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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT4| Nothing Stops This Patch!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
JeTmAn81
Member
So I ran into some trouble against a Nova team again. The guy was playing Nova/Spencer/Strange (the Nemo) and then Nova/Frank/Hawkeye. I was playing Wesker/Dante/Strider and Magneto/Doom/Vergil at different times.
I just don't know what to do against Nova. It seems like every button hits everything around him and converts into a huge combo. I can't stop him advancing under the cover of Bolts of Balthakk, and once he was in the guy was mixing me up pretty well. As the matches went, if his Nova got the first hit that was pretty much it. He'd either kill my first character or snap in my dark anchor character and put me into a situation where I'd have to eat the mixup, no escape even with a double jump (Gravimetric Pulse, Energy Javelin, Bolts, jab jab jab). I didn't seem to be able to X-Factor guard cancel and throw at all. He would air throw me at about half a pixel distance off the ground, and even though I was trying to throw/tech throws constantly, it was almost always me getting thrown and never doing the throwing.
My Wesker got beat by Bolts, can't really approach or teleport through when that's going. Dante's Weasel Shot was useless because he'd usually start at full screen before airdashing in with Bolts, and Weasel Shot doesn't go that far. Occasionally I'd hit him with gunshot, teleport, call Strider, but most of the time he'd block correctly. And if I get hit once by him it's pretty much over, in spite of him dropping his raw tag Strange combos fairly frequently.
The Magneto team fared a bit better in some respects. I've gotten better at dashing up, flying, plink dashing away while calling assists which helps me keep out of the Bolts/Frank mixups. But mostly it was just the relentless pressure from Nova that I couldn't seem to get away from no matter how hard I tried. And Hawkeye is a really bad matchup for everyone but Vergil on that team. I wasn't able to snap him in so Dark Hawkeye gave me a lot of trouble. On his Frank team, one hit from Nova always gave him level 4 Frank, sometimes level 5. Though I didn't feel like I had that much trouble against Frank since he didn't usually kill my character and force me to eat an incoming mixup. Also, no Jam Session for Frank.
I came away losing 30-7 in the set and not really feeling like I'd learned much. I just felt helpless, with no idea what kind of strategic approach I should take to circumvent his offense.
I just don't know what to do against Nova. It seems like every button hits everything around him and converts into a huge combo. I can't stop him advancing under the cover of Bolts of Balthakk, and once he was in the guy was mixing me up pretty well. As the matches went, if his Nova got the first hit that was pretty much it. He'd either kill my first character or snap in my dark anchor character and put me into a situation where I'd have to eat the mixup, no escape even with a double jump (Gravimetric Pulse, Energy Javelin, Bolts, jab jab jab). I didn't seem to be able to X-Factor guard cancel and throw at all. He would air throw me at about half a pixel distance off the ground, and even though I was trying to throw/tech throws constantly, it was almost always me getting thrown and never doing the throwing.
My Wesker got beat by Bolts, can't really approach or teleport through when that's going. Dante's Weasel Shot was useless because he'd usually start at full screen before airdashing in with Bolts, and Weasel Shot doesn't go that far. Occasionally I'd hit him with gunshot, teleport, call Strider, but most of the time he'd block correctly. And if I get hit once by him it's pretty much over, in spite of him dropping his raw tag Strange combos fairly frequently.
The Magneto team fared a bit better in some respects. I've gotten better at dashing up, flying, plink dashing away while calling assists which helps me keep out of the Bolts/Frank mixups. But mostly it was just the relentless pressure from Nova that I couldn't seem to get away from no matter how hard I tried. And Hawkeye is a really bad matchup for everyone but Vergil on that team. I wasn't able to snap him in so Dark Hawkeye gave me a lot of trouble. On his Frank team, one hit from Nova always gave him level 4 Frank, sometimes level 5. Though I didn't feel like I had that much trouble against Frank since he didn't usually kill my character and force me to eat an incoming mixup. Also, no Jam Session for Frank.
I came away losing 30-7 in the set and not really feeling like I'd learned much. I just felt helpless, with no idea what kind of strategic approach I should take to circumvent his offense.
It's pretty much known that team Nemo bodies Mag/Doom/Vergil. Doom is basically a free character for that team. I think killing Nova is priority so you can try to beat the other characters on the incoming. You would probably have to try out a Zero team against that composition.
XxSlasherMcGirkxX
Member
It's MAHVEL BABY!
Yes Jet's Nova grievances remind me of Nova's bullshit throw. What's the status of that in the patch.
Also speaking of throws is it possible when thrown by Magneto, if you mash you can get out of the frozen lock faster or is it my imagination?
kevo_huevo
Member
i've thought about picking up team nemo, but i really don't like playing dr strange, but then i feel gimped using akuma or taskmaster at anchor.
i always mash whatever super (bionic arm, task's counter, demon, etc) i can if i get caught in magneto's throw. i like to think it makes a difference.
Pretty much all my Nova experience is Dante vs Nova. I'd say about 95% of my experience fighting Nova is with Dante. I'd say it's either even, or slightly in Dante's favor. Nova can't zone against Dante, and he's forced to rushdown(which isn't terrible against Dante, since he generally wants to rush down anyways), but Dante has tools to keep Nova in check in just about every one of his approaches. Just takes a lot of patience, good reads, and great spacing.
Also requires you to not want to throw your controller across the room if you fuck up.
Also requires you to not want to throw your controller across the room if you fuck up.
Against Team Nemo, whenever I use Team Nemo I hate fighting characters like Wolverine who can rush me down quickly, or Vergil where I have to be careful about Bolts calls otherwise I'm stuck with XF3 Spencer (which isn't THAT bad but it's not where I'd want to be).
And of course Zero. Dante/Strider is pretty good at fighting against it too.
And of course Zero. Dante/Strider is pretty good at fighting against it too.
JeTmAn81
Member
I did feel like I should've tried point Dante against Nova but I never ended up doing it. Most of the time Dante was hit with the incoming mixup after Wesker died and Dante is not good when pinned down. If I had played point Dante with some breathing room I probably would've tried to employ Crystal, Drive, Air Play (this one especially denies Nova/Spencer's dash/zip path, I usually try to option select a j.H into it to avoid throws). Teleports would've gotten me out of an overly aggressive Nova's approach if necessary. Maybe next time.
Teach me the match-up, Frantic!
Just a reminder that today is the UMVC3 When's Marvel Weekly tournament featuring character ban ruleset.
I think on their site it said they are banning one character per player although yesterday FChamp was seen practicing with 3 characters banned (and still winning against Ratanna) so who knows what format will be adopted.
I think on their site it said they are banning one character per player although yesterday FChamp was seen practicing with 3 characters banned (and still winning against Ratanna) so who knows what format will be adopted.
Haha, it's kind of hard to put it into words, but I'll give it a shot.
First off, zone with your normals. Use as many of them as you can - s.L, s.M, cr.M, s.H, Stinger, j.M and j.H are all great normals to out range Nova, and using them in the right spots will really force Nova to reconsider how he approaches. I find j.M to be especially good - the speed and range it has means Dante can bop characters from a larger range than most, and he has less to fear of the box dash j.H OS. Additionally, well placed normals can hit Nova's slide, especially something like Dante's own cr.M, you just have to be careful that you use them in the right spots.
After that, Air Play is your friend, especially if Nova is using a non-Bolts assist. It shuts off his air approach, and can hinder his grounded approach. There's a sweet spot for every position Nova can be in(full-screen, mid-screen and nearby shouldn't be used unless you know you're going to be able to get it out before they can punish you), and it takes some practice to get it. Generally, from full screen, you want to be at semi-double jump height(semi as in, when you double jump, you don't let yourself reach its peak) when you use it. If you position it right, it'll hit any air approach from Nova, it'll hit assists when they're called, and you can even time it so it'll go in between Bolts to hit Strange so the second bolt doesn't come out. Additionally, you should try to air-to-air Nova with j.M followed by a delayed Air Play. The delay will allow Air Play to catch forward, neutral and back techs. It'll either hit them(because they're mashing or just holding forward) or they are forced to block which will result in either pressure(with a box dash j.H) or distance to zone. Watch out for Gravimetric Pulse M(with Red Health), as the really smart Nova's will try to snipe Air Play with it(which is like, 1 out of 1000 Novas, but the option is there and should be at the back of your mind so you don't get surprised).
Hammer is also super useful in the matchup(since Nova either wants to box dash j.H/throw you, go under you and mash s.L, or try to slide as you're coming down), but it's hard for me to talk about where to use it. 9/10 times, I use it on instinct. "Oh, he's about to do this here, so Hammer will beat it." It's just a gut feeling that I go on, and it usually works out. After playing a lot of Nova(and I have TONS of Nova experience), you start to pick up on tactics in certain spot that you'll just know when to use it.
Drive/Crystal should only be used when you start noticing Nova approaching from the ground rather than the air. Drive is good for Nova/Bolts, Crystal is generally better in every other Nova matchup. You don't want to use either of them too much at the mid-range, as that's prime position to get hit with a slide, but liberal usage will do good. You should basically use them when you've got them scared of box dashing, but have them scared of getting hit with Dante's sword normals.
Teleport > back box dash j.H when you see them box dash and you're nearing the corner. It's a more or less free escape that'll give you plenty of space to work with. This is an underutilized tactic in general for Dante, and when I use Air Trick, it's generally for this purpose. Just gotta watch out for people who start noticing this fact and try to bait it... but then you can start baiting the bait, and yeah.
When you have them block something relatively close, pressure him as much as you can, but don't be afraid to back off if you're starting to get pushed out and any more offense would be risky. Additionally, when they're getting close to you, don't be afraid to switch from zoning to immediate rushdown. It catches tons of people off guard where they're expecting a defensive action and get an offensive action.
Use s.L to anti-air Nova. It doesn't lead to combo, but it'll reset the situation in Dante's favor. People are often too concerned with anti-airing into a combo and don't utilize the fact s.L resets things in Dante's favor. It's frankly the best normal Dante has for catching Nova, and it's dumb not to use it. Try to s.L > Bold Move into offense or retreat, s.L > Crystal to make sure he doesn't try to immediately recover and hit you, etc, etc.
As far as assists go, can't really comment. I tend to use Low Voltage a lot in the matchup, since it'll catch Nova doing anything on the ground or normal jump height, and it'll hit pretty much every assist he could call if it comes out before getting hit. Vajra tends to sit on the back burner for that matchup. Although, if I was running Doom, I'd probably pick Hidden Missiles against Nova. Enhances Dante's zoning game, and allows him to play a bit more recklessly.
Stinger means Nova can't try to keepaway with Javelins + Gravimetric Pulse H. Reverb Shock can be good in the mid-range to catch Nova about to do something. cr.M can be used to preemptively catch Nova's cr.M or grouned approach. Raw launch ain't a bad anti-air against Nova. Jet Stream can be used to go under box dash j.H if you see it coming. Jam Session can be good, too. Especially if you notice the Nova starts trying to approach from the super jump height(which a lot of the crappy ones will try to do).
There's tons of other things you can do, but they're situational and generally only come into play when the matchup becomes a player vs player matchup rather than a character vs character matchup. Dumb shit like Cold Shower >>> Prop Shredder 'OS' where if they slide they get bopped into combo, and if they try to box dash you go right into Prop Shredder and it will lead into a combo(and be sure to call something like Vajra right after Prop Shredder activates to make it safe!). That sort of thing only comes into play when you really start breaking down the opponent's playstyle, and start getting into their head.
Still finalizing and debating more controversial characters. We're definitely nearing completion though.
If we're still talking Dante, I feel like Spencer is mainly a matchup you wanna rush down with Dante since Dante can nullify Bionic Lancer with Bold Block. Pressure him with grounded normals, try to sneak in a crossup box dash when you've got him locked down by an assist, and continuing using grounded normals when you don't have any lock down. Smart pressure from Dante is very hard for any character to deal with, and in general Spencer's only option against pressure is a hail-mary Bionic Lancer. Combining Dante's pressure with the ability to block Bionic Lancer and he often becomes a sitting duck if you're pressuring him correctly.Thanks for the thorough breakdown, Frantic. It's time to hit the lab and get a feel for the timing of some of that stuff. Now I just need a breakdown of how to fight Spencer+Hawkeye assist
Seriously! Spencer gets in for free and then it's pressure for days T_T
Additionally, Air Play and Hammer can go a long way in keeping Spencer honest. Just gotta pick your spots. Jam Session will punish Spencer's air zips with the arrow assists, or if it's just raw, and you can generally react with it.
JeTmAn81
Member
It seems like the Dante/Nova and Dante/Spencer matchups are pretty similar. Appreciate the Dante tips. A lot of it jives with what I was thinking, so feels nice to be validated by da guru.
I can duck Gimlet? Dafuq
http://youtu.be/kRzaZiyfaIY
http://youtu.be/kRzaZiyfaIY
Karsticles
Member
Slippery Girl:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zHFuc_BUw4
I love this kind of stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zHFuc_BUw4
I love this kind of stuff.
You can raw tag through it, too. I've also dodged it with Firebrand's Demon Charge H.
So Jill is the answer to Morridoom? You just gotta play her 100% no mistakes? Sounds doable.
And ya I always forget u can raw tag outta gimlet, I always get hit by it, now ill just duck!
Now you know how to strange loop!
http://youtu.be/IcdDEc6E9MU
XxSlasherMcGirkxX
Member
Very cool
Karsticles
Member
One thing I like about our Jill changes is that she has an aerial maneuver move now. Something I have thought about is giving every character some kind of aerial maneuver to help against incoming mixups. How would you all feel about going through the characters and ensuring that no character has no options at all? I am thinking an aerial Gamma Charge for Hulk and a double jump for Chris, for example. Haggar would not need one since Double Lariat is so strong.
XxSlasherMcGirkxX
Member
But it seems like some of those characters were based with ground game in mind and some of their only weaknesses are their air game. Plus this would make characters with great air mobility less special.
Karsticles
Member
On the other hand, there are almost no characters without aerial mobility who get used at high level play. Even Vergil has to burn Dimension Slash and XFC it to have comeback potential. It is a deadly position to be in.
It is not as though we are giving every character an air dash. Just something to use so they are not helpless. An example of the problem:
If my opponent plays a team without aerial mobility, Firebrand can unblockable loop that entire team. Ditto for other characters with unblockables. If we give Chris a double jump, it is not going to change him immensely. He will just be less free on the incoming.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Trust me, nobody wants to fight a Hulk with aerial Gamma Charge.
Karsticles
Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";83650773]Trust me, nobody wants to fight a Hulk with aerial Gamma Charge.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
Exactly.
commanderpepper
Member
I don't like fighting team Nemo. I had a lot of trouble with fighting Nova with Bolts behind him. I learned to not stay on the ground after blocking the first bolt from. I just jumped in the air to avoid the Nova ground high/low/grab game. In the air I just had to worry about Nova's air dash H OS or energy javelins if the Nova decided to stay away. I just needed to wait for my time to attack and be patient. If you do anything hasty then Nova can get that one hit which will lead to a kill.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Man I really wanna play Marvel right now. maybe I'll buy a used copy.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";83656497]Man I really wanna play Marvel right now. maybe I'll buy a used copy.[/QUOTE]
I thought you sold your console too?
Marvel is too good. It prevents me from spending too much time on other fighters, since I always have wayyy more fun playing marvel.
I thought you sold your console too?
Marvel is too good. It prevents me from spending too much time on other fighters, since I always have wayyy more fun playing marvel.
If you guys are gonna give Hulk an aerial Gamma Charge then do not give that version a wall bounce. Would be too derpy otherwise.
What about Phoenix Wright? Should that character get air mobility? Or Frank West? Or Nemesis? She Hulk? Ghost Rider?
While I do agree that characters generally need some sort of air mobility in this game and the ones without anything are generally the bad characters... I am not sure if every character needs one like this new Ghost Rider.
What about Phoenix Wright? Should that character get air mobility? Or Frank West? Or Nemesis? She Hulk? Ghost Rider?
While I do agree that characters generally need some sort of air mobility in this game and the ones without anything are generally the bad characters... I am not sure if every character needs one like this new Ghost Rider.
Karsticles
Member
Can't She-Hulk wall jump?
I consider dive kicks to be a form of aerial mobility, so Frank West is fine. Stalling in the air works, too. The other exception is 360 degree attacks and other great ground normals. I think Nemesis is okay on those grounds. That is how I am looking at it.
Karsticles
Member
Let me be more clear.
Nemesis has the aerial rocket and j.H. Between those two he has aerial mobility and something that keeps him threatening on the incoming. Hulk only has one of these.
We should enable wall jumps on incoming. They are coming from the wall, after all.
Well Hulk can stall in the air with his j.H. And honestly neither really qualifies as "air mobility" because you aren't moving or changing your trajectory. By that definition Haggar has air mobility because he has Pipe and air command grab to stall himself in the air.
No to wall jumps on incoming please.
No to wall jumps on incoming please.
Btw here's my summary of yesterday's character ban tournament:
Overall it was pretty fun and engaging... everyone there seemed to have a lot of fun and grand finals were pretty amazing. Only problem with the tournament was that there weren't a lot of people in attendance and there was A LOT of sloppy play. Even one character banned made a huge impact on player performance. It essentially exposed the fact that so many players rely on a single character to do almost all the work. FChamp said it was a great exercise to promote people getting better with their other 2 characters and not be so reliant on Dark Vergils.
Overall it was pretty fun and engaging... everyone there seemed to have a lot of fun and grand finals were pretty amazing. Only problem with the tournament was that there weren't a lot of people in attendance and there was A LOT of sloppy play. Even one character banned made a huge impact on player performance. It essentially exposed the fact that so many players rely on a single character to do almost all the work. FChamp said it was a great exercise to promote people getting better with their other 2 characters and not be so reliant on Dark Vergils.
XxSlasherMcGirkxX
Member
Karst if you want everybody to be less free on incoming just give all of the air handicaped players an air Veiwtiful dodge. At least then it wouldn't change up their gameplay too much.
Karsticles
Member
Great summary Dahbomb. Thank you.
Why no wall jump on incoming?
Why no wall jump on incoming?
Way too good!
It's not a balance issue, it's a mechanical issue. The person coming in is already moving forward which is impossible to wall jump with. This means that the trajectory of incoming has to be altered so that they fall directly down. Honestly I asked for an adjustment in incoming fall trajectory as soon as this patch was started because it would cut back on the ambiguous cross ups a ton.
MiniBossBattle
Member
Thanks for the write-up Dahbomb. I feel like Drew's combos would have been hindered if he didn't have Strider but I imagine Drew's Viper with Doom assist would be OP.
XxSlasherMcGirkxX
Member
Okay what if you gave every character a double jump (only on incoming) and a fast fall (holding down to drop to the ground faster on incoming). This would give characters ways to avoid helpless situations but at the same time still not handicap the opponent in preforming potential setups.
I think he would rather just use Jam Session. I am pretty sure he has a pocket Dante.
Because it marginalizes those who already have a double jump and fast fall move (like a Helm Breaker). I mean why not just give everyone an air dash on incoming? Or give them the ability to side switch.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I'm borrowing a friend's PS3 until she gets a TV for her new apartment.
Karsticles
Member
Agreed on universal fastfalls and double jumps being the wrong direction. Why don't we just allow wall jumps off of a forward jump?
Because it doesn't make sense intuitively. You have to change the properties of jumps and wall jump for it to work even then it would look weird as hell. Best to just leave it alone.
Besides you are giving Vergil another way to escape incoming. You don't want that, even Capcom knew not to give that character good incoming options.
Besides you are giving Vergil another way to escape incoming. You don't want that, even Capcom knew not to give that character good incoming options.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I was thinking about allowing wall jumps for incoming characters the other day.
I'll hold you to it, because I'm back on my apartment internets
The Mango Sentinel
Member
I just accept the fact that some characters just die on incoming. That's why I never play Chris second, haha.
Why the hell are rapid seismos so difficult in this game but I can do them in SF4 no problem at all. It's the only thing that keeps me from regularly playing Viper in Marvel.
Why the hell are rapid seismos so difficult in this game but I can do them in SF4 no problem at all. It's the only thing that keeps me from regularly playing Viper in Marvel.