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[Frantic]

Also, giving Magneto 3 recovery on Magnetic Blast when he lands is fucking with his mobility, and he won't be able to use it as a mid-screen zoning tool. That's far worse than decreasing the blockstun. He needs to flow.

3 frames is nothing. Hammer has 5 frames of ground recovery, and I barely even notice it(outside of the times when it whiffs and I get clipped). That was actually the number FGTV settled on for their list, so I think it's fine.

I'm curious how you think the SH blockstring could be changed.

Off the top of my head? Decrease the startup of Upper Slash so you can X-Factor cancel the launch and punish easier(canceling the Upper Slash means you can be snapped, although no one actually does that yet), and the Upper Slash becomes a less potent frametrap tool; would also help with chicken blocking so you can actually punish instead of getting bopped. Decrease the blockstun of Upper Slash so that Judgment Cut/Round Trip are less viable, as characters are more capable of dashing up and punishing in between. Decrease the distance Judgment Cut/Round Trip cause Vergil to step back, so that normals that are already fast enough to come out in between actually reach. Any of those would help make it less advantageous on block(because that's what it is at the moment) without removing the ability to actually keep it safe.

 

[Karsticles]

Why not make it so he can only do it a limited number of times? Like SHSH and that's it.

EDIT: On second thought, I generally don't see it go past 4 hits.....

If they spam it, it's unsafe since Vergil can't special cancel his normals.

3 frames is nothing. Hammer has 5 frames of ground recovery, and I barely even notice it(outside of the times when it whiffs and I get clipped). That was actually the number FGTV settled on for their list, so I think it's fine.

Off the top of my head? Decrease the startup of Upper Slash so you can X-Factor cancel the launch and punish easier(canceling the Upper Slash means you can be snapped, although no one actually does that yet), and the Upper Slash becomes a less potent frametrap tool; would also help with chicken blocking so you can actually punish instead of getting bopped. Decrease the blockstun of Upper Slash so that Judgment Cut/Round Trip are less viable, as characters are more capable of dashing up and punishing in between. Decrease the distance Judgment Cut/Round Trip cause Vergil to step back, so that normals that are already fast enough to come out in between actually reach. Any of those would help make it less advantageous on block(because that's what it is at the moment) without removing the ability to actually keep it safe.

Dante does not move like Magneto does. 3 frames is a lot for him. Fluidity is a huge part of him as a character.

 

[Frantic]

Dante does not move like Magneto does. 3 frames is a lot for him. Fluidity is a huge part of him as a character.

No, but what I'm saying is that the 5 frames of landing recovery Hammer has no discernible time between landing and being able to move again. 3 frames would not be noticeable for Magneto outside of catching him with an attack as he lands.

 

[Karsticles]

No, but what I'm saying is that the 5 frames of landing recovery Hammer has no discernible time between landing and being able to move again. 3 frames would not be noticeable for Magneto outside of catching him with an attack as he lands.

Dante is slow, though.

It doesn't matter - I'm not on the Magnetic Blast nerf crew. Talk it out with Zissou and Dahbomb. To me, a huge part of the move is Magnetic Blast followed by a tridash mix-up, and you're messing with that, too.

 

[Karsticles]

OMG Roachking just comboed off of a TAC counter with Dark Phoenix. About time we saw it happen!

 

[Frantic]

Dante is slow, though.

Not really. His normals or specials might be slow, but his movement is really quick and he's constantly on the move. People just suck with Dante.

It doesn't matter - I'm not on the Magnetic Blast nerf crew. Talk it out with Zissou and Dahbomb.

Dahbomb's already more or less agreed to it, so just gotta wait for Zissou.

To me, a huge part of the move is Magnetic Blast followed by a tridash mix-up, and you're messing with that, too.

That's part of the point. Why should Magneto, who has plenty of other options to set up tridash mixups, be capable of shooting out a projectile - one that's very strong in the neutral - that allows him to land a tridash mixup?

 

[Dahbomb]

OMG Roachking just comboed off of a TAC counter with Dark Phoenix. About time we saw it happen!

Yeah that was nuts!

 

[Karsticles]

That's part of the point. Why should Magneto, who has plenty of other options to set up tridash mixups, be capable of shooting out a projectile - one that's very strong in the neutral - that allows him to land a tridash mixup?

You can always pushblock it.

Also, adding recovery time could potentially mess with his combos.

 

[Dahbomb]

To me, a huge part of the move is Magnetic Blast followed by a tridash mix-up, and you're messing with that, too.

That's the main reason why that move should be nerfed!

If you are worried about combos then just add 3 more frames of hit stun to Mag Blast. That will offset the recovery nerf.

 

[Frantic]

You can always pushblock it.

Pushblocking can be negated by a dash on landing. Pushblocking is not an 'end-all' to offense, especially someone like Magneto who's so fast.

Also, adding recovery time could potentially mess with his combos.

It would only potentially affect combos at the more extreme levels of hitstun.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

I'm sad I haven't really kept up with the patch talk, cause this shit provides me with some good laughs.

Magnetic blast is such a pain in the ass for Chris. I usually just spam fire grenades and take the mag blast to the face to protect myself.
It's shitty to deal with for Spencer too, but fortunately whenever I play Spencer I'm usually playing Sentinel too, so I just do some well timed THC's and tell Magneto to fuck off.

That being said, I still wouldn't nerf magnetic blast........I certainly wouldn't be against it though.

 

[Karsticles]

That's the main reason why that move should be nerfed!

If you are worried about combos then just add 3 more frames of hit stun to Mag Blast. That will offset the recovery nerf.

More hitstun doesn't matter if your opponent touches the ground thanks to your 3 additional frames of recovery.

 

[Dahbomb]

More hitstun doesn't matter if your opponent touches the ground thanks to your 3 additional frames of recovery.

The opponent is not going to hit the ground even with the 3 frames. And even then that would only affect combos at near max hit stun... where most Magneto players don't even use Mag Blasts they use Hyper Grav loops.

Pushblocking can be negated by a dash on landing. Pushblocking is not an 'end-all' to offense, especially someone like Magneto who's so fast.

This right here. Most of the time you try to push block Mag Blasts while jumping he just negates it then grabs you or negates it and mixes you up anyway. The recovery on the move is pretty much nonsense all around.

 

[Karsticles]

The opponent is not going to hit the ground even with the 3 frames. And even then that would only affect combos at near max hit stun... where most Magneto players don't even use Mag Blasts they use Hyper Grav loops.

I'm talking about Magnetic Blast hitting opponents in the air, near the ground, where Magneto can land and pick them up with s.L, but him not being able to do that sometimes now due to the recovery. This is a bad change; the blockstun adjustment is the better way to go. Don't fuck with combos and hitconfirms unless you have to.

 

[Dahbomb]

I'm talking about Magnetic Blast hitting opponents in the air, near the ground, where Magneto can land and pick them up with s.L, but him not being able to do that sometimes now due to the recovery. This is a bad change; the blockstun adjustment is the better way to go. Don't fuck with combos and hitconfirms unless you have to.

Most Magnetic Blast hit confirms are higher than that space where the 3 frame recovery wouldn't even matter. If Mag Blast hits a grounded opponent then the recovery doesn't even matter.

If before you could hit someone with a Mag Blast into st.L... now you would still be able to do that only with 3 frame more recovery you will have to do it with cr.L instead of st.L as they would be a bit lower. If they are higher than that you would be able to get st.L in.

You already know me... I have never suggested a change on a character that messes up with combos and hit confirms unless I absolutely had to (examples included Zero's Raikousen change or Foot Dive change). IMO a Magnetic Blast nerf is more important than potential changes in his combos/confirms (which would be minor at worst). It is just that good of a tool, it simply does too much for the amount of safety it has.

 

[Karsticles]

Most Magnetic Blast hit confirms are higher than that space where the 3 frame recovery wouldn't even matter. If Mag Blast hits a grounded opponent then the recovery doesn't even matter.

If before you could hit someone with a Mag Blast into st.L... now you would still be able to do that only with 3 frame more recovery you will have to do it with cr.L instead of st.L as they would be a bit lower. If they are higher than that you would be able to get st.L in.

You already know me... I have never suggested a change on a character that messes up with combos and hit confirms unless I absolutely had to (examples included Zero's Raikousen change or Foot Dive change). IMO a Magnetic Blast nerf is more important than potential changes in his combos/confirms (which would be minor at worst). It is just that good of a tool, it simply does too much for the amount of safety it has.

I highlighted the key word. Don't fuck with hit confirms. I'll even support reducing Magnetic Blast to +15 on block if you'll drop the recovery idea.

 

[Dahbomb]

You do realize we did completely destroy a ton of Zero's hit confirms with the Buster nerfs and Raikousen nerfs right? In comparison this change is miniscule at best.

Hell we even reduced hit stun on Morrigan's Shell Kick, you don't think that's not going to affect her confirms/combos?

 

[Karsticles]

You do realize we did completely destroy a ton of Zero's hit confirms with the Buster nerfs and Raikousen nerfs right? In comparison this change is miniscule at best.

Hell we even reduced hit stun on Morrigan's Shell Kick, you don't think that's not going to affect her confirms/combos?

No we did not. We reduced Morrigan's minimum hitstun, not the hitstun. Huge difference. That change was to get rid of her infinite. j.S needs its current hitstun or else it gets ground thrown every time.

We didn't change anything with the Buster shot that would affect Zero's hit confirms. Ditto for Raikousen.

 

[Dahbomb]

We didn't change anything with the Buster shot that would affect Zero's hit confirms. Ditto for Raikousen.

Raikousen not being soft knockdown while Buster having increased start up 100% changes his hit confirms. He doesn't get 3/4th screen confirms straight across or diagonally up. It also affects some of his combos where he does really high Raikousen in the corner then falls down with the opponent which wouldn't work with no soft knockdown. There are particular confirms with Zero after Sogenmu where he could do with Buster but he probably can't do it anymore because of increased start up on Buster.

It also depends on how much we are changing Morrigan's minimum hit stun. You didn't specify exactly so if it's a considerable hit stun nerf that definitely messes up her confirms and combos. I know why you put that change in... it was to remove her infinite but we don't know how much the hit stun has to be changed before she stops getting that infinite. The point of change could be the point where it starts affecting her normal confirms and combos.

This is the sort of thing that Capcom has to figure it out themselves. You can just say "Reduce block stun slightly, reduce ground recovery slightly but his combos/hit confirms are unaffected". Pretty much what you said for Zero's Lightning Loop... Soft knockdown was removed but hit stun would remain at a value that he could still do the combo. Now we don't know what that value is without testing so it's Capcom's to determine what value would be appropriate for combo purposes.

 

[Karsticles]

Raikousen not being soft knockdown while Buster having increased start up 100% changes his hit confirms. He doesn't get 3/4th screen confirms straight across or diagonally up. It also affects some of his combos where he does really high Raikousen in the corner then falls down with the opponent which wouldn't work with no soft knockdown.

It also depends on how much we are changing Morrigan's minimum hit stun. You didn't specify exactly so if it's a considerable hit stun nerf that definitely messes up her confirms and combos. I know why you put that change in... it was to remove her infinite but we don't know how much the hit stun has to be changed before she stops getting that infinite. The point of change could be the point where it starts affecting her normal confirms and combos.

Buster having increased startup does not change his hit confirms. Anything he could hit confirm off of before he can do now. Raikousen is no longer a soft knockdown to prevent certain lengthy combo extensions. It still has high hitstun, and the patch notes will expand upon this. I know it affects his combos; that was the point of the change. Zero's hit confirms off of superjump height Raikousen are still intact, because he has always needed to buster cancel the Raikousen to get combos; nothing has changed in that regard.

And MINIMUM hitstun refers to the hitstun after hit stun deterioration has been going on for a while. It's not possible for it to affect her hit confirms because HSD has not kicked in yet.

You are doing something very different to Magneto if you add recovery on to Magnetic Blast.

 

[Dahbomb]

Zero's hit confirms at super jump height are still in tact?

How the hell is that even possible with no soft knockdown?

I don't think you know what I am talking about here. I am talking about confirms where Zero would snipe you across the screen with Lightning, do Buster (which would actually miss but it's to cancel the recovery) and then do another Lightning or do a teleport down and then dash up to grab you as you are falling. You are telling me that opponent will be free falling from the sky all the way to the ground even without a soft knockdown property? Removing soft knockdown from Lightning UNDENIABLY affects Zero's combos and confirms.

As far as confirms with Buster... Zero usually doing pressure ending with his QCF move at mid screenish distance then use Sogenmu into Buster to confirm off of it. If the start up is increased he wouldn't have that as it is a fairly tight link as it is.

 

[Karsticles]

Zero's hit confirms at super jump height are still in tact?

How the hell is that even possible?

I told you, they're all based on the buster cancel, which has not had its hitstun changed. Raikousen behind an opponent at superjump height has never led to full combos for Zero. He has always needed to buster cancel the Raikousen. He can still do that, so the hit confirm is unchanged. The buster shot still has soft knockdown.

I don't think you know what I am talking about here. I am talking about confirms where Zero would snipe you across the screen with Lightning, do Buster (which would actually miss but it's to cancel the recovery) and then do another Lightning or do a teleport down and then dash up to grab you as you are falling. You are telling me that opponent will be free falling from the sky all the way to the ground even without a soft knockdown property? Removing soft knockdown from Lightning UNDENIABLY affects Zero's combos and confirms.

As far as confirms with Buster... Zero usually doing pressure ending with his QCF move at mid screenish distance then use Sogenmu into Buster to confirm off of it. If the start up is increased he wouldn't have that as it is a fairly tight link as it is.

It's more accurate to say that you didn't really tell me you were talking about that.

Yes, this was changed, but that's because we all agree that Raikousen x Buster creating lightning is a glitch. It's like saying we're nerfing Vergil's combos because we're fixing the Round Trip glitch. Yeah, technically we are, but it's important to fix these glitches. Players rarely even use the Raikousen x Buster anyway because it's almost impossible to convert off of; Flocker didn't use it in the neutral once during his set today.

The buster confirm off of Sougenmu is a borderline bug fix; we removed the ability to charge specials during cinematic screens. This is a system-wide change.

This is not the same as specifically targetting a character and screwing his hit confirms up.

Like I said, change the blockstun to +15 and I will support it. I'd rather not change the ground recovery; it's unnecessary.

 

[Dahbomb]

I told you, they're all based on the buster cancel, which has not had its hitstun changed. Raikousen behind an opponent at superjump height has never led to full combos for Zero. He has always needed to buster cancel the Raikousen. He can still do that, so the hit confirm is unchanged. The buster shot still has soft knockdown.

Read my edited post. I am not talking about the same hit confirm that you are.

Like I said, change the blockstun to +15 and I will support it. I'd rather not change the ground recovery; it's unnecessary.

The block stun has to change more than 15 to be "meaningful" otherwise it's just another list on the sheet. We just differ on the recovery change being a necessary change. This has to be decided on a vote obviously.

 

[Frantic]

Reducing minimum hitstun on Shell Kick won't remove the infinite, btw. The infinite is done while the other character is considered in the 'launch' state, so Shell Kick is causing a hard-knockdown - it's just never entering hard knockdown because you're connecting Shadow Blade before they hit the ground. You'd have to reduce Shadow Blade's minimum hitstun so Shell Kick can no longer connect at max hitstun.

As for Magneto, 3 frames of recovery is not enough to screw with any hit confirms. The only time it'd be a problem is if they were literally pixels off the ground, and you can't even convert off of those anyways. Genuine hitconfirms are untouched. In general, you can wait before hit confirming off Magnetic Blast, so 3 frames just forces you to act 3 frames quicker.

 

[Dahbomb]

Yeah most combos with Magnetic Blasts are already so high in their hit stun that Magneto players actually have to dash up and not do their combo/confirms early.

Like I said this change to his combos and confirms is miniscule at best.

Interesting tidbit about the Morrigan infinite, I didn't know that. Yeah if what you are saying is true, the Shell Kick change wouldn't do anything.

 

[Karsticles]

Read my edited post. I am not talking about the same hit confirm that you are.

The block stun has to change more than 15 to be "meaningful" otherwise it's just another list on the sheet. We just differ on the recovery change being a necessary change. This has to be decided on a vote obviously.

Yeah, it has to go down to +12 to be meaningful, you said. Except you've also been arguing that a 3 frame difference doesn't matter...

Reducing minimum hitstun on Shell Kick won't remove the infinite, btw. The infinite is done while the other character is considered in the 'launch' state, so Shell Kick is causing a hard-knockdown - it's just never entering hard knockdown because you're connecting Shadow Blade before they hit the ground. You'd have to reduce Shadow Blade's minimum hitstun so Shell Kick can no longer connect at max hitstun.

*forehead slap* You're right. How can we fix this, then? Reducing Shadow Blade's minimum hitstun is extremely dangerous; we would need to improve Finishing Shower's startup by whatever we reduce Shadow Blade's minimum hitstun by at the very least. I am going to remove the j.S hitstun change since it's utterly pointless. Good catch.

As for Magneto, 3 frames of recovery is not enough to screw with any hit confirms. The only time it'd be a problem is if they were literally pixels off the ground, and you can't even convert off of those anyways. Genuine hitconfirms are untouched. In general, you can wait before hit confirming off Magnetic Blast, so 3 frames just forces you to act 3 frames quicker.

If 3 frames isn't a big deal, then why does Dahbomb say +15 isn't even worth listing as a change, but +12 is acceptable? I pose this question to Dahbomb as well, since he has said 3 frames is fine for the recovery, but not the blockstun.

I'd like to know why 3 frames of recovery is absolutely necessary over reducing the frame advantage more, as well. Why do we need to mess with his hit confirms?

 

[Dahbomb]

Because the difference between +15 and +12 without a recovery change is that one value puts the chicken blocker at good frame numbers and the other does not. With the recovery change AND +15 on block that puts it at trip guardable territory as well. +15 with 3 less recovery is a more meaningful change than +12 on block without a recovery change because Magneto is still going to get semi guard breaks and still going to be easily be able to negate push block with +12/no recovery change. It also makes a whiffed Magnetic Blast actually punishable although still extremely tight.

I don't WANT to mess with his confirms and combos obviously.

 

[Frantic]

*forehead slap* You're right. How can we fix this, then? Reducing Shadow Blade's minimum hitstun is extremely dangerous; we would need to improve Finishing Shower's startup by whatever we reduce Shadow Blade's minimum hitstun by at the very least. I am going to remove the j.S hitstun change since it's utterly pointless. Good catch.

Doesn't Shell Kick have grounded recovery frames? If I remember reading Chrisis right, he said you could special cancel the recovery frames, hence the loop. Maybe remove that ability so they'll always hit the ground?


I was doing some tests with Magneto, and doing j.LHS > Magnetic Blast L against Sentinel and he can connect Disruptor M(12 frame startup) afterwards. Sent is extremely close to touching the ground, so hitconfirms are not a problem. Combos aren't much problem either(I tested by waiting a little before doing anything) except at the extreme hitstun levels where Hyper Grav loops are more optimal anyways. All 3 frames of recovery really does is ensures that he can be punished for a misplaced Magnetic Blast instead of blocking(or, as I've had happen, mashing throw) the moment he touches the ground.

 

[Karsticles]

Because the difference between +15 and +12 without a recovery change is that one value puts the chicken blocker at good frame numbers and the other does not. With the recovery change AND +15 on block that puts it at trip guardable territory as well. +15 with 3 less recovery is a more meaningful change than +12 on block without a recovery change because Magneto is still going to get semi guard breaks and still going to be easily be able to negate push block with +12/no recovery change. It also makes a whiffed Magnetic Blast actually punishable although still extremely tight.

I don't WANT to mess with his confirms and combos obviously.

I don't think it's obvious at all. I don't even see why Magnetic Blast should be trip guardable. This is not a dive kick, it's a projectile.

Doesn't Shell Kick have grounded recovery frames? If I remember reading Chrisis right, he said you could special cancel the recovery frames, hence the loop. Maybe remove that ability so they'll always hit the ground?

It's either that or she just lands a few frames faster than the opponent. We don't know for sure, so I'm hesitant to put that in.

I was doing some tests with Magneto, and doing j.LHS > Magnetic Blast L against Sentinel and he can connect Disruptor M(12 frame startup) afterwards. Sent is extremely close to touching the ground, so hitconfirms are not a problem. Combos aren't much problem either(I tested by waiting a little before doing anything) except at the extreme hitstun levels where Hyper Grav loops are more optimal anyways. All 3 frames of recovery really does is ensures that he can be punished for a misplaced Magnetic Blast instead of blocking(or, as I've had happen, mashing throw) the moment he touches the ground.

I feel like there are two issues at play here:
1) The ability for Magneto to get mix-ups off of Magnetic Blast due to its high frame advantage on block.
2) The ability for Magneto to be safe after throwing Magnetic Blast when he lands.

I think that if you address both of these, you will end up going too far. The Sentinel test is nice, but you would need to test this at a variety of Magneto trajectories against a variety of opponents to know the change is fine.

Magnetic Blast hit confirms aren't just in the opponent's face. Sometimes Magneto barely catches opponents with a slide afterward.

 

[Dahbomb]

Mag Blast is one of the safest moves in the game, a 3 frame recovery is diddly squat in terms of practically trying to whiff punish that move low to the ground. In fact I can't think of a situation where you would be able to punish him aside from instant hypers like SoV/Gimlet even on whiff. He would have to miss Mag Blasts completely and land right next to you which in most cases SHOULD be a punish because of how poorly he placed the Mag Blast.

Being able to set up a mix up off of that move is ridiculous anyway but at +15 he can still set it up but the opponent would have enough time to up back. At +22 if you don't push block the mix up is guaranteed on the ground but at +15 that's just enough time to up back possibly. I think Magneto's tri dash is 19-20 frames at its fastest so that's why the value has to be below 19 frames for the time it takes for him to mix you up versus the time that you can potentially up back. The main reason for the 3 frame recovery is also so that he doesn't get easy push block negation and guard breaks off of the moves either.

I don't even see why Magnetic Blast should be trip guardable. This is not a dive kick, it's a projectile.

Because it's a powerful approach and offensive option with almost no answer to it defensively. It doesn't matter what it is, it's the potency of the move and how it's used in the neutral that matters.

 

[Karsticles]

Mag Blast is one of the safest moves in the game, a 3 frame recovery is diddly squat in terms of practically trying to whiff punish that move low to the ground. In fact I can't think of a situation where you would be able to punish him aside from instant hypers like SoV/Gimlet even on whiff. He would have to miss Mag Blasts completely and land right next to you which in most cases SHOULD be a punish because of how poorly he placed the Mag Blast.

Then why bother with the change if it will almost never actually change the outcome?

Being able to set up a mix up off of that move is ridiculous anyway but at +15 he can still set it up but the opponent would have enough time to up back. At +22 if you don't push block the mix up is guaranteed on the ground but at +15 that's just enough time to up back possibly. I think Magneto's tri dash is 19-20 frames at its fastest so that's why the value has to be below 19 frames for the time it takes for him to mix you up versus the time that you can potentially up back. The main reason for the 3 frame recovery is also so that he doesn't get easy push block negation and guard breaks off of the moves either.

I am more accepting of this argument, and that is why I would sign on to a change to +15 on block.

Because it's a powerful approach and offensive option with almost no answer to it defensively. It doesn't matter what it is, it's the potency of the move and how it's used in the neutral that matters.

Let me rephrase: Magnetic Blast is used at the mid-screen to approach. If you make it punishable through chicken blocking, it will be too easy to punish because it's easy to chicken block. Dive kicks are harder to chicken block because they are used right next to you.

 

[Dahbomb]

At +15 it won't be punishable by chicken block. It has to be below 12 frames for it to be punishable by chicken block.

I am more accepting of this argument, and that is why I would sign on to a change to +15 on block.

That argument is talking about +15 on block WITH a 3 frame recovery. So you are basically agreeing with a +15 on block, 3 frame recovery nerf.

Then why bother with the change if it will almost never actually change the outcome?

Because the change to recovery is about 3 things mainly:

1) Magneto getting push block negation and guard breaks off of push blocked Magnetic Blasts
2) Magneto can't be trip guarded against when using Magnetic Blasts
3) Magneto getting a completely tri dash mix ups off of a blocked Magnetic Blast on the ground

2 and 3 can be changed by block stun reduction but 1 can't be. All of your arguments against Magnetic Blasts previously were "well the advantage on block doesn't matter because you can push block it" but when you push block it while approaching Magneto that is risk of being guard broken/thrown or if you don't get guard broken he can still easily negate push block and get in to apply pressure. If you don't push block it he gets a free mix up. It's a poor situation either way.

 

[Karsticles]

At +15 it won't be punishable by chicken block. It has to be below 12 frames for it to be punishable by chicken block.


That argument is talking about +15 on block WITH a 3 frame recovery. So you are basically agreeing with a +15 on block, 3 frame recovery nerf.

I mean +15 and 3 frames of recovery.

And I meant this argument:

Being able to set up a mix up off of that move is ridiculous

Mea culpa.

 

[Dahbomb]

So you are agreeing then?

 

[Karsticles]

So you are agreeing then?

You can change the mix-up without adding recovery, so no. I have already said that I agree to reduce the frame advantage.

 

[Dahbomb]

You can change the mix-up without adding recovery, so no. I have already said that I agree to reduce the frame advantage.

Yeah but you don't do anything about his advance guard negation, pressure and guard breaking ability off of the move.

 

[Karsticles]

Yeah but you don't do anything about his advance guard negation, pressure and guard breaking ability off of the move.

3 frames of recovery won't fix those either except for the pressure, and he should get pressure off of a successful hit. Otherwise the move is not particularly useful. We fixed guard breaks universally unless you just mean air grabbing after Magnetic Blast (techable). In which case, I don't see why that is a problem, especially since Magneto can already do this with his tridash j.H and j.S and players do so frequently.

 

[Dahbomb]

Because j.S and j.H don't set up tri dash pressure by themselves and they are easier to punish on whiff because they aren't protecting Magneto with a 5 point durable projectile.

He would still get pressure off of the 3 frame recovery.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Not a fan of letting other people play eh?

:3

Even in the air?

Yeah, but it's not especially useful in Ultimate.

 

[Karsticles]

Because j.S and j.H don't set up tri dash pressure by themselves and they are easier to punish on whiff because they aren't protecting Magneto with a 5 point durable projectile.

He would still get pressure off of the 3 frame recovery.

Is this really, really a problem?

 

["God's Beard!"]

Being the best character in the game doesn't mean you need nerfs if nothing you do is broken. Magneto's strong. But he's not stupid.

 

[Dahbomb]

Is this really, really a problem?

It's a huge problem both when used offensively and especially when used defensively. That move alone shits on more than half of the cast.

I am almost never a proponent of nerfs and I have opposed almost every nerf that was put on there, only approving those that are generally OP. I honestly do feel that Mag Blast is a problem and a bit too good especially in this patch which will be lacking strong Vergil/Zero/Viper (Mag Blasts already shit super hard on Viper).

Basically when I think of Magneto and why he is top 5, these elements about him strike me as being insanely good:

1) Mobility (not being changed)
2) Meter build and combos (being nerfed slightly with the Grav change)
3) Throw game (not being changed)
4) Magnetic Blast (debating the change)
5) Great normals (not being changed)
6) Great mix ups (not being changed)

So when we greatly nerf 4 out of the 5 characters while making very slight changes to Magneto, it pretty much confirms him as the undeniable best. His Mag Blasts made sense in an environment that was filled with OP stuff but when you remove most of that other stuff, Mag Blast will simply stand out more. I mean if we are nerfing stuff like Bold Cancel then there is more urgency to nerf Mag Blasts.

Being the best character in the game doesn't mean you need nerfs if nothing you do is broken. Magneto's strong. But he's not stupid.

And that's a legitimate statement but that only applies if your best character in the game actually has some legitimate weaknesses. Magneto has some of the fewest cons in the game going for him.

 

[Zissou]

I vote yes on Frantic's suggested change- sorry for the wait. I'm collecting my thoughts on the next ten characters and will vote on them soon.

Also, as far as random past characters that we haven't decided on yet, I'm still thinking about how I want to see Frank changed. I was thinking that lowering invincibility on survival techniques would help since characters with other invincible hypers could use them to deal with paddlesaw spam, but it would leave a lot of characters out in the cold who don't have such an option. What do you guys think of slightly nerfing the paddlesaw hitboxes?

 

[Karsticles]

I vote yes on Frantic's suggested change- sorry for the wait. I'm collecting my thoughts on the next ten characters and will vote on them soon.

Also, as far as random past characters that we haven't decided on yet, I'm still thinking about how I want to see Frank changed. I was thinking that lowering invincibility on survival techniques would help since characters with other invincible hypers could use them to deal with paddlesaw spam, but it would leave a lot of characters out in the cold who don't have such an option. What do you guys think of slightly nerfing the paddlesaw hitboxes?

Definitely no on nerfing their hitboxes. I would consider dropping his invincibility so he can be zoned more effectively. Right now, he is invincible enough that he can pass through a full-screen Stalking Flare by dash x roll x survival techniques.

And with a sad face, I add the Magnetic Blast change to Magneto's list; feel free to vote on the new version.

 

[Zissou]

Why are you opposed to nerfing the hitboxes? Even if zoning him were to be more viable, non-zoners would still have zero options.

 

[Karsticles]

Why are you opposed to nerfing the hitboxes? Even if zoning him were to be more viable, non-zoners would still have zero options.

Air throws are good against Frank. The paddlesaws are on j.M, you just need to be patient and wait for your moment. I have success with this when using Firebrand, and I also often dash up to him as he jumps and just do s.L to anti-air him. There are only a handful of characters completely helpless to Frank West, and I think it's better to look at their toolset, which is probably pretty weak in general, rather than changing the hitboxes on those paddlesaws.

 

[Dahbomb]

Next on the agenda is Storm.

I gave my suggestion on Typhoons.

Also chain cr.L/st.L into cr.H/st.H.

Still no to double dash.

 

[Karsticles]

Next on the agenda is Storm.

I gave my suggestion on Typhoons.

Also chain cr.L/st.L into cr.H/st.H.

Still no to double dash.

I will gladly trade double air dash for Float.

What were your Typhoon suggestions? I remember you saying you would type them out, but I never saw them.

Does c.L really not chain successfully into c.H or s.H? I know it doesn't chain into c.H (learned this when I picked her two weeks ago, haha).

 

[Dahbomb]

Her st.L doesn't chain into st.H, Fanatiq specifically demonstrated this. It seemed like it should be able to chain, it's off by like 1-2 frames at best. Just write out that cr./st.L should be able to chain into cr.H/st.H.

We can debate assist call with Float. Double dash is 100% no though. At least we have a basis for assist call, double dash is only available on Dante as an install hyper. She already has absurd mix ups, this would make her superior to even Magneto.

My Typhoon change is the following:

L/M versions: Improved start up, improved recovery, go all the way up at super jump height, do not OTG

H version: Same frame data, go all the way up at super jump height, OTGs and has tracking capability

H version is the assist.


Basically the problem is that improving start up and recovery is going to guarantee an infinite. She has an infinite in LVL2 XF with Typhoons and it's just relaunch with Typhoon over and over again. The reason she has an infinite with Typhoon is because Typhoon causes enough hit stun to follow up with a launcher. If you are improving with the recovery and start up, she will ALWAYS be able to follow up OTG in corner with Typhoon and always follow it up with a launcher. She would just have Typhoon, st.S, j.S, Typhoon etc.

Having L/M versions be faster but not OTG capable means you can still use the move for neutral game and zoning but it won't affect her combos. H version tracks so that she can combo with it but H version is only used for full screen zoning because it's so super slow. H version would just be the assist and it functions as the point version. It would be slow but the huge hit box, hit stun and tracking/OTG capabiltiy will still make it very useful.

 

[Karsticles]

Where are these L and M versions hitting?

Edit: Also, I'm not entirely sure this would lead to infinites. Dormammu doesn't have time to s.S, sj.S, Purification at high HSD. The opponent recovers before Purification comes out. We gave Typhoon roughly the same startup, so I'm not sure we should be worried. If she has an X-Factor infinite, I think that's okay; plenty of characters have them, and better ones at that.