable on you after any tech rolls.

Between MODOK and RR though one of the characters should retain it just for the uniqueness of it. It would make them worthwhile picks on a team among all the other monsters in the game now especially on point as it becomes insanely hard to justify RR on point without his dirty mix ups.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

It's not likely either character would be played any more than they are now if they kept their unblockables. RR unblockables are one of the only reasons I even play him. Modok's isn't exactly easy to set up.....it is quite satisfying when you land it though.

 

[Dahbomb]

And in the case of MODOK his mix ups aren't that potent if you know the match up. He is basically like Ryu in his mix ups... he has a bunch of fast highs but one slow low that can be reacted to only because he has a slow low he is much easier to up back against. He has a good throw game though but in terms of high low its not all that cracked up to be. Not comparable to RR or even an assisted Dorm.

Here's what it boils down to... if MODOK gets his unblockable taken away he needs a faster low to make up for it. If RR gets his unblockable taken away then he needs better damage. Without these changes the two characters are dropping in tier list relative to other characters despite the other buffs they are getting.