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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT4| Nothing Stops This Patch!

It's super cheesy though and with better assists to use at super jump height she would exploit the ability more. Like Float around call Jam Session, push back opponent, repeat. Or something like Haggar, there is no way a Wolverine is going to try to challenge that.

Of course if you are just Floating around and spamming the Morrigan assist like crazy it will get punished eventually but with proper use of flight, air dashes you can stay slippery and keep calling the assist while extending your flight time.

Hell even being to call an assist once during super jump height is pretty big in this game. Would give you an instant advantage over another character who is at super jump height.
I don't entirely disagree with you, but I ask this: how much crazier is superjump into float than jump, air dash up, fly, and then tridash around the screen while calling an assist? Superjump into float is undoubtedly better, but is it absurdly better?
 

Dahbomb

Member
I don't entirely disagree with you, but I ask this: how much crazier is superjump into float than jump, air dash up, fly, and then tridash around the screen while calling an assist? Superjump into float is undoubtedly better, but is it absurdly better?
I wouldn't say its absurdly better but its definitely better. Think of all those actions you are doing versus just holding Up. And what you listed Storm can already do that (add in a few Lightning Attacks too for even more air height).

As long as the assists calls are limited during super jump Float I am fine.

Also on Dante, for the Grapple change I was mostly talking about the nerf on hit not on whiff. I think I should've worded better, there should be more recovery on the post grapple throw animation.

On Strider, if you want to give him cancelable Formations then might as well go all the way and make all ground Specials cancelable into Formation B (the projectile). It would be like Zero's Buster cancel level of "WOAH!"
 

Dahbomb

Member
Well Strider was already voted Y for everyone. :p

I am fine with the change though. It's not like they are big zoning tools anyway... they have such low durability that they aren't going to win any fireball wars. They might be negated by regular attacks but IIRC the absorbed hit wouldn't hit Strider so he can walk behind them and it will act like one hit of super armor. I may be wrong on this so correct me if I am.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Man just as we were talking about that Phoenix overhead Champs OCVs Apologyman's team with regular Jean and opened him up twice with that overhead. :S
 

Dahbomb

Member
Off topic from this patch talk but right now FChamp is untouchable on the West Coast. His play is too far ahead of everyone there. He makes players like Neo, Aplogyman, Chris Schmidt, Drew Grimey look like scrubs.

God damn at that final whiff punish Helm Breaker with Slide into diagonal TK Overdrive.

As the game matures the line between gods and mortals is becoming more and more apparent. In fact the play between top level Marvel and high tier Marvel is also getting apparent. FChamp is whiff punishing people and reading people like a book similar to Daigo dismantling Infiltration... ChrisG is doing the same on the EC as well.

This might be the strongest rivalry in this game ever.
 

Zissou

Member
Give me a bit to parse the posts made today and cast me re-votes.

I went to a monthly tournament today and got bodied my first match by this Chris player, Tanukik. I did really well in casuals, but I was salty I lost so quickly (and so badly!). I also realized I have no idea how to fight Hawkeye+missiles. Frantic, what do I do with Dante/Strider against that shit!? (I already know Doom is worthless against him)
 

Frantic

Member
I went to a monthly tournament today and got bodied my first match by this Chris player, Tanukik. I did really well in casuals, but I was salty I lost so quickly (and so badly!). I also realized I have no idea how to fight Hawkeye+missiles. Frantic, what do I do with Dante/Strider against that shit!? (I already know Doom is worthless against him)
It's been a while since I played a really good Hawkeye, but I've always just walked forward and badgered him with Dante's normals (Stinger especially), with the occasional Reverb Shock, Jam Session, and Hammer thrown into the mix. Sounds kinda simple, but it's basically just slowly edging your way in until you can just start pressuring Hawkeye. You can pretty much just stay on the ground and Hawkeye has jack all he can do just because Dante will cover a ton of distance when he does anything, has Stinger that goes through projectiles(and if he jumps, you can Stinger as he's coming down and Hawkeye doesn't have a whole lot he can do about it since his jump is so floaty), can punish any of his attempts at gaining space(random Gimlet gets Bold Blocked/Devil Triggered, random Kiss of Fire gets teleported on, slide gets Hammered, etc), can easily punish his attempts at getting away(he only has superjump forward, and that'll get Jam Sessioned to force him back down), and just doesn't have any real answer to Dante's pressure game. As long as you start the game off with Dante, you can walk forward and pressure Hawkeye before he can hope to call Missiles.

I dunno, I can't think of much.
 

Zissou

Member
It's been a while since I played a really good Hawkeye, but I've always just walked forward and badgered him with Dante's normals (Stinger especially), with the occasional Reverb Shock, Jam Session, and Hammer thrown into the mix. Sounds kinda simple, but it's basically just slowly edging your way in until you can just start pressuring Hawkeye. You can pretty much just stay on the ground and Hawkeye has jack all he can do just because Dante will cover a ton of distance when he does anything, has Stinger that goes through projectiles(and if he jumps, you can Stinger as he's coming down and Hawkeye doesn't have a whole lot he can do about it since his jump is so floaty), can punish any of his attempts at gaining space(random Gimlet gets Bold Blocked/Devil Triggered, random Kiss of Fire gets teleported on, slide gets Hammered, etc), can easily punish his attempts at getting away(he only has superjump forward, and that'll get Jam Sessioned to force him back down), and just doesn't have any real answer to Dante's pressure game. As long as you start the game off with Dante, you can walk forward and pressure Hawkeye before he can hope to call Missiles.

I dunno, I can't think of much.

I made the mistake of starting the match with Doom then :(

I was playing against a guy using Zero/Doom/Hawkeye. I would take out his Zero pretty consistently with my normal Doom/Dante/Strider team, but if he got Hawkeye in backed by missiles, it was tough to keep my team from being slowly whittled down. I'll see what I can do starting Dante next time. Thanks for the advice!
 

Frantic

Member
I was playing against a guy using Zero/Doom/Hawkeye. I would take out his Zero pretty consistently with my normal Doom/Dante/Strider team, but if he got Hawkeye in backed by missiles, it was tough to keep my team from being slowly whittled down. I'll see what I can do starting Dante next time. Thanks for the advice!
If it's like that, I'd just stick with Doom(especially if you were doing well against Zero) and DHC Dante in if he gets Hawkeye in. Dante + Plasma Beam would take care of Hawkeye pretty decently, even if he's already somewhat started. All you gotta do is snipe Missiles once with Plasma Beam, and then you can get in fairly easily to pressure him.

I had thought you were playing against a Hawkeye point, hence my suggestion.
 

Zissou

Member
If it's like that, I'd just stick with Doom(especially if you were doing well against Zero) and DHC Dante in if he gets Hawkeye in. Dante + Plasma Beam would take care of Hawkeye pretty decently, even if he's already somewhat started. All you gotta do is snipe Missiles once with Plasma Beam, and then you can get in fairly easily to pressure him.

I had thought you were playing against a Hawkeye point, hence my suggestion.

Sorry, should've been more clear. The fight against Zero certainly wasn't easy- by the time I killed him, both Dante and Doom were bleeding more often than not and I didn't have tons of meter to work with. I should have snapped Doom, in retrospect.
 

Frantic

Member
I should have snapped Doom, in retrospect.
It depends. If you actually manage to get a hit on Zero to be able to snap Doom in, it'd best to kill the lil' bastard while you can.

It wouldn't hurt to try Dante on point, just cuz Dante vs Zero is close to even(especially if Zero doesn't have Jam Session). My suggestion is to walk forward with no fear, and learn plink throw/dash OS. It's incredibly useful for throw OS at the start of the round, but I don't really see anyone actually use it.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I just realized this change is redundant:

+Viewtiful Uppercut M (assist) now allows for full combos on crossover counter.

We already changed the crossover counters in system mechanics to allow for actions after the CC immediately.

Also where are we at with the Dante Grapple change? 3 frame additional recovery on just the grapple grab animation... not the whole move on whiff/block.

On Storm, can only call assist once during super jump Float, has to touch the ground to call assist again.

On Ryu, the powered up Hadoken should be 8 durability points so that there is still utility for the charged fireball (QCF+S) which is now 10 durability points. If the powered up Hadoken was 10 durability points no one would use the charged fireball in the neutral when they are powered up... unless you want to give the charged fireball while powered up be like 15 durability points for consistency.

On Spider Man, the change listed does not deal with long Web Throw loops at the end of combos with assists when scaling is already high. We can't fix that without messing up his combos or just implementing raw damage nerf on Web THrow.. best thing we can do is add hit stun acceleration on cr.M so that hit stun accumulates faster if he starts doing Web Throw loops at the start of combos.

On Thor I just realized something... if non charged versions of Mighty Strike are getting one hit of super armor and we gave all other charged moves characters either 2 points of armor (Super Skrull) or hyper armor (Hulk)... shouldn't Thor also get 2 points of armor on a charged Mighty Strike? Something to think about.


Yes I know we all voted Yes on these characters... I am going through the characters again as part of the final revision since all characters are fair game now.
 

Frantic

Member
Also where are we at with the Dante Grapple change? 3 frame additional recovery on just the grapple grab animation... not the whole move on whiff/block.
I don't think 3 frames of additional recovery would actually remove the unblockable. It'd probably make it slightly harder to do, but it wouldn't actually remove it. You'd probably have to add something like 8-10 more frames of recovery to remove it, and then the move would become completely useless since you wouldn't be able to confirm off it anymore.

Also, you bringing up Viewtiful Joe made me remember something I was thinking about before. Does the "Groovy Uppercut M is now +10 on hit." change also apply to on block? Are we adjusting the recovery of the move, or just hitstun? Because I feel like we should make it safer on block, since Joe doesn't have the safest of blockstrings. Reducing the recovery by two would at least mean he could tech an air throw after a blocked Groovy Uppercut M instead of being free to it.
 

Dahbomb

Member
We are not trying to remove the unblockable... we are trying to provide a window where you can raw tag to escape the set up. If Dante baits that then it's fine... it would essentially be a "guess". As long as the unblockable isn't guaranteed.
 
Re: armor.

Skrull has to charge his moves for a very long time. That is why we gave them 2 hits of armor. Hulk got hyper armor as a special tool just for him. Thor has much better mobility and a more varied toolset than Hulk.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Re: armor.

Skrull has to charge his moves for a very long time. That is why we gave them 2 hits of armor. Hulk got hyper armor as a special tool just for him. Thor has much better mobility and a more varied toolset than Hulk.
You have to charge Mighty Strike too. And I am not asking for hyper armor on fully charged Mighty Strike but 2 points. I don't think it will change much balance wise but in terms of uniformity it makes more sense.

Also Cap's Charging Star as an assist should cause Rapid Slash like push back. Mostly because Cap still ain't that good in this patch but I couldn't think of ways to improve him. IMO without at least a standing overhead and some better mobility and/or zoning tools he is vanilla as hell even more than Ryu now. No point in picking Cap over Task unless people want to try to bank on yolo Charging Stars all day.
 
Fully charged mighty strike is already soft knockdown for combos and if the uncharged version has armor then ain't nobody gonna charge that shit in the neutral.
 

Frantic

Member
We are not trying to remove the unblockable... we are trying to provide a window where you can raw tag to escape the set up. If Dante baits that then it's fine... it would essentially be a "guess". As long as the unblockable isn't guaranteed.
To make sure the unblockable isn't guaranteed... you'd have to remove the unblockable. The basic method of landing the unblockable naturally avoids the raw tag since it causes a crossup. In fact, Dante generally has to be on the ground to be hit by the raw tag(except for a few characters who are tagging in like Sentinel), so all you'd be doing is just be forcing Dante to be tighter with his setup. The tighter timing means he'd be avoiding the raw tag easier, so it wouldn't actually solve anything.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";85174645]Fully charged mighty strike is already soft knockdown for combos and if the uncharged version has armor then ain't nobody gonna charge that shit in the neutral.[/QUOTE]Does the uncharged version destroy projectiles? If it does, then yeah, there'd be very little incentive to use the charged version over the non-charged version in neutral.
 

JeTmAn81

Member
Did Dante's ground throw ever get discussed? I...I think Dante should get to combo off a ground throw solo, even if it's the cost of X-Factor.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Did Dante's ground throw ever get discussed? I...I think Dante should get to combo off a ground throw solo, even if it's the cost of X-Factor.
No way Dante has gotten enough buffs already. Plenty of characters still can't do anything from ground throw.

Yeah I don't know how to "fix" Grapple aside from the suggested recovery increase on hit and disabling assists for a short time.
 

smurfx

get some go again
I made the mistake of starting the match with Doom then :(

I was playing against a guy using Zero/Doom/Hawkeye. I would take out his Zero pretty consistently with my normal Doom/Dante/Strider team, but if he got Hawkeye in backed by missiles, it was tough to keep my team from being slowly whittled down. I'll see what I can do starting Dante next time. Thanks for the advice!
i can't imagine getting zoned out by a hawkeye/missles player. its pretty easy to rush down hawkeyes if they don't have horizontal projectiles covering them.
 

JeTmAn81

Member
Hope you get your patch. You've been at this awhile.

Even if there is a patch done by Capcom, odds are slim that it would at all resemble the final GAF notes.

No way Dante has gotten enough buffs already. Plenty of characters still can't do anything from ground throw.

I'm not sure what other buffs he's getting, but Dante is just about unique when it comes to the uselessness of his ground throw. You look over the character list and almost every character can do something off a ground throw, or if they can't they have a command grab to compensate (Wesker, Spencer). Hulk gets nothing because it would make s.H too powerful, though certain teams actually let him THC into a combo off a ground throw.
 
Haven't played in ages, got stomped at work 6-3. So many dropped Doom combos (hit neutral jH instead of forward H or miss dash down after air S to kick me back almost full screen).
 

Zissou

Member
i can't imagine getting zoned out by a hawkeye/missles player. its pretty easy to rush down hawkeyes if they don't have horizontal projectiles covering them.

How so? Nothing I have with Dante or Doom has fast enough start-up to contend Hawkeye's jump, falling triple arrow, st.H xx whatever spam with frequent missiles assist calls added in. I probably could've done better, but even getting into range to threaten with stinger was difficult. Maybe I just need to normal jump forward while blocking over and over again. Any airdash and I eat a gimlet, and there is never a period where there was a window to teleport with Dante. I guess I need to have a training mode dummy recorded to emulate what the guy was doing and try different approaches. My only experience fighting Hawkeye is against solo anchor Hawkeye so I've never learned the match-up against him when assisted.
 

Zissou

Member
Where I am on my votes:

Felicia - Y- I decided I'm ok with special cancellable C&M.

Firebrand - still waiting on non-unblockable dash-cancellable fireball version to be written up in the change list post.

Frank- still N. I still think lvl4/5 Frank is a problem and we're making it even easier for him to level up with the bottoms up buff. I've suggested nerfing paddle saw hitboxes and/or tools of destruction invincibility (I'd much prefer the paddle saw nerf), as well as just making it take more hits to level him up, but I've been shot down every time. Maybe we could make it so you can't gain more than two levels in a single combo or something? One of the things that bothers me about Frank is how easy it is to level him up vs. how powerful he is at 4+. He's too good for too little effort, so if nobody wants to nerf level 4/5 Frank, and nobody wants to make it take more hits to achieve since that would limit his synergy to a handful of pairings, we need to find some other way to make players earn him.

GR - After more thought, I'd like to change my vote to Y.

Jill - N, still against forced neutral tech (I know this is presently being discussed).

Magneto - What's the point of his launcher nerf again?

MODOK - N, still against big barrier buff.

Morrigan - N, against aerial command grab.

RR - Y, I'm happy with the new version of him.

Sent - Y

Spencer - Y

Spidey - I need to read everybody's posts about him and see where I stand.

SS - N, against any brutal pile dunker change. Fuck that YOLO move.

Thor - with the proposed mighty spark change, do you mean it will hit lower only near him? Also, why is mighty speech assist still mentioned when it has been removed?

Trish - Y

Joe - N, Still thinking about how to make charged voomerang spam less derpy.

Zero - Y
 

Dahbomb

Member
Frank- still N. I still think lvl4/5 Frank is a problem and we're making it even easier for him to level up with the bottoms up buff. I've suggested nerfing paddle saw hitboxes and/or tools of destruction invincibility (I'd much prefer the paddle saw nerf), as well as just making it take more hits to level him up, but I've been shot down every time. Maybe we could make it so you can't gain more than two levels in a single combo or something? One of the things that bothers me about Frank is how easy it is to level him up vs. how powerful he is at 4+. He's too good for too little effort, so if nobody wants to nerf level 4/5 Frank, and nobody wants to make it take more hits to achieve since that would limit his synergy to a handful of pairings, we need to find some other way to make players earn him.
We can remove the Bottoms Up buff if you want. Halving of his chip on block from normals is a pretty substantial nerf and Frank West LVL1 still sucks ass. Most characters got buffed substantially in terms of zoning meaning more characters will be able to compete against him.

The "require at least two combos to level up Frank" would make him garbage. You are making your entire team around having access to that one combo that gets Frank leveled up... that is where the sacrifice comes in. Because of this the amount of optimized teams that Frank has are very limited and thus is always considered a handicap on the team. You are forced to have Dante on the team plus another character that can combo into Frank (like Zero, Tron, Nova, Skrull).

still waiting on non-unblockable dash-cancellable fireball version to be written up in the change list post.
It's already in there:


Firebrand:
+Wall cling fireballs no longer leave Firebrand prone until landing.
+Hell Spitfire H startup reduced to 20; aerial version no longer leaves Firebrand prone until landing; only one allowed on the screen at a time - the fire will disappear as soon as Firebrand enters startup frames for a second Hell Spitfire H.
+Luminous Body (air) no longer automatically puts Firebrand in Flight mode unless you hold S during the cinematic screen.
+Chaos Tide is now a level 2; all inputs now cause the helper to perform his H attack; the summoned helper no longer builds meter.
+Firebrand now recovers significantly faster from all throw animations.
+qcb.S (air) now causes Firebrand to rise into the air further like Hell’s Elevator L; no higher than maximum superjump height.
+j.L hitstun increased slightly; can now link into Bon Voyage without Luminous Body.
+Devil’s Claw startup reduced to 10 frames.
+/- Demon Charge (all versions) now air OK; Demon Charge H can no longer be charged; Demon Charge H hitstun increased significantly.
+Hell Spitfire (all versions) now cancelable into Hell Dive (all versions) and Hell's Elevator (all versions).

Assists: Hell Spitfire L, Hell Spitfire H, Demon Charge M
 
Where I am on my votes:

Felicia - Y- I decided I'm ok with special cancellable C&M.
Now we need Frantic, and she's done.

Firebrand - still waiting on non-unblockable dash-cancellable fireball version to be written up in the change list post.
Well first, do you want to go only with an unblockable version?

Frank- still N. I still think lvl4/5 Frank is a problem and we're making it even easier for him to level up with the bottoms up buff. I've suggested nerfing paddle saw hitboxes and/or tools of destruction invincibility (I'd much prefer the paddle saw nerf), as well as just making it take more hits to level him up, but I've been shot down every time. Maybe we could make it so you can't gain more than two levels in a single combo or something? One of the things that bothers me about Frank is how easy it is to level him up vs. how powerful he is at 4+. He's too good for too little effort, so if nobody wants to nerf level 4/5 Frank, and nobody wants to make it take more hits to achieve since that would limit his synergy to a handful of pairings, we need to find some other way to make players earn him.
How about we just nerf level 4 frank a bit? I like the idea of nerfing his hyper invincibility.

GR - After more thought, I'd like to change my vote to Y.
Done.

Jill - N, still against forced neutral tech (I know this is presently being discussed).
Why?

Magneto - What's the point of his launcher nerf again?
Nerfing ambiguous crossunders.

MODOK - N, still against big barrier buff.
Would you be a Y if it were removed?

Morrigan - N, against aerial command grab.
FFS, seriously?

RR - Y, I'm happy with the new version of him.

Sent - Y
Done

Spencer - Y
Just need Frantic now.

Spidey - I need to read everybody's posts about him and see where I stand.
Fair enough.

SS - N, against any brutal pile dunker change. Fuck that YOLO move.
I think you are mixing up Brutal Pile Dunker and Meteor Smash.

Thor - with the proposed mighty spark change, do you mean it will hit lower only near him? Also, why is mighty speech assist still mentioned when it has been removed?
I thought I changed the assist...it's changed in my notes on my CPU.

Yes, I mean Mighty Spark will hit lower only near him. Just the spark ball that comes up, so he has safe blockstrings.

Edit: Mighty Speech is not in the notes - what are you referring to?

Trish - Y
K.

Joe - N, Still thinking about how to make charged voomerang spam less derpy.
I think the graphic change is enough.


K.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Going from 30% chip on his normals to 15% chip on normals in a game that already has 20% health boost is a substantial nerf to LVL4 and LVL5 Frank.

Additional nerfs would make LVL4 Frank not really worth getting especially in a game where there are other characters who can also chip on block.

Also Mighty Speech is still in the notes.

Thor:
+Mighty Spark startup hitbox extended downward more; now safe for blockstrings against crouching characters.
+Mighty Smash M assist causes a hard knockdown after the ground bounce; armored from frames 36-63; now ground bounces against Amaterasu.
+Mighty Smash L super armor from frames 6-20.
+Flight Startup reduced to 20 frames; fly cancel is 1 frame.
+s.H has super armor from frames 6-20.
+s.L startup reduced to 6 frames.
+Startup on all versions of Mighty Strike reduced to 15-25 (charged) frames, have super armor from frames 12-30 regardless of charging.
+Mighty Thunder now causes pushback equivalent to Magnetic Shockwave; startup decreased to 10+4.
+Air throws now cause enough knockdown to ensure Mighty Thunder can always connect afterward.
+Mighty Speech (assist) generates 15 meter per frame.
+Mighty Punish range increased slightly.

Assists: Mighty Spark M, Mighty Smash M, Strike L
 

Zissou

Member
Sorry, I didn't read the Firebrand changes carefully enough. I'm on board the no unblockables wagon now. In the cases where we've removed them, like RR and Task, we've replaced them with buffed versions of the moves while addressing the characters' weaknesses simultaneously, which I like as a general approach. I say we toss out Firebrand's completely, buff him appropriately (with the cancellable fireballs, as described), and make it very clear in the patch notes that the buff is specifically predicated on his unblockable being removed. It's for this same reason that I think forced neutral techs are bad, and we should figure some other way to make Jill's throws scary and make Dante's grapple a useful neutral move. Hell, in Jill's case, you could just make her airthrow cause a forced neutral tech- that'd solve her throw issue w/o giving her what could be functionally an infinite, looping unblockables into each other.

For Frank, a tools of destruction invincibility nerf would give a select few characters w/ invincible hypers a way to random him out, but for many more characters, the match-up would be unchanged. @Dahbomb- the health boost helps Frank as well: it gives Frank's escort character a much better chance of surviving a combo and getting multiple chances to level up Frank. I also think the ease of getting Frank is being underestimated. Practically anybody can do it off of a TAC as long as you have an assist that lets you take two pictures. What if we did the max of two levels gained per combo thing, but substantially buffed level 3 Frank or something? Nobody has addressed the risk/reward imbalance here- a Phoenix player has to sacrifice an assist and forego meter usage. The Frank player sacrifices nothing and gets jesus Frank off their first clean hit.

For MODOK, I would vote yes if the big barrier buff was removed.

I honestly think Morrigan is one of the hardest characters to balance. We have to take into account system changes, the hidden missiles nerf, the addition of other AA assists she can use or that can be used against her, and the fact that Chris G is the only player that is really capable of making top 8 at a major with her, which makes it difficult to tease apart the strength of the character and the strength of the player. Maybe we should save her for last.

Skrull- brutal pile dunker is his air d.H move right? That move is dumb- he should have to use assists to make it safe, IMO.
 
Everyone, please vote on this version of Firebrand:

Firebrand:
+Wall cling fireballs no longer leave Firebrand prone until landing.
+Hell Spitfire H startup reduced to 20; aerial version no longer leaves Firebrand prone until landing; only one allowed on the screen at a time - the fire will disappear as soon as Firebrand enters startup frames for a second Hell Spitfire H.
+Luminous Body (air) no longer automatically puts Firebrand in Flight mode unless you hold S during the cinematic screen.
+Chaos Tide is now a level 2; all inputs now cause the helper to perform his H attack; the summoned helper no longer builds meter.
+Firebrand now recovers significantly faster from all throw animations.
+qcb.S (air) now causes Firebrand to rise into the air further like Hell’s Elevator L; no higher than maximum superjump height.
+j.L hitstun increased slightly; can now link into Bon Voyage without Luminous Body.
+Devil’s Claw startup reduced to 10 frames.
+/- Demon Charge (all versions) now air OK; Demon Charge H can no longer be charged; Demon Charge H hitstun increased significantly.
+Hell Spitfire (all versions) now cancelable into Hell Dive (all versions) and Hell's Elevator (all versions).

Assists: Hell Spitfire L, Hell Spitfire H, Demon Charge M

And this version of MODOK:

M.O.D.O.K.:
*M.O.D.O.K. automatically powers his assists up through levels of understanding when able to.
+Psionic Blaster vertical hitbox slightly extended downward.
+Hyper Psionic Blaster damage reworked; scaling with levels of understanding below:
0: 8,000 X 34 (177,100)
1: 8,000 X 40 (201,100)
2: 8,000 X 50 (241,100)
3: 8,000 X 58 (273,100)
4: 8,000 X 68 (313,100)
5: 8,000 X 76 (345,100)
6: 8,000 X 85 (381,100)
7: 8,000 X 100 (441,100)
+c.L hitbox now hits crouching characters near M.O.D.O.K.
+Using specials in the air no longer reduces the number of hits Hyper Battering Ram will be capable of.
+Hyper Psionic Blaster’s beam durability is now consistent across all levels of understanding.
+Untechable time on forward air throw increased slightly.
+Killer Illumination startup changed to 18+0.
-c.M no longer hits low.

Assists: Psionic Blast M, Balloon Bomb H, Barrier


Sorry, I didn't read the Firebrand changes carefully enough. I'm on board the no unblockables wagon now. In the cases where we've removed them, like RR and Task, we've replaced them with buffed versions of the moves while addressing the characters' weaknesses simultaneously, which I like as a general approach. I say we toss out Firebrand's completely, buff him appropriately (with the cancellable fireballs, as described), and make it very clear in the patch notes that the buff is specifically predicated on his unblockable being removed. It's for this same reason that I think forced neutral techs are bad, and we should figure some other way to make Jill's throws scary and make Dante's grapple a useful neutral move. Hell, in Jill's case, you could just make her airthrow cause a forced neutral tech- that'd solve her throw issue w/o giving her what could be functionally an infinite, looping unblockables into each other.
We want to give that command throw some purpose, though.

For Frank, a tools of destruction invincibility nerf would give a select few characters w/ invincible hypers a way to random him out, but for many more characters, the match-up would be unchanged. @Dahbomb- the health boost helps Frank as well: it gives Frank's escort character a much better chance of surviving a combo and getting multiple chances to level up Frank. I also think the ease of getting Frank is being underestimated. Practically anybody can do it off of a TAC as long as you have an assist that lets you take two pictures. What if we did the max of two levels gained per combo thing, but substantially buffed level 3 Frank or something? Nobody has addressed the risk/reward imbalance here- a Phoenix player has to sacrifice an assist and forego meter usage. The Frank player sacrifices nothing and gets jesus Frank off their first clean hit.
I want a suggestion from you on this, though.

For MODOK, I would vote yes if the big barrier buff was removed.
K.

I honestly think Morrigan is one of the hardest characters to balance. We have to take into account system changes, the hidden missiles nerf, the addition of other AA assists she can use or that can be used against her, and the fact that Chris G is the only player that is really capable of making top 8 at a major with her, which makes it difficult to tease apart the strength of the character and the strength of the player. Maybe we should save her for last.
She has clear weaknesses to chicken blocking, though.

Skrull- brutal pile dunker is his air d.H move right? That move is dumb- he should have to use assists to make it safe, IMO.
What?! Skrull has an air dash, and he can only do two things out of it. d.H, and j.S (charged). Neither is safe. I don't get how the move is YOLO when you can always see it coming.

Skrull also pretty much has no neutral game. He has serious problems creating momentum in the neutral for himself, which is why no one uses him aside from XF3 gimmicks at high level play.
 
We could have fallen prey only cause a forced neutral tech if a throw preceded it.
Jill is the only reset-based character who cannot get combos off of throws. I think it makes sense to give her good neutral resets to make up for that.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";85270138]Is Balloon Bomb H the same one as before?[/QUOTE]
It is the M version in the current game. H version has slight tracking.
 
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";85271710]I wonder if that's really better. Could fuck up setups from people that actually use the assist.[/QUOTE]
The only person who uses it is Rubecks, and any downsides to swapping to the H version for him are made up by it becoming more worthwhile in general and the S version becoming available. Swapped controls mid-combo? So nasty!
 

Dahbomb

Member
Skrull has no neutral game and he will never have one unless he gets completely remade. We gave him better armored moves and that's about all we could do in the neutral department aside from giving him a ton of safer moves (which we also did but not as much). He is still going to be a read based character.. he reads you right with the proper armor move or the command grab he wins otherwise he loses.

Yes on both MODOK and Firebrand.

Practically anybody can do it off of a TAC as long as you have an assist that lets you take two pictures. What if we did the max of two levels gained per combo thing, but substantially buffed level 3 Frank or something?
Honestly that just depends on which TAC system is being implemented. If it's the B TAC system implemented where it's just the current one but with proper scaling and more window provided to break TACs... then that's a substantial nerf to Frank.

The two levels gained per combo is still dumb... you are asking for a rework on the character just so his lower levels are better but his ultimate form is harder to get.

The Frank player sacrifices nothing and gets jesus Frank off their first clean hit.
He does sacrifice something.. he is sacrificing team synergy and partners for that one hit combo that can get him leveled up. And Phoenix has two lives with both lives attached to good characters... never forget that when you are assessing risk/reward ratio. Frank LVL1 is still garbage so him being on the team is still a substantial risk.
 
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